Looking at our world from a theological perspective, this is the Theology Central Podcast, making theology central. Good morning, everyone. It is Saturday, March the 29th, 2025. It is currently 1027 a.m. Central Time, and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. When I play that intro that you're listening to the Theology Central podcast, where we attempt to make theology central. That's a very important distinction of what I try to do here. I try to take a theological understanding and make it central to everything we talk about. We try to talk about everything from a theological perspective. And that sounds, it sounds good. It sounds spiritual. It sounds like, oh, okay, this is a good theology Christian podcast. That's wonderful. But sometimes theology is best discussed in the confines of a seminary or a sanctuary or a church classroom than it is in the context of real life, especially when we talk about tragedy in real life, suffering, pain, sometimes theological discussion it feels almost like it doesn't fit in, right? Because theology likes to sometimes make everything so, like, here's the answer for this, here's the answer for this. Everything seems to be so simple and clear. A pastor stands behind the pulpit and they preach a sermon and they may give you theological answers. They do so authoritatively, as if Everything is simple. Here's an explanation for this. Everything fits into nice little categories and that works while everyone's sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning. That works where you're sitting in a seminary classroom on a Tuesday night or in a church classroom on a Wednesday night. It seems to work. But at some point, theology has to leave the church, leave the seminary classroom, and it has to somehow exist within a world that is filled with pain, suffering, and death. And sometimes theology feels very inadequate in moments like that. And I'm sitting here with an open Bible. And it feels inadequate to address a tragedy that took place, a horrible tragedy. In fact, the horrors of the tragedy are still unfolding. Now I could sit here and give you facts. I could sit here and give you details. In fact, I have an audio clip queued up that I could play the latest news report that dropped just a little while ago. And so you would get up to the minute information. But I have a feeling that if I just give you names, places, numbers, gives you the basic outline, you probably probably wouldn't even blink an eye. You probably just shrug your shoulder and just move on. Right. Because it's. You don't really want to hear about it. And then when I do talk about it, you're going to want me to give you very clear, a theological answer just to make you feel better, to bring some sense of comfort and to make it easy. But this is not going to be a broadcast where I'm going to make anything easy, and I doubt you're going to feel any comfort. But I also feel like I can't just give you the facts of the story. Just read a news article, right? Just like, breaking news, the following happened." Because we're numb to that. So what I've tried to do is I'm going to take this tragedy, I'm going to try to tell you about the tragedy in almost a story form, so that maybe it will have a greater impact, and then we're going to try to discuss Maybe we discuss the weakness of theology to address tragedy? Am I allowed to say that? Because we're supposed to see tragedy, throw a couple of theological concepts at it, and then tell ourselves that everything is good and everything is wonderful, but I don't ever believe it really is. I believe that we live within the... the illusion of certainty and that we have good answers. I don't believe we really do. So I'm going to tell you the story, again, in a more like a storytelling form, and then we'll get into a very important theological discussion. And all of this fits in perfectly with some of the things we've been talking about, about the storms of life metaphor, about why storms, about suffering. In fact, yesterday I was going to do another I was gonna do an episode in regards to a Max Locato book about suffering and why we suffer and why we have trials. I didn't even get to that, but this tragedy occurred in the midst of kind of all of these other discussions and considerations. So are you ready? The date is March the 28th, 2025, midday, Mandalay, Myanmar. March the 28th, 2025, midday, Mandalay, Myanmar. The bustling streets of Mandalay are alive with activity. Vendors call out their wares, children play, and the city's rhythm pulses under the midday sun. The air is thick with the scent of street food and the distant hum of motorbikes. Inside an office building, employees are at their desk, typing away, engaged in conversations, the mundane hum of a typical workday. Inside a school classroom, a teacher writes on the blackboard as students diligently take notes, the chalk soft scratching the only sound accompanying the rustling of papers. Then suddenly, The ground begins to tremble lightly. Pencils roll off the desk. A low, ominous rumble grows louder. Pauses, chalk in hand, eyes widening. Everyone, under your desk now! Students scramble, fear flashing across their faces. Inside the office building, ceiling lights sway. Papers flutter to the floor. The tremors intensify. Employees are gripping the edge of their desk. Someone screams out, is this an earthquake? Someone else says, we need to get out of here. In the streets of Mandalay, buildings begin to sway. Cracks snake through the pavement. The tremors escalate into violent shakes. People scream, running in all directions. A nearby street vendor's cart topples, sending goods sprawling. A historical pagoda, as its spire begins to crumble, bricks cascading down. Inside the school, the ceiling cracks, debris falls, children scream. The teacher, the voice is firm, but even though they're scared to death, they say, stay down, cover your heads. The earthquake subsides, leaving a haunting silence. Dust clouds rise from the debris. The cityscape is altered. Buildings have been reduced to rubble. Streets are littered with wreckage. Survivors emerge, dazed and injured. A mother clutches her child, tears streaking her dust-covered face. A man pulls another from beneath the debris. Rescue workers, both local and international, coordinate efforts, tents are set up, supplies are unloaded. Following the devastating 7.7 magnitude earthquake that struck near Mandalay Mirnamar, second largest city, the death toll has now risen to over 1,600 people. over 1,600 people with thousands injured and many more are still currently missing. Rescue operations are underway, but efforts are hampered by ongoing aftershocks and the extensive destruction. Everyone was going about their normal day. It was just a normal day in Mandalay, Myanmar. Just a normal day, midday. And then all of a sudden, within minutes, everything changes. And now over 1,600 people are dead. Thousands are missing. People are injured. The death toll is expected to increase. I'm not going to say if it's going to increase dramatically, but that's what happened. It was just a normal day. The normal sounds of a city, the normal sounds of people at work or in school and children were once there are gone. I mean, their life is over. Now you take that scene. You take that destruction, you take that death, you take the suffering that's going on right now as you're doing whatever you're doing. on this Saturday. Whatever you're doing on this Saturday morning, I don't know, you may be relaxing, you may be resting, you may be playing with your children, you may be having a cup of coffee, preparing for lunch. Well, maybe you're gonna have fun and food and activities with friends and family. Maybe you're gonna spend time with your spouse. Whatever you're going to do, you're gonna go about your day and as you should, but in Myanmar, Mandalay, Things are not going to go on. And we're just going to move on. And then tomorrow we'll be standing inside a church. Praise God. How you doing? Doing great, brother. Praise God. Everything's wonderful. You're going to sing some hymns. And then you're going to hear a nice little sermon. It makes it sound like that life is so easy to understand. And then you're going to get in your car with your family, maybe go out to lunch, go home, have Sunday dinner. And life is just going to move on. because that's how it works. The Bible, God, theology works great in the confines of a nice little church with a steeple, your nice little home with your husband and with your kids and with your wife and with your dog and everything. It's all great. But where, how does Christianity respond? What does Christianity have to say in the face of horrible tragedy like an earthquake that kills 1,600 people in minutes? What does Christianity have to say to a child who's been molested for 15 years? What does it have to say to a woman who's been raped? What does it have to say to a child who's been beaten, tied up in a closet, burned with a curling iron, beat with a baseball bat? What does it have to say to someone suffering and dying? See, then that's when theology, it's hard to say, theology, we're going to make theology central. Then it's hard to make theology central to that. So when the earth shakes, when people suffer, I think in many ways Christianity struggles to explain that suffering, to explain that tragedy, and to explain that horror. So that's what we're going to explore. Now I could play the news report, but you can find the news reports, they're everywhere. I just wanted to tell the story in a way that hopefully makes it a little bit, makes you feel something, not just numbers on a screen. So let's consider first the weight of this whole question and this whole issue. Obviously, I've established the context. March the 28th, 2025, a 7.7 magnitude earthquake strikes Myanmar. Over 1,600 people perish in moments. Thousands more are injured or displaced. Now the question would be, where was God? Why didn't he stop it? Now Christianity has long sought to answer the question of suffering, but how successful has it really been? How successful has Christianity really been at addressing pain, suffering, horrific things? And I can go through all kinds of scenarios and not just made up scenarios, real life scenarios, either things that's happened to me or things have happened to people I know, or just watch the news for crying out loud. I know, you know, Christians may throw out, well, just seeing it as well with my soul five times and everything will be better. Well, we could get into a whole story of how that whole thing played out for the person who wrote that hymn. All right, but we won't get into that. The point is, sometimes our answers, I think, are nothing more than bumper sticker slogans. They're cliches. They're empty. They're meaningless. In many cases, they're a slap in the face of the people who are suffering. So I'm going to try to explore the major Christian attempts to explain suffering, particularly horrific suffering, and I'm going to try to evaluate the logical coherence and the theological soundness and how a basically honest Christian attempts have been. So, I'm going to try again. I'm going to try to explore. Here's what I want to do. To try to explore how Christianity has attempted to explain suffering, particularly horrific suffering, and I'm going to try to evaluate their logical coherence, their theological soundness, and their honesty. How honest have they really been? Right? So, let's look. So, there's kind of like the weight of the question. Why we need to ask the question? Because suffering continues to happen. and all around us. So let's look at maybe kind of the core biblical tension, all right? Before diving into maybe the systems of explanation, because Christianity has a number of systems to try to explain this, I think we have to acknowledge a biblical tension. I think we have to acknowledge this, all right? Let's just go through some of these. God is said in the Bible to be all-powerful. We would use the theological term omnipotent. We see this in Job 42, Psalm 115. I could go to a number of scriptures. I'm not going to look up all the scriptures, but it is a clear biblical teaching that God is omnipotent, all-powerful, All powerful. God is all powerful. Just wrap your mind around that. There is a God and He is all powerful. More powerful than a 7.7 magnitude earthquake. More powerful than a tornado, a flood. More powerful than anyone who's out there doing horrific things. More powerful than disease, storm, murder, war, famine. He's more powerful than everything. Now that's comforting, right? There's a God that's more powerful. Second, God is said to be all-knowing. The theological term is omniscient. Psalm 139, Hebrews 4.13, God is said to be all-knowing. So God is said to be all-powerful. He is said to be all-knowing. And number three, God is said to be good and loving. 1 John 4, 8 and A.M. 1, 7. God is good. God is loving. God is all-knowing. God is all-powerful. Yet, suffering exists, often on a massive, incomprehensible scale. And we should add, maybe I should add to this, God is creator. He's the author and finisher. He's the beginning. So he's the beginning. He's omnipotent. He's omniscient. He's supposedly good and loving. So an all-knowing God, who's all-powerful, creates everything, clearly knowing what's going to happen. He knows exactly what's going to occur. He knows. There's no way to get around this. He knows. And he knows exactly what's going to happen, yet he creates. So then this leads us with some kind of, this is where the tension is. The Bible clearly shows that God is creator. He's all powerful. He's omniscient. He's supposedly good and loving. So if God is all three of just those things, or all four of those things, creator, powerful, knowing, good, why does evil and suffering exist? The problem of evil is often divided into a couple of categories. Some refer to it as moral evil. This is human wickedness, rape, murder, war. Some refer to this as natural, well, I'm not, okay, let me state this correctly. These are three separate categories that typically, historically, we kind of break suffering into, or evil into. Moral evil, human wickedness, rape, murder, war. The second category would be natural evil, suffering caused by nature, earthquakes, diseases. And the third would be horrific evil, suffering so profound it seems irredeemable. So moral evil, natural evil, and we'll call it horrific evil. Those are kind of the three categories. Now, not everyone uses those three categories, but hey, there's evil, there's pain, there's suffering in the world. There's moral evil, there's natural evil, and there's horrific evil that is so bad that we don't even know what to say or do. It's irredeemable, it almost seems. So within Christianity, we have the historical explanations. and we have the more modern explanations. Sometimes in theology, we may use the word, the historical and modern theodicies. Theodicies. This is kind of an attempt to explain or justify that God is good in the face of great evil and horror. That may be an oversimplification, but that's kind of the idea. So the first one everyone runs to, this is the first one, you know it, you've heard it a million times, free will. God has given man free will, free will, free will, free will. Somehow that always makes people feel better. Free will, that makes everything better. I don't know how it makes anything better because God gave free will, knowing exactly what man would do with free will and know all the pain and suffering that would arise from free will. So I don't know how that makes everyone feel better. Hey, hey, man has free will. Don't blame God." Well, see, God created the world knowing exactly what was going to happen, and knowing that man had free will created a being named Satan, allowed that person to tempt the people knowing they had free will, knowing that they would choose to sin, and then knowing that every other person after them would be born a sinner. So then you have, if everyone is born a sinner and you have a sinful nature, is your will really free? then you get into all kinds of theological discussions about that. Because if your will is free, then you're not really totally depraved. But if you're totally depraved, then your will is not really free. And if your will is free, then just choose to be perfect and holy and keep the law perfectly. You can't do that. Well, then that means you don't have free will. So I can destroy the argument of free will in five seconds, right? If you have free will, then keep God's law perfectly. Be holy as he is holy. Oh, you can't do that. Why can't you? Hmm, I wonder why. Because your will is not free. Because if your will is free, you could. So now we've already destroyed the argument of free will. Free will obviously doesn't exist. And even if it did exist, God is the one that gave it to you knowing exactly what you were going to do. So the free will defense goes something like this. God gave humans free will. Evil exists because humans misuse it. God does not interfere because free will is necessary for love and moral responsibility. Now, not only is this a different problem, if everyone has free will and God doesn't interfere because he doesn't want to violate anyone's free will, then what's the point of praying? Because praying becomes ridiculous. It just becomes a waste of time. God, I can pray, but I can't let you do anything that could interfere with anyone's free will. or I know you won't interfere with anyone's free will. So really, I don't know what you can do because any intervention is going to be probably some impact on someone's free will somehow, some way. Now, some people say that the free will defense has some kind of defense. They say it explains moral evil. It explains human sin and injustice. But does it really explain moral evil? Does it really explain human sin and injustice? Because God created man, but he also created the very instrument, Satan, who would then tempt man. And once Satan rebelled, he could have gotten rid of Satan. He could have stopped Satan. And then again, once Adam and Eve sin, if everyone is born a sinner, then does free will even exist at that point? So the whole, and because again, a free will exists and everyone can just, then you can have perfect people without anything because their will is just completely free. Everyone could just be morally perfect, but no one in the history of mankind has been morally perfect other than Jesus Christ, who was true God and true man. So then, I mean, you've got a million problems right there. Some will say, well, the good thing about free will, it preserves the integrity of human choice. I guess, I guess. But here's the problem. First, it fails to explain natural evil. Obviously, free will doesn't have any impact on natural evil, like the earthquake in Myanmar. It doesn't explain it. doesn't explain disease, doesn't explain disability, doesn't explain a lot of horrible things that happen, so free will doesn't even explain that. It doesn't address God's silence or failure to intervene. He could stop a murder without removing free will. Or, well, could he? Could he stop a murder without removing free will? He possibly could, I guess. Maybe. It fails to explain animal suffering or suffering prior to human sin. Scripture often shows God intervening in human will, Pharaoh's heart, Paul's conversion. So why not intervene to stop a rape or a child murderer? And that's true. There's times in the Bible where God clearly intervenes. He intervened, right? The men of Sodom surrounded a house. He intervened, didn't let them do what they wanted to do. There's countless other situations where God intervenes. God intervenes, God intervenes, God intervenes. He's intervening here. So if God can intervene there, well, why not intervene and stop that child from being molested? Why not intervene and stop that child from being murdered? Why not intervene and stop that rape? Why not intervene and stop that abuse? Why not intervene and stop that? Why not intervene and stop that child from being born with a horrific childhood disease? I mean, if God, I mean, come on! So, God intervenes countless times in the Bible. But if you're gonna say a free will where he can't intervene, then again, what's the point of prayer? And again, I can already destroy the free will argument in five seconds, because if you truly have free will, then just be perfect. Well, then obviously you can't be perfect, so obviously your will's not free, because whatever is keeping you from getting to perfection, obviously is in control, therefore you're not free. So I mean, I've already destroyed that a million different ways. So I don't know what the free will argument really, I don't know why people use that. Somehow they, you'll see this in comments under news articles, Christians, and usually when atheists or agnostics start saying, well, where was God? Well, God's given man free will. Well, what do you expect? And it's like, I don't know how that makes you feel any better. The God who knew what was going to happen is the one who gave the free will. Now, he can intervene here, here, here, and here. Those same people will then quote Scripture where God clearly is intervening, but he can't intervene in that situation. No, you don't want him to be able to intervene in that situation because it makes you feel better, but if God can't intervene, then is he really sovereign? I mean, there's just a million—and if he can't intervene, then why pray? I know I'm being repetitive, but the whole thing just drives me crazy when I hear Christians even mention the words free will. because it seems like they've never thought this beyond, I don't know, they just heard the phrase and they're like, oh, I'm going to use this to justify anything that I can't explain. And in just five seconds of thinking about it, it logically collapses in on itself. The second kind of, so there's the first way that people try to somehow answer this free will defense. And again, the free will defense just goes nowhere. It's meaningless. The second school of thought throughout church history, this goes back pretty far in church history, we'll call this soul-making theodicy. Soul-making theodicy. Soul-making theodicy. Now, I know I sound like I'm in a seminary classroom here, but I'll try to break this down, all right? Basically, soul-making theodicy is the idea that suffering exists to help you grow in virtue, right? To develop you, to strengthen you, right? It's soul-making theodicy or suffering exists to help you grow. It's to make you better. See, we become more mature. We become more compassionate. We become more spiritually whole through hardship. See, the reason I was born in the family I was born in and beaten and all the horrible things that happened to me is because God wanted me to be mature. He wanted me to be compassionate. He wanted me to be spiritually whole. Now, for some reason, some of you weren't born, you were born in good families and life's been great. And right now you've got a good life. You've got a husband, you've got a wife, you've got family, you've got a house, you've got, everything's great. You've got intimacy, friendship, companionship. You've got everything great. Well, why is it that you've got everything? and other people don't. Well, is it because you're more spiritually mature, you're more compassionate, you're more spiritually whole and you don't need to suffer? So you can then look at people who are suffering going, well, the reason you're suffering is because God's trying to make you better. I hope you learn the lesson because look at me, look at how great I am. I'm not suffering because my life is so wonderful. Oh, just stop talking. Again, this is preached from pulpits. It's usually kind of dressed up, but it's the idea that God brings the difficulties and trials in your life to make you better. God wants to make you better. Okay, so 1,600 people died to make who better? Obviously not the people who died. So, to make the people left over trying to find their child's buried body to make them better? Now, some people think that this is a strong explanation because it gives redemptive meaning to suffering. Hey, there's a purpose in your suffering. There's a reason for your suffering. And I guess maybe you can find some comfort in that, but again, that only sounds good sitting in church. Look in the face of someone who has been molested for 15 years and say, hey, there's reason for your suffering. God was doing that for your good. You were being molested night after night after night because God wanted things to be so much better for you. Now, I was never molested, but hey, you know, maybe if I was as spiritually messed up as you were, then I would have been molested. I mean, come on. What about the child who's born with a horrible, horrible terminal disease, who goes through 10, 15, 20 surgeries, suffers, suffers, and basically their life from the age of one to 15 is one of never-ending suffering and pain, and then they die, and they don't even get to make it to 16. Hey, God had a purpose in it. God meant it for good. Now, some people would say the soul-making theodicy fits with texts like James 1 and Romans 5. We could get into that. Now, here's the problem. I mean, I've already kind of pointed out a lot of the problems with soul-making theodicy. I always jump ahead sometimes. But, I mean, I think this is fair to say. You can tell me if you think I'm right. Horrific suffering typically, a lot of times, shatters people more than it builds them up. Sometimes horrific suffering just literally destroys people and they live lifelong with the scars, with the trauma, and all the negative impacts. It also would seem to imply, soul-making theodicy, that children who die young or in terror, the Myanmar earthquake victims, that they serve as a tool for the spiritual growth of other people. Hey, that child was crushed to death in an earthquake so that you can grow spiritually. That. Hey, your child was killed so that you can grow. Your child was paralyzed so you can grow. Your child is suffering year after year after year with that horrible disease and disability so that you can grow. Is maturity really worth a child's crushed skull? Is spiritual maturity really worth a child's crushed skull? Is it really worth it? Is it really worth a child being Suffering? Is your spiritual maturity really worth 15 years of being molested? Romans 8, 19-22 speaks of creation groaning in bondage, not as a virtue factory, but as something awaiting redemption. I think that's true. Romans 8 speaks of creation groaning in bondage, but not as a virtue factory. Not, this is the factory that's going to make everyone better, but almost as something awaiting redemption. And not only that, this view of soul-making theodicy, seems to make God utilitarian, right? He's willing to let a few suffer horribly for the so-called greater good of others' character. That seems problematic, all right? So, number one, we have the free will defense, that one fell apart. Soul-making theodicy, that's kind of more of a technical term, but it's basically the idea, suffering exists to help people grow. Now, what people do, they will try to limit this. Well, no, it's only suffering that happens to you, not suffering that happens to someone else, but then you're not explaining the suffering that happens to someone else, right? So then it becomes, well, it's not like, well, this only applies to different, it doesn't apply to like child molestation or rape or child abuse. It only applies to like, you know, and so then we have to try to start modifying it and it becomes very subjective. But the basic concept is built into the DNA of Christianity. Christianity loves this concept. Pastors love to teach this. And everyone in the pew go, oh yeah, I'm going through these difficulties, but God's got a purpose in it. I'll know the reason one day and try to give someone a sense of comfort. But man, the philosophical problems that arise from it are staggering. Now, the third view. within church history is the divine judgment view. Suffering is God's judgment for sin, either individual or collective. Now, some people would say that this has a strength because you have biblical precedents, Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon, and it appeals to the idea of divine justice. Hey, people are sinners, so God can kill, destroy, you can suffer anytime because you're a sinner. So God, you can be a beaten, abused, raped, murdered because you are a sinner. That's what it ultimately leads to. 1,600 people died in an earthquake. Well, they were all a bunch of sinners anyway. These people died in a hurricane. They were all sinners. Well, the fact is we're all sinners. So then we all can suffer, we can all conduct, and we should just accept it because we're all sinners. Now, why am I a sinner? Well, because I was born that way. Did I do anything to be born that way? No. Why was I born that way? So even if I'm a sinner, I'm a sinner because I was born a sinner. So now I can just suffer because I was born that way? Oh, now that becomes majorly problematic. Now the problem with this view, why are children crushed in Myanmar, but serial killers live to be, I don't know, 70, 80, 90? It's often used irresponsibly, blaming 9-11 or Hurricane Katrina on societal sins. Oh, Christians love that. 9-11 happens because America is sinful. The Hurricane Katrina happened because there was an LGBTQ parade somewhere. So people have to die. It implies God is punishing some while sparing others in a very arbitrary way. Now, John 9, Jesus seems to reject linking specific suffering to specific sin. Luke 13, Jesus seems to warn not to assume those who die in tragedy were worse sinners. So we got some scriptures there that seem to go against this idea. So that one, I know we like it to some level, right? Well, anyone can suffer and anyone can die because we're sinners, so therefore God can just make us suffer anytime. But that's just really like, hey, why was I molested for 15 years? Well, you're a sinner. Why were you beaten? Well, because you're a sinner. Oh, why did this horrible tragedy occur? Because you're a sinner. Why did I lose half of my family in a flood? Well, because you're a sinner. I mean, I, that one. I think, again, sitting in a seminary classroom on a Tuesday night or sitting in a church classroom, you may find, like, okay, well, this helps explain. When you take it out into the real world, I don't think it works. All right, so let's go through the different systems within Christianity. Let's try to explain all of this, all right? So what have we done so far? We talked about the weight of the question. We've talked about the core biblical tension, because God is the creator, all-powerful, all-knowing, and said to be good and loving. We've talked about the historical and modern explanations, or we can call them theodicies. if you want to use a more technical, theological term, a free will defense. That one just, that one exploded within 5.2 seconds. The free will defense is the most ridiculous thing. When Christians even say that, I just, I just shake my head. And you hear it in movies, you hear it everywhere. Oh my goodness, I get so tired of hearing it. All right, soul-making theodicy. We talked about that one, the divine judgment. And then number four, we'll call this the mysterious sovereignty view. mysterious sovereignty view goes something like this, God has a plan that we can't understand. Everything, including suffering, is under his sovereign control, so just trust him. Hey, God's doing something, you don't understand it, This includes everything. Suffering, murder, rape, molestation. It includes everything and it's all under His sovereign control. So what should you do? Hey, just trust Him. Just trust Him. Just trust Him. It's all good. It's all under control. Now, what is the strength of this? Some would say the strength is this affirms God's control and his majesty. So some people like this because, well, okay, this is not all random. It's not chaotic. God is in control of all of this. So it sounds good and it preaches good, right? It preaches good. And at least in some ways, this avoids any—some will say this avoids simplistic explanations. I don't know. I think in and of itself, it's still trying to offer a simplistic explanation, right? But I guess the way out of this is, hey, God has a plan. We don't understand, so I don't have to really explain it. I just know God has a plan. He's sovereign. He's controlling it. So everything that happens is somehow a part of His plan. Now, that's easy for me to say. if I'm not in the one in the midst of the suffering, but if you're in the midst of the suffering, I mean, do you look at a child who's being molested and go, hey, God has a plan that we can't understand. Everything including your abuse is under his sovereign control, so just trust him. See, again, these concepts sound, this is what I think, I say this all the time, theology at its very core is very theoretical. It's very, it works great in a theoretical setting. It's when you move it into the real world and you put a face, pain, suffering, death, abuse. Myanmar, 1,600 people were there and then they were just gone. The earth just kind of opened up and swallowed them up, gone, crushed. All of a sudden, it's like, man, these things sound good in church. They sound so good when the pastor preaches them, but they don't always work. And this is why Christians are so ill-equipped. This is why when you suffer, Christians show up and say some of the most, I'm telling you, some of the dumbest things ever uttered in their mouths. I mean, the things Christians said to my sister when our mother died, and she was much younger than me, but the crazy, I was like, what? I was like, just shut up! Just stop talking to her! The things they said to me, standing at my mother's grave. I'm just like, could someone bring me some atheist and satanist here to talk to me? Because they could offer better comfort than this nonsense these Christians are saying to me. Because Christians are just—they're given this theoretical, a couple of philological concepts, and they just throw it out there, thinking it's going to make someone feel better. And really, it's just them taking a knife, shoving it so far into your chest that you die in five seconds. And they all go, I hope that made you feel better, brother. So the mysterious sovereignty view, okay? So what are the problems with this? Well, it offers no comfort to the grieving beyond God knows best. That's basically what it says. Hey, you're suffering. Hey, God knows best. So don't complain. God knows best. It kind of risks turning God in kind of a, God is a cold cosmic chess master. Hey, he's the chess master. You're on the chess board. God's moving you where he wants you. Aren't you in that amazing? Glorify God. You get to be on his chessboard and he has decided to move you to the place of beating, abuse, torture, suffering, disease, and death. Hey, but you get to be in his chess piece. It also seems not to take into consideration, and I know this is a theological argument here, but is there a distinction between what God causes and what God permits? If everything is for a reason, well then genocide is too. I know I'm going to get people who hold to specific theologies right now. I'm going to tick off everyone. Look, I'm ticking off people who hold to free will. I'm ticking off the reform people. I'm ticking off people who hold to a strong sovereignty view. I'm ticking off people who hold to the London Baptist confession of faith. You look at God's providence and God's decrees. He decrees everything that comes about. Now they would say, but secondary causes, secondary causes. I understand. Look, I have heard all of the arguments. What I'm trying to demonstrate is every system falls wildly short of coming up with anything that's even remotely comforting. I don't think, I think most of these don't even hold any much logical consistency. Now, some of you are going to say, but what's your answer? What's your answer? I'm trying to explain. I don't think anybody has an answer if we're even remotely honest with ourselves. Isaiah 55, eight through nine, my thoughts are higher than your thoughts. My ways are, you know, is often used here, but Job shows that God's mystery doesn't excuse injustice. The cross shows God entering suffering, not staying above it, and a detached sovereignty. Now, you could say He enters into it because of God's sovereignty. I don't know if those are issues. I know we like to say God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts. Now, that is in Isaiah 55, so what is that referencing? I know we just take that out of its context. Right? We take it out of its calm. I mean, we're working through Isaiah 40 through 55, and we see how pastors do that all the time. I've taken his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. His ways are not my ways. I've used that out of context probably million times as well. All right, so how about a fifth way? This one is known as natural law theodicy. Natural law theodicy. This one says, God created a consistent, lawful, natural order. Earthquakes and viruses are part of that system. Without natural law, the world would be chaotic. I don't really know how this really works because I would look at the world now and it is chaotic. Now, some will say the strength of natural law theodicy explains why the world behaves predictably. Now, I guess you could say it's predictably chaotic. It's predictably chaotic. So therefore, this is God's natural law theodicy. It seems chaotic, but it's not really chaotic because it's working according to God's natural law. So it just has the appearance of chaos. It has the appearance of unpredictability, but what's predictable is how unpredictable it is. I guess you could go that direction. Some would say this would account for natural processes, hurricanes, tornadoes, tectonic movement of, you know, tectonic plates moving and earthquakes. I guess you could go with this idea, but again, it's still God is the one who created it to be this way, knowing all the pain, suffering, and death that's going to occur. So what are the problems? Well, once again, it doesn't address why God doesn't intervene when those laws kill thousands, millions. It doesn't answer why he created a world with this kind of suffering embedded into it. And it doesn't really offer any moral or pastoral comfort. Again, there's no comfort to be offered here. See, all of these things ultimately just say, hey, this is just the way it is. Get over it. Or at worse, you deserve it. It's either just like, hey, this is the way it's supposed to be, just accept it, or you deserve it. That's really where, or you caused it. Okay, I guess, I mean, none of these offer any real ability to comfort. That's why most of the comfort offered by pastors, in many cases, I think, contradict the very theology they teach. Romans 8 says creation is subjected to futility. Is that by necessity or by design? Why is the natural world so full of cruelty if God could have made it otherwise? Now, those are the five basic systems. Now, you could probably break this down to a little bit more. Let me go through them again. The free will defense, okay, that imploded. That's just, that's the most, man. Anytime I get an email and someone talks to me about free will, I just, I almost want to respond, okay, before we continue, since you believe in free will, I would ask you now to be perfect. And then after you show me that you're perfect, then I will believe free will exists. Because if free will exists, you can freely choose to be perfect. Well, since you can't, then that means there's something holding you back. That means something keeping you from freely being perfect. So what is that very thing? Okay, well, then the whole thing falls apart. All right. So soul-making theodicy. All right. God's causing all this pain and suffering, or allowing all this pain and suffering to make you better, because you need to be made better. And again, just think, all the suffering in the world. You could be tied up in a closet and beaten and beaten. They could withhold food from you. They could burn you with a curling iron, whip you with an electric cord. They could beat you and beat you and beat you and beat you and beat you and beat you. You know what? It's never going to change. It's not going to improve my sinful nature, not one little bit. So when we say suffering makes us better, we got to somehow explain that because it's not making the sinful nature better. The sinful nature, it's still going to be there. Number three, divine judgment view, then the mysterious sovereignty view, and then natural law theodicy. And I struggle with the natural law one. I struggle with all of them. So what are some of the, let's look at four, let's look at four possible theological problems across all of these models. All right. I think one, it kind of turns suffering into some kind of an instrument. In other words, you make people's trauma a means to an end. It's for someone else's growth. Hey, you suffer so that someone else can grow. That kind of mess, I'm not a fan of that. Those people suffer so that you can grow. I don't think that's very popular. I don't think Christians usually explain it that way. They typically explain it, you're suffering so that you can grow. But then that's just, then your trauma is just a means to an end. And what does that end? That I can grow what? I can read my Bible a little bit more. I can pray a little bit more. I can go to church a little bit more. I mean, this horrible trauma takes place. It serves as an instrument. So that trauma is just an instrument to make me a little bit better. So I will read more, love God more. Well, isn't my salvation based on what Christ did? I'm saved for eternity. But God's going to come along, even though I'm saved for eternity, and then beat me down with trauma so that I will read my Bible more, pray more, and be a better Christian? I mean, that just seems like, I don't even know like to what, how do you even measure? I mean, I don't, that just seems all kinds of problems. It basically turns victims into spiritual tools, especially if you're gonna say that it's helping someone else and someone else's narrative. So I think that you kind of turn suffering into some kind of an instrument and all kinds of problems arise from it. There's also kind of a moral disparity, the idea that God won't intervene to stop horrific evil, but does intervene in minor things. Like, God help me find my keys. You hear this Christians all the time. God help me here. God help me here. God help me here. But then he wouldn't help here or here or here. I had a pastor who was listening to me, this was during the pandemic, and he walked into my church. He was not very, it seems like he seemed very upset with me, because I talked about God not talking to us outside of the Bible, and he was upset with me, and he's like, there was this time I was driving the car, and God told me to stop. He told me to stop, and I stopped, and this truck, I think this truck went by. I would be dead if I didn't listen to God. So he was upset that I don't believe God's talks out of the Bible, and I'm like, well then, we're sitting here, I almost wanted to say to him, I didn't say anything, I was just like, okay. I wasn't going to argue, I wasn't going to debate, because he was clearly emotionally upset. I'm like, okay, thank you for sharing your opinion, and then he walked out. It was really odd and uncomfortable, but okay. But I wanted to say, okay, we're standing in this church in the middle of nowhere, Texas. If we walk out this church, drive through Tuscola, Texas, right? We go over the railroad track. We go about a mile, I think it's about a mile and a half down the road, because right before the railroad tracks in Tuscola, Texas, is Jim Ned High School, where I went to school, right? And there was a day that I was sitting in school with a girl. She was a Pentecostal girl, right? Followed all the rules, loved God, didn't do anything wrong, never cussed. She was always godly. I took up for her because people made fun of her the way she dressed, because she was Pentecostal, couldn't wear makeup, dresses way down to the ankle. And I always defended her, not because I agreed with her Pentecostalism, but because I didn't like people getting picked on. Well, one day after school, You know, I think she thanked me that day. I think she thanked me for taking up for her because someone had said something in class. She gets in her car, she leaves the parking lot, goes over the railroad tracks, go the mile, mile and a half, down to what we call the Y, where the highway 83 and 84 kind of splits. She's trying to cross over. Boom! Gets hit by a truck and she dies. The age of what, 15? 16? Wait, wait, pastor who says God, so God wanted you to live, but didn't want her to live. God intervened to save you. God intervened to help you find your keys. God intervened to help you. But what about her who's dead, who's been dead? I've lived all these years. She died right there, not just about a mile and a half from my high school. my friend Greg, who was abused severely by his parents. Our report cards just came out. One of his grades, I can't remember, I think it was in the 60s, and he knew that he was going to go home and he was about to be beaten because of his performance on his report card. I felt bad for him. I felt horrible. I knew what was going to happen. He gets up. We're sitting on the school bus together. He stands up. He looks at me and he says, goodbye. Felt weird the way he said it. I didn't think about it because I'm a kid. I go home. I'm outside playing football. Ambulance goes flying by. Now that may not sound weird to you, but in the middle of Buffalo Gap, Texas, You never saw an ambulance. You never saw anything like that. You never heard sirens anywhere. And I didn't think anything about it until I got told a couple of hours later that Greg went home and hung himself. God did not intervene. God did not intervene to stop his abuse. God did not intervene stopping him from tying a rope, putting around his neck and killing himself. Oh, I got more and more stories. My mother's death, my father's death. that God intervenes here. And Christians love to tell those stories. Oh, I couldn't, you know, this happened and God intervened and God helped me here and God helped me here and God helped me here. And it's a lot of times it's very insignificant things. Like, well, I'm so glad God was intervening, helping you, I don't know, find your keys or your car started or, or I don't know, you know, this, these little things happen and you're so, you're telling it during testimony time. What about the children who just died in Myanmar? Another problem across all of these supposed explanations is, in many cases, I think they silence lament. Many theodicies, or these trying to justify God, they bypass or ignore the biblical language of protest, the biblical language of weeping, the biblical language of rage, the laments. Look in the Bible. the Psalms of Lament. They are filled with protest. They are filled with weeping. They're filled with rage. And Christians don't like them. I've told the story before of how a Christian metal band in the 90s, they wrote a song basically taking one of the Psalms of Lament, where it's screaming out basically, where is God? You've left me. And they turned it into a song. And they got, in some cases, they were banned from Christian radio because like, well, this is just too negative. This is just so, this seems to have no faith and they were like, it's the words from a psalm for crying out loud. What is wrong with Christianity? Because Christianity doesn't want to deal with the fact that there are people who scream out in pain because life doesn't make any stinking sense and they don't understand. But shh, it always makes sense. Here's your little simple explanation. Now run off little boy. Another problem in all of these things is God becomes almost morally unrecognizable. I mean, a God who lets children be raped, a God who lets children be crushed, a God who lets children be burned to death, a God who lets children be mutilated, all for His glory, becomes alien to, I think, a concept of a God of compassion and justice. Maybe, and I'm not saying I have any answers here, ladies and gentlemen. I'm not even trying to offer any. I'm sitting here looking at the news reports of what happened in Myanmar, and I am just as baffled and confused. And not just that story. I mean, all kinds of other stories, right? But I mean, I was listening to the news reports, and it's just like, I'm just like, I don't know what to say. So I just sit here flipping through my Bible. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. So, I don't know. Does this... I'll just throw this out there. You can tell me what you think. The Bible offers lament. Psalm 13, Psalm 22, Psalm 88. The lament gives you a permission to cry out. It gives you permission to accuse. It gives you permission to protest. It gives you permission to scream out in pain. We can't silence people's lament. We gotta let people scream out in pain and be upset and be angry and be confused. Maybe the Bible offers some level of solidarity. John 11, 35, Jesus wept. Maybe it points to the God who suffers with us to some level. Maybe the Bible offers us some level of mystery and protest, like for example, Job. Not all suffering has a revealed reason. I mean, Job never knew what was going on, and Job's story seems to be one of the most messed up stories in the world, considering people literally died so God and Satan could have a little contest. I mean, that is some messed up stuff. I mean, that story will leave you up at night just tossing and turning, going, I do not understand. You can try to—I know preachers love to try to turn the story into some positive thing, His children died for crying out loud so that God and Satan could have a contest so you could prove some point? Or, well, he did this for Job's spiritual growth. His children had to die so Job could grow spiritually? Really? The death of children is worth Job growing what? What did he do more? I mean, the Bible already said at the beginning that he was a man who was perfect, blameless. So, All right, that whole thing just becomes majorly problem. but we're allowed to question God without condemnation. I think that, I wanna make that very clear. We are allowed to question God without condemnation. Job questioned, Job cried out, Job said everything, and it says, and yet he did not sin. He cursed the day he was born, he wished he was dead. He had complained against God, yet he did not sin. That means you can complain, you can wish you were dead, you could curse the day you were born, and you're not sinning. Christians will tell you you're sinning, No, they've never read the book of Job. Job complained. He was upset, and yet he did not sin. That means you can scream out, you can complain, you can say things, and it doesn't mean you're committing a sin. The Bible does offer some hope for restoration, right? Suffering is not explained away. The Bible never explains away suffering or really offers us any idea, but it does seem to offer us that one day it's all going to be removed. There'll be no more pain, no more suffering, no more death, and no more tears. It does offer hope for that. Not a lot of hope in the meantime. I don't think Christianity, this is just my belief, I don't think Christianity I don't think it should in any way, shape, or form try to explain away or try to explain in any way, shape, or form every horror, every tragedy, every pain, because I'm just going to be honest with you, it can't do it. It can't do it. And whenever it does attempt to explain, it becomes cruel. It becomes abstract and it becomes extremely dishonest. Now, maybe Christianity finds some comfort that we do believe in a God that didn't stay far away. He entered our world. He did suffer. He did weep. He was tortured. He was murdered. He was buried. And he promised to raise the broken to eternal life. I don't think we're never going to find answers. We are kind of promised his presence and maybe in the ruins and the pain and the suffering, maybe that's enough to hold on to. I don't know if it is. I don't know. I know that preachers like to say that. You have God, and he is with you, and he will never leave you, and he will never forsake you. Hold on to that. It sounds so good, again, in church, but when you live a life and you're either watching someone suffer and die, you find yourself alone, isolated, know anything, Is it enough? You're alone. Is God enough? And if God is enough, then why does everyone else need anybody else? You should be happy just being alone. But no one else ever seems to be happy being alone. No one else ever seems to be happy when people are suffering or dying. So why is it that the people suffering are the told, God is enough, but everyone else can have everything else? I mean, that always seems contradictory. God is all we need. He's everything we need. Your joy, your happiness, contentment is found in God. And everyone's sitting there, you know, holding hands with their spouse, getting to get in the car. Oh, I love you, honey. I love you, honey. Hey, kids, you want to go out and get something to eat? And then let's get on the boat and go fishing. Oh, but God is all you need. See, it's a big talk to say God is all you need until you wake up one day and God is all you have. And then is it enough? Let me end with this. Hello and welcome to News Hour from the BBC World Service coming live from London. This is Owen Bennett-Jones and we're going straight to Myanmar. And after the earthquake, the rescue and the all too familiar scenes of people trapped under heavy concrete with rescuers trying to reach them, the military government says over a thousand people have died. A number it believes is bound to rise. And lots of governments are offering help. The military have said they need it. Here's the head of the military junta, General Ming-Ang Hang. People are still suffering and people are still slowly dying. Now, that's just in Myanmar. There's people suffering all around you, people dying all around you. And at that very same time, At that very same time, while all this suffering is happening in Myanmar and everywhere else around the world, Ukraine, Gaza, wherever else you want to look to, right? Wherever situation you want to look to, whether that involves large numbers, small numbers, or individuals, and go to any children's hospital right now and see the kids that are suffering, feel free to go. Go to any cancer ward and see the people dying of cancer. At the very same time, I hold a Bible right here in my hand that says, there is a God who created the heavens and the earth, that God is all-powerful, that God is all-knowing, and we say that God is love. That tension That apparent contradiction has never been explained in any satisfying way in the history of Christianity. You can look at every system that's been thrown at it. Now, Christians love to feel better about it, and they like to make themselves feel good about it. But they're just playing games. And Christianity has to exist in the face of horrible reality. And if it can't exist within the face of horrible reality, if our way Christianity exists is to pretend that horrible reality doesn't, or to just throw our little bumper sticker cliches at it, then I'm sorry, then Christianity is inadequate. And in many ways, it is inadequate when it comes to this, because there aren't any easy answers. But if we're going to be theologians, people who study and pursue the knowledge of God, which should be every Christian, then we have to feel this pain and this suffering and this confusion. We have to embrace it. Thanks for listening. God bless.