page 202 i want to mention in your book but not not read it 202 through 204 is understanding the DID mind and i won't go over it because i assume all of you can read but i do want to take time to go over some of the other things that where we have from fill in the blanks and different things on page 206 You have a thing called Clues? You have a thing called Clues, but I don't have my thing called Clues, so... If I could just borrow some of it, I could read through it and give it... Oh wait, what? Nope, I don't have it. William, can you borrow yours and then I'll give it right back? Sorry about that. If you're nice to the guy next to you, he may let you look after his. I'll just read through these, down through these, and not make too much of a comment, but I want to talk after that about more specificity. When you're in a counseling or discipleship setting, and there's some other clues, besides what's listed here, that might give you a heads up and then what you might do with it. When people talk about missing periods of time, they're talking about what Cunnington is called fugue states, and that's when you're like sitting here now, and if you're looking straight forward, And then you look sideways, and you're in a completely different place, and it's like three days later. And you have no fewer functioning, a different part of your mind. Many people use the word altered. I tend not to use it, only because there were so many altered, physical alters in my childhood, that I've always gotten used to the terms of parts of your mind. So I'm talking about alters, the fragmented personalities, and I use that term. Someone else was in charge. And you just had no clue. I have to tell you funny stories, and then I'll promise not to make too many rabbit trails so you can get to the end of the tale. But I went to school in New York City, above Yonkers, in college. And people said, well, how in the world could you go to college? It was so dysfunctional. Well, I used work and study and all that to try to keep sane. So I only slept about four hours for about those four years. I did everything I could to stop the chaos and silence. I was busy and occupied. That kind of helped. I was taking a music history exam once, and I remember looking down and looking at a question about the Baroque era. And then, in my thinking, I had a fig thing. I didn't know that, and I had driven several hundred miles. When I looked up, I saw a man standing opposite me that had little black pointy shoes on. He had little stockings. And I kept looking further up, and he had a Revolutionary War coat on and a musket and a triangular hat. And with the humor that can only come when you've tried to make sense out of the bizarre of your life, I said to myself, boy, this time travel is something else. I didn't know that I had driven from New York down to Williamsburg, which is a Revolutionary War ground where people dress up like that and they give you tours and all that. I had no recollection of that. My glove box was filled with maps from various states that marked out how to get back to the school, because I would often find myself in New Jersey or Pennsylvania or somewhere like that. It couldn't be as long as that or the missed periods of time could just be several hours. You go shopping and eight hours later you come back, you haven't bought anything because you never got out of your car, it appeared, or something happened. You're not quite sure what. So the people that have DID, even if they don't know they have it, they've learned to sort of make sense somehow. Many times they just say, well, it doesn't matter, whatever. Reality isn't an important thing for them because it's so hard to decide what is reality and what isn't. Some of those things I mentioned in that list. Also, sudden changes in behavior, voice tone, or handwriting. You get a letter from someone who's got three different handwritings on it. One of them is printing, and it's sort of like an elementary school. And the other is, you know, curses, and it's not cursing, but cursive writing, talking about different things. Contradictory statements such as, I don't like boo, and then saying boo is my favorite color. Knowledge of parents, grandparents, or other relatives that have been involved in psychic or occult practices. Removal from the home as a child by the state. Unexplainable scars. Hysterical reactions to a seemingly non-threatening event, comment, or situation. Sometimes this can be a clue. We're on page two or six, where the person is reacting maybe with an appropriate reaction, but the intensity of it doesn't match. The thing, you know, somebody may have swatted at a mosquito and killed a mosquito, and the sound of the fly swatter hitting the mosquito, somebody just is, you know, they just can't deal with this, and you're thinking, well, my goodness, we just killed a mosquito. Well, the person is reacting emotionally on two levels. One, cerebrally, with what's happening, a mosquito just got killed, and that sound is related to that. And on the other place, they're reacting to an event, perhaps years or decades ago, that that sound was somehow associated with, or the thought of killing was associated with, whatever. So they're reacting on two levels. A family member with a history of mental illness or severe imbalance. Maybe we can sort of give some scenarios. What I'd like to do at this point in the week is to try and say, okay, how could you use this? and to get us to kind of think through some of those issues. Maybe I can mention some things that you might see. A person comes to you and they're coming because they're very, very depressed. And the pastor told them that true Christians shouldn't be depressed. They don't know what to do about this, but whatever they've been told, they're there in front of you. What might be some of the little mini clues, in a sense, that they're switching or they're changing and operating on the basis of the mindset of one of the authors or one of the parts. These aren't always found, but I wanted to mention four that you may see. Probably the first would have to do with the eyes. It says that the eyes are the lamp of the soul in scripture. And often, Either as you're talking with the person, their eyes seem to dart back and forth, or they'll sort of stare without blinking and then sort of come to themselves again. So sometimes you can see this happening when you're talking with the person. Or they can't remember what you just said. Excuse me, I think I didn't get that. Or you might check with them. You say, well, are you understanding what I just said? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you or whatever. So they might be having little blank places and things going on, switching while you're talking with them. Different body language or posture. They may suddenly get very rigid or they may, you know, back way away from you, especially if your chair is real close to their chair. And the last is, what I call mini pauses, followed by different facial or voice features. Facial features in voice tone. Mini pauses followed by different facial features of voice tone. So it's just a little break. The conversation usually takes a sudden right turn or left turn with no turning signals. In other words, you're talking maybe about, well, You know, are you married? Do you have kids? You don't know the person very well. You're just getting served some sandwiches and all of a sudden go... Do you see that fly over there on the window? I mean, it doesn't really do what you're saying. It's just sending you off on something else. Many severely abused people have super hearing. I remember sitting in counselor's office and I could hardly hear them because the buzzing of that fly over in the window was so loud to me. And I kept saying, does anybody hear that? I mean, I was hoping they'd go take care of the fly, but apparently nobody else heard it. Well, what should you do if you notice the person's sleeping? Well, this is where I get to give my opinion again. What I would recommend not doing is saying, did you know there's a possibility you might have DID? I would instead recommend that you minister to what's presented. You're suddenly presented with a person that seems to be rather immature and they're thinking maybe about 11 years old or even younger ones. Maybe suddenly it's almost like there's a four-year-old person there. It might be helpful sometimes, but instead of always saying, What's your name? Who's president? That's how I was agreed on that. I used to say Eisenhower, and the people knew they were in trouble because we were off to some other president by then. But in my mind, Eisenhower was still president. But instead of, you know, what's your name, blah, blah, blah, and all like this, just go with what's there. So if suddenly there's a very small voice that says, who are you? Why, just go to that age level, similar to what Dr. Lumberger was saying about ministering to the inner world. and go to that little place in an appropriate age-related biology, oh my name is Elaine, what's your name? Or if there's a presenting dominant intense emotion, a terror on their face, oh you look, are you frightened? What they're doing is affirming that emotion that they're having and also beginning to develop a little bit of trust on their part towards you so that They know you're safe. Please don't lurch forward and try to hug them. You know, that's a very bad thing to do at that point. You may want to sort of just lean back or push your chair a little ways away, further away. I like to keep teddy bears or something in my office. And because if I'm talking to someone and suddenly there's a very terrified little one there or something, You know, I would say something like, you know, do you see that bear over there? Would you like to have him come sit next to you? Don't assume, because I met somebody just recently, the bear terrified her, so that wasn't too good if I jumped up and grabbed the bear and suggested that it sit right on her lap. But would you like me to get that bear for you? Just dealing with what's presented. And maybe asking a question, is there anything you'd like to tell me? Anything you'd like to talk to me about? Because obviously, people think of triggering, which brings the parts close, sometimes as a negative thing. But I see it as often a thing that the Lord times in a safe place. So that the triggering is not a bad thing. The job is not to keep them from being triggered. Because what gets presented may be the Lord's perfect timing for having that issue dealt with. Besides using age-appropriate verbiage, and affirming the obvious, like, well, I can tell you're really mad about something, or whatever, to initiate the conversation. You might ask them again, at first, if they know who you are. Do you know who I am? Because you may have been talking for weeks, either to the core personality, the main person, or to other parts, and they were totally blocked off, this part of their mind that said, now, and they had no idea who you are. So you might have to affirm who you are and that you're here to see if there's any way you can help them. Maybe even asking the question, now this goes against the grain where we have to always be the expert, but how can I help you? Now when they switch back again and there's either somebody else or back to the course, I wouldn't make a big, did you realize that you switched and you had a big, you had a DID, interruption, blah, blah, ab reaction, and all these other big words we're learning. Well, what's the sense of that? Just administer to what's presented. Now again, this is my opinion in the sense that from the view from the window, what was most effective in me was not having, you know, Dick Tracy sit opposite me and try to spy on me. Who's that? What part? Where are you going? and try to analyze it all. I didn't need analysis. I needed a caring person that had the heart and the effort. What kind of things might you come up against when you're working with a person that you think you don't even know that there's a DID or SRA issue and then you start talking to them and there's clues about the SRA part like we talked about earlier. They say, well, yeah, You know, my parents were into this, I guess their town clues, or, you know, or I always had these dreams of all these altars, and, you know, just like a blood, and I don't, I don't know why, and, you know, it's little clues around, and it may be SRA kind of stuff. And you're talking with them, and you do notice the first switch things, and back and forth, and whatever. if you have if you yourself have the gift of discerning of spirits it's easier because when a part comes by you don't have quite as much confusion like is that a demon is that a part because that spiritual gift makes it clear just like another spiritual gift um you know there's a sensing in your spirit now that doesn't mean you can't minister to people from sra if you don't have the gift of discernment Because I'm not an evangelist, I don't have the gift of evangelism, but the Lord leads me in certain cases to speak as an evangelist to people. The Lord says He'll make us adequate ministers. Sometimes if there's a suspicion, well I wonder if this is a demonic thing or just part of the person. It's really amazing that the system inside usually knows. They may be tricked into agreement with the demonic, but they may, you know, you may be talking with someone and you just sense anything. It just seems like there's a demonic edge to this. There's a, there's a causticity, not that the parts aren't sometimes caustic, but I just have my suspicions. So then immediately there's another chain and there's like maybe a presentation of like a 10 year old person sitting there. And you say, do you know what this strong, and afraid of it, oh yeah, well that's one of those bad ones. Well, what's so bad? Oh, it's one of those angels in there that has a black coat on, you know. So that often you can, the system inside, by the system I mean all the interrelated parts of that person's thinking and emotions, can give you a heads up almost of what's going on, whether it is a demonic or not. Well, what would happen I mean, do you ever have like a D.I.D. presentation one after the other? I used to call it a Rolodex, which is what I was. One part would come by and then the Lord would bring resolution and healing and then another one. You know, it was really until the pastor that was working with me realized that, again, like we said yesterday, he wasn't the one that was keeping me alive. It gave him greater freedom to allow me to leave his office when the time was up and I still wasn't all the way clear. And I still wasn't all the way back in what he would say was my rational mind. He would, at first, think, well, I've got to just stick with it. It would be hours and hours sometimes. And sometimes that's appropriate. But if you're not the one that's keeping them alive and sane, and you ask the Lord, is this the time you want us to quit this appointment? And he says, yes. Even though when they leave, they're not in what you would call the best emotional condition, the Lord is going to be the one But what if there's a mixture? Like, I was in California talking to a lady, and she had DID. And I talked to several parts. Sometimes I asked the question. She knew she had DID. I would say, is there anybody that the Lord wants me to talk to today? And then there would often be a presentation of a part of personality that said, well, I'm just mad. I'm just really mad. What are you mad about? You know, we're talking about what healing for the DID looks like. And in my mind, it's not just integration, which is the merging together. There's some other elements. In some ways, integration I see as a byproduct of healing. But your goal isn't the integration is a byproduct of healing. I could talk about that one just a minute. But your goal is not to jam everybody together. You know, you've only got 45 minutes and to be successful you've got to just jam them all in there and stick them together somehow. No, your goal is to do whatever during that 45 minutes the Good Shepherd leads you to do. What might that be? Well, it might just be beginning to establish a relationship of trust with the person. So you're just talking about what seems to you like an important thing. But it's really important because it's building the foundation that people are watching you. Not only the core personality, but often all the other parts are aware and they're studying you and watching you. That's why honesty is so good. Because, you know, if you're glancing at your watch to make sure that you're not running over into the next section and somebody says to you, you know, are you going to make me leave now, or are you done with me, or what, you know, what are the negative comments? No, no, no, no, no, okay, you know, well, they know. They know the body language and everything that the counselors use. You know, you've used it yourself to finalize the time to get here. Well, so, you know, there's different things that we all do to get the point across. A lot of times it's kind of one thing down here. But rather than deny that, to just say, you know, I really wish I could spend more time with you. But there's another person that's coming at 2 o'clock, and I had promised that I would be talking with her as well. But, you know, so just being honest and saying, because DIDs are good lie detector people. They've been learning. They don't go so much by what you say, but by what you don't say. What your eyes tell them, what your body language says, what your voice tells them. No, no. It doesn't bother me. No, no, no. Well, come on. You know it's bothering you. because they've had to learn to read people to anticipate danger. So, remaining safe is very tied in with really analyzing somebody and finding out what are they really like? Is there any minute should I get ready to flee there? Is there something about to happen? I used to call it lamping people, like trying to lamp. You know, we had eggs on the farm, hold them, see if there was a potential chicken in there or not, you know. Lamping the eggs, and I used to call it Lamping People. Probably what they said to me was only 10% of what I felt they were communicating to me. Not in my reading, but in the sense of their real attitude, their face, their eyes, their words. So honestly, that was the best thing. Well, this is another rabbit trail, so I'll get back to where we were at. I was in California. I'm talking about the mix between a demonic eruption middle of a DID situation. Again, I get to give my opinion on this. Since I'm not, my main thing in discipleship is to help people stand in their authority in Christ and deal with any demonic forces that need to be lifted. There may be times when they were, they are like I was, where I wanted to do that but I couldn't. So my counselor had to help me with that. But my goal is to get them to the place where they realize that Christ is the stronger one. They've been intimidated so much blackmailed by the enemy, they really think that he's stronger. But to encourage them to stand their authority. Well, what does that look like? Well, this lady, she had DID, she was there, and the people had had told me that the pastor and his wife that I was visiting had flown in. I said, well, I have about 45 minutes. I can pray with this lady. They said, well, we've kind of hit a roadblock, and we're not sure where to go with it. So they said, oh, you're going to love Bonnie. She is such a dear person. She is so gentle and kind. And I had this big view of this just wonderful, quiet person. So the doorbell rings. Well, here comes Bonnie. The only problem is, There's a demon up in Bonnie, Bonnie. And this wonderful, nice person is growling and, and, you know, we know you, you got away from us, but you can join us again. You know, they're trying to get me to dialogue with them, you know, which I wouldn't advise, but I have a different opinion on that. But so, you know, Bonnie came in and sat down and, you know, here's this facial presentation of anger and murder and all this. So I just talked past the demon. Now, I could have jumped in now, started yelling, you know, started into a major deliverance situation there. But from where I come from in terms of discipleship, I spoke with, I said, Bonnie, are you aware of this spirit that's so strong here? I know you are. And I knew she could hear me even though the demon was there. And I said, If you're aware of any doors that you've opened that allowed him to suddenly be here, you can just ask the Lord to close those doors. If you're not, I just encourage you to continue affirming, I command this spiritual leaving. He has no right in my life. I command him to go where Jesus Christ sends him. I will not allow him to be here. And so I said to the pastor, I said, can you think of any verses that talk about our God, what a great God He is, the King of kings and the Lord of lords. We started using the weapon of praise. You know, isn't it good? God is so good. What God is there like our God that is so near to us when we call, you know? And so we were just affirming scripture and using the weapon of praise. Before very long, the spirit wasn't evicted, but he receded, and then Bonnie was there. And I was able to talk with her, and we were able to find out, actually from a part, why the demonic was able to be so strong back then, and where that very strong demon was from, and she was able to evict him. She was able to, because she has just as much authority as I do, Corrie Ten Boom did, and Billy Graham does, as any of us do, as we're in Christ. But to me, that was an example. When she came back, she was herself very briefly, but then the Lord knew it wasn't the core personality who understood, and it opened the door to this demonic being that was one of the parts. So that part suddenly was there. And I said, well, is there anything that you think the Lord wants you to tell me? And right away, oh, yeah. She was starting to mention why or how she viewed this demon as her friend. You know, this is a protector for her. So we talked through all that. If you get sidetracked with the demonic when you're working with DID, you can sort of be run around in circles. The time when I encourage people to become involved with addressing the demonic is when it's causing such a blockage and confusion and disturbance in the situation that you can't proceed. When I mentioned that I wasn't able at first to deal with the demonic, I wanted to, but when the pastor would say, well, why don't you pray out loud and say blah, blah, blah? I'd say, OK. And I'd start to pray, and I'd either go catatonic or I'd fall faint or couldn't talk or was deaf or all kinds of strange things happened. So he would say, well, why don't you agree with me as I pray? I've changed that a little now when I work with folks and I say, well, if a person, even if there's a demonic presence there and they're not even, the person isn't able to verbalize anything, I encourage them, why don't you say this inside as loudly as you can? And so when I pray, I'd say, Lord, I agree. You know that Betty doesn't want the spirit to be here. Betty belongs to you and she's chosen you. And I stand with Betty and her authority in Christ and agree with her that any place that this enemy has deemed access, we would close those doors in your name. We destroy all the works that this enemy has wanted to build in Betty's life. And I agree with Betty and we command this spirit so that I'm not exercising my authority in Christ, I'm agreeing with her authority in Christ. Because she's going to leave my office in 45 minutes, and the enemy's going to whisper in her ear, well, Elaine's strong enough to handle me, but you're not. Your authority is insane. And I wanted to model for her that her authority is insane. Why don't we get a microphone here? Is it always demonic when they're so shut down that they can't pray or could it be that they're so deeply wounded that they just can't go there? They're shut down by something, either the demonic or there may be a part that has a greed. I will never tell anybody again. Or there's a protector part inside, not a demon. But they function as sort of the telephone operator that controls a lot of what goes on on the inside. And in a misguided effort to protect, Especially if they've been spiritually abused before, they know you're a Christian. They may be the ones that are locking down the system. And so the person isn't talking. What if that effect is just due to such a perverse distortion of the truth that they can't pray? Is that different or is that the same? What do you mean by that? How would that... I'm not quite... that I wouldn't think of praying to him. But you know, some of our... Usually there isn't the initial agreement when you say, would you like to pray to the true God, the Good Shepherd, the God who wrote the Bible, specifying which God you're talking about. And they say, yeah. And then they can't. You know that there is someone inside who wants to pray. whether the strong presenting one does it doesn't still you can say well i know that there are some inside who love the lord jesus and i'm encouraging you to and i'm agreeing with you this kind of thing there was a question earlier to find healing do you have to does each of the part first of all do you have to talk to all the parts of the person and the answer is no you don't have that much time the second one is Do you have to remember every traumatic event that the person has had? The answer is no. Only the ones that the Lord knows are crucial to find healing. That's why if you encourage them at the beginning by saying, Are you willing to pray, Lord? I'm willing to go anywhere in my past you want me to go. I refuse any deception, but I'm willing to go anywhere you want me to go. And you get done praying and you say, has anything come to mind? And they immediately say, well, you know, I was remembering, I'd forgotten about this for years and it just popped into my mind while we were praying. That's probably a good sign, even if you're not a rocket scientist, that that's a good place to begin. The other question is, well, do you have to, do each of the parts have to be saved in order to find healing? A lot has to do with, I'm real politically correct, my answer is yes and no. I'm ready to run for office. But what I'm saying is that a lot depends, for one thing, on when was a person saved. I was saved when I was seven. Well, there was abuse since I was three, but a lot of the abuse after seven happened within the worldview of a Christian, little Christian girl. And the healing that the Lord brought to me, I don't think ever once did I have a part that didn't know Christ and the counselor had to explain the truth, not to lead her to Christ, but to bring her. Remember, she's walled off with the amnesia. Bring her to the reality of the decision that the person has already made. It's like being a millionaire and you don't know it. So you say, well, did you know you're a millionaire? Well, I'm not a millionaire. Well, look, there's a checkbook there. you know, bringing the parts to the reality of what has already occurred. People don't go to heaven in pieces. If you have DID and you're not all the way healed and you die, you go to heaven if you've made a decision for Christ. But bringing the parts into the reality of what the core person has chosen, especially if they were saved, what if they were saved when they were 32? So their whole, the upbringing and where all the trauma was, was in a non-Christian context. Let's see, there's one more question coming in. Well, if you remember, you've asked me and I've forgotten. Please bring it up again, because there were five questions I already remembered for. Let's take a look quickly at what you have there called Pieces to the Puzzle. It doesn't have a page number on it, but it's the first page, I think, before 207, anyway. Again, this is one of those places where I get to just give my opinion on it. What does it mean that a person's healed of DID? Well, is it that when all the shattering is replaced with a wholeness? It's like a mirror that gets shattered. Is it when all the lost memories are reclaimed? Is it when a person is no longer triggered by things? Or is it when a person has reached a certain level of emotional stability or a person is able to function, can keep a job? Is that the When a person no longer abuses themselves either by cutting or doing something else or all of the above, I mean, what does healing for a DID person look like? Well, and that little, let me see if I can find my overhead, pieces to the puzzle that you have there. I think I'll put it all up so we can begin copying all the parts. These are what I, in my discipleship of folks with DID, I see these as at least nine pieces of the puzzle of healing. One of them is learning to wait. Learning to wait on the Lord is the bigger scope, but there's such an impatience to be healed right away because the pain and anguish is so incredible. that by gashing yourself with razor blades lessens the pain. In comparison with the inner pain, doing that focuses your attention on something that's less painful often. So learning how to wait, learning how to persevere, learning to trust God. A lot of the patients that I've dealt with That were cutting did it because so they could feel because they've been so shut down, right? There are other other reasons for cutting when I just stay in reality so you don't To feel or to often to show what was done to you some of the nonverbal parts Do what was done to them as a little one? fighting hopelessness They learn to accept the truth that they do have DID. It's such a pernicious thought that you're making it up in some sick attempt to get attention. All the way through, you know, I used to remember a situation in my counselor's office, and by the time I got to the waiting room and saw that they had a rug on the floor that was similar to the design in this rug, actually, by the time I walked across that rug, I would begin doubting whether that is it. Well, you know, I'm not sure. I mean, your mind is looking. Your mind has worked for years to say it didn't happen. So you're looking for clues. Well, I don't remember Uncle John having that coat, you know, I saw in that memory. I can't remember if he wore that coat or not, you know, and just looking. Well, then it got to be, I could get to the parking lot and still believe that it was true, that it had happened. Then till I got home, then, you know, an hour later. And then it got where I could really, I knew for sure in the counselor's office, The Lord confirmed that it did happen, but it was really hard to retain that reality because the mind was so practiced in denying it. Steeping your mind in the word, that's part of healing. Learning to cope, ITMT, which means in the meantime. This is the one learning how to be normal. How do you go to a dentist and have a man come up with an inch of your face and put something in your mouth and breathe heavily? That's very, very frightening, you know? Or going to the dentist or doctor or going wherever. Going to church and they have rings of candles and people in black robes. You know, how do you get through that? How do you learn how to sit around a table and eat with people? It's things that we would all take for granted that depending on the level of abuse and chaos in the home that easily encompasses Accompany the abuse. Normal things need to be done. I used to think it was so claustrophobic to sit at a table and eat with people, because I'd never eaten around a table. At home, we just all ate separately. And it just was so strange for me to have a door that didn't have a lock on it. It was just really traumatic for me to live in a house or there was a husband and wife there, I could hear footsteps and I had a little knock on my side of the door. Just things that we wouldn't even normally think of. How do you do that? Well, this is real practical. How about if you're going to the dentist and you take one of those little teeny inch tall teddy bears, in your pocket and you can fuzz it as they say, you know, fuzz his ears. So if little ones get suddenly as strong and terrified in the middle, you can remind, and you set it up, this will remind you how much God loves you or how much God is protecting you. So you can often associate it not just as teddy bears there, but this could remind you that there's a comforter or whatever. So there's little ways to deal with that. sitting in the back of the church instead of up in the front so that if there is a problem you can just stand up or leave or come back or whatever. Restoring our soul. This is, we do a lot with folks in studying what God does for our soul. It's really, you know, encouraging study for us all. God is really concerned about our soul. And then integrating or merging. That's where the It isn't that the parts die or, you know, take off or something like that, but I call integration, it's when the parts take their rightful place. The parts take their rightful place. It's like if you're an artist and you have, if you're DID, you have a palette of colors that are very vivid. You have no summer tones for those of you that went through that Color Me or whatever tone colors look best on you. You have fuchsias and you have blacks and you have wild colors, you know, neon things in your emotions, but they're all separate. You have one place inside that is intense rage and anger. You have another that is filled with guilt. You have another place that has such sadness that it just cries all the time. And they're all divided. Whereas most people have a palette of a wide range. They have dark reds, light reds, pinks, mauves, roses. So that they can mediate those emotions based on all the other emotions. But for DID, those have been separated off so that when you have a merging happen, what it's like is that part of you that used to handle one thing, a monofaceted part, now joins you in the rightful place, that emotion where God intended it to be, so that it can be mediated by your other emotions. Let me give you an example. I should have known when I was in the car wash line, I had quarters in my hand to put in the car wash, and I sort of was, I was jiggling them in a funny way, and I remember thinking, well, this is funny. This seemed a little odd to me that I was rattling these things, and I knew I was rattling them, but somehow it just seemed like there was something else going on. Well, I had waited and waited and waited. I had a part in me, they used to call her the Duchess, because her hatred of men was such that she had decided that she wanted someday to have a castle, and the only thing men were good for was being serfs in a castle. That was her philosophy. So she had a lot of trouble with men, and she was soon to have been the original woman's liberator. Well, as I was waiting in line there, this trucker came by, and he had one of those trucks It was like a pickup, but it was on these huge wheels, you know, real tall. And he zooped in right ahead of me, right when the stall got vacant. And I wasn't certain. That duchess part of me just was ready to kill this guy. So I watched myself. At that time, I was what they call cold conscious. So I could be aware. It was like I was dreaming and seeing it. And it was a transition from having total amnesia not realizing at all what was going on. But I watched myself get out of the car and go up to his window. And of course, it was such a tall truck that the window was kind of like this to me. And he had this huge tattoo on his arm, you know, this big husky-like football player. And I went up to him and I said, do you have a problem? And he said, oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, were you here? I'm sorry. And he backed up. And later I thought, what if he hadn't responded that way? I might have had more problems. Well now, when I'm in a situation where there's a bit of danger in the sense that, if I sense that I'm in a situation in a crowd, whether it's at church or out there, and there's just an inappropriate closeness, if a man stands close to me, and it's what I call breaking my space. You know those times when you just don't feel comfortable with this? The duchess doesn't jump out and tell him off, Neither is there a place now of the Duchess. The Duchess's feelings and responses are part of me and I can feel that thing that basically is saying, non-verbally, I have a right to be respected and I'm not going to let anyone disrespect me. It's not right that he's doing this and I have a right to be cautious with. And the feeling that accompanies that is really similar to the feeling when it was totally separate And the Dutchess went out and told that guy off. I think it's important that we understand what happens in merging, because can you imagine, I mean, folks have only had this inner world of communication and interaction, and suddenly they're led to believe the thought that the goal is to kill everybody off and just leave you there. That's not the goal, that's not what integration is. Each place takes, each part takes its rightful place. and the wholeness and the sense of well-being that you get from that. I don't know that it can be explained in any other way. If you see integration as your goal, as a disciple and a counselor, that that's the only thing, and it can be done quick and easy. Okay, one, two, three, are you ready to integrate now? Okay. The problem that comes is that they found someone that They're beginning to trust they found someone who they know cares. So they'll play a game. Nobody in here but us chickens. They, oh yeah, no, they merge. Yeah, that's all taken care of, you know. Or they may, you know, just insist that the ones that are causing trouble inside go way back. And there's competition, and I'm not sure how that goes on, but I know that there's, almost a hierarchy that there are powerful parts inside. The protector is the one that you want to get as an ally because that's the person that controls so much of what goes on or who says what or who comes forward. But they will shove everything down temporarily because they see your disappointment when they leave in 45 minutes and they're not integrated with that part. It's really counterproductive because And one thing, they're just performing, they're being controlled by your desire to have success and how you define that. And it just puts the whole process of feeling back. Now you find that things come unraveled again very quickly. Maybe just on the bottom of that page, you could jot a few things down. I tried to look back in terms of my own healing and each situation is very different, which is the reason I encouraged you not to bring a cookie cutter home with you from this conference and stamp it on everybody's life in the same way. But maybe there's some general characteristics. I tried to think of what did my healing look like? One of the main points that the Lord reminded me of was that God brought me hope. Somewhere within there was this thought that God had the answer for this He also led me into a desperate search for the truth At one point as I said, I couldn't hold a Bible I would throw it against the wall But I could hold a little card that had a concept of truth God isn't mad at me. That's not a verse, but it's a concept based on a verse. Or I could have an audio tape of my counselor reading a verse over and over. He taught me how to fight was another thing he did for me. He taught me how to fight. And he used other people to teach me how to be normal. I moved in with the pastor that helped me find the spiritual deliverance and freedom from bondage. Lived for about seven months and then passed away. He was very young. And I moved in with his widow and his two children. He had requested not only that I could help with the children, but then obviously I would have a safe place. I continued to find emotional healing. But it was all new to me to be part of a place where things weren't thrown around the room or knives weren't drawn at dinner time or at night or, you know, drunkenness wasn't there. It was just learning to be normal. I called it growing up backwards. It was real helpful to me to watch, to watch families in action, even at church, and see normalcy. I remember I could sit there, and the man in front of me would reach around and put his hand around the shoulders of this three-year-old, and I would be terrified. And then I began to see nothing happen when he did that. He didn't inappropriately touch her. And I could tell by his face that he seemed to really like to be very tender toward her. Above all, when I was talking about giving hope, he really helped me to see that it was a process, that healing was a process. I ran into some bumps in the road. I went to a counselor that must have taken one class in DID or something, or MPD as it used to be called. His idea was that people dissociated because they didn't want to face reality. So he would purposely trigger me and then tell me to practice not switching. And that then when I couldn't, and I would obviously swear it, he would say that I wasn't willing to face reality, you know, and so nothing he could do for me. We'd come week after week and he'd scare me and trigger me and I'd practice trying to stay in there. I mean, this was my only hope, I thought. So there again, you get to playing the games that later look bizarre. But at the time, you're thinking, well, this is the only game in town as far as I know of someone being willing to help me. But the Lord made it very clear that if I had down times, if I fell into the suicide or the cutting again, I used to get very discouraged because I thought, well, that used to be such a problem early on, and now here it is again. At one point, I was reading a Bible study in the church and fell into some of these things again. And then the Lord said to me, because I said, it's just as deep a pit as it was initially. And he said, yes, but how long has it been since you've been in this pit? And the space between the pits got longer and longer. If hope is so important, and we know the enemy had to discourage anybody from working here, we need to be able to realistically encourage them. First, it won't always be this way, but also it's not like it was. Give them a perspective that they may not have because they're so close to the situation. There's a page on hindrances to healing. I'll just go through this quick because I want to get to that, my seven steps. No apologies to Neil Anderson, seven steps of healing at DID. But hindrances, page 207. What hinders healing? The first thing I put down from the helper's perspective is the helper's ego. We won't say much about that because we've said about it before. Pulling back in an unboundaried, I think I coined the word there, unboundaried relationship with the hurting person. In other words, I'm going to really get in there and help this person and I'm not praying and asking the Lord where the bounties are. You can call me anytime at home and dinner time and all you call me all night. Anytime there's a crisis, since I'm the man on the white horse, I'll rush in and save you. I'll be there every minute of the day and we make all these promises and then it's just not realistic. And also we frankly just start burning out. So we think, well, Lord, what are your boundaries? And the Lord's boundaries may lead you to retrench and pull back from where you had lunged ahead. And that's very harmful to the hurting person. It doesn't mean that you stay in this unbounded situation, but you need to really tread very carefully. and how you handle that so that the person doesn't assume that you're abandoning them. See, you can do 199 things correctly, and it's the one thing, it might be you got up, you had a headache, so when the hurting person comes in, they ask you something, and you go like this. You go, see, they're giving up on me. He's giving up on me. wear him out the way I want, everybody else. Now they've done 199 things absolutely compassionately and mercifully. Or heaven forbid, like all of us, we may just expose some of our frustration, you know, with the person or get mad. I mean, you have to be with hurting people. If you think about it, when you break your leg and go to the emergency room, have any of you ever broken a bone in your body? I'm telling you, everything in your body tried to keep it from being broken. So you've got all this collateral muscle ligaments and everything damaged. Well, that pain, when you go to the emergency room, when the doctor comes in and looks at your leg, you don't go, doctor, I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for your care. You are an excellent doctor. I can see that now. And I just want to take a minute and stop and thank you for all that you've done. I mean, no, you're in pain, you don't, I mean, you might write him a letter of thank you later, but at the time, you focus on your pain, and in that focus on your pain, it's very easy to, at times, be very caustic with you as a helper. And sometimes if you react in frustration, it's that one time versus 199 times. The solution being, you know, when I came in yesterday, there seemed to be a little change here. And, you know, I hope you weren't taken too personally. I had a very bad headache, you know, just to be honest. Or, you know, I'm sorry that I said that. I spoke out of frustration. It really bothers me to see you in this pain. And out of that, I just kind of blew out and I'm sorry. Is there a question back there or a comment? Okay. All right. Good. Remaining detached and unconnected is another hindrance to healing. Those of you that have heard Jim Wildick talk say, he says that, he said, well, he's seen the room of counselors, and he said, counselors, I hate to tell you this, but it's not all our fancy degrees and all the techniques that we've learned that makes a difference in whether people find healing in that. Most of what they found is that if you're a counselor, you can tell that he cares for you and wants to see you find healing. Those are the people that will find you, even if the techniques aren't that great or whatever. The acceptance, I'm glad you exist, I'm glad you are alive, that they can see in your eyes is really important. But to remain detached and unconnected, I had another counselor. Actually, my counselor was fine, but he said, well, there's this other counselor that wants to learn about NPD, and would you mind meeting with them? And I thought, well, OK. So I went, and he had his clipboard, and he sat with me. Well, how long have you felt this way, you know, and you were going on like that? So, um, the Lord brought up some memories and he would say that very detached, you know, how did you feel? Finally, I had a partner and she didn't have sanctified vocabulary, so I won't be too specific, but she said, how dare you once again, let me live through this alone. And he, fortunately, he really changed his persona, if I heard that, but it's true. To, they've lived through it alone initially, and to remain very uninvolved is abuse. Some of the most powerful times are when people have seen a counselor weep, or had them say, you know, that was in the sense, I'm so sorry that was done to you. Placing blame on a hurting person for failure to make progress. Well, she's probably a borderline Methodist. There's borderlines in our myth anyway. We talked about that yesterday. It's a church plant. She's a church plant. Somebody had talked to me earlier about church plants. What they meant by it was that there are some people in the occult that are assigned to a certain church. I know in our neighborhood we have, in Keller Springs, there's an occult group there. assign people to specifically pray against specific churches, but sometimes they show up at the meeting. Fortunately, the pastor, the Lord has been a great discernment, so when they come down the line, he knows they're not coming for prayer. They're coming probably to touch him, shake his hand, or to even find a little scrap of something that they can go home and do their incantations on or something like that. Well, what should you do with church clans? If there's a woman in your church and you think, well, somebody has said that she's just here to cause dissension. Well, it always goes back to that question, whose God is greater? The enemy might have sent her for evil, but the Lord intends it for good. What would happen if you showed her unconditional love in such a way, within the boundaries that the Lord gives you, that she turns from the darkness and starts singing to the choir? I think it's a much healthier reaction than getting very scared and saying, we never want you to come back to this church again. And there may be times for that. I don't know. I think most of the times when that's done, it grows out of a fear. And whenever we act out of fear, we should be a bit suspect. I'm going to take the mic over there. One of the churches that I had been a member of for a number of years had an individual come in. Now they never allowed anyone to talk to them. I knew that it was a plant. So those of us that were sensitive in the spirit and realized this, we started to get together and pray, and pray for his salvation and blessing of the Lord to be upon him. And before he finally ended up just disappearing from the scene, when he returned, we knew he was a changed man. He still never said a word. He always disappeared, but we could see it in his countenance. So we do have weapons even when we don't know what is going on. Great. Well, let's end our time today with the stages of DID healing. It's on page 208. Those of you that know me often hear me fling around the term SPDs. That's what I call single personality disorders. That's everybody of us that doesn't have DID or MPD. of what I'm being facetious about is to get the point across that we're all in the same hospital. Some of us have just checked in earlier than others, like C.S. Lewis said. But we have different, the Lord leads us through different things for sanctification and through discipleship. It's very intense sometimes with SPDs, but it's also very intense often with DIDs. When I present this in a DID context, knowing that most DIDs are so afraid that they're going crazy, All the way through the hearing, they just think they're going crazy. So I've used this thing, I'm going crazy, we're going crazy. The DIDs understand it perfectly. They get a chuckle out of it. The STDs kind of look confused, like, what is that about? So pardon me, I was forgetting I was working with STDs. You know, I can't figure out how STDs think. I mean, it takes a ministry team to work with those folks. They wear you out. They just wear you out. Single personality disorder. That if the pastor has a situation that he's not familiar with, like somebody comes in that's addicted to pornography or someone has eating disorders, he's never experienced that, he's never been trained that, he can give the person this tape. And two of the tapes we did for them, one is called You're Not Going Crazy, and it's a conversation for someone who found out they have DID. The other one is you can go back to the innocence, which is recovering from sexual abuse. So both of those are on our website. And we found that a lot of people find it real helpful, especially the DID, this concept of being crazy. Often if there's a bunch of tapes on the church thing, the DID see that you're not going crazy and they had to write for it because it's such a pernicious fear. Step one is the I'm going crazy part. how you could define this and please leave a little room. I talked to lots of DIDs and put together a list of what they think from their perspective would have been the most helpful or would be the most helpful if the church responded to them when they're at this stage in these ways. So you need to leave room to put those ways in there. And I'm not suggesting that these are clearly defined steps and you graduate and get tassels and hats and everything. What I'm saying is, what I've seen is a general progress in the healing process. They've experienced unusual, unexplainable events for years in this step one. They've experienced unusual, unexplainable events. Lots of times, two different sets of clothing. I used to have very Victorian clothes. was back in New York City in the 60s and 70s where people wore long skirts. I had long dresses to the floor with high collars and long sleeves and very, very Victorian. And then I had streetwalker clothes on the other side. See through this and see through that. Why do I have these two kinds of clothes? And I really couldn't understand it. And during this step, I might as well infuse these things in as we go. How can we as disciples or encouragers help folks at the very beginning? This is what they said, don't be scared of me. Don't let me see that look in your eye that says that you think I have antennas coming out of the top of my head. Don't try to get me to remember a recent event I may have no conscious memory of. Well, no, don't you remember when we had that talk there and you said you'd bring that cake to the ladies? No, no, no, just think it. Remember, see, I was standing over by that. Do you remember that? They don't remember it. Remind me that I'm not going crazy and tell me you believe it. Step two is the, you're going crazy part. What I mean there is, DID is a suggested diagnosis. Someone tells the person, you know, you may have this thing called DID. That's step two. And there's really a lot of difficulty, usually, in most people accepting it. Isn't it funny, you'd think that if you lived such a bizarre life all your life, you'd be ready to jump at anything as a diagnosis. But depending on your level, for one thing of understanding what DID is and the fact that there's healing for DID, you may know, I don't know what it is, but it's not DID, that's all I know. Sometimes the enemy uses this as a person is suggested and they start having memories and the belief keeps coming back, I must be making this, I must be terribly sick to do all this memory stuff to get attention or something, I don't know what's wrong with me. It didn't happen, didn't happen, didn't happen. To encourage the person to say, whatever is true about my past, I choose to believe that. Whatever is true about my past, I choose to believe that. I give that whole job up to God. He's going to have to sort it out. Otherwise, you go round and round in circles. And during this stage, how can we be encouragers? When the anguish comes and the person says, did these horrible things really happen to me? Remind me to affirm my truth, to believe whatever is true about my past. We just mentioned that. Again, remind me that I'm not going crazy. And tell me you believe me. Those are two that show up again. Step three is the we're going crazy step, and what I mean by that is the person who may up to this point have had total amnesia and total barriers between the parts now may begin to hear conversation. Some people right from the beginning do that. I didn't. I was something ambulistic or whatever the fancy word is. But to me, that For example, I'd go into the counselor's office, and I'd sit there, and he'd say, well, let's have a word of prayer. And I'd pray, and then the next minute, I'd be sitting over in another chair. I'd kick my shoes off, and my eyes were very puffy as though I'd been crying. And I didn't have any, he'd have to tell me, well, you know, what went on. Interestingly enough, I don't know whether it was what I focused on when a part came by, but if I learned, if I scanned the room, like maybe that chandelier, Somehow, if I looked at the chandelier, I could remember what went on. And I don't know whether it was like the parts sort of were looking at that while they were talking, or I don't know what it was, but... Don't tell me everything another part of me did or said to you unless I want to know. In other words, at the end, you need to be, I think, a bit careful. I know a lady who, she had been, she saved up and stole as much money as she could from her father. He was in the military, but he was an alcoholic and he used to hire her out to his military buddies. So, one night when he was drunk, she stole all the money she could and ran off at age eleven and a half and lived on the streets for three years, living out of garbage cans. A policeman found her and gave her the option to either go to jail or sleep with him. So she slept with him. And her first child was born by that policeman. Well, a part told me that. And they said, we don't want you to tell her. She'd crack up. She couldn't handle it or whatever. Well, it put me in a dilemma because I wanted to talk to her about it. Would it completely stall everything if I betrayed what the part had told me? And I decided not to tell her at that time. But some people really want to know. Other people, no, I don't want to know. They probably said embarrassing things. Whatever, but just don't tell me. Remind me that I'm not going crazy and tell me that you believe me. A lot of the abuse that's done has the insidious overlay of, well, if you tell, nobody's going to believe you anyway. They're going to think you're crazy. They're going to lock you up if you tell. So that's why it's so crucial to see by people's facial expression as well as their words that they're being believed. Step four is we're going crazy all the time. This is what I call the Rolodex step. The rolodex, you know, you go from one address and name to another. And this is the most chaotic. There's usually a lot of memories that surface here. There's a lot of intense emotional pain that gets exposed and emotional upheaval. This is the time when a lot of churches give up on folks. Because it's quite bizarre sometimes. The church, the offering plate may come by and they'll put a note in there. cut my hands off after church or something. Or they'll go running out, you know, of a service or they'll be in the middle of communion and drop the communion plate because they're shaking so badly. And the church finds it real easy at this point to find a reason to suggest they might go elsewhere. Don't believe the lie that my parts are merely demons that need to be cast out. Just be with me during the very hardest times. This is why if you have a ministry team at church that works with severely damaged folks, you can have people who are friends. You can have people who are Bible teachers. You can have people that are the bridge between this person, often a single person, and the church activities. to notice when they're not there. I mean, a counselor or one person can't deal with, at this stage, all that is going on in the person's life. Don't be afraid of me. I used to have such a demonic presence with me that many churches and many church people were very frightened of me. Not only could I see it in their eyes, but they also verbalized it. They would just assume that I went to another church. Remind me that it won't always be this bad. Don't treat me like a space alien after a bad episode. And again, remind me that I'm not going crazy and tell me you believe me. People say, well, how long does it take for a DID person to find healing? And then sometimes I say to them, well, how long does it take for an SPD to find healing? That's how you define healing, I guess. I tend to define healing. Authentic healing is accomplished by discipleship. And it's just sanctification is what I see. There's intense issues, there's unique things like memory work and that that needs to be done. But the next step, step five to me, is the one that can speed up the process to find at least a measure of stability much earlier on That's step five, let me help you not go crazy. This is where the person takes on a new role themselves. When Dr. Umberly was talking about that world missions on the inside, your inner self missions, this is kind of this where the person takes on a new role of helping the inside. It's almost like they become the counselor and do the same thing during the week. to the voices, with the voices inside that the counselor does once a week. Up till this time they may have been very mad at the inside because they may have a part that acted out promiscuously and encouraged people to abuse them and so they don't want anything to do with that. Or they may have parts that take them to dangerous places. You know, we get calls. Hi, I don't know how to drive and this number is here. Who's this? And I say, well, this is the name. So I say, OK, now, do you see the signs, the street signs? Do you know your letters? Yeah. Can you spell out the letter of the street? You're on W-O-O-D, you know. So, I mean, here's somebody that's gone to the red light district. as an adult person and then suddenly there's been a switch and now there's somebody who doesn't know how to drive, a four-year-old there. Life is interesting, isn't it? But to see at this point cooperation between the core person and the parts inside really speeds it ahead. For example, there is a way to prevent untimely triggers at this stage and beyond. But it's a learned, I found it's a learned thing. I found there's a window of time that when things start to get triggered, if the person can bring truth and care and affirmation to the inside, it can temporarily be sort of put on the back burner until a more appropriate time. I used to, even when I started teaching college, I still wasn't totally healed. And sometimes I'd look up and all the students at the university were just kind of staring at me. And I thought, what in the world have I said or done or looked? So I learned the skill of saying, well, let's take a break from that right now and move on to something else. Because I didn't know what we had talked about, you know. Well, if what would happen sometimes, I'd be there and all of a sudden, I'd feel this terror start to erupt. Now, at first there was no thought to it. And it was during that window of terror that I could bring some help to that situation. There would first be a terror, and then... See, what had happened was my supervisor walked by, and he reminded me of a guy that had been a perpetrator. Well, I wasn't conscious of this, I was just sitting there teaching. Somewhere inside, they were very conscious of this. There was this terror, not remembering him, but another situation. Then comes the thought, after the intense feeling, Uncle John's gonna kill us, you know. Or he's gonna kill us might be there and then if I could say well, what's wrong? You know when the tear came inside I could verbalize what's wrong? He's gonna kill us who's gonna kill Uncle John's gonna kill him. Why didn't you know to dialogue enough? To say I'm not trying to push away your memory or this but this really isn't the time That's not I don't verbalize that but instead of if I tried to push the memory down It made it so that it got more intense Because once again, nobody listens to me inside, and that's what the feeling was. So I would say to the Lord, build a gate around it. I'm in a fence. Build a gate around it, Lord, until the right time. So I put it in the Lord's hand when that memory would resurface. So it wasn't trying to not remember. It was saying, Lord, would you bring this to a time when it's more convenient, more appropriate to remember this? Step six is the, I'm not going crazy as often part. We've reached the top of the hill. There's less triggers, less suicide attempts, and as we said, they may be as intense, the bad times, but there's more space in between them, is the question. I'm sorry, thank you. Stage five, teach me how to work with myself. When I'm triggered, don't try to get me to think rationally. Instead, lead me to the truth about what I'm believing at the time. If I'm terrified, don't say, well, you know, you really don't have any reason to be frightened. You're really 38 years old. And for some people, that may be a bit helpful, but it's not a rational terror. It's an irrational emotional terror. Remember that I'm reacting on two levels. Don't take what I say or do personally. How many of you have ever had any of the people that you're working with say, I hate you, and see your hands? Those of you that didn't raise your hands, be prepared. You really find out how much of your flesh controls things when you take some, I mean, You start having this general dislike for this person, and it's just an edge at first, and then it's like, oh, man, okay. After all I've done for them, and they tell me you're not doing enough, blah, blah, blah. Remind me that I'm not going crazy and tell me you believe me. In step six, now that we've made it past the hill a little bit, okay. When my progress forward seems to take a dip, remind me that it's not the same as it used to be. Point to the amount of time between my bad episodes. Don't be afraid to let me use my spiritual gifts to minister in appropriate situations. You've got some paperwork on what your church is missing if you're not ministering to hurting people, and one of them is a room full of worshipers. There's a lady in our church who came through SRA Most people don't know that, but she's on one of the worshipings now. When I see her standing up there, glorifying the God of heaven. Delphine Omega, it's amazing. Remind me that I'm not going crazy. Tell me you believe me. The last step is, I remember when I used to go crazy. The place of stability and spiritual freedom the price of emotional healing and growth. Remember we talked about, facetiously about dichotomous and trichotomous yesterday. Dichotomous are people that think there's two categories of people in the world, healthy and sick. And praise the Lord, I'm in the healthy category. And I can't let these people in the church do anything and get involved in anything because they're sick, until they get healthy. But instead, the three of all of us have issues that at times are very, very intense. And it may even prevent us from finding help with an issue. If we have that worldview that says, if I admit that there's still this area, I need some tweaking and some healing, it'll mean that I'm one of them, one of the sick people. Instead of, well, Lord, is this the time you want me to deal with this issue? In step seven, leave the door open for me to come to you occasionally when I may need a mini tune-up or a word of encouragement. Sure. Yep. There's some other materials in this section about the baggage of a hurting person and some of the others. We won't take time to go over it, but I think if you can remember on those charts, the top of it has to do with unique characteristics of emotionally damaged people. And down below, I forgot to turn my phone off, down below is what you might proactively do in a class situation to deal with that. I think you have there those charts that say begging to a hurting person. Does anybody know what page those are on? Do you have it in front of you? Excuse me? No, it's charts about, it's in actually the last session about, I think discernment and deception is what it is. I don't have my book in front of me. Mike, can you take the microphone back? In every example that Dr. Rumberger and you have used, you've referred to the person as being a female. Is that because there is a noticeably higher rate of DID in women than men? And if that is the case, should we be sensitive to maybe trying to find qualified female personnel to help with this? Does that help expedite the, procedure as opposed to having men, whom I'm assuming perpetrated most of the atrocities on these women? That's a good question. I think the statistics that I remember someone saying is that there may be more women in general that have DID, but there may be many, many men who are undiagnosed because we mentioned earlier that often men act out things, they may end up in prison, or whereas women tend to, I think, to deal with some of these traumas later on in their life in a little different way. They're usually more open at some point at talking with someone and meeting with someone. Someone has said that 95% of the people who are diagnosed with DID are women and 5% are men, but that doesn't account for misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. In terms of whether a female counselor should counsel with a female, for one thing, The caveat is here that if a man is counseling with a woman, regardless of whether it's DAD or others, it's really helpful and careful to have a woman present. A lot of women have been abused by their mothers, and so for them, a woman is not a safe person. A caring male is much different than a perpetrating male. And hurting people can spot that. So it's not necessarily a gender thing that you need to strictly stick with. When I have some basic history on a person and I know that there's been some abuse issues, one of the very first things I ask them is if they're comfortable with a male counselor. Right. Just asking if they are comfortable. Well, I think that there's a question and answer time coming up right after the break. So if you want to take 20 minutes and then come back, I don't know how that's set up, but we'll figure it out between now and then.