Imagine, if you will, a world unlike anything you have ever known or experienced. A world without Sunday morning gatherings, without the echo of hymns and sanctuaries, without pulpits, pews, or the sounds of a preacher's voice calling souls to redemption. A world where no deacons serve, and no pastors shepherd, and no congregation unites in prayer. In this reality, the church as we know it never was. It is not history nor memory, it is nothing more than a figment of imagination. You are about to step beyond the veil into a dimension where faith has no fellowship, where the body has no unity, and where hope walks alone. Welcome to For the Love of the Church, Season 3. So we continue thinking through this. We just thought through the ordinances, communion, baptism, and the impact of that. And this was the one I was really looking forward to this season, because, I mean, this is near and dear to my heart. You know, polity, governance. how the church structured, how the church functions. And so thinking through in this hypothetical situation, hypothetical scenario, the local church does not exist. How does that impact the two offices? So we looked at the two ordinances, looking at the two offices of the pastor and the deacon. And I think what we have to conclude in this theoretical scenario, the local church does not exist. Pastors and deacons do not exist. It's kind of a shocking thought because if we've been involved in church at all, we can all have different church experiences, different things, different concepts, different ideas, whatever. But pastors and deacons are kind of like the main thing. I mean, like every church has at least one pastor and has a deacon or two or three. And so this is so integral in our concept of the local church that if we remove the local church from our equation in this hypothetical situation, and we think about this reality that there are no pastors and deacons, and then what does that reality mean as we kind of explode that out, if you will? And so that's a good topic for us to think about for the next few minutes. Yeah, well, you know, there's a lot that would change, right? Because of course there's a lot of bad pastors and a lot of bad deacons out there, right? And unfortunately we probably run into... average to bad more than we run into exceptional, right? I mean, that's probably the case, right? There's some guys that should never be pastor, and they're given that position. But you just think about what a pastor does, and you think about what deacons do. Pastors are there to what? Keep the sheep together, help feed them, help protect them. help direct them in the way that they should go. Yeah. There's the four roles of the pastor. There's the presbyteros. He makes the decisions. He's kind of a, you know, it's a governing component. There's the episkopos. That's the overseer role where he's looking out, looking in, you know, looking at what are the threats that are coming to the church? What are the problems within the church? What are, you know, Philippians 4, Syntyche and Yodie aren't getting along. I'm trying to help them get along. So the Episcopal role of the pastor and then there's the point main role the shepherding role. That's the nurturing caring loving, you know, I'm going to sit on your on your couch with you and hold your hand and pray for you care for you. And then the oikonomos role, I'm gonna steward, you know, steward the resources that God has given to us within the local assembly. So yeah, all those are- They're gone. They're gone. Yeah, and I don't know. If something goes bad, things are going bad, somebody's dying, things are going bad, I'm calling pastors. Yeah. Right, I mean, that's who I'm gonna call elders, right? Something's going on, I'm calling the other elder here. and there's that important role of advice that they give that that steadying voice and comfort and just somebody there and there's numerous times I've walked into hospital rooms and I remember one time the family had to make a really big decision right and I have no medical expertise and the doctor gave them the solutions and they looked at me and they said pastor what would you do? And you're the deciding voice of what we should do. So there is that comfort from that one guy. He's here to lead us. And so you remove that, you remove all of that. It's basically like the end of the book of Judges. Everybody did what they thought was right in their own eyes because there was no kid. It's a free for all. You gotta take care of yourself. You gotta engage yourself. And I think, I don't think that we're wrong in this scenario, this hypothetical scenario, as we look through this, to say there are no pastors. It doesn't mean that there aren't people who have a shepherding heart. It doesn't mean that there aren't people who know how to make decisions. But it does mean that the office, the actual noun function of pastor or deacon is gone because those are given exclusively to the church in order to govern and facilitate and administrate the functionality of the local church. So removing the local church from the equation, we were removing pastors and deacons from the equation. And like you said, you're kind of on this like, hey, we're just kind of floating out here on our own, trying to figure it out. And hopefully we can, hopefully we can encourage each other, but there's no Pastor Caleb to call. I might be able to call Caleb and say, I'm in the hospital, can you come pray with me or be with me? But you're just gonna come as a friend. You're just gonna come as a person. But there isn't that, and not that there's some magical, component of being a pastor, but there is a God-given role and responsibility and function that is tied, inherently tied, within the local church. Yeah, and then you think about the deacon, right? what they were created in Acts because people weren't getting the resources, right? So there was resources allocated, but it wasn't evenly being distributed. There wasn't this constant helping, right? So a lot of the stuff that people get help from the church is really, biblically from the hands of the group of deacon and I don't know about you Dave but you know a lot of times we talk about pastor deacon or whatever I really don't care what their names are right you call them whatever you want right as long as they function in a biblical sense I I prefer using biblical words with biblical definitions I prefer that Although I get some people who don't do that. And so you might have a different name for that office of what it does. So for me, that office of deacon is the one that helps the leadership who does the oversight, right? They're kind of in charge of those individual ministries and responsible for those individual ministries. So you lose that. I mean, you lose that. Okay, somebody needs help. Somebody breaks their leg, they're in the hospital, They can't get food. The church does what? What does a local church normally do? They bring over food. Yeah, they start a mail train. Yeah. Who does that? Who does that now? There's no local church. Who do you call? You call your neighbors? You expect your neighbors now to do that? Right. You can't call Ghostbusters. Can't call Ghostbusters. Sorry. Who are you going to call? Ghostbusters! But you can't call the church. Who are you going to call? You just have to call a friend. You have to call somebody and hope that they can do it. Hopefully you have a large enough network. that you know of believers that you could go, hey, but you gotta call each individual one, right? Yeah, or hope that they call. Yeah, it's much less efficient. Yes. It's much less effective. Again, you know, we've talked about this through the last couple of episodes, the brilliance of the local church, the magnitude impact of the local church, I mean, all of these things as we're kind of starting to unfold this season and starting to unfold these different concepts, I think what the common theme should be is like, well, man, I wanna wake up from this bad dream that the local church doesn't exist, and I can't wait to run to the local church to be able to participate and be involved and have all of the benefits, this brilliant genius of the local church by which we as believers get to play out on a daily basis all the things that God has for us. It's really a remarkable thing for us to think about and process through. Yeah, and as I think about the church, and I think about people in the modern church age, there is a growing movement, at least out here in the Pacific Northwest, of home churches. Yeah. And what that means is not somebody's trying to plant a church and it starts in a home. Right. But basically, a whole bunch of people go, all the churches here are bunk. Right. A whole bunch of us families, we're going to get together. We're going to sing a couple songs. We're going to pray. That's it. Then we walk out, right? So they essentially function as if there is no such thing as a local church. Right. But I would contend that one of the distinguishing marks of a church, of a healthy, vibrant church, of a church that moves from its being planted to it, is that it has its own structure of leadership. Yeah. And what makes it healthy is the more it aligns itself with God's word, right? Not that it aligns itself with a particular denomination. So, what was Paul's advice to Titus? Go into every city and appoint elders, pastors, right? Those people. And so, yeah, you lose that pastoral care, that elder care, that is significant because Pastors and elders are gifted to teach, to disciple, and to keep people accountable. And I find that a lot of people that don't like church don't like accountability as well. Yeah. That structure, the positions, the formal framework of governance is what really makes the local church the local church in the standpoint of being able to have those two offices fulfilling their roles, fulfilling their obligations. I don't know if our listeners will remember, and maybe this is like your first Episode or first season you've caught of us you go back and listen to to season one but in season one we talked about this idea that Why can't I just have a bunch of friends over to my house and You know study the Bible sing some songs and call that a church well because this is a there's specific aspects of a church and So in this season, this hypothetical concept of there is no local church, we would say, you know what, bless God, have your friends over, study the Bible, sing some songs. It's not a church. You wouldn't even think about it in the concept of church, because the church doesn't exist. So it's like that word's not even on your radar. but in the concept of the local church doesn't exist, then yeah, have your friends over, and have a couple buddies over, and their wife and kids, and sing some songs that maybe you know, and study the Bible together, and enjoy the fellowship. the koinonia of the body, you're not gonna call it a church because that word isn't in your vocabulary necessarily. And so in contrast to season one when we talked about let's define the church, we defined it as actually coming in under a formal assembly with the pastors and deacons and these official offices that function and govern and rule and oversee and all those things that they do. If the local church doesn't exist, then you actually would do better to move it from an individualism to a group effort, but it's not in any kind of formal setting, and you don't have any kind of formal structure, you don't have any kind of formal rule and authority. 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Yeah, absolutely, and you know, some of the other things I was thinking about too, if you don't have that, one, theologically, you lose that whole idea of Jesus being the great shepherd, right? So like a pastor should exemplify Christ, right? Like 1 Peter 5 talks about shepherds, you know, shepherd them, not out of compulsion, not out of greediness, but you know, being an example. of the chief shepherd right until the chief shepherd comes so that's another aspect you kind of then get this detached when jesus says i'm the good shepherd how right like okay i get that theoretically okay you died on the cross for my sins that's great uh i know that you're sovereign you're going to take care of me right okay but how does he shepherd now well he shepherds by these by calling and raising up elders to shepherd, right? So, they're an extension of the shepherding role of Jesus. And so, you kind of lose that. You kind of lose that, like, when Jesus says, I'm the great shepherd, you go, I guess, okay. Yeah, I mean, theoretically, that's right, because Jesus said it. And so, it would be really difficult to draw that connection, right? And then, that example of a pastor, oh, it's so funny. It's so funny. Even with the little kids at the church, here in Astoria. Like, I wear bow ties. Right. Guess what the little kids wear? They wear bow ties. Why? Well, Pastor Caleb does it. Pastor Caleb says amen at the end of prayers. That's what I'm going to do. Like, they'll do things. They emulate. Yeah, they emulate, right? They emulate mom and dad. They emulate the elders. They emulate the deacons, right? Because they see them. The parents say these guys are examples. Live like them. And so, That's a big responsibility, right? So this isn't to say that there's no such thing as bad pastors. Of course there is. I imagine there's a lot of people who are disillusioned because they go, well, yeah, okay, well, what about that one bad guy? Or all those bad guys are, they're thinking of, you know, failed heroes from the past. Okay, fine, yeah, no, I admit there's bad examples, but that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? Like, there's a reason God has this. and there's a reason why there's qualifications for these guys. But if you don't have the church. What qualifies you to lead a Bible study? What qualifies me to lead a Bible study? That I led a couple people to the Lord? I led more people to the Lord than you? So therefore, that's the influence. What determines who's the hierarchy? I just did more. Right. So there would be no qualification of even then who begins to lead the Bible study. Why do I follow this guy, oppose that guy? Personal preference? Yeah, the charismatic personality is going to win out. Yeah. I mean, like it does today, now, anyway. But I think what you have, and a little bit like what we talked about with the last episode, is Christianity becomes very individual. Yes. Very individual. And so I'm like, dude, you do you, boo-boo. I'm going to do me. And I got a relationship with Christ. You have your relationship with Christ. And I think it's interesting because we hear that language now, okay? So let's plug the local churches back into existence. Like, okay, let's step out of this theoretical for a second. The local church is reality, it does exist, like we know it does. This is the kind of language that we hear from people of, I'm gonna worship God in my own way, I'm gonna sit at home with my lazy boy, with a cold drink and watch something on TV or YouTube or whatever. I'm going to do church in my own way. And the reality is we have Christians, some of them may not even be Christians, but we have Christians who are living today in the reality of the local church actually being in existence, living antithetical to that in such a way that it's almost like the local church does not exist. Right. And they're functioning in such a way that it's like, well, you could do that. That would be legit to do if the local church didn't exist, but the local church does exist. So therefore, this is how God intends you to be involved and what he intends you to do. Absolutely. Yeah. And I, you know, there was a lot of other things I was thinking about with, you know, no pastors, but I was also thinking about with no deacons. I mean, you just think about the issue in Acts, right? There's a whole bunch of ladies who are not getting bred. Right. The widows aren't getting fed. Who cares for the widows now? Yeah, who cares for the widows? Yeah. Now, the entirety of the Christian life now relies on the individual. Like, there's no collective effort anymore. Right. Like, where's the collective effort? It's not, okay, you go out and you work and you give money and you come and you encourage. It's, no, now you're responsible for your own spiritual life. You're responsible for your own example. You're responsible for feeding all the people. Now you're responsible for doing all this. Yeah, it makes it intensely individual. At least with the church, you can share the load. No church. Who are you sharing that load with? You see a problem, you have to go fix it. Yeah, we're at the mercy of the individual person to come and help us. There's no organized collective process anymore. And some people might say, well, man, have you seen my local church? We're not even organized. But even in your disorganization, you are more organized. than if the local church didn't exist. And so, yeah, we are at the mercy of an individual to take care of us, to help us, to come alongside of us. We're obviously at the mercy of our family. Theoretically, our family's gonna take care of us, but let's take, okay, so let's take this, you know, out of the American concept and move it into, I don't know, some, you know, Middle Eastern context or someplace where, you know, maybe Islam is dominant or, you know, Buddhism or Hinduism is dominant where I put my faith and trust in Christ in a family where nobody else has. And now I've got an issue, I've got a problem, I've got some need. Like my family's not coming to my rescue because that break from Islam, that break from Hinduism, that break from whatever religion my family had has actually allowed them to disown me. And so now I'm out there on my own and I have nobody to help me and I don't have even my own biological family to turn to. again, plugging the local church back in and now comes back to life. It's a real thing. This is why I think it's so important for us as we think about, you know, songs like, you know, Bill Gaither wrote, I'm so glad I'm a part of the family of God, where it is actually bringing us into a family That doesn't, I don't want to say it trumps our biological family. Like, I think, you know, we can keep a balance there. But it is, it is in reality, it's a new family. It's a new dynamic of coming alongside and helping one another and encouraging one another and engaging with one another in that process. That's amazing. Yeah, I like that. You know, as you were talking, one of the other things I was thinking about is, okay, so I got, I work with an elder board. There are point of views that that elder brings up to protect the flock that I didn't see. And there's areas in me that he points out that I didn't see where there could be false teaching, right? So, a lot of times pastors are the first and last line of defense against false teaching, right? because we have networks of pastors, there is this idea of we can do this collective research and really kind of have a really good landscape of here are things that are coming. Right. And we can see them because we kind of have our world, we kind of have an academic sense. And so we can see them in the seminaries before they actually take root. If you don't have that shepherd watching out for the wolves. Right. You're looking all the time, right? Right. Where are you gonna go? You would almost, I would see myself without the church, I would become, I'm moving to the mountain, no internet, not getting anything, just me, the Bible, the Holy Spirit, that's it, because who else can I trust? I don't have time to vet every single person to the extent that needs to be vetted. But that's what, elders do that, elders help with that. And I think on that vein too, people are picked off easier by false teachers, by people that are trying to lead us straight. Because you don't have the collective body to help you engage you, help you think through, process through. elder you, shepherd you, protect you, oversee for you, that kind of stuff. There is a protection, there is a support, there is an engagement within the collective body of Christ that without the local church, if the local church doesn't exist, I'm just Dave out here on my own hoping that maybe I bump into Caleb and and he and I can kind of encourage each other, but there's a lot of individualistic exposure, if you will, that I'm just kind of out here ripe for the picking. And, you know, like a lion that separates me from the herd, there is no herd. And so I think the impact of the gospel, the impact of evangelism, all those things, that we talk about, the preaching and the gospel and the evangelism and the discipleship, it's all diminished. It's still there, but the impact is not nearly what it would be under the auspices of the local church and working together as a body. And so I think if the local church doesn't exist, we are really struggling as individuals to just kind of make it on our own and hope that we kind of connect with a friend or we connect with a couple of buddies and that we can make it together but the impact that the local church brings, again, showing us the brilliant genius of the local church as we think about, wow, Christ actually knew what he was doing. We know that, but hopefully this is allowing us to see, wait a minute, if the local church is the brilliant genius then what business do I have saying, I'm just gonna sit in my lazy boy kickback with a cold drink and watch something on YouTube, and I'm gonna call that my Christian life? Like, dude, that's not at all what God intended, nor are you fulfilling what God intended. So get involved, get engaged, be part of that local assembly, that local body, because that is the mechanism by which the greatest impact for the cause of Christ is accomplished. Yeah, amen. Yeah, I think, too, of I'm sure you don't think it would be healthy if people all like you get together, right? Right. We need diversity. We need diversity, right? And that's what Paul says, right? The image that he uses in 1 Corinthians, you know, if everybody's the eye, well, then where's the sense of smell? Where's the sense of hearing? Right. So, yeah, that's kind of what the local church does. Like, you need that diversity. Yeah. But if I just get a pick who's in my church, I'm going to pick people that are kind of like me, right? So we're going to have the same interests, we're going to have the same views, we're going to have the same proclivity to things, right? my church might be a whole bunch of fingers and toes, right? And you might, that's what I'm going to Bible study with, right? I'm going fingers and toes. And you might Bible study with people with noses and eyeballs, right? I mean, like, so you have like, you can't get that diversity that helps you grow and edifies each other. And so, yeah, in a sense, it just, it really would hurt. It really would, it really would feel, bad and hurt and you would feel lost. That would be the sense of lost and hopelessness. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, again, we talked about it at the beginning of this discussion where people have such bad experiences with bad pastors, bad deacons. We get that. However, even in its nastiness or humanity or wickedness, whatever you can think of when you think of the local church, it is still the place that God intends for us to live out our Christian walk with other believers. And so you may have had a bad experience, you may have had a bad situation, but find a local body, find a local assembly where you can thrive and grow and be part of that collective body of believers. And don't be the person who says, I'm just gonna sit in my Lazy Boy and have a cold drink while I watch something on YouTube. Like, dude, if the church doesn't exist, knock yourself out and go for it, because that's what you need to do. but the church does exist and you need to be involved and plugged in to maximize your impact for the cause of Christ.