file a return or an extension. I'm Dave Anthony, Fox News Radio. Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling is a live call-in radio program providing doctrinal dialogue, cultural commentary, and insightful interviews with some of today's foremost Christian authors and leaders. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. The goal of the church and the radio program is to seek the glory of God in the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of the saints. by the ministry of the Word. For more information, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Here with today's edition of Knowing the Truth is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome into this edition of the Knowing the Truth Radio Broadcast. This is Pastor Kevin Bolling. So happy that you joined us on the broadcast today. I hope you had a wonderful week together, weekend together, Lord's Day together with the people of God as the Word of God was preached and God's name was exalted. I know we did. We had just a wonderful time together. We've been looking at the Hebrews. Hebrews chapter 11, and we're specifically looking at the faith of Jacob in our service this past week, and looking at Jacob blessing the children of Joseph, and how was it that faith was found, so much so that it's recorded in the Hebrews chapter 11 as an example of faith. How was it that faith was found in that event? That's where we were at and what we were looking at this past week. It's going to relate a little bit, Hebrews chapter 11, I think is going to relate a little bit to what we talk about on the program today, because another section there dealing, of course, with the act of faith that was wrought earlier on, I think where we talk about with Jacob earlier in his life and the way that he was chosen above Esau. that's going to come out in our discussion today. We're ready for a brand new week of broadcasting here on the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast, and we have a lineup all set for you this week. First of all, today, John Sampson is going to be visiting with us and talking about the subject of Calvinism, Christ, and the cross. And basically, our discussion today is going to be a response to Austin Fisher's book. He wrote a book recently entitled, Young, Restless, and no longer Reformed. That's the title of his book. So we're going to talk about that subject where he says he's no longer Reformed and the reason why he rejects the Reformed doctrines, the doctrines of grace. We'll talk about that on the broadcast today. Tomorrow on the broadcast, J.C. Derrick is going to join me from World Magazine at the first part of the broadcast. And then second up on the broadcast tomorrow, Dr. Charles Hodge will be my guest. He's actually going to be here in town, and he's going to be here in town not for the broadcast tomorrow, but he's going to be coming to town shortly for a conference that's taking place out at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Moore, Duncan. I'll give you some more information about that. as soon as I can, and we certainly will during the broadcast tomorrow as well. But Dr. Hodge is going to be speaking with us tomorrow about the subject of bipolar disorder. He's got a book out called Good Mood, Bad Mood. I've spoke with him before about that book, but we're going to go into a little bit more in depth on the broadcast tomorrow. And then on Thursday, Sam Storm is going to be with us. He's going to be talking about and making the case for amillennialism. He's got a book entitled Kingdom Come, the Amillennial Alternative. And so that should be an interesting discussion with him as well. In all of these discussions that we have, we have a phone line set up for you to be able to partake of the broadcast and participate in the broadcast, I should say. And that way you can just give us a quick call or shoot me an email with your question or your comment. We'll try to work that into our discussion, maybe I should say, especially so with our broadcast today dealing with the subject of Calvinism. We typically get a lot of response from folks on that particular issue. So let me give you the number and the email address right at the top of the broadcast. It's 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-9535. That number is good, toll-free, nationwide. So I'd be happy to take your question or comment via the phone line. I also have an email account set up for that purpose. And the email account is simply KTT Radio. at gmail.com. That's kttradio at gmail.com. Be happy to take your question or comment that way as well. On the broadcast today, I wrote this out on the blog on sermonaudio.com. I wrote that Religion News Service recently ran an article written by Jonathan Merritt entitled, Author Says Calvinism Can't Make Sense of the Cross. And in the article, Merritt conducts an interview with Austin Fisher, who's the author of the book, Young, Restless, and No Longer Reformed. The subtitle is, Black Holes, Love, and a Journey In and Out of Calvinism, Kevin de Young did a review of Fishner's book on his blog, which is listed out there among the other blogs on the Gospel Coalition website. And in the introduction to the review, Kevin de Young provides a brief summary of the book and the major issues that it raises. He writes this, quote, in 11 crisp chapters, Fischer tells the story of how the image of God in the face of Christ compelled him to leave Reformed Christianity behind in favor of a picture of God that is more loving and more satisfying." Fisher embraced Calvinism in high school, but in college he found himself unable to defend it. His difficulties centered on the doctrine of reprobation. We'll talk about that during the broadcast today. Fisher said that he found it impossible to reconcile reprobation with the rest of the Bible. And a key question for Fisher became, quote, does the God of Calvinism accurately depict the God revealed in Jesus? And for Fisher, the answer is a resounding no. Jesus, he says, shows us a, quote, crucified for sinners God, unquote, while Calvinism gives us a, quote, create sinners in order to crucify them God, unquote. Well, thus Fisher concludes then that Calvinism should be rejected. Now on the program today, my guest is John Sampson. John is the pastor of Faith Community Church in Tucson, Arizona. He's the author of the book, Twelve Whatabouts, Answering Common Objections Concerning God's Sovereignty in Election. And John also manages a blog called Affectual Grace. He blogs out there at www.affectualgrace.com. With that, John, welcome back on to the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. Kevin, it's a delight to be on the program with you. correction on your introduction towards me. I pastor King's Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Oh, I don't know where I got that. I've not been the pastor down in Tucson, although I've had quite a few links with the church down there. Great to be on your show and looking forward to our discussion together. OK, thank you for that correction. I'm not quite sure what I did in a cut and paste, I guess. I put the wrong one on there. I got it from out there somewhere. But thank you for the correction. We appreciate it. John, as we start this discussion, let me let you, first of all, just give a little bit of maybe your own synopsis. of just what you know about this book and maybe some of the reviews or some of the interviews that you may have seen or heard regarding this and this story. And then, after we just give some general comment, then I think we can start to delve down after that into some of the major points that are pointed out here in the book. How does that sound? That sounds great. I'm very much aware of the book by Austin Fisher, as you've mentioned. I've not read it, but I've heard him interviewed a couple of times. I'm aware of his arguments. The reason I haven't read the book is because I didn't see him pointing to scripture, to biblical passage, but more to presuppositions, to ideas he had, to feelings he had, to just a general sense of what he thinks the Bible says. And so there wasn't anything that drew me to say, you know what, he's made an amazing biblical argument here that I need to delve into. It's just a general concept that I feel missed the mark of Scripture, because I'm sure your viewers would and listeners would agree, it's what Scripture says that is the driving point, or should be the driving point of anyone's theology, rather than our personal preferences, feelings, and intuitions about who we think God is. Because we're liable to make a God in our own image if we have not made Scripture the standard. Well, John, let me say to that point that Kevin DeYoung has come to a similar conclusion. He gives a very fair, I think, review. It's a pretty lengthy review. He spends more time on it than, I think, many of the other reviews that we typically see out on a blog post. So I think he gives it a very fair review, but he basically makes the same point that he is not really given, Fisher did not really give a rigorous exegesis of specific text of scriptures. He speaks more in some generalities. He also kind of raises some straw men. He builds a caricature of what true Calvinism is, and then he proceeds kind of to dismiss that. A second point that he brings up that I think is really valid as well is, he doesn't really then address all the problems that he is going to have with the more Arminian approach to the Scriptures. It's as if, you know, I rid myself of Calvinism and now, you know, the world is good, but he's got all kinds of texts of Scriptures, dozens of texts, that he's going to have to then, you know, come up with an interpretation of those texts, like John 6 and so forth, that he's going to have to deal with. And so, you know, just dismissing it is not good enough. You're still going to have to then deal with various texts of Scripture. Is that correct? Very, very true. I would just jump on some of the things I know he has said, and the quotes I've read of the book, is that Mr. Fisher is very keen to talk about the fact that he doesn't now see the Calvinistic God, as he would call him or frame him, as good, and yet It's Austin Fisher who's defining good rather than the Bible. And the Bible makes it clear God is good, but it also declares the way he operates, what his plans are, what they are from eternity. And what really troubles me in the interview I've heard of him is that he's willing to sacrifice God's knowledge of the future, his exhaustive knowledge of the future on the altar of his feelings about God. He said he's more than willing to at least allow for the idea of open theism, which is the idea that the heresy, that God does not know the future exhaustively. He does not know the future because the future does not exist. You've got a huge problem with the God of the Bible there, because we have something called predictive prophecy, where God says, this is what will happen, even to the naming of a certain king who will live centuries in advance as you find in the book of isaiah the predictions about his messiah who he is where he'll be how he'll die how he'll be raised from the dead uh we've got the book of revelation which is uh certainly a book about the end times and god knows the fugees the alpha and omega but on the altar of Mr. Fisher's feelings about God, he's more than willing to at least allow for the idea that God doesn't know the future. And so we have something that I would say, run for your life, when you hear that kind of an approach, an approach that would allow for God to not know the future. And the problem that Mr. Fisher has is exactly as you've described, Kevin. He can dismiss Calvinism in his mind, but the questions that Calvinism answers that he doesn't like, he still has to answer himself. Because even in his own system, if you do allow for a God who knows the future, And Mr. Fisher doesn't seem to be absolutely certain of his stance on this. But if you do allow for a God who knows the future, which is the normal Arminian position, you still have a God who knows the future exhaustively and infallibly. He knows exactly what will happen, and he's always known it. He's never learned anything. And so, if we were to go back in time and say, God, can we interview you before you ever say the words, let there be light, and start the whole process of creation, and we were to ask God, what do you know about the future? His answer would be everything. So you know about the fact that Adam will sin. It's not going to be a shock to you. Oh, yes. And you're still going to go and create. Yes. And that everyone who's born of Adam will be born sinners, dead in trespasses and sins. Yes. And you know that Christ will need to come as savior. Oh yeah, he's the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Absolutely. And you know there's going to be a heaven and you know there's going to be a hell for some people. Yes. Even in the Armenian position, he not only knows there will be a hell, but he knows people will go there and he knows their identity. Even in Mr. Fisher's position, he has to answer the question of reprobation. And he doesn't. Well, I think that as we go on in our conversation here, I just want to make sure that we're familiar and our listeners are familiar with a couple of key terms. When we're talking about this subject here, we're basically talking about the doctrine, first of all, of predestination. And in its widest sense, when we talk about predestination, we're talking about a theological doctrine, as Lorraine Bettner put it, that from all eternity, God has foreordained all things which come to pass. And so when we talk about just very broadly, God not only knows all things, but he has foreordained all things that come to pass. In another sense, in a much more narrow sense, we find, and this is how we're probably looking at the doctrine of predestination in our discussion today, we're looking at it as A. A. Hodge described it. He spoke about it as being designating only the counsel of God concerning fallen men. including the sovereign election of some, and the most righteous reprobation of the rest." Now, it's those two concepts, then, that we're thinking about, you know, the idea of election, that God has elected some, and the Scripture presents that as being that God has elected them for His own good pleasure. It's not conditional. It doesn't rest upon any foreseen act on the part of those that are elected, we see in the Scripture. He doesn't look down the tunnel of time and see that this person is going to be good, and then on that basis elect them to be saved. So, this is the one half of the equation, is election. The other half, that people are probably not as familiar with, is the idea of reprobation. And reprobation is basically talking about that, in distinction from election, in which there's no account of the personal deserts of the objects of it, reprobation, while it's certainly still sovereign in God's control, it is also judicial in that it does take into account of the guilt of the sinner. And this is what we see in the Westminster Confession of Faith in chapter 3 and in section 7. It says this, The rest of mankind, this is talking about reprobation, he elected some unto himself, but the rest of mankind God was pleased according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will. whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleases for the glory of his sovereign power over the creatures to pass by and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sins to the praise of his glorious justice." And so the idea, and that's backed up in Scripture by Romans chapter 9. And in Romans chapter 9, you know, we find the idea that, you know, this is the sovereign choice of God. Let me read this. Bear with me, John. I'm just going to read this section and then get your comment on all that I said. But Romans, chapter 9, and in verse 11 through 18, we read this. It says, For the children being not yet born, this is what I was referring to when I spoke about the idea of Hebrews, chapter 11, talking about Rebekah and her trying to reconciled the idea of Jacob and Esau. And so anyways, it says this here, it says, For it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for the same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and on whom he will he hardeneth." So, John, it seems to me that the issue of reprobation is, and what Mr. Fisher is stumbling at, is that he's implying that all the subjects are innocent before God, and then God is ascribing guilt and punishment to them, when the truth is, is no man goes to hell except for his sins, that he's not innocent before God. He is a guilty, hell-deserving sinner, and God is just, in his reprobation, withholding the showing of his mercy to them. Is that fair to say? That's very fair to say, and I think your... analysis is absolutely correct, and to point your audience to Romans 9 is so, so helpful, because it's there that we meet with the Mount Everest of all biblical text that shows God's complete sovereignty in the matter of salvation. That is the theme right from Romans 8, 28, right on through into Chapter 9, and Paul's answering the question of if God is this one who doesn't let any of his elect fall they all come all those who are justified are glorified and they were foreknown predestined and called what about the jews and he says in romans 9 6 not all israel is israel and he's answering that particular question, and I would just point people to spend some time in the text there. And that is the point. It's the text of Scripture that should be the thing we go to rather than our feelings, because I remember wrestling as a former Arminian with Romans 9 and waking up every morning and finding it was still there, just like Mount Everest. It's still there. And that is the God who exists. That is the only God out there, the God who authored Romans 9. And it's in harmony with Romans 10, which tells us to go preach the gospel to everyone out there. How shall they hear without a preacher? That is not, you know, in any sense the issue. But in terms of the Romans 9 passage, it's It's stunning. It's saying that God has every right to have mercy on whom he will, and he does not in any way shirk from ascribing to himself that particular stance. He has the right as the sovereign king to dispense mercy as he sees fit, and what he sees amongst humanity is not only people lost in sin, but rebellious. We're not only avoiding God, we're living every breath in defiance of God, and God in his mercy by very definition, mercy is never and can never be demanded. When the angels fell, there was no plan of redemption for them. God did not become an angel to save angels. And so every fallen angel remains fallen and will be in judgment forever under the wrath of God. And no holy angel of God has ever missed a beat and said, that's not fair. It's just the way it is. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. He has every right to dispense mercy as he wills. If a governor sees ten people on death row, he does not have to have mercy on any of them. He can just say, you know what, you've done what you did, and the court has found you guilty, and I'm very much more than prepared to allow justice to take its course. For God to save or have mercy on anyone is unspeakable mercy. What should shock us when we read Romans 9 is not that God hated Esau, but He loved Jacob. There's no reason for it. There's nothing in Jacob that would say, well, that was the reason that God did that. It was for His own pleasure. And here's what I find helpful, that hopefully will be helpful to your listening audiences. You remember, I'm sure everyone's just listening, about two things that happened in the 16th century. The Protestant Reformation, which is what we love to talk about because I believe God restored the biblical gospel back to the church en masse. He really did. And the Copernican Revolution. And that was when Nicolaus Copernicus 1543 published his treatise where he presented a new view of the world the Helio or heliocentric model the Sun is central in the solar system and before that before Copernicus everyone believed the earth was the very center of the universe but Copernicus was able to prove otherwise that the Sun not the earth is central in the solar system and that was such a dramatic change for science and It shook both the religious and the scientific world. The ramifications were absolutely dramatic and our view of the world was forever changed. By looking through Copernicus' telescope, the traditions of man Both in the realm of science and religion were so strong that many people didn't even want to look through the telescope. Scientists and religionists. They did not wish to. Yet Copernicus was right and his revolutionary idea was needed if we were going to make progress as the human race in understanding the world around us. I say all that to say this. My own understanding was something like a Copernican revolution to realize it's God who's at the center. It's God who is the source. It's God who is the one who has masterminded his plan for the ages, for the universe, for the world, for my life. And it's not me at the center of the solar system, it's God. It's not me at the center of my life, it's God. All things were created for Him, for His pleasure. They are and were created, Revelation 4 says. And that was the big shift. And I know when many people, I know when my own heart and mind was wrestling with these things, there was this feeling It just doesn't seem right and fair that God would have mercy on one and pass over another. My view of God was that there was this kind of peanut butter spread love of God that was the same for everybody. And yet, even in humanity's dealings, we're to recognize distinctions in love. A husband is to love his wife better than everyone else's wife. He used to love his children better than everyone else's children. By the way, I'm just celebrating today my one-month anniversary with my lovely wife, Linda, so I wanted to say hello to her. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. But in the sense, God has the right to have to set his love on his son in a way he does not for the pigeon on my roof and as silly as that sounds we've got to say that we've got to say that God has made us in his image with distinctives in our love and he's had the same in his own heart and mind to say I will have mercy I will set my love on some people for eternity through my mercy alone, redeeming them, making them a people for my son who will praise my son for all eternity. And when we look at it with man-centered glasses on and say, I'm not sure how I feel about that, we are immediately dealing with the God of the Bible and find ourselves resisting him. Because God has always been this way. God chose Abraham. not Hammurabi down the street. He chose Israel, not the Amalekites. Amos 3.2 says, you only, talking of Israel, have I known amongst the nations, talking about a redemptive knowing, a salvific knowing. He saved Israel and he did not save the Chinese. He had a plan for Israel, and he redeemed Israel, and so it is in the New Testament as well. And he has every right to leave people in their open, hostile rebellion, and for others, In unspeakable grace, he opens up their eyes to see the beauty of Christ so that they want him. But in that sense, you're absolutely right. The only people who are redeemed are rank sinners, and no one can boast at the throne of God. I'm here by my amazing choice, but we're here because of amazing grace. Amen. And John, you're describing there what the rest of Romans chapter 9 has to say. We'll talk a little bit more about that when we come back from the break. Let me tell the listening audience we're speaking with John Sampson. John is the pastor of King's Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He's also the author of a book that we've been discussing a little bit during the broadcast today, or some of the objections that people raise about Calvinism, which is the subject of his book. His book is called 12 Whatabouts? Answering Common Objections Concerning God's Sovereignty in Election. We're going to talk more about this subject when we come back from the break. Stay tuned. You don't want to miss it. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. How have Muslim uprisings around the world put the United States in peril? On the next Janet Mefford Show, Robert Spencer from Jihad Watch joins me to talk about his brand new book, Arab Winter Comes to America. And could North Korea launch an EMP attack against us? Dr. Peter Pry from the Task Force on National and Homeland Security will join me, and we'll talk about it. That and a whole lot more next time. Join us for the Janet Mefford Show. This afternoon from 3 to 5 on Christian Talk, 660 and 92.9. What is family? Does family still matter in today's society? Coming to select movie theaters for only one night, Irreplaceable is a powerful documentary that will answer those questions and change the way you think about family. It will also give you hope for real change within our culture. Bring your friends and join us May 6th for this event that will transform how you see family. Get tickets now at irreplaceablethemovie.com. Remember the 70s song, You're So Vain? Well, according to Trace Embry, our kids think it's all about them. Today on Licensed to Parent. I regret to say that in general, we're raising a generation of narcissistic kids by virtue of our non-biblical parenting approaches. If you disagree, then one of four things are likely in play. First, you haven't looked at the stats. Second, you've been taking way too many parenting cues from Oprah and Dr. Phil. Third, your standards are not congruent with a biblical worldview. And fourth, you're doing a great job of parenting, though you don't get out much. If I sound critical, please remember Proverbs 27.6, which says, wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses. Our best chance of knowing how to raise selfless, emotionally healthy kids is to first know God and His Word. Get Trace's free e-book, America's Youth Culture Manifesto, at LicensedToParent.org. You are not a God created by human hands. You are not a God dependent on any mortal. Anything we can give by your plan, that's just the way it is. You all got along from before time began. You were on your throne. You all got along. Well, there you have it. That's Phillips, Craig, and Dean, You Are God Alone. And that's basically what we've been talking about for the last half an hour or so on the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. We've been looking at, as John was describing, John being our guest here, was describing just a few moments ago before we went to break, more of a a God-centered approach versus a man-centered approach. That's basically the difference that we see here when we look at the systems that are used in order to interpret the Word of God, whether you're going to use a Calvinistic system of approach in looking at the Scriptures, is that the system that better reconciles the text that we find in the Word of God, or more of an Arminian approach, whether it's going to be We find that in those two systems, the Calvinistic approach is much more God-centered. God is at the center of the universe. And in the other system, the Arminian system, man is at the center of that approach. We're going to talk more about that in just a couple of moments. I just want to let you know about a couple of things. You just heard the commercial run for the movie that is coming out in theaters. I believe it's May 6th. right up here in front of me, but it's one day only. It's put out by Focus on the Family. It's part of their family project. If you watch the Truth Project at all, I think it was Lesson No. 7. I think there was 12 or 13 lessons there in the Truth Project, and I believe it was Lesson No. 7 that dealt with the subject of the family. This is kind of extracting that teaching from the Truth Project and then expounding upon it and going down into greater depth. The movie is called Irreplaceable. And again, it's coming out May 6th. It is going to be showing here in the area, in the Greenville upstate area, as well as across the country. So if you're listening here in this area, I think it's going to be over at the Hollywood 20. And I think there's another theater, I believe it's in Simpsonville. But let me just say that there is going to be a couple locations here in the area that you can watch it. And then if you're not in this area, just go out to that website from Focus on the Family. Just Google irreplaceable the film. And what you will see there then is a location of all the other films, other locations where that film is going to be shown. They sent me the ability to screen it the other day, so I watched it and it was very good, as Eric Metaxas and John Stone Street and a number of other folks are woven into the documentary. I thought it was very well done and something that you're certainly going to enjoy to go there and see. I also want to make mention, I mentioned that on the broadcast, the second half of the program tomorrow, that I was going to be speaking with Charles Hodge, Dr. Charles Hodge, about the subject of his book, Good Mood, Bad Mood. And I wanted to let you know that there is a seminar coming up. It's going to take place at Redeemer ARP Church out in Moore, Duncan. Their website is www.redeemerarp.org. That's RedeemerARP, stands for Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. And so it's RedeemerARP, all one word, dot O-R-G. And this seminar that they're going to have is taking place on Saturday, April 26th. And so you can get the information right out there on their website as to how you can attend that particular seminar. Let me mention that as we've been talking about this subject today, I referred to Romans chapter 9. And just before we went to the break, I think that John was basically articulating what we find in the verses after the ones that I had just read. I read Romans chapter 9 from 11 to 18, talking about the idea of God's sovereignty in election and God's sovereignty in showing mercy upon those he will show mercy on, which basically can be summed up into two words or two phrases, I should say. One is the passing over of some in the doctrine or the decree of election. That's the idea that it's God's sovereign prerogative to pass over them, meaning that he doesn't pour out his judgment upon them. He rather shows them mercy and grace, much like we see in the Exodus, you know, where he passes over certain homes. Somebody once said that during that the Passover night that God walked with uneven steps. He came upon one home, but not another. He came upon it in judgment, that is. So there's the passing over of some in the doctrine of reprobation, in the decree of election. But then there is, it is God's judgment is passed upon others, other sinners. And the concept is, is no one is sent to hell except for sin. That both are guilty before Almighty God, both have sinned before Almighty God, and so they have the stain of original sin upon them, they have all the actual sins that they have committed, they are both guilty before God. But God chooses, in His infinite mercy and grace, He chooses to pass over some, and not to pass upon them the judgment that is due to them. That's what we're talking about. And John was basically saying that when he was describing the idea of being God-centric versus man-centric, a doctrine that people don't like to hear, and that I think the Apostle addresses in verses 19 and following. He says this in 19, the Apostle Paul writing in Romans chapter 9, He says, thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will? But then the apostle responds, nay, but, O man, who art thou that replyest against God? Shall the thing formed say unto him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus? Hath the potter power over the clay, or of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make the power known, endureth much longsuffering, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?" And in this way we see, you know, the riches of God's glory and His mercy that is being displayed here upon us. John, as we go through this discussion, one of the places that this leads us to, that neither one of us have a good answer for, I don't think, but it leads us to the idea of original sin. And not just original sin, but the origin of sin, I should say. and how sin entered into this world and where sin originated. Neither one of us, we both kind of admit that there is a mystery to this. We know it started with the angels, as you had mentioned earlier on in the broadcast, but even back then we can't quite say definitively how it entered into the world. Let me ask you, what do you say to that about the origin of sin? Gary, I think you got it off over there still. John's mic? Do you? You don't? Hey, John, you still there? Wait a second. Yeah, I see you raising that one, but I thought it was the other one over there for the phone, but I'm not sure. Okay. I'm not going to tell Gary how to run the board. John, I was just wondering if we don't have you there for some reason. Are you still there? Okay, well let me read for a second until we see if we got John on the line there, and if we still have him. Let me read to you what A. A. Hodge said. He said, the origin of sin is an inexplicable mystery, and in that inexplicable mystery that we have, we can say that it originated in the angelic world, and that after the satanic temptation of Eve, it entered into the human race. Genesis 3 records the history of the event, and such passages as 2 Corinthians 11, verse 3, 1 Timothy 2, verse 14, show us that the story is historical. It's not allegorical. You know, some people are saying, well, the whole idea of sin entering into the world is just an allegory, and it's really, you know, real sin didn't actually enter into the world. But that is just not what we see here in this text. We see that sin is not allegorical. It's a historical thing that has taken place. Sin entered the world. by the voluntary act of man, though how a will created positively, wholly, could respond to that wicked temptation, we are not completely clear about. What we do know is that God is not the author of it. God is not the one who made sin, and is not the author of sin, and so we can see that clearly pointed out in the Scripture. God created man upright, but they sought out many inventions. Adam was created with a disposition that was positively bent towards God. When he looked at himself, when he looked at his environment, when he looked at God, he viewed all things with a positive bent towards God. But yet we see in the garden that through the temptation of Eve, sin entered into the world. And that sin, once Adam sinned, then not only did sin then was found in Adam himself, in Adam and Eve, but then in all of their posterity afterwards. The Covenant, the Confession of Faith says it this way, it speaks about, and this is in the Catechism, but it says the covenant being made with Adam, not only for himself, but all mankind sinning in him, fell in him, And, therefore, Adam passed upon all of his posterity the results of his sin, so that everyone who is born of natural generation afterwards is born with the stain of original sin upon their soul. This is what we find in the Scriptures, and that's what the author that we've been talking about, Austin Fisher, is not fully dealing with in his book. He kind of leaves that point hanging, and he doesn't really deal with it fully. I mentioned that Kevin DeYoung, out on the Gospel Coalition blog, had spoke about this a little bit in his closing comment on the blog. He says this, most problematically for Fisher's case, is his perchance for dealing in biblical generalities rather than getting into the weeds of the text. For example, he affirms that, quote, the Bible talks about God's self-glorification a lot, unquote, and he cites nine passages in an end note. But then, the rest of the book criticizes the black hole of a glory-seeking God. What about those texts that Fisher learned when he was Reformed? What do they mean now? You can't acknowledge that the Bible talks about a self-glorification of God a lot and then write a book purporting to debunk the whole notion of the glory-seeking God without looking at any of those texts that relate to God's glory. We've got John back on the line. Let's have John just comment a little bit on what has been said thus far. John, I was talking about how you had pointed out the difference between a God-centric view and a man-centric view, and I talked a little bit about the origin of sin, that it's a mystery to us, so it's like a mystery of losing you on the phone line there just a few moments ago. We don't know the answer to that mystery. We don't know the mystery to the origins of sin either. Your comments? I'd absolutely agree. I think in every Orthodox Christian theology, we need to look at what Scripture says, and as John Calvin advised, where Scripture is silent, it'll be better for us not to speculate. I'm just paraphrasing him, of course, but there's many ideas, there's many views out there, I certainly am not able to speak with authority because I don't know what scripture says or I don't believe scripture addresses that particular question. All we know is sin did enter the world and God is absolutely holy and righteous and good and man is sinful and the angels who sinned were sinful. Where sin came from, I don't know. All I do know is that God has certainly decreed that sin would take place, or else it wouldn't have happened. And yet God had a plan all the way from before time began to send the Savior for all of us sinners. So that's as far as I can go. And then when we see that, And we acknowledge that and we look at the two systems then, Calvinistic viewpoint or the doctrines of grace as we find them in the scripture, they deal with that issue better than the Arminian position. And they deal with so many of the texts then that come up. For instance, John chapter 6 and verse 37 says, all that the Father gives me will come to me. And even further in John 6, 44, we read, no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him and so forth in these texts of scripture. The Arminian struggles with dozens of these types of texts that we find in the Word of God, and kind of just doesn't really fully deal with them in their scheme, yet the Calvinist view acknowledges that we don't have an answer for the original origin of sin, but then deals, I think, deals faithfully with these other texts. Would you agree? I totally agree. The point, I think, too, is that when we look at this issue of God electing some and not electing others, we seem to think that God should be put on trial and answer our questions on this. And Romans 9 is a passage that says God suddenly acknowledges that he does exactly that, and there's no injustice on his part when he does. Men either receive full justice or unspeakable mercy, but no one ever, ever, ever receives injustice from the hands of God. Is there injustice on God's part? He says, God forbid, by no means, for he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. I'll have compassion on whom I have compassion. There is no charge against God for having mercy on some or leaving others to justice. And one of the points of Fischer's book that troubled me was his idea, his concept that Calvinism just negates the message of the cross and the love of God and God being good. And I see the exact opposite in Scripture. I see exactly as you've been saying, the God of the Bible, in great love, sending his son. And this son was on a mission to save the elect. It was sent by the angel to Joseph. You'll call his name Jesus, so he will save his people from their sins. That was the charge and the mandate of the Messiah when he came. He was to save, not merely try to. And such as God is someone who's just trying to do the best he can to save people. But the God of the Bible is one who says from the beginning, it's about me. It's about my glory. And we in our man-centeredness, says, I'm not sure that fits well with me, but that's the God we have to deal with. The heavens declare the glory of God. There are planets out there that we are still yet to know and even see, and they have no bearing on planet Earth. They don't regulate the tides. as the moon does here and has some benefit to us on Earth. There are planets out there that have nothing to do with planet Earth, and especially me and my little life. They're out there, and they're there, God says, for his namesake and for his glory. And that's the reason for the universe. And he says, what I want, what God wants at the end of all things, is to put all of his attributes on display. His love, his mercy, his holiness, His sovereignty, his justice. All of these things. And we think, I'm not sure that fits well with me. Well, we've got to realize that's the God we're dealing with. And only in a universe where some receive mercy and some receive justice, can God's attributes be put on display. We always think, we don't know why God chooses one and not the other. And that's certainly the case. God never explained his choice of Israel and not the Amalekites. He just says, I've had mercy on you. And yet, at the same time, we know the concept that in doing so, he's allowing his mercy to be seen on Israel and his justice to be seen on the others. John, thank you. From a God inspired view of the world, it does make sense. Amen. John, thank you so much for visiting with us today to talk through this important issue. I'm so glad that we took it all the way to the cross because there on the cross we find Christ not just making salvation possible for a group of people. We find him actually securing salvation for a group of people, even the people that have been given to him by the Father. John Sampson, thank you so much for being with us today, brother. My pleasure, my pleasure. John is the pastor again of King's Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Remember this, my friends, that the Lord Jesus Christ said, He said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. We'll see you next time. You've been listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Travelers Rest. For more information about the church and radio ministry, Visit us on the web at knowingthetruth.org. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or Clear Channel Communications. Christian Talks 660. WLFJ Greenville Spartanburg Anderson on AM 660. And now also heard on FM 92.9.