Imagine, if you will, a world unlike anything you have ever known or experienced. A world without Sunday morning gatherings, without the echo of hymns and sanctuaries, without pulpits, pews, or the sounds of a preacher's voice calling souls to redemption. A world where no deacons serve, and no pastors shepherd, and no congregation unites in prayer. In this reality, the church as we know it never was. It is not history nor memory. It is nothing more than a figment of imagination. You are about to step beyond the veil into a dimension where faith has no fellowship, where the body has no unity, and where hope walks alone. Welcome to For the Love of the Church, Season 3. So thinking... of that passage in 1 Corinthians 12 where Paul, you know, uses the analogy of a body where, you know, you have eyeballs. Eyeballs do a very specific thing and they do that very well. Right. A nose does a very specific thing and it does it very well. Right. An ear cannot be replaced for a nose or an eyeball, right? Right. And so you have all these different parts that work together and when You know, when you hurt one of those parts, the rest of the parts kind of suffer, right? When one succeeds, the whole thing succeeds. That's how God has made the church, right? I mean, that's Paul's argument there in 1 Corinthians 12. The church needs each other to edify itself, for the building up of itself. So if we don't have a church, well, then there's no body, right? So when there's no body, what, everybody becomes, what does that happen? Individual part. Yeah, there's no, That whole image of interdependence, you know, working together, that's all gone, right? So with that would go, I mean, there would probably still be spiritual gifts, right? Because he would want, yeah, I guess, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what they would look like. I don't know how they would function because the whole point of a spiritual gift is to edify your other brothers and sisters. So you would have to be very intentional. Like in a sense, it might add more responsibility, right? If you have a local body, you kind of go to church and then you go, okay, well, I'm going to minister here. If there's no local church, then what do you got to do? You got to go like, I'm on the hunt for Christians, right? Are you even on the hunt for Christians? Do you have a drive? Do you have a motivation to go and find somebody to minister to? So it would like make it significantly more difficult, right? Because it's like, well, okay, I got the spiritual gift. It's either just for me or I gotta go way out of my way to find somebody to use it on, right? And then that poor guy that you finally find, right? It's like, I've been waiting my whole life to do my spiritual gift and you are the guy that receives all of it. You know, the poor guy. Thank you. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I need a break from Dave. That's right, yeah. His influence on my life, giving me all of his spiritual gifts. Yeah, and then, oh, you just think about the church fellowship, right? I know not everybody has a great experience with a church, but there is something. There is something about when believers get together, and they're praising the Lord together, they're sharing, It is the thing that gets me out of bed, right? I mean, like, I'll be honest. I feel like right now, as a pastor in the Pacific Northwest, I'm getting constant carpet bombed with dirty bombs all the time, right? Just the culture, just constantly going. I don't know how I would survive if I didn't have a Wednesday evening, a Saturday, and a Sunday. Like that constant fellowship, constant with believers. And even though I'm a pastor and I'm doing a lot of the teaching, I don't think people really understand how the congregation helps grow a pastor. Yeah. I mean, it has to. And a pastor that thinks, I'm the only one that can teach and I can't learn anything from you, is a poor man, right? And he just really misunderstands it. I get so much back from them, from their comments, that they often will teach me probably, I think, more than I teach them, right? I just really feel that. And so... what, yesterday we had a chili cook-off. You were the judge. Yeah, it was amazing. It was just a fun time with brothers and sisters and we were talking about the Lord, what's going on in your life, encouraging one another and one table people are laughing and having a good time and at another table somebody's friend, good friend died and so you have in the simultaneous room you have laughing and cheering and rejoicing with the one who's rejoicing and then you have the weeping with the one who's weeping. Right. If you don't have the church, you don't have that. I think again, it just goes back to how it makes us realize how individual. our Christian life would become, how individual our relationships would become. And I think there would be isolation. I think there would be more depression. I think there would be more anxiety. I think there would be more worry. I think there would be a whole lot of stuff going on that we don't even realize because we are beneficiaries of the reality of the local church with its fellowship, with its works of ministry that people do for us, with the engagement of the gifts that people have that we are beneficiaries of and we don't even realize how much we benefit from that. And so, you know, okay, so obviously we hinge this, this season around, it's a wonderful life. As you go, as you think about that movie, if you've seen it, those of you that have are listening that have seen that, you know, when George Bailey is in his time of, of nobody knows him, nobody's aware of him. Uh, nobody recognizes him. All of his friends, you know, don't, don't know who he is. Even Mary, his wife, you know, she's, you know, she's the old librarian. Um, I think what the movie is depicting, and this is so contrary, because I hate any kind of concept that we use movies for our preaching, but this isn't preaching, this is a podcast, we all understand the theoretical. And this ain't church. This ain't church. But I think when you look at what is really being depicted there for George Bailey is isolation, depression, sadness, nobody knows me. And there's a part of me that wishes believers could kinda see this reality of no local church. Because I think there's so many believers who are either jaded or indifferent or apathetic or just, I don't know, man, I'm just gonna go through the motions. I gotta be here. And if somehow, if somehow God could allow us to experience for 24 hours the reality of no local church, I think we'd be like what George Bailey is in that movie. In that movie, he's rushing around trying to find anybody. Hey, you remember me, don't you? Hey, I don't know who you are. Who are you? And that sense of hopelessness, that sense of despair, that sense of nobody knows me because I don't exist. If the local church doesn't exist, I think that's a lot more of how we are as Christians. Yes, again, the gospel is there, and we can find benefit and joy and hope from the gospel, and preaching still exists, and evangelism still exists, and discipleship still exists, and the future gathering and this nebulous concept that we have of the believer still exists, but the reality is I think we live in a hopeless, depression, sadness, isolation. I think those are the words that mark us, as opposed to what we are marked by in Pauline epistles especially is joy and hope and anticipation and engagement and encouragement and fellowship. All of that language is now magnified where if we could unplug the local church and actually live in this reality for a minute as believers to go, whoa, I understood and feel like what it would be like if the church didn't exist. Now we plug the church back in, it does exist. We should be walking into our local churches on Sunday or Saturday or Wednesday with like, Oh my word, I get to be here. I get to be with the believers. They do exist. I do exist. This is a beautiful picture of what is actually happening. Absolutely. Yeah, maybe the closest we got to that was COVID. I don't know how it was throughout the rest of the United States. I'm sure it was rough. But here in the Pacific Northwest, our government believed everything about COVID. COVID caused everything. And So yeah, so there was a period of time where we didn't have church, right? Like we didn't have the local gathering and we were trying to figure out as a church, how do we coordinate things? And oh, it was so difficult and like we were just so separated, right? And I remember when we finally came back together. So I think there was like a month and a half where we hadn't really met, because we didn't really know what was going on at the time. And then when we first got back together, it was like, I remember you. I remember this. It was the best feeling to be around other brothers and sisters. It was like, oh, I don't have to work so hard to fellowship. We had to go way out of our way. And even then, when we fellowshiped, it was like, well, there's a distance, right? There was still a distance. Awkward and clunky and disjointed. I know the whole idea is to think about it outside of a church, but I remember during COVID, we had quite a few families that had people that were in the hospital. And our hospital in our county, because of the board of directors, not because of the doctors or the nurses, had made a decision to limit the amount of exposure, because you might pick up COVID and come in. So they were only allowing certain amount of visitors and they would cap it off. And so I remember one lady, it was in the ICU, asked for me to come and pray. She was getting ready to die. She needed her pastor. She needed her church. And I got kicked out. I wasn't allowed in. And so I called from the parking lot. We waved at each other through the window. And it was, I'm here. I can't come in. I'm really sorry. I'll pray for you. and she was alone. She was so desperately, desperately alone to be with people. And like, I just remember that whole sad scenario of thinking, that's what it would be like, that isolation, hurt. I need somebody, I'm in the ICU. I need someone. Well, someone please acknowledge I exist. Yeah, or yeah. And it was just, Does anybody care about me? Right, does anybody know? Yeah. Does anybody understand? Yeah, and to have, you know, like we talked about, the gifts would still be there. God gifts us as believers. So I have the different gifts of, you know, maybe administration or, you know, whatever, maybe, whatever gift God has given to you, or the work of the ministry. You know, there's still some elements that are there, but we're not playing them out. We're not engaging them. And I think of Ephesians 4, and we'll talk about scripture soon. What effect does this have on scripture, which will be a fascinating component to talk about. But Ephesians 4, where Paul says, listen, okay, within the context of the local church, it does exist. And he gave the apostles, prophets, evangelists, the shepherds, and the teachers to equip the saints for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ. Well, okay, so if the local church doesn't exist, the body of Christ still exists. I mean, that's the collective big seat church. It still exists. And maybe like what we've talked about before, the impact the magnification of those gifts being played out, or the work of the ministry being played out, to be able to say, well, yes, all those things have been given to us so that we can build up the body of Christ, but we're doing that on a very individual basis. We're not doing that on a collective basis. And we're losing the exponential impact, and we're losing the ability to see that magnified. And as Paul talks about this in Ephesians chapter 4, he's going to break this out, until we all attain the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness, and by craftiness in deceitful schemes." I think in verse... in verse 14 there, Paul is actually giving us a glimpse, I think, of almost this hypothetical, what if the church didn't exist? If the church didn't exist, you're gonna be children who are tossed to and fro by the waves, carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. I think that's a glimpse. Maybe Paul would be like, yeah, Dave, you and Caleb got this right. Let's think about this. Because I think there is this reality where Paul is going to say, listen, this is the reality. So the gifts of the Spirit, the works of the Spirit, the works of ministry were given so that this can do it. But if you don't have this, here's the reality. And I think this is a glimpse into that hypothetical. we would be tossed to and fro. We would be carried about by every wind of doctrine. We would be carried about by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. Even like we looked at yesterday, Colossians chapter two, don't let anybody take you captive by human ideologies and elemental spirit. So if the church doesn't exist, we have a whole lot of people being taken captive, being sucked into every wind of doctrine that could possibly come. And so we wouldn't lose our salvation, obviously. We wouldn't go there. But we have a whole lot of people who have been taken captive who are not living in the reality of their salvation, who are not living in the reality of what they should as a body of believers in the local church. Hi, this is Caleb. I'm one of the financial sponsors of whatever you're listening to right now. Let's be honest. I have many friends. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean that they're not real. See, I do this thing where I think of a person, I imagine them, and then they become my friend. But there's one problem. I have to imagine what they say, and frankly, I'm tired of doing all the talking. 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Real Imaginary Friends, brought to you by Mirage Incorporated. Because loneliness is exhausting, and imagination deserves a break. Well, Dave, we were talking about your kids last night. You know, you have some kids that have got married and left and they're starting families. You send them out. They go all these different places. How are you thinking as a dad who's led your kids to the Lord? Yeah, no, you go to Cincinnati or you go there. Yeah. What other believers are there, Dave? Like, what church do you send them to? Like, as a parent, I would be going nuts. Like, are they walking with the Lord? Are there anybody that's gonna be around there to help them? Is there anybody, like, I can't be there. So you would almost have to say, you could really see the possibility of parents being like, no, no, you're staying right here. You're staying right here, yeah. Because we at least have a little family unit that's working together. That's why I think the worry, the anxiety, the fear, the agony of our emotions is going to be magnified because you're out there all alone on your own. And we understand the reality of what that looks like in the spiritual realm. And I think even Paul is mentioning that here in verse 14, that, dude, you're like children tossed to and fro by the waves, carried about by every wind. I mean, all the imagery of the crashing waves and the blowing winds of doctrine. And so yeah, I send my kids out to go do something, and I have to sit there and go, how are they not gonna be blown all over the place? I hope and pray that they have a commitment in their own faith and walk in Christ. But, so okay, so let's keep using this analogy. Let's plug the church back in. You know, let's kind of come out of this little thing that didn't exist. Plug it back in to go, holy cow, how awesome is it that like my kids up in, I mean, I've actually had this conversation. We've been having this conversation. Hey, Dad, what church should we go to? What's a good church we should be looking for? Can you help us find? and think through church. Yeah, that's great. And now I can sit there and go, that's the body of believers you should be connected to and involved in and engaged in. And not that I'm like, I don't ever care about my kids or worry about them, but I'm like, they have connected into a body, connected into a local church. and that church may have problems and issues, it's run by humans or whatever, but man, there's a thriving nature now for them. My son who's moved out west to say, you're plugged into a local assembly, you're plugged into a local body. The ability of the local church to protect and to care and to nurture and to do the gifts, to do the work of the ministry, And so I want to be in a place where you can use your gifts and ministry skills on me, I can use mine on you, and we have mutual benefit together. And now we actually have a whole collection of other people who are doing the same thing, and now we're growing and we're thriving and we're stable in this unstable world. Now I'm going to just share a quick story. Hopefully this will connect. So when I was growing up, I was in Wyoming. I loved punk rock music, Wyoming and punk rock music. Oh man, that's what I think of when I think of Wyoming, punk rock. So it was really difficult. And then being in a church that was pretty conservative, you come in with a punk rock band and there's a lot of, pushback, right? And at the time, I really hated that pushback. And I think some of that pushback wasn't very biblical. I feel like there could have been, I feel like some of the things that were said pushed me further to do that, right? So there was things that they said, and I said, oh yeah, watch this. Because if anybody's been around me for any period of time, you know that my flesh goes, you're gonna tell me to do something, I will literally do the opposite, right? Like a Spite sandwich, right? Yeah, Spite sandwich. There you go. Buffalo chicken sandwich. There you go. Curly fries. That's right, yeah. That's another story for another podcast. But as I think back to what the church did, I would have went, that body of believers with that constant pressure of a particular way of behaving, kept me grounded. Like I needed the church to go, you're messing up, stop, stop it. And I needed that pressure. Some of it's not biblical, right? Some of it was totally cultural and I get it, right? But there is some wisdom even there, right? Like, hey, don't, be careful how you conduct yourself because you have to get jobs and you're gonna have a family and you're gonna have this stuff. And some of the stuff you do now could, in a serious way impact some of that stuff you do later. So I get those pressures, and there's a lot of wisdom from a lot of older saints. So when I think about this whole passage of that maturing, right, you know, until we attain unity of the faith, knowledge of the Son of God to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of fullness, the church, even when it's imperfect, and pressing in on, hey, stop that, That's good. I mean, sometimes it can be really bad, and it can be really hurtful, and I'm sure a lot of people are hurt by that, but there's also a process in which it is really good. Yeah. You know, there does get a sense of decorum. There does get a sense of maturity, right? There is a sense of, hey, you're being weird. Stop it. Don't be weird, man. Don't be weird. Don't make it weird. Yeah, don't make this weird. And so, yeah, there were several behaviors that I had that the church just by the collective example and yeah constant pressures of the church i went oh okay i i repented so god used that so if i don't have that church and let's say punk rock caleb's in wyoming right you have all these pressures and there's no really good example of what that looks like there's nothing that tethers me to god's word there's nothing really that would tether me to christ i mean other than the spirit of god right and all that but it would be like I probably would have went the full Monty, right? I mean, I would have gone all nine yards. Right. Because I didn't have that accountability and that pressure and that causing me to think, is this the right course of action? Yeah. Is this good? Well, even, yeah, I mean, I think you bring up a good point even too beyond the gifts of the spirit or the work of the ministry, taking that a little step further is the fellowship that we enjoy as a body of believers, the instruction, the worship that we enjoy, the mutual edification that we enjoy. So yeah, specifically we can talk about, well, the gifts are still there and the work of ministry is kind of still there, There's even a bigger picture too of like, man, we enjoy the fellowship together. We enjoy the coming together to worship. I mean, I can worship in my car, I can worship laying in my bed, I can listen to music, whatever. I can worship individually, that's fine, that's great. But there is something moving. about worshiping together with a body of believers in a corporate setting that is like, this isn't just me, this is, wow, look it, there's all these people and we're all here together. And again, that imagery of, of looking forward to the day that we're gathered around the throne of Christ from every tribe, tongue, and nation. I mean, that's a beautiful thing to think about. And so the fellowship that we enjoy, the worship that we can enjoy, just the collective doing. ministry together that we enjoy is going to be missing if the local church doesn't exist, and we can't undervalue that because that's a reality that Christ is working through the church to accomplish. Oh, you are so right. So, I'm a musician. I love playing. I play at church, and even now I play with what's called in-ear monitors, right? So they're noise-canceling headphones that I play that I can hear my music and I can hear all the other parts on stage. Well, what ends up happening is I'm taking one out. And you go, why would you get a noise-canceling thing just to take it out? It's because I miss hearing the congregation when they sing. It's like part of the joy of playing in church and as a pastor is I think that's the only time that my church is saying the same thing at the same time. What other time? What other time is everybody saying the same thing at the same time? Right, yeah. There is no other time, right? Unless you have like scripted reading. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when you're reading the Bible together, you're, you know. Yeah. I mean, that always feels clunky to me. Right. Because it's like, you know, you get the one guy that's reading faster than the other one guy, you know, people that are reading slower. But usually, so in our worship, in our singing, there's the rhythm and the music and all of it's kind of keeping us more naturally together. So you're right, man. I mean, I hadn't thought about that angle, too, of like, we lift our voices with, you know, Lewis and Clark Bible Church has 100 people or whatever, or other churches that might have 1,000. You're lifting your voices together saying exactly the same thing of like, wow, it's not just me, but it's this whole group and as a very small picture and representation of what we're looking forward to in heaven. Yeah, so I don't have that. If I don't have the church, I don't have that. We don't have Chris Tomlin. Yeah, right. We don't have our great, you know, we don't have the hymns. Yeah. All those hymns you love? Yeah. Why would you have them? What would be the purpose of a hymnal? Yeah. What would be the purpose of it? You're not going to write a hymnal for yourself. Yeah. I mean, maybe you are. Maybe you're a musician and you have some songs in your head. Yeah, but where would you play those? Yeah, like Yeah, playing by yourself is boring. It's fun, but it's boring, right? What, you're going to go out? Where are you going to go? You're going to go to like the local bar? What, play songs about Jesus at a bar? Yeah, because that always goes over really well. Or, you know, maybe you're like David and you're sitting out with the sheep and you're playing on your harp and doing your thing, but... I think if we were to ask King David, I think he would say, I'd rather be playing my harp with a hundred other people, singing and worshiping and then playing out by myself. Well, even in thinking that, right? So, the book of Psalms is the hymnal for Israel. So, like, even in the Old Testament, there's this idea of congregation of people together. So, yeah, if there's no church, we miss music. I'm going to philosophize here. I'm not even 100% sure music today would sound like music today if it wasn't for the church. The church has been a major innovator in music, harmonies. I think the world just looks different. It looks very different. If there's no congregational singing, If there's no congregations getting together, it all is different. Everything about it is different, and we would be in an alien world. Yeah, some components are there, but the impact is not there in the same way. And again, I think we, you know, I'll just keep reiterating, the brilliant genius of the local church.