Today on Pilgrim Radios, here's people Nick Batsig with wisdom from the Bible and using social media. So I'm not exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit. Is there love? Is there joy? Is there peace, gentleness, faithfulness, kindness, self-control in how I'm speaking and how I'm responding to things? Because that really becomes an example to others around us. And in that sense, we are, and I believe we are called by God to live out a Christian life in order to be a blessing to others. and to build them up, and we do that with how we respond, especially publicly. Nick Batsig, next. Social media enables users to make lightning-fast responses to stories they see on their newsfeeds. Unfortunately, sometimes the information is less credible, but the damage is done. Presbyterian pastor Nick Batsig would like to see our social media use governed by biblical wisdom. He wrote the piece, Let's Make Wisdom Great Again, for the Reformation 21 blog, which he edits. He was the organizing pastor of New Covenant Presbyterian Church in Richmond Hill, Georgia. Pastor Batsik, what prompted this particular piece? Well, I have been concerned for many years about the way that we so quickly receive information, you know, we live in a technological society with social media everything passed and uh... uh... so many of us don't take time to process and to think through what we're hearing and i think on many occasions it's become clear over the last certainly ten years that uh... stories come out and people jump on stories and circulate and numbers grow about a story uh... that it it always doesn't become clear that we actually know what really happened i certainly don't want to go down the route but sort of just talking fake news and reducing it to that. But my concern is that we often talk about things that we're not very informed on, and maybe we shouldn't even be receiving or talking about, because it's really irrelevant to us, or we wouldn't be able to have all the facts. And we're just very quick to rush to judgment, and I think the Bible has a great deal to say about that and to warn about that. your piece, of course, grew out of. It was in response to the situation with students with Covington High School in Kentucky, something which happened in Washington, D.C. Some people may know the story, others may not be familiar with it at all. I'm wondering if you could give us a recap of that situation and what happened, what concerned you. Sure. Several weeks ago, I think it was on a Sunday, maybe two or three Sundays ago, a story had come out. gained very very quick traction i think i first thought on maybe cnn or fox news about uh... the group of students who were attending uh... pro-life rally i think it was in dc and they had that video that was circulating with uh... of the boy i think his name is nick sentiment didn't do it standing in front of the indian chief uh... it would be in the drama and sort of what appeared to be smirking and maybe even inciting him, might be the first conclusion someone might draw and people did draw. And as the story unfolded, it became very clear that what we were seeing was just a soundbite of the actual video and that what gained a lot of traction through Twitter and through one fake Twitter account who had doctored the video, essentially, and who had selectively pitched a story that these students were bigots and that they had incited this Indian chief. And they were all wearing Make America Great Again hats. And so that just fueled, obviously, the vitriol. And then it became very clear within a week or a week and a half that the story had actually been fabricated, and it wasn't accurate at all. So that's the general gist of it. And when it was initially, I don't know if reported is the right way to put it, but as you say, a blogger outside of the U.S. picked this up and spread this on Twitter, as I understand it, the responses were by non-believer and believer alike. I think even the kids on high school condemned them. Yeah, they received a swift condemnation across the board. They were, what I like to say, they were tried and convicted and sentenced in twitter court and and on the media and you know the court of public opinion is the worst court that you could ever be tried and yet it seems to be the court that most of us have given legitimacy and credence to versus civil courts and ecclesiastical courts which are really the only courts God has ordained. To the credit of some of the news media, they did speak with the student and got his perspective, as well as the Native American leader who was beating the drum in front of the young man. Were there any apologies by the news media? Did anybody say, we spoke too quickly here, or did people just kind of move on? There were a few exonerations, I might say, from public. media sources i i believe the washington post first ran a story that i like to in the article i wrote where they uh... explained how quickly someone's reputation uh... is ruined and how quickly we can ruin people's reputations with flander or falsification uh... definition of character based on uh... probably functions and and and statement and i think there was an article actually that cnn published where they they also backpedaled and said, actually, we didn't have all the facts. And there were those things. And then in Twitter, there were those things. I did notice that the boy who has been singled out, Nick, he was interviewed by a prominent female anchor and I can't remember who she is, but that was quite a tense interview because she essentially had the facts at that point, but still wanted to ask him, well, do you feel guilty about what you did? Do you feel that you were wrong to just stand there? And so even after the facts came out, it was clear that they had not done what they were being said to have done. there was still no real strong apology issued to them that I saw. So what damage was done, as you say, to their reputation? And I want to get into the biblical principles, but just kind of laying out the consequences for this kind of, I think you called it collective outrage, jumping on the bandwagon of condemnation because of something that was put on social media, on Twitter, and then the damage which was done to the students and then even their families and the school. yes you know i believe that we we do not give enough thought to uh... the harm of slander or any any violation of the ninth commandment not to bear false witness against our neighbor and we tend to think there are great consequences for adultery for murder for uh... uh... that for any number of other uh... large-scale crime certainly violations of god's moral law but But slander is particularly damaging, and the Bible has a great deal to say about that. And, you know, I'm not sure that you can ever fully recover when you've been falsely accused on a global scale. There may be some sense where these boys will obviously go on to live their lives. They're not ruined, but the damage is done, and it's far and wide, and, you know, they've had death threats, I know. Their families have had death threats. Like you said, they were threatened, I think, to be expelled, and maybe that's not correct, but there was some sort of disciplinary action that even their high school had initially taken. They really became the objects of a lot of unjust consequences of slander. Well, my guest today on His People is Pastor Nick Batzik. We're talking about a piece that he wrote for Reformation 21. It's a blog of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. His article is Let's Make Wisdom Great Again. It's about using social media in a God-glorifying way. And thank you, Pastor Batzik, for setting up this discussion and the incident which went viral. I suppose you could say, across social media involving the high school students and that Native American leader banging the drum in Washington, D.C. And you say this is really, all of this is an example of our dire need to learn to put the Proverbs into practice. And I know there are numerous ones, but why do you go to the Proverbs? How do they help us address the situation? I believe that the Proverbs are God's covenantal wisdom for His people, for believers. I don't think that they're just general wisdom principles like the Code of Hammurabi. I think that they're supposed to be understood, especially in light of the Gospel and who Christ is, what He's done for us. how He's redeemed us, how He is God's wisdom, and so the Proverbs, they are reflections of the wisdom of God in Christ to be lived out by believers. So, while there's a sense where all people are held to the same standard, because we're all made in God's image and we all live in God's world, there's another sense in which God's people are held to a higher standard, because we are those who are supposed to listen to the wisdom of God, and by faith in Christ, by God's grace, we're supposed to be putting that wisdom into practice in our lives. And the Proverbs are so full of all the contours of wisdom. I had a friend who mentored me when I was very young, and he said that the Proverbs are sort of the echo board of wisdom that run all the way through Scripture and then out into every circumstance of life. And so, I believe that God requires us to try to implement this and to labor to implement this in our interactions and our day-in and day-out interactions, and especially when it comes to issues of receiving reports about people, speaking about people, when to speak, when not to speak, how to speak, when to engage an issue, when not to engage an issue. The proverbs really are just a complete divinely inspired manual for us to use. So I think that that's really what I wanted to get at in the article as I led in. as you say, based on wisdom principles from Proverbs, there are a number of questions we should ask when confronted by such a social media story, and one of those questions is, do we have all the facts? And I'm wondering if you could sort of unpack that for us, and how do we know if we have all the facts? And yes, there are numerous proverbs, and I won't cite the references, though I've listed a lot of those in that article. There are numerous proverbs that tell us that we ought to be essentially slow to make judgments, that we shouldn't be hasty. I think one of the proverbs says that a fool believes every word. So it is foolish if we just receive things and believe them. There's another proverb, and I cite that in the article as well, that each one who pleads his case seems right until his neighbor comes and examines him. So anyone can say anything about anyone, and yet that doesn't make it true. And so God demands that things, if they need to be investigated, they should be investigated, the care should be involved in that, and how we speak then and what judgments we discern or judgments we make need to be guided by the wisdom of the Proverbs and God's Word. Perhaps it's less today than ever before, but don't people typically tend to take the word of the news media or social media, kind of take it on face value often? Yes, I think we almost have an authority issue. So, you know, I happen to pastor in a denomination that is Reformed Presbyterian, we hold to the tenets of the Reformation, and we place the highest possible value on the sole authority of God's Word, that God's Word gives us everything necessary for life and godliness, that while it doesn't speak directly to everything, it speaks authoritatively, at least indirectly, to everything, and that we need God's Word to guide us and to be our standard of authority. what i think it's happened in recent years and i don't think it's in the article is that we've sort of allowed these competing authorities so that news sources twitter feeds again the court of public opinion what it's perceived justice what it's perceived injustice what what should we value and what should we fight for and what should we fight against are, it seems in many respects, determined more by what society is saying, especially through media sources, than from God's Word as the lens by which we read all of our experiences in society. So I don't know if that's helpful, but I do think you have a competing authority structure. Another of these questions to ask, you suggest, when confronted by something like this on a social media feed, is have both sides had the opportunity to speak? And that takes a certain amount of discernment, I mean, to even ask that as we see something that is as inflammatory as what this incident that you described earlier seemingly was. Yes, I think that's probably one of the biggest matters that we have to come to terms with is that I'm not sure we have adequately asked the question, is this something on which I need to speak? I think often of two examples in the life and ministry of the Lord Jesus, where in one case, a brother comes to him and he says, teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me. And Jesus says, who made me an arbiter and a judge over you? So here's a case where Jesus doesn't engage this man's seeming injustice issue. And it may be because Christ knows, well, that's a matter of the courts, and I'm not here to legislate in that way. But then Jesus goes on and he says to everyone around in that context, beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of things that he has. So instead of engaging this issue that's brought to him, he speaks to a greater matter for the heart of that man and those that are listening. The other issue that's brought to Jesus, and this may be a little bit more appropriate to the media situation. A report comes to Jesus from several people in Luke 13 that Pilate has been mingling the blood of some of the Galileans with pig's blood. He's really doing a defiling act according to God's law, and a very wicked act, and they're coming to Jesus wanting him to pick up this story, as it were, and respond to it, and Jesus instead relates to the Tower of Siloam that fell on the 18th, and then he turns and he says that everyone will likewise perish unless they repent. So he doesn't enter into the sort of contemporaneous conversation, the news media of his day, as it were, but he's always going to the spiritual issues. And I think there's a big lesson there for us. I think also we don't need to speak to every issue. There are so many things that are over my pay grade. David said, I don't concern myself with matters too great for me. There's just a whole lot that I don't need to weigh in on because it doesn't directly apply to me. I'm not a witness. It doesn't impact my life. I don't lend anything to the discussion. I don't have enough facts. And I think those are things that we really have to think about as well. And in terms of the issue of have both sides had an opportunity to speak, I don't know where it is in the Proverbs, but there's something that one person's view seems correct until you hear the other side of the matter. And in that respect, it wasn't until we heard from the student, Nick Sandman, who was able to respond, and then all of a sudden you had a completely different story. That's correct. You know, I like to put it this way. You would not want to be falsely accused of something. You would not want an accusation to circulate about you and for people to widely accept that without being given the opportunity to weigh in on that, to bear witness to what you believe to be true about yourself in whatever situation that is. And so why would we not demand that of others. Why would we not demand that same principle of everyone around us? Our court systems are supposed to be built on, and are built on, the principle of innocent until proven guilty. And so even in discussions that are not judicial, every matter is going to have different opinions. You know, I used to joke about this, that in marriage counseling, there's an old saying, there's always three sides. There's his side, there's her side and there's the truth. And so if a man came to me and he was having marital issues, and said, my wife's like this, and she does this, and she does this, and I blindly side with him, that's foolish. And if she came and she said, well, this is true and this isn't true, and I just blindly side with her, that would be foolish. And so I think that we need to be very judicious and careful in wanting to allow all the facts of whatever pertinent issues might come out to come out. Darrell Bock Jumping ahead to the end of your article, Let's Make Wisdom Great Again, and then I want to back up and touch on a couple of other points, but you said it does directly go to Jesus' words, famous saying, and a lot of people know it and may not even know who said it, but, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Jonathan That's right. Yeah, and that's what I was trying to intimate, that why would we do to others what we would never want them to do to us? And you know, as simple as the golden rule is, and we talk about it, I really believe that we don't put it into practice in any way whatsoever as we ought, which is why we need a Savior, which is why we need to go back to Him when we failed, which is why we need to confess our sins, which is why we need to grow in union with Christ in that. And a couple other points that you make in terms of applying wisdom, biblical wisdom, principles to social media news that we may read, or whether or not to respond, and have I been motivated by a desire to glorify God in my response, and then am I truly seeking to better society by responding? Yes. You know, I've often thought about that. We rush to jump on the bandwagon of collective opinions and draw hasty judgments, and I don't think that we often think about, how are my actions benefiting those around me? So if I respond in silence, and there's been a lot of discussions in recent years about injustice, and people say, well, silence is complicity, and if you're silent on this, then you're complicit. Not necessarily. You may actually be may actually be encouraging wisdom. The Proverbs say that the wise man is slow to speak. James says that as well, that he who has understanding is slow to articulate his opinion. And also how we speak. So I'm not exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit. Is there love, is there joy, is there peace, gentleness, faithfulness, kindness, self-control in how I'm speaking and how I'm responding to things? Because that really becomes an example to others around us. And in that sense, we are, and I believe we are, called by God to live out a Christian life in order to be a blessing to others and to build them up, and we do that with how we respond, especially publicly. And in terms of the response or in terms of the consequences of our responses or any responses to what we see on social media or just in the news media in general, there are consequences. And you raise this issue. You don't go into a lot of detail, but for a society or a culture that actually feeds on scandal and division and these kind of rush to judgment stories, it has a trend line. It's going somewhere. yeah i think it would be the brooks opinion piece maybe it was in the washington post where he said i i find it very hard to believe that uh... paraphrasing horribly could not looking at this quoted in that article but uh... because i find it hard to believe that society in which he and you know uh... uh... this this acerbic quick harsh uh... and i i think you've been committing judgmental culture or official media is occurring is correct it's going to last very long there who would want to be in that because the damage is going to be so great and at least people to a look he said and that that is true it it fuels the joylessness and mean spiritedness and uh... an animosity and for that it's detrimental to society about the other thing i think i mentioned in the post is that Jesus also says for every idle word that men speak, we will give an account in the Day of Judgment. And so there are consequences for our words, not just in the here and now, but obviously on the Day of Judgment. Well, Pastor Nick Bancik, my guest today on His People, and he's written, Let's Make Wisdom Great Again. It's about using social media in a God-glorifying way. He wrote it for the Reformation 21 blog. And as we come to nearing the conclusion of our discussion today, Pastor Bancik, certainly social media, particularly, has gained the reputation for frequently being the purveyor of so-called fake news and spreading gossip and rumors. How would you suggest a believer of any age decide what social media if any, to pay attention to, or to use. Actually, I'm not convinced that everyone should be on social media. I do think that there's a place for it. I think that it's obviously a very influential media source, in that sense, for the propagation of all kinds of information, not the least of which, important, is biblical truth. And I try to follow as many thoughtful Christian theologians and pastors, and then men and women who maybe lay ministry, organizational ministry employees or directors, and so I limit who I follow, because if you follow too many people, then you have a clutter of what you're seeing and reading, and so if you can sort of filtrate everything into trustworthy, and that takes a lot of discernment, there's no sort of manual for that, then I personally try to use it in filling my social media feeds with things that I know will be of interest, that will help me stay informed, because it is important to be informed. but also people that are modeling, as I said earlier, you know, edifying, God-honoring, thoughtful things. To what extent, I suppose I should ask you personally, do you or do you recommend people use the mainstream news media, whether it's on the left or on the right, but to try to perhaps go across the spectrum and try to gather at least different perspectives from credible news sources to check our social media news feeds? Very important, and also a very hard subject. I try to do what you just said. i try not to limit myself to one uh... particular polarized ideological news source so i don't just read foxnews, i don't just read cnn, i don't just read the new york times or the washington post or the bbc or uh... msnbc or any of these other uh... media sources and it's inevitable i mean we can't go into any restaurant without seeing news on and you have one very biased news channel streaming in one restaurant or at one gym, and then you have another one in a different part of the country or a different side of town. And so I do think it's wise when there's a story that is of interest, important, and I think it's important for Christians to know what's going on, but to try to patiently discern things. And, you know, I don't think we should spend the majority of our time on news websites or watching streaming 24-hour news, because I think oftentimes, too, we're taking in needless information, and we really need to read our Bibles, and we need to read good theological works, and we need to be filling our minds with other literature and other things. So I think it needs to be done, again, judiciously. It needs to be done in a limited amount. I spend maybe 20 minutes a day looking at different news sources, so not a great deal of time. You've been listening to His People on Pilgrim Radio. Many thanks to our guest, Presbyterian pastor Nick Batzik. His piece, Let's Make Wisdom Great Again, can be found at Reformation21.org.