Everyone needs a pastor. A visit to The Pastor's Study brings biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and help from those with proven experience in Christian service. We want you to be part of the program during the 30 minutes ahead. To visit The Pastor's Study today, text your question at 516-367-0391. Again, that's 516-367-0391. Now welcome to today's visit to The Pastor's Study with Pastor Bill Shishko. And I am your host, Pastor Bill Shishko. We invite your calls. If you're listening on Saturday, the live call-in number is 631-955-4222. 5-4-0-0, jot it down, 6-3-1-9-5-5, 5-4-0-0 for live call-ins, Saturday only, any time of the week, you can text your questions, 516-367-0391. Well, there's been a lot of controversy surrounding REVOICE, a conference held in St. Louis, Missouri, in July 2018, ostensibly for the purpose of increasing understanding of the LGBT community by evangelical Christians. And a follow-up to that conference is scheduled for June of 2019. The homepage of the REVOICE 19 website greets visitors with what appears to be the Revoice motto, fostering peace, honoring dignity, preserving faith. Its mission is, quote, to support and encourage gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians, as well as those who love them, so that all in the church might be empowered to live in gospel unity while observing the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality, end quote. Its vision and the reason Revoice exists is, again I'm quoting, because we want to see gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted people who adhere to historic Christian teaching about marriage and sexual expression flourish in their local faith communities. We envision a unified church where these individuals can be transparent with their faith communities about their orientation and experience, where local churches utilize and celebrate the unique opportunities that lifelong celibate people have to serve others, where Christian leaders boast about the faith of people who are living sacrificial obedience for the sake of the kingdom, and where all people, regardless of their orientation or experience, are welcomed into the lives of families, so that all can experience the joys, benefits, and responsibilities of kinship." End of quote from the Revoice website. And those behind Revoice make it clear that they believe that much evangelical ministry to the LGBT community has done more harm than good, especially when it calls the pursuit of orientation change. Its statement on public posture and Christian witness includes this affirmation regarding doctrinal practice and culture, and again I quote, evangelical Christian culture has been largely shaped by ex-gay theology. and a variety of ministries which promote the pursuit of orientation change as a chief measure of sanctification for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians. Thousands of men and women have suffered great spiritual harm and continue to live with deep emotional scars as a result of ministries focused on orientation change. Moreover, Christians have often disregarded the inherent dignity of LGBTQ plus people as fellow image bearers of God, treating them more as political enemies than as people whom Jesus calls his church to love. Many LGBTQ-plus people long to hear Christian leaders apologize for these unbiblical and damaging approaches to ministry, discipleship, and public life. We, say the Revoice leadership, lament this." Well, that's from the official statement published by Revoice. These are, of course, serious charges to level against evangelicals and their ministries to people who identify as LGBTQ. But the fact that the 2018 Revoice conference was hosted by Memorial Presbyterian Church in St. Louis, Missouri, a congregation of the doctrinally conservative Presbyterian Church in America, has raised more than a few eyebrows. While all are in agreement, or they ought to be, that Christian churches should be welcoming of all, There's clearly disagreement about what the Word of God says about sin and repentance in relation to issues of sexuality and gender identity. In a less than subtle response to Revoice and its conference, there's now God's voice at its conference. The goal of God's Voice is to, quote, bring biblical clarity to the recent confusion surrounding the issues of revoiced sexuality and LGBTQ plus Christians. God's Voice will present a biblical response to the queering of the Church of Jesus Christ in an effort to teach, strengthen, and encourage believers and Christian leaders across all denominations to stand on the inerrant, unchanging, and life-transforming power of the Word of God." And the statement concludes with, what the church needs now is God's voice, end of quote. And so there you have it. Revoice and God's voice, two sides in the current discussions about the Bible, sexuality, gender, sin, repentance, and grace. My guest on today's visit to the Pastors Study is one of the conference speakers for God's Voice, Rev. Al Baker. Rev. Baker is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America and has been in the gospel ministry for over 35 years. He received his Master of Divinity degree from Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, Mississippi in 1981, and received his Doctor of Divinity in Evangelism and World Missions from Whitfield Theological Seminary, Lakeland, Florida. He currently serves as an evangelist with Presbyterian Evangelistic Fellowship with his ministry base in Birmingham, Alabama. Today, he'll fill us in a bit more about revoice and God's voice, and how they differ in addressing many of the issues of sexuality that we're facing today. So we invite your questions, and I'm sure you'll have them. If you're listening on Saturday, call 631-955-5400, or you can text your questions anytime, 516-367-0391. Rev. Al Baker, welcome to today's visit to the Pastors Study. Thank you, Bill. It's great to be with you. Hey, it's great to have you with us. Give us the big picture, Reverend Al Baker. What are the main differences between Revoice and God's Voice? Well, as I listen to you read back their website, the Revoice website, the thing that stands out to me so clearly is the issue of orientation. And they believe that they're born homosexual, or, you know, due to the fall into sin, that's their lot in life. They sometimes speak of their homosexual attraction from the fall into sin, much like Matthew 19, the man's born a eunuch, Or in John chapter 9, the man is born blind. That's just the way it is. It's their lot in life. They have to kind of deal with it. And that is not the picture in Scripture whatsoever. It's interesting how they will speak of the gay Christian, the homosexual Christian, that sort of thing. And it's simply not a biblical concept. Paul says, as you know, 2 Corinthians 5, if anyone is in Christ, he's a new creation. The oldest passed away, behold the newest come. So, one who may be homosexual at some point in time, when he's born again, he receives the Holy Spirit, God changes him on the inside, as Ezekiel 36 says, he takes out the rebellious heart, that loves them and hates god and puts and the heart that loves god and hate said regeneration edit second peter one the apostle speaks of the fact that we now have those in christ we have everything we need pertaining to life and godliness today the biggest contrast is the revoice conference would say well you know they're born homosexual They really can't change. It's criminal. It's cruel to try to get them to change. They speak of repair to therapy and so forth. Whereas the God's voice conference was remarkably refreshing because each of the speakers spoke to the fact that people choose at some point in time to become homosexual. You don't, you're not born that way. and that when they were born again god radically change that we heard testimony after testimony uh... men and women who had been in that homosexual lifestyle and had been converted out of it stephen black who's the the director of first stone ministries wasn't about homosexual for many many years dennis jernigan who's a pretty well-known songwriter and performer was a homosexual they both have been converted many, many years ago, and now are married and have a lot of children and so forth, and they will tell you that God saved them out of that. Now, they would also be quick to say that it's a stronghold, that sin, and sometimes it takes them a while to really get free from it. But they knew that they were free, and they continued to mortify the deeds of the flesh, as Paul says in Romans 8 and Romans 6. and began to see progress in holiness. So that's, to me, the major difference. To sum it up again, Revoice, orientation, that's the way it is. You're never going to change. God's voice, yes, there is hope. God can change you, and He does it through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. One of the speakers, or at least a participant in the 2018 Revoice conference, said this, SSA can be a product of a fall like blindness. yet not be a morally culpable sin. I think, Reverend Baker, that's what you're getting at. It's equating a natural condition under the fall with what really is a moral condition under the fall. Is that right? That's correct. And yeah, so, you know, I like to put it this way. In Romans chapter 1, Paul says, God gave them over in the desires of their flesh to practice impurity. And then he goes further, and the word lust there is the Greek word epithymia. And the next verse, he says, "...in the same manner God gave them over to degrading passions. The women exchanged their natural function for that which is unnatural. In the same manner the men exchanged the natural function of the woman and burned of their desire for one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own person the due penalty of their error." So Paul is talking there that not just the act of homosexuality is said but he says the very desire is said and what these people like to do is they like to drive a wedge between uh... they they make it uh... or dichotomy between desire and lust they want to say well you know if you're born with uh... a desire for someone of the same sex that's ok uh... if you act upon it then uh... or if you lost after the person then maybe it's sin, although some would even deny that. But Scripture clearly says that there's no dichotomy between desire and lust. The Greek word is saint, and again, in Romans 1, it speaks of God giving them over in the desires of the heart to impurity. That word is epithumia, and Luke chapter 22, when Jesus is about to eat the Passover with his disciples, he says, I desire to eat the Passover with you. Well, the Greek word is the same word, epithumia. So it means a strong desire. And so they're trying to muddy the waters by making that dichotomy, which is unbiblical. Well, let me ask you, Reverend Baker, do you have areas of agreement with revoice? Well, I would say that where we would agree is that everyone's made in the image of God. Everyone should be shown respect. uh... we should certainly welcome uh... homosexuals to attend our churches we should do all we can to minister to them once you get past that then uh... then i don't have any agreement because again uh... what they want to say is is that not only should are they welcomed uh... visit the church they should also be allowed to be members of the church take communion uh... even service church officers and yet uh... again because homosexuality is uh... and of which they've not repented then how can they how can they be called a christian i mean that you know when they want us but i will start talking about homosexual christians how is that any different than a fornicating christian or a lying christian or a drug-dealing christian or a uh... alcoholic No, no. When you're in Jesus Christ, you're a new creation. The old is passed away, behold the new is come. So once we get past what I just mentioned, I just don't think I can agree with them. My guest today is Rev. Al Baker of the Presbyterian Evangelistic Fellowship and also one of the keynote speakers at the God's Voice conferences. We're dealing with Revoice and God's Voice. And that language, Rev. Baker, we'll get to in a moment, ex-gay theology is kind of interesting. We'll get back to that after this message from the voice of a visit to the pastor's study. It's not enough to listen to pastors on the radio or to watch them on television. Everyone needs a biblically faithful pastor and everyone needs a biblically faithful church. A Visit to the Pastors Study is a ministry of the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches in the metropolitan New York area. We're no substitute for a faithful pastor in a local church, but we are a supplement. Visit our website, www.visitthepastorsstudy.org, and you can bring the ministry of this program right to your electronic device. Here you'll find archives of past programs, a weekly message from Pastor Bill's Pastors Post, helps for pastors, helps for congregation members, material for officer training, and much more. That's www.visitthepastorsstudy.org. And we also invite you to contact the host of this program, Pastor Bill Shishko. You can email him at visitpastorbill at gmail.com. He'd love to hear from you so that he can bring his pastoral ministry to you personally. That's visitpastorbill at gmail.com. Remember, everyone needs a pastor. And now back to today's edition of A Visit to the Pastor's Study. Your host, Pastor Bill Shishko. Today we're dealing with Revoice and God's Voice. My guest is Rev. Al Baker, one of the speakers for the God's Voice Conference. Rev. Baker, use the language that I found interesting, ex-gay theology, and of course you mentioned that at the God's Voice Conferences you have a a number of people who were converted out of a homosexual lifestyle. And the leadership of Revoice regards, quote, the purpose of orientation change as a chief measure of sanctification for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians, or I think that's what they mean, ex-gay theology. They say that has done, quote, great spiritual harm and brought deep emotional scars to thousands of men and women. What's the response to that from the God's Voice conference? Well again, I really believe that the root of the problem here, and I actually spoke with the pastor of the Memorial Presbyterian Church at our General Assembly back in June in Atlanta a month or two before the conference, and we had a very cordial conversation. Obviously we disagree on things, but He said, well, you know, my experience has been that they just rarely change. And I said, well, could it be this? I said, I actually think that the problem, not only in the homosexual area, but across the board in our churches today, is that we're not really preaching the full gospel. And I said, here's what I mean by that. Martin Luther, of course, brought back to us the wonderful doctrine of justification by faith alone, through grace alone, through Christ alone. And of course, that is absolutely foundational to the Reformation. And as important as that is, I still would say that that's not the full Gospel. The full Gospel is Ezekiel 36. I'll sprinkle clean water on you, and you'll be clean. That's justification. I'll take out the heart of stone or replace it with the heart of flesh. That's regeneration. I'll put my Spirit within you to cause you to walk after my commandments, so that you might obey my ordinances." That's sanctification. John Calvin, shortly thereafter Luther, did us one step better. He began to speak about sanctification. So now we're talking about sanctification and justification. But you really don't see a reemergence in a full way. of the doctrine of regeneration until you get to the 18th century with George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Frelinghuysen, and other great preachers of the day, where you must be born again. So I think what we have is, over the last maybe 50 to 100 years in the American church, we preach a justification-only gospel. It's wonderful, it's glorious that God will forgive us of our sins, that He will cleanse us, that He will give us the imputed righteousness of Jesus, and that's wonderful. But I think what we have is, I think we've got our churches are full of people who have believed, as they say, they've made a commitment, they feel better about themselves, but they still have a rebellious heart. Therefore, they don't have the capacity, they don't have the ability to live a godly life because they're still dead in their sin. So, you know, when you're telling someone who's you know, made a decision, as it were, for Christ, but their lives have not really changed, their heart has not changed, and then you're expecting them to, as they put it, experience ex-gay theology. Well, that's legalism. That's putting a straitjacket on these people. Of course they can't do it. But when they're in Jesus Christ, when they truly are born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, They now have everything they need pertaining to life and godliness, and they can live this out. They have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and empowering them and giving them the grace to mortify the deeds of the body. That's the difference. So when they're not born again, yeah, you know, try to get them to grit their teeth and bear it and try to get out of their sin. Yeah, that's impossible. But when they have Jesus truly by the Spirit, they can change. Fascinating. What are some other topics that you cover at the God's Voice conferences? Well, it's interesting. One of the speakers was a clinical psychologist, and he's actually writing a book, and he gave me the foreword to the book. The name of the book is, How to Make a Homosexual. And his premise is this, that Homosexuals are not born that way. They choose that. Now, there can be influences on their lives, but they choose it. He's basing this on the Scripture, and he's basing this secondarily on his own practice, his own practice of counseling and so forth. And I've worked a lot with homosexuals in the past, and I can tell you they all have a story. They either were neglected by their father, they were abused by someone, their mother was too deeply embedded in their life. There's always something. That's not to say that everyone whose father neglected them is homosexual. I'm just saying there's great emotional needs there. And he points out what his title, How to Make a Homosexual, is basically just, Fathers, do your job. Love your children. Minister to your children. Protect them from wickedness and all sorts of things. Discipline them. Bring them up in the Lord. Teach them the faith, you know? All of that. And I think that was very, very important. One of the speakers was Tom Littleton, and Tom has done enormous research, digging deeply, sort of as an investigative reporter of where all this stuff comes from. And really, the origin of it all is Mark Yarhouse, a professor of psychology part of the a p a and uh... he's a professor regents university and virginia he's about soon to take uh... similar position that we can college in chicago and basically uh... his view and the view of the others of revoice psychologically and culturally driven they're looking at psychology and the culture And they're trying to figure out how they can make Christianity work in that way, whereas the biblical methodology is always begin with the Scripture first. What does God say? What does his words say about these various issues? And Tom Littleton pointed out that this all started with Mark Yarhouse, and he is a major, major player with the Gospel Coalition. with he will be speaking this year at revoice two thousand nineteen and uh... i would i would say that it all starts with him if you look at some of his earlier books like from ten years or so ago he was pretty much right on the money as far as i can tell but as time went on you know we all tend to change some for the better some for the worse and he's very you know very compassionate very compelling speaker very erudite uh... very scholarly but basically he's saying they're born this way And they cannot change, and so we need to adapt our methodology of ministry to help these people feel more part of the Church. And as I like to point out, again, based on Romans 1, at the very least, when we tell people that they're okay with what they call their same-sex attraction, at the very least, we're saying, you know, there's no real hope for you. There's no victory for you. This is the way it is. Like I say, you're going to have to lament this the way it is the rest of your life. The worst, though, is that they're still under the wrath of God. Because again, in 1 Corinthians 6, Paul says that neither fornicators nor idolaters nor homosexuals, nor the effeminate, nor liars, nor drunkards, nor thieves, nor rebellers will inherit the kingdom of God." Reverend Al Baker, hey, thanks. You know, this is excellent. We're down to the wire on time, but thanks so much for being our guest today. God's Voice Conference and Reverend Al Baker, thanks for being my guest today. Remember, Sunday is the Lord's Day. Be sure to set apart time to worship the Lord in a church that's faithful to the Word of God. And remember, everyone needs a pastor. You've been listening to this week's A Visit to the Pastor's Study, a ministry of Reformation Metro New York incorporated in the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches of Metropolitan New York and Connecticut. For more information on the program, check out our website at www.visitthepastorstudy.org. That's www.visitthepastorstudy.org. Listen in next week for another Visit to the Pastor's Study. Remember, everyone needs a pastor.