Imagine, if you will, a world unlike anything you have ever known or experienced. A world without Sunday morning gatherings, without the echo of hymns and sanctuaries, without pulpits, pews, or the sounds of a preacher's voice calling souls to redemption. A world where no deacons serve, and no pastors shepherd, and no congregation unites in prayer. In this reality, the church as we know it never was. It is not history nor memory, it is nothing more than a figment of imagination. You are about to step beyond the veil into a dimension where faith has no fellowship, where the body has no unity, and where hope walks alone. Welcome to For the Love of the Church, Season 3. We started this whole conversation thinking of the movie, It's a Wonderful Life, and while we don't want to get our theology from Hollywood, and that movie does have some interesting interesting theology. If we were going to dissect its theology, which it doesn't really have, but yes. So, anyways. Well, it does have theology. Yep. But not the good kind. Not a good kind of theology. But what's interesting about the movie is, yeah, so this guy is, like, depressed, right? He's on the verge of of committing suicide, and when he sees his life without him in it, and what a wonderful life he actually has, then he is willing to go home and be the man that you know, being a good man to his family. And so, I guess the hope for us was kind of doing something similar in kind of imagining a world without the church. Yeah. And trying to imagine what that would be like so that when you look at your life, you look at your circumstance, you go, oh, wow, this is incredible that I I get to be part of this church, right? This is the most incredible thing that I get to be a part of, and I should consider myself to be some of the most blessed people, person, on the face of the planet. And because I get to live here, I get to live now, and I get to be part of the church. And so this is a look at what is a world without the church? Yeah, and I think when sometimes we need that perspective, not of being suicidal, but we need the perspective of just being able to say, what's the reality of life if the church doesn't exist? And then we kind of go through that of like, whew, that is not good. Like that scenario, those implications, those results and consequences are not good. And so then, it's almost like waking up from a bad dream. You wake up in the morning and you're like, dude, I had this dream that this happened, but then I realized it didn't happen and now I'm overjoyed. What really, I mean, ideally for those that are listening, what we'd love to see is at the end of this season where you're like, I am overjoyed, I cannot wait to get to church. and to be with the saints and to just be fully enveloped and engulfed and involved in the church, in the local church. Because it is, we keep saying, it's a brilliant genius, a mechanism, a body, a collection of believers that gets to do amazing things together. And we get to be a part of that. And I think as we think about this magnificent, brilliant concept of the church, it's very natural then for us to go, well, no kidding. No wonder the Bible describes us as the bride of Christ. We see Christ in all of his splendor and all of his majesty and all of his glory. And then sometimes I think we think of the church like she's a frumpy dumpy throwaway over here that somehow this amazing Christ would have as the bride is some like worthless piece of trash and the church is not a worthless piece of trash. It's an amazing thing. Yeah, I remember one time I was listening to a panel discussion of church planters and the question was, when do you know a church is planted and what does a good church look like? And these guys gave all these answers and a lot of the answers I think you and I would go, yeah, that's what you're looking for. But the one thing that I thought that I didn't hear that I thought, oh, I wish somebody would have said that was the church isn't done yet. So like whatever we're doing right now is being part of the church. And you're like, yeah, the church is messy and it's dirty and it doesn't look good. Well, yeah, it's not done. And so there's still work that has to be done. And being part of the church is being part of what God is doing right now. What is God's? What is God's plan right now for the world? What is He doing? How does He work through the world? He works through the church. He works through the local church. It's not done. But you're a part of that. You're an instrument in the hand of the Master. Dave, you've been staying in my basement. That's been under construction. It's amazing how many times they put up something just to tear it down. There's sawing, there's dust, there's this, there's that. So you go down there and you go, oh, this looks gross. But when you see what the design is at the end, you go, well, I get it. No, I totally get it. That had to happen. This had to happen. There's a temporary messiness. So yeah, we can look at the church from our perspective and go, well, this looks, this looks icky. Yeah, this looks gross. Yeah, it's like the process of baking and making a cake or making cookies or whatever you're going to make. And you think about all the ingredients that go into it, like the cake mix, of like, you wouldn't want to just take a clump of cake mix and throw it in your mouth. That'd be rough. Not the way I do it. Yeah. Or two eggs, you know, just crack two raw eggs and throw them in your mouth and be like, what are we doing? Or, you know, a tablespoon or teaspoon or whatever it would be of salt or, you know, baking powder or baking soda or whatever, all the ingredients, obviously I don't know how to bake, but whatever ingredients are going into it, like individual ingredients, you'd look at it and go, I don't want to just take a clump of that. But dude, you put that all together, you mix it all together, you throw it into a pan, you put it in the oven, and you bake it, and out comes this, oh, man, amazing, like, my favorite cake is German chocolate cake. And it comes out, and it's moist, and it's rich, and it's just warm, and you put the icing on it, and it's like, this is amazing. And even in the midst of quote-unquote building, Christ building his church, it's still amazing, and it's still doing amazing things, and it's still, a brilliant genius that we keep saying of a body of believers. And I hope that this season has kind of helped us look at that and look at its reality to be able to say, we get to be a part of that. We get to be a part of what Christ is building. And Christ doesn't do anything that's just like blah or frumpy and dumpy. Christ does everything amazing because he is amazing and supreme. And so I think it's really cool that we get to be part of that. This has been a really interesting exercise, because we've been talking about this idea for a year now. Almost since, actually from the beginning, even before we recorded the first season, we were throwing this concept around. So I've had a lot of time to think about this concept and think, yeah, what does the world look like without the church? And what does my life look like without the church? And the hopelessness and the incredible opportunity I have of being in the church. And so I was just trying to think of passages that helped me just really appreciate the church and think about the church and think about being part of the church. And I couldn't help but think of Hebrews 10, Just starting in verse 19, where he says, "...therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus..." Well, amen. I can go to the throne room of God, right? "...by a new and living way He has opened for us through the curtain, that is, His flesh, since we have a great high priest over the house of God." So let us draw near with the true heart of full assurance of faith With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering so I contend that that confession is the thing that's found in chapter one, right? Who jesus christ is that this church is is wavering. They're immature They don't quite understand some of the basics He's saying come on guys. You gotta you gotta get with jesus. Jesus is so much better And then, you know, so let us hold fast our confession with hope, without wavering, for he who promised is faithful, and let us consider how to stir one another to love and good works. A lot of times when I'm dealing with people and they're struggling with theology, they might be deconstructing, right? They might be in the process of deconstructionism. A lot of times it's doctrine, doctrine, doctrine, but he's also saying, stop thinking about yourself. Think about how you could stir up one another. Yeah, that word for stirrup is interesting, right? Isn't that provoke? Yeah, provoke, yeah. Yeah, poke him with a stick. Yeah, poke him with a stick. Yeah, the love and good deeds and then not neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some. So, to me, it was like in the author's mind, there's a connection with our hope in Christ, not wavering, staying true to Christ, and being in the church, right? And our encouragement and how I stimulate you and how you stimulate me is in the church. And it's not neglecting. And then it was that little line, which is interesting, as is the habit of some. Some people already have this habit. And so, yeah, I've just really appreciated this more. And then I get the sense when he says, but encouraging one another, all the more as you see the day drawing near. So it's almost as if the closer I see the end coming, the more I want to be around my brothers and sisters, and I want to encourage them because it's getting tougher, it's getting tougher, it's getting tougher. So yeah, the church is so necessary for me to grow, so necessary to help me We are thrilled to announce that CND Church Supply is now part of the Mirage Inc. family. 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Revolutionizing worship, one genre at a time. Was there any other passages you were thinking of as we were thinking about this, talking about this, as you've been thinking about this? Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's A couple of different passages, you can think about just the reality of the Church, like you alluded to, and we looked at Ephesians 4, and just all the preparation and all the maturing and bringing to maturity of the body and the way the body works together in the Church, and the workmanship that each one of us individually are and collectively we are. Revelation 21, there's an interesting kind of comparison analogy that occurs. So Revelation 21, of course we know this is at the end. Verse one, then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, excuse me, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. So, The imagery that John is using here, obviously, is in description of the new heaven and the new city, which we know is beyond our own amazement and ability to comprehend. Take all of the wonders of the world and all the beauty of the world and just magnify it a thousand times, and that's what this is. So here's the new city, the new heaven, the new earth coming down, and John describes it in the beauty of a bride adorned for her husband. Well, you take that and then you say, okay, but the church is the bride of Christ. In biblical theology, there's always these common denominator, common aspects, common relationships. And so if John is using this language of the new heaven and the earth as a bride adorned for her husband, the beauty, the magnificence, the amazement, the splendor, then I think we can deduce that when we think about the bride of Christ, the church, the bride of Christ, we have to think about it almost in this imagery of the new heaven and the new earth. I'm not suggesting they're the same thing. They're clearly not. I'm just saying the imagery here of the new heaven and new earth is the same type of imagery that we have to think about when we think about the church. So if your concept of the church is frumpy and dumpy and trashy, then why would that be something that Christ would say, this is my bride? When John's language is using this idea of like utter brilliant, magnificent, splendor, majesty beyond comprehension, like a bride prepared for her husband, when Paul is describing and Christ is describing the bride of Christ, the church as the bride of Christ, we have to say the church has to have that same type of imagery, magnificent, brilliant, splendor, majesty, wonder, amazement. And I think we keep using that concept of brilliant genius through this whole thing of when you look at the bride of Christ, you look at the church, I think we have to conclude, dude, this is amazing. And on the unfortunate reality, and I'm not a super warm, fuzzy, compassionate, let me cry with you kind of guy, But the sad reality is that there are people, and maybe even somebody listening to this podcast, who's like, dude, my whole concept of the church is frumpy, dumpy, trashy. And I hate that, that you think that. And I'll be honest, I don't always have the greatest view of the church. I mean, even in my role of ministry work, anybody in ministry work is gonna go, well, there's some, yeah, there's some bad parts to this thing. But we have to, I think an exercise even like this, it just pulls us back, lets us see, kind of from a 30,000 foot level, lets us see the beauty and the majesty and the splendor of the church. And then we wake up from this dream and we're put back into it. And I think it's kind of like, again, you know, when George Bailey is on the bridge and, you know, he starts bleeding from his lip where he got punched before he tried to commit suicide, before all this, and he's just, he's screaming with joy. Because he got to come back into this life, this miserable life that he thought of before. Everything was horrible, everything was devastating, no money, all this stuff. And he now gets to re-enter, in that concept of the movie, re-enter that life. And he's just running through town. yelling and screaming and waving and saying hi to everybody and, and kissing, you know, things and, and all of it, you know, he, he, he runs in and he catches the banister or the little knob on the top of the banister and it comes off and he kisses it like, Oh, the thing that irritated the fire out of me, I'm now like, Oh, this is a beautiful, amazing house. And I think for us, when we kind of wake up, quote unquote, from this theoretical dream, there is no church. And we wake up and we go, no, there is a church. And now we should be running to it going, all of those things that we were annoyed by, all of those things that we were frustrated by, all of those things that irritated us last week at church, hopefully we come back this Sunday and go, hello, you old beautiful thing you. Because this is the magnificent splendor of this brilliant genius of Christ in the local church, which exponentially magnifies everything about God and Christ. So that's kind of my take. That, I like that. Yeah. And I think that's true, you know? Imagining a world without the church is scary and it's, I don't like it. You know, one of the other things too I was thinking about was perspective is so important in this. So, I can define something as beautiful and you might not define it as beautiful. And so, when I think then of the church and, you know, what you described there in Revelation, and I think of in Ephesians 5 where, you know, he might present the church to himself in splendor. So we're the gift of God the Father to Jesus and Jesus' gift to himself. I like you sometimes don't see the beauty of it, but from his perspective of what he's done, the work that he's put in, yeah, it's beautiful. It really is a beautiful thing to be part of the church. And he sees us as beautiful. We might not see ourselves as beautiful. We don't always see it, yeah. That's right. And that he died for us. Yes. He gave his life for us, the body, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ. And what an amazing, amazing truth and amazing thought. And is there, I mean, we've talked about this repeatedly, season one, season two, even this season. Is there a lot of junk in church? Absolutely. There's people. And as long as there's people, there's always problems. But hopefully, and I think a prayer that I think a prayer that we need to pray as believers, a prayer that we need to pray is, Father, help us. to see the church the way you intend us to see the church. Because Satan, I think we have to remember that Satan, obviously, Satan is not happy with the bride of Christ. Satan is not sitting there going, you know what, I'd like to be the best man at this wedding. I'd like to really let everybody see how amazing the bride is. Satan is trying to show us all of the flaws, all of the failures, all the issues, all the pockmarks of this thing. And I think we need to be constantly praying, Father, help us to see the church the way you see us, and help us to realize the purpose and the role and the intention and the brilliant genius of the church and the body of Christ, and help us to fall in love more with the bride of Christ and the body of believers. Yeah. The elder here at Lewis & Clark, his name is Greg, we often remind each other the people we serve are the people that Jesus died for. And so who are we to try to discourage the people that Jesus died for? Yeah, they don't belong to me. They don't belong to you. They belong to the Savior. Well, I just wanted to thank our listeners. Thank you so much for listening to us. Some of you may, this might be your first time listening to us. We encourage you to go back to season one, season two. Listen to all those things. Yeah, get to know us. Listen to some of the fun things that we do. And some of our fun sponsors. Yeah, fun sponsors, yeah. Yeah, fun sponsors. And for all of the long-time listeners, just want to say hi, mom. And I'll say hi to my mom, too. So Caleb and I joke that we only have two listeners. It's our moms. Hopefully we have more, but you know, even if we only have our moms and those are the only people that are encouraged, I know we both love our moms immensely. So thank you, mom. Thank you, Mom Hilbert. Yeah, Mama Deets. Mama Deets. We love you guys. Yeah, but no, we just wanted to thank you guys so much for listening, all of our listeners. coming alongside of us and being encouraged to love the church and fall in love with the church, we are excited about the future we still are in the in the works of what we're going to do for the next season and we will advertise that when we get when it comes time but just know that we're anxiously excited about the next season and just want to thank you guys so much for just listening and hopefully we've been able to encourage you and help you fall in love with the church.