Imagine, if you will, a world unlike anything you have ever known or experienced. A world without Sunday morning gatherings, without the echo of hymns and sanctuaries, without pulpits, pews, or the sounds of a preacher's voice calling souls to redemption. A world where no deacons serve, and no pastors shepherd, and no congregation unites in prayer. In this reality, the church as we know it never was. It is not history nor memory, it is nothing more than a figment of imagination. You are about to step beyond the veil into a dimension where faith has no fellowship, where the body has no unity, and where hope walks alone. Welcome to For the Love of the Church, Season 3. So we continue this thought as we've just finished up and wrapped up this idea of the work of ministry and gifts and actually moving ourselves to thinking about, and this is going to be an interesting concept, Caleb, the interesting impact of scripture. So if the church does not exist, so again, we're going through our theoretical hypothetical scenario, the church does not exist, and here's a reality that I think we need to think about, and that is, how does that affect the canon of scripture? So if there is no local church, then some of the books that we have in the Bible have, at best, a different focus, a different emphasis, a different audience. So books like Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians. I mean, those are specifically written to particular churches for a particular purpose. And so if the church does not exist, One of the things we have to think about is how does that affect what we know of as the Bible? You know, there's other books of the Bible that obviously are impacted as well. We think of, you know, James or we think of 1 Peter. We think of other books like that. You have to say, you know, 1st, 2nd, 3rd John, how are those impacted? But I think there's a reality that maybe, you know, as maybe people have been tracking along with this season going, oh, yeah, okay, the church is hypothetical, the church isn't real, what would be the impact? But I think there's an interesting topic and dynamic of the scriptures. How are the scriptures impacted as a result of this theoretical hypothetical situation where the church does not exist? So I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Well, yeah, there's a lot of impacts, right? Because like you said, all the books kind of seem, or a lot of the books seem to be directed at churches with church problems, so. Right. book of Romans, it's to the church in Rome. Right. So he's not writing the same things. Right. So who would he be writing to if there's no church? He'd have to be writing to a person. Yeah, a person. Yeah. Or maybe like two people or like three people are like, hey, I'm going to send you this letter send it over to, you know, Carl down the street or whatever. It'd be very close to probably a lot more Philemon's. Yeah. Yeah. And then you would have, like, I was also thinking, like, the book of Revelation, right? That's written to seven churches. Right. Okay, well, then that would be different, right? The first three chapters of Revelation have a different effect. Although there's a dualistic component of the first three chapters of Revelation where Yes, those are specific churches. However, we tend to say that they're, you know, kind of have a dualistic purpose where these are churches in general as well. So, you know, that would be an interesting thing to process. But it would still be churches, right? So you would still lose that. It would be, yeah, it would be like Philemon. So it would be, you know, you got this personal issue with a guy. Right. So go solve it. You know, stop being a weirdo. Right. Go solve it. Or it would be very individualistic. And it wouldn't be for a church, how a church functions, like the book of Philippians. You have Iudice and Syntyche, right? They're fighting. How do you? So it'd be the book of Iudice and Syntyche, or Syntyche and Iudice. Yeah. As opposed to the book of Philippians. Right. Yeah, so like, it would just be about that issue. So he would say the same things, right? I mean, there would still be a lot of the similar, love one another, focus on the gospel, but it wouldn't be function as a church, because there is no church. So yeah, there would be no function. So it would be, it would, that would just change in the tenor of the New Testament. It would be very individualistic, and there wouldn't be a lot on how we how we interact as a body. Yeah, how we govern, how we set it up, how we function, how we work together, how we labor together, all those particular things. Obviously the gospels would be the same. Yeah. Because the Gospels are communicating to us the life and ministry of Christ, not written specifically to a church. Acts would be the same because it's just simply Acts of the Apostles in the history book, although there would be some differences in Acts. Yeah. Because Paul's missionary journeys would probably look different. Because he's planting churches. He's planting churches. So, it might be Paul's missionary journey as he just kind of like itinerant went around and preached or did things, but he's not planting churches. Yeah, it'd probably be a lot like Mars Hill, right? A lot of different Mars Hills. Yeah, yeah. Where he's... Like different interactions, individual interactions or individual interactions within the synagogue, you know, like Acts 17, where it talks about, as was his custom, he went in, he reasoned three Sabbath days. So we're probably going to see a lot more of like Acts 17-ish. Yeah. type of interactions, even though that later on becomes the historical narrative for the book of Thessalonica, because he's in Thessalonica there in Acts 17. So, yeah, there's some differences in the book of Acts. Revelation, like you say, the first three chapters may have some differences, but ultimately then Revelation's going to pick up and you know, there's gonna be some, maybe some nuanced differences with the eschatological stuff, but in the sense that there's not gonna be the concept of the church, like local churches or whatever, not that there's really that concept too much. But yeah, I mean, some of these other books, like the books written to churches are gonna be different, and they're gonna be, there's maybe some similar principles, but the Bible as we know it is gonna be different. Is there gonna be any differences in the Old Testament? I know, I just, so for those of you that are listening, I just asked Caleb a question that we had not talked about prior, and, because we do actually talk about some of this stuff prior to getting on here, but then sometimes we're just kind of going as we are, but I just threw that question out, and Caleb's look was like, I don't know where that came from, Deet, so let me think about that. So that was, what I just did was like 30 seconds of an interlude to let Caleb's brain download to go. Okay, so, I don't know how much it would change in the sense of if there was no church because the Old Testament doesn't really talk a lot about the church because Paul refers to it as a mystery. However, if we're playing this mind game, let's just logically fill this out, it might be different in the sense that he might not have Israel. So, if he's so focused on the individual, there's no collective. Well, then he wouldn't be working with the collective. It would always be individual. So there's no such thing as group. So the Old Testament might not have the concept of group. It might just be, hey, people, some guy's coming, right, from this family. So just watch this family. No. Yeah. But as far as like the Old Testament would go, I couldn't see there would be a lot of change because you didn't really see the church in the Old Testament. But there would be a lot of similar principles. Yeah, we're obviously pointing to the Messiah. That's not going to change. We're obviously pointing to the character and nature of God. That's not going to change. So anything about God, anything theological, God, theology proper, Christology, pneumatology, that's all going to be the same through the Old Testament. But the only thing that I think would be different is that God would be consistent, right? More of an individualistic focus. Yeah, which then would change the tenor of how we talk to each other, how we relate. So, I think that's kind of one of the things that I've been thinking about through all of these conversations is we would become very individualistic, very self-centered. My relationship with God is the most important thing. You deal with yourself, let me deal with myself. And so, there'd be more of an island. Each person is an island. And so, yeah, just thinking of the New Testament, The emphasis is on loving one another, gathering together, helping each other, growing the edification. And so, that's what makes this so weird, right? That's what makes this particular issue on the scriptures so interesting, because we would be jettisoning a large amount of New Testament text. Yeah, like half of it, at least. Yeah. I mean, we would still have the Gospels, like you said. We might have the story of Paul, but that would look different. We'd have Philemon. Yeah. It couldn't be Timothy, couldn't be Titus, right? Because those are about pastors in a church. I mean, maybe 2 John, whether you consider that a person or a church, we'll just give it as a person, right? Jude, maybe. I mean, he doesn't really specify. Book of Hebrews, that's to a group. So like, all of it is group, group, group, group, group. And yeah, how they would address issues, that would be really interesting because If you remember in Acts 15, there's all of a sudden this Judaizer heresy. The churches got together and said, we're sending you to Jerusalem to form a council. Okay, let's say there's no local church. There's this problem. What do you do? Yeah, how do you navigate through that? How do you deal with some of that stuff and engage? Again, I think there's a brilliant genius, as we keep saying, of the church, of the local church being able to be the place and the means and the mechanism by which we live out our Christian faith, we live out our Christian walk. You know, with the scriptures being different, I mean, here's a reality, other than Philemon, honestly, Paul's influence kind of goes away. Right. I mean, oddly enough. Now, again, he may have written different principled things. Instead of Romans, it's an individual, I'd say. I mean, most of those books are written by Paul and Paul's focus on the church, Paul's emphasis of the church. Does Paul have the ministry he has if the church doesn't exist, if there is no local church? I think Paul is diminished. And again, not that we have the local church in order to magnify Paul, because Paul would obviously say, like, dude, he must increase. I need to decrease. I'm the chiefest of sinners. So I think Paul, we know his humility and his nature, but obviously the impact and influence of the Apostle Paul is greatly diminished. And as you think through the other books of the Bible that are written, some of those guys are more diminished. The role of the apostles is diminished as they're going out. I mean, they're going out to bear witness of Christ, but there's so much of the local church that is dependent upon the apostles. I just think, I think it looks different and really what it does is the local church gives, it gives a, I don't want to say that, be careful how I mention this or say this, but it really platforms, to use a current language, it really platforms the apostles to be able to let them do their thing and do their ministry. Even though platforming is like, you know, like we don't want to think about platforming as in like, wow, somebody else. Right. Man, I'd love a summer home, but even a shack by the highway costs more than I'll ever make. Caleb, you sound just like me a year ago. Stressed out about housing, dreaming big, stuck in reality. Yeah? What changed? Like, did you win the lottery or something? No, better. My Uncle Bob told me about realistic estate. Realistic what now? Realistic estate. It's a real estate without the hassle. No mortgage, no maintenance, no taxes. Just pick a dream home, pay a tiny upkeep fee, and boom, you own it digitally. So what, wait, I just pretend to have a house? No, man, you experience it. Mirage Incorporated sends you these special VR glasses, and when you put them on, bam, you're standing in your luxury home, feeling the ocean breeze, hearing the waves, sitting by your infinity pool. Wait, so I can have a beachfront mansion without going broke? Exactly! I got myself a penthouse in New York, a lake house in the mountains, and a beach villa. Anytime I need an escape, I just put on my glasses and boom! Instant vacation. Okay, okay, okay. But is it really that good? I mean, it's just VR, right? Trust me, Caleb. Once you try it, you won't care if it's virtual. It feels real. Why struggle when you can own realistic estate where your dreams feel tangible? As I was thinking of it, so I was trying to put myself in a world where there is no church and you have guys like Peter, Paul, John, right? So what would they probably do? They would probably be more, I don't know, probably a little bit more doctrinal, right? So they're writing more doctrines, like general doctrines, probably more like a systematic theology. might be more sermonic, right? So, like, they're just, I preached a sermon, you know, and so it would be like the transcript of the sermon. Part of those five that didn't really change, the gospel, preaching, evangelism, discipleship. Yeah. And so, and the principles would probably still be the same. I think there would still be a lot of, like, love one another. Right. I could see a lot of, you need to be really intentional, really focusing on, you need to be intentional, you need to grow. This is what makes it hard, because there is a local church, and all those books are written, and if you don't understand that they're written to a local church, they really don't make sense. Right. Right. And I think that may be some of the biblical illiteracy that we're facing in the modern churches. A lot of people do think that they're just individual letters that God wrote to them. Like, God wrote me a love letter. Right. The book of Philippians. And so I always read it with the lens of like, He wrote this specifically to me. To me, right? I can do all things. I can do all things through Christ Jesus. Not God can, you know, not the principle. Makes us the focus. In a sense, we're talking about this, and I think a lot of people go, well, what would change in the Bible? Well, everything would change, right? Because when you understand it's in the context of a church, context of a situation, in the context of Paul's writing to a group of believers, well, then that changes, because it puts it in you have to be living in a community of believers, the local church, in order for them to really be understood properly. You remove that and you just go, it's just all about me. Well, then you're misreading it. So plug, you know, we're using that thing, plug back in the church. Plug the church back in. Yeah, you can't understand the New Testament without the church. Right. And it has to be understood in light of it. Yeah, the community nature, if you will, of the Pauline epistles and all the books of the Bible that are written in the New Testament about how we live out our life in community. Yeah. How we live out our life with other fellow believers. And so the person who we keep referencing, you know, this person who's sitting in his, you know, lazy boy with a, you know, cold drink saying, I'm just going to watch something on YouTube. It's not that any of those Pauline epistles that we listed are not applicable for him or her. There is application, obviously, but the intent of those passages of Scripture or books of Scripture is that they be read, interpreted, preached, understood in a body of believers in a community context and to isolate them out or to pull them out and to just say, well, this is all about me or this is, you know, whatever the case may be. It's like, I'm sure I'm gonna offend somebody with this comment, but do it. I'll say it anyway. It's like, you know, the song, you know, when he was on the cross, I was on his mind. Okay, I get what that song is trying to say, but I think there's a danger in that concept of like it takes the focus off of the work of Christ and it puts it on me. I'm more like now the, not the hero, but I'm the focus of that, where obviously the focus needs to be on Christ. But if I'm sitting in my Lazy Boy, I've got a cold drink, I'm watching something on YouTube, and I'm trying to do, oh, they're going through Ephesians or Philippians, Galatians, I am not understanding that or living that out or applying that passage of scripture in the way it was really intended. I'm trying to say, oh, that was all about me. And as opposed to, how do I take those biblical principles meant within the concept of a body of believers of a church and play that out and live that out for the way that Paul intended it and the way Christ intended it? Absolutely. you know and we keep on talking about philemon like you know they'd all be like philemon well philemon can only be understood in light of the church in Colossae, right? So like, Paul's writing to Philemon because his slave ran away. And he's like, hey, your slave just by the sovereignty of God happened to be in the same jail cell as I did, got saved, right? And he's sending him back. And he's like, hey, this is a brother, right? This is a brother, accept him into the church, right? Bring him into the community. So even Philemon would be different, right? It would be, Forgive him and tell everybody he's forgiven. Relationships are meant to be lived out, not in isolated events, but in the body, in the community, in the life of the church. Yeah, absolutely. You can't live it out in any other way, in any other capacity. I think there's kind of two things that are unfolding in this season as we're walking this through, as we've been journeying through these episodes. One is the brilliant genius of the church. And we know that, again, Christ did it, so therefore it's good. But I think we're seeing it. The brilliant genius of the local church. And second of all, the fact of the matter is, I cannot live my life outside of the community or the life of the local church. I could, it would be justified, if there was no local church. But the fact is, there is a local church. Therefore, I need to be a part of it, because that is where Christ's work is magnified, and that is where I, as a believer, am able to live out what Christ intended for me in my Christian walk. So maybe let's just take a minute or two, I don't know, maybe three, to talk about... Two to five. Okay, we'll take five. So everyone who is listening to this, I mean, ourselves included as we're talking through this, every one of us knows somebody who is like, dude, I'm done with church. I am, I'm jaded, I'm hurt, I'm whatever. You know, whatever thought, whatever issue, whatever reason. I'm gonna do, I'm good, God and I are good, but I'm not good with church. So I'm just gonna sit at home and be in my lazy boy with a cold drink watching it on YouTube. So let's, How do we, how do we help, how do our listeners help that person that they know? I mean, every one of us is going to know somebody like that. How do we help those people? I don't want to say fall back in love with the church, but how do we help them realize like, hey, dude, yeah, that we get it. You've been hurt, but you're actually living in, I would say you're living in sin by not engaging in a local church. the way God intended. Everything that we've talked about, we're showing that God's intention is this, it's like we know that God has intended marriage, a man and a woman, and if you live outside of that constraint, you're living antithetical to God and His will. If you are, quote unquote, living your Christian life apart from or outside of the local church, you are living your life antithetically to what God intended for you as a believer. So how do we help them? Well, first we have to get a credit card, and then we pay for Dave to come out to our house. And we just go, sick of Dave. Sick of Dave. Go, go, Dave, go. Yeah, but it's gotta be a brand new credit card. Well, so, I don't know. In dealing with people like this, because we all deal with people like this, because I know people like this, you have to come, you realize the great arrogance of these people, right? The great arrogance. And so I don't know how you humble somebody. I really don't. I mean, I've tried to humble people. Not good. Right. It's not good. It only works when Christ does it. Right. Only through the Spirit. Yeah, only through the Spirit. So I'll say that caveat, right? So that caveat is there's gotta be a huge heart change. But the question is, how does God change heart? Well, it's through scripture. And so, there would be certain passages that you would point to and you would go, because all of the passages deal with church, people in a church, you would point them to passages like Hebrews 10, right? Do not forsake the assembling together. And in that passage it says, do not forsake the assembling of the other, which is the habit of some. Right? Right. So, like, we're dealing with this issue. Like, yeah, people are done with church and we might think this is like a new phenomenon, right? Right. Obviously, it's been around for a while. It's been around since the apostles, right? Yeah. The apostles probably sat around going, How do we help? How do we get those guys in the church? How do we get them involved in the community? So I would say that. I would also say that there's a lot of people who are hurt by churches. Sure, yep. And we dealt with that in season one. We dealt with that in season one. We dealt with that in season two. There's certain things that happen inside of the life of a church that hurt people. I totally get it. I've been hurt by Christians. I've hurt Christians. I think it's... I'm going to get in trouble here. I think a lot of it's just, you just got to grow up. Right. It's not about you. It's not about you. You know, I mean, you just got to go, I'm going to be the adult. Yeah. And I'm going to try to amend relationships. Right. There's really no relationship where you've been hurt too bad that you can't try to seek amends, right? Like, I mean, there's always something that you can do. And if you're going to be Christ-like, well, Christ's best friends turned on Him. Right. You know, one of the 12 turned Him in. Exactly, yeah. So, like, and what did Jesus say as they were crucifying? Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do. So, In a sense, it's trying to get them to understand the extent of grace that's given to them by Christ and say, if you're not extending the same amount of grace that Jesus extends to you, then you really don't love. Right. Yeah, he's the definition of love, he's the definition of righteousness. He is, yeah, and I think, so, okay, so I'm usually not the good cop, I'm usually the bad cop, but to balance what Caleb just said about to grow up, I would echo. Maybe somebody sends you this link to this episode because you're the person who's sitting in your Lazy Boy with a cold drink watching YouTube and that's what you're calling church. I would echo Caleb's thought, grow up, get involved in church. But we would also then have, and I know Caleb would agree with this, we would have the caveat that says, listen, if you were part of a church that was abusive or unhealthy or unbiblical, doing things that is not okay, we are not suggesting you have to go to that church. We're saying you need to find a local church that is healthy, that is preaching the word of God, that is gonna be gracious. it's going to help you, and it's going to come around you, and it's going to love you, and care for you, and nurture you. So it's not just about like, dude, you have to go back and figure it out at that church. It's find that healthy, biblical caring. I have a hard time believing with all the churches that we have in America, if you're listening in America, that you're going to convince us that within 30 miles of your house there is not a local church where you can find the grace and the health and the biblical nourishment that you need. I believe that you will find that. But I think most people, you know, they've been hurt by a church or two or three. And so then they're like, well, I'm just calling it quits. The rest of my life, you know, God, I've heard this. I mean, I know you've heard it, Caleb. God and I are good, but I'm not cool with this bride. Well, I don't think you can be good with that. I don't think that's a legit statement. And you have been hurt, sure. We understand that. We get that. And I'm sorry for the fact that you've been hurt. But to Kayla's point, grow up and find a church that will help you. and show you grace and bring you along. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's good nuance. Yeah, of course, I agree with that. And I've often told people, you find the best church in the area, right? Like, okay, you're never gonna find the perfect place. Yeah. But you're going to find, you can find a place where you can plug in, where you can grow, where there's going to be growth. And that's, you find the best, you find the best situation. And so, sometimes that might mean you go to a place that might not align with you perfectly doctrinally. Right now. Right now. Yeah. And that's okay. And I think God would want you to go into those places and edify and not cause division and not try to change the church, but just go in and say, I'm here to help. I'm here to grow. I'm going to fellowship with my brothers and sisters. I don't think you have to change your theology, but I don't think you try to go in and upset. And you know what? If another church is closer to you doctrinally, planted. I think you can talk to the leadership in a way that honors the Lord and say, I'm gonna go to the place that aligns with me more doctrinally. I still want to fellowship with you and see you as part of the team. It's not a competition here. I just think they're they're closer to me doctrinally. And I don't know of a pastor who does not appreciate that conversation and goes, yeah, no, we totally embrace that. And maybe it's a stair-step process. So you find a church that is maybe it does a better job of loving on you, showing grace to you, and meeting you where you're at. And then eventually, you're like, okay, that was what I needed. I'm at a more stable spot, and then I can find that church now that maybe is more aligned doctrinally or theologically or whatever. So I do think there is an element of kind of a process that can be in place at times.