Welcome to the Contending for the Word podcast. A podcast devoted to helping inform, educate, equip, and warn people about false teachers, false movements, and unbiblical philosophies. Now join our host for today's episode and enjoy. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Contending for the Word podcast. My name is Dave and I'm the host for the show. And with us today is our friend and co-host, Michelle Leslie. Michelle, welcome back to Contending for the Word today. Thank you so much, Dave. It's great to be here. Yeah, it's great to have you. Well, everybody, today we're going to talk about another false teacher and everybody probably knows who she is. Her name is Priscilla Schreier. She has an incredible amount of influence. She's the founder of this ministry called Going Beyond. With Priscilla Schreier, she's a well-known author, speaker, etc., and she has – her ministry has 126,000 followers. She has 1.9 million followers on Instagram. Um, Instagram, um, she has 431,000 followers on her personal ex. Her Facebook page has 1.3 million. Her YouTube has 909,000 subs. So, um, you know, she's a well-known author, speaker, conference speaker. Uh, she, uh, also preaches to men and, uh, lots of other things that we're going to talk about today. So, uh, that's just a kind of a very quick. brief summary of who Priscilla Schreier is and what she's all about. Do you have any thoughts about that, Michelle? The only thing I would add is that she has been a major figure for Lifeway in their women's Bible study department. She's been sort of in ministry for the past about 30 years-ish, and she has just been building an audience ever since then. And sort of when Beth Moore was at her her peak at Lifeway and in the Southern Baptist Convention, Priscilla Schreier was sort of the number two person right there behind her. So she's been a very influential figure, especially in women's ministry and women's Bible study. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, we're doing things a little bit differently here on the show. We're trying to break up each segment so that things are a little more focused for those who listen and watch. So, our first segment, we're gonna talk about Priscilla teaching to mixed gatherings, as in she's preaching where men are present. So, Can you tell us, Michelle, about how prevalent Priscilla Schreier's teaching of mixed gathering of men and women is? Yeah, I would just say it's not uncommon, or maybe that it's common. It's not something she seems to give a second thought to. It's just part of what she does is preaching to men. She has preached the Sunday morning sermon at numerous churches, including at churches with women pastors and co-pastors. We put that in quotes, women pastors and co-pastors, because there's no such thing as a woman pastor. She's preached at Hillsong. She has preached, we may have talked about this last time I was on, when we talked about passion, she's preached at Passion. Of course, that's a co-ed conference and various, numerous other venues where the audience is co-ed. So that's not an uncommon thing. When she started out about 30 years ago, As I said, preaching to men was more taboo, especially with LifeWay and the Southern Baptist Convention, it just wasn't as out there as it is now. And LifeWay at the time was really, that was the Mecca that you went to, you know, if you wanted to be published and become famous in Christian circles, if you wanted to be on the Christian Women Conference speaking circuit, you know, that's where you went. So I'm sure she didn't want to rock the boat at Lifeway at that time, as I say, about 30 years ago by preaching to men, but as unfortunately, it has become more and more acceptable. now it's just par for the course for her. But speaking to women is still her bread and butter, and that's quite literally her bread and butter. I noticed that her page at All American Speakers, which is her booking agency, says that as of, at least as of May of 2024, that her speaking fee is anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000. So, um, she's, she's doing okay, but she's, you know, she's preaching to men as well. So. Yeah. Yeah. She's doing, she's doing just fine. Let's take a quick look at this example that I found. You mentioned some as well, but I know people like to see and hear these examples. So I have one from life church under Craig Groschel. Did I get that name? Right. I've always heard it pronounced Groeschel. Groeschel. OK, thank you. I do get you get names wrong, so I want to make sure I get that right. So let's take a look at that now. Why would we surrender our lives to somebody who's just a good teacher? Why would we surrender to somebody unless we actually believe that he is who he said he is, that he actually did redeem us, that he actually did pay a debt that we could not pay on our own, that apart from the gracious gift of salvation, we would be separated from God for eternity and find ourselves in the pit of hell if we really don't believe it. then we won't actually follow Him and surrender all. So He deals with His identity first before the invitation. Our willingness to surrender fully and completely to Him demands that we ask ourselves the question, who do we say Jesus is? Do you have any thoughts about that, Michelle, before I explain why women shouldn't be preaching? Oh, I have many, many thoughts about that. First of all, let me just say, I don't like being yelled at. You know, when I go to hear somebody speak, she just is yelling at everybody. And I'm sure it was just a very intense moment or whatever. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, even false teachers when I can, but I just don't like being yelled at. But aside from that, What she's saying in this 45-second clip actually is fairly biblical, and that's to be expected because false teachers don't just walk up to us and spew sin and recognizable false doctrine at us 24-7. the reason they're able to be as convincing as they are, the reason they're able to be as deceptive as they are, is because they mix in biblical truth with error, and that makes it much harder to discern the true from the false, especially if you're not very discerning, if you're a new Christian, or if you don't know your Bible very well. So it's really important to know your Bible well. But I just want to say that False teachers, they're not false 100% of the time, and that's how they're able to be so deceptive. But the other thing that strikes me about listening to this clip is that she's being very hypocritical here. She needs to get the log out of her own eye. She's not actually following him. She's rebelling against him, regardless of what she claims. She's not, like she says, fully and completely surrendered to him, because if she were, she would not be preaching to men, she would not be teaching false doctrine, and she would not be associating herself and yoking in ministry with other false teachers. She's living a life of disobedience to God, so there's no way she can be, as she says, totally and completely surrendered to him. And I just had a couple of scriptures that came to mind when I was listening to this initially that I wanted to share. Mark 7, 6 through 7, Jesus addresses this kind of situation right here. Jesus is speaking to, I believe, the Pharisees here. It says, and he said to them, well, did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites? As it is written, this people honors me with their lips. But their heart is far from me. In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." And then 1 John 2, 3 through 6, John blesses heart. He is so blunt, and I love that about him. Here's what he says. He says, and by this we know that we have come to know him. if we keep his commandments. Whoever says, I know him, but does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him. Whoever says he abides in him, ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. And how did Jesus walk? Jesus walked according to scripture, obeying it perfectly. So those are, you know, I know those are some really poignant scriptures right there, and a lot of people may not like to look at Priscilla. She's such a nice person, really, and she's very dynamic and everything, and they may not want to look at her in light of those scriptures. But we have to put the scriptures first and not the teacher first. So it's important that we always compare every teacher's teaching to scripture. And unfortunately, she falls way short of these two and many more. Yeah, that's that's really, really well said. I really appreciate that. And, you know, we should give charity and we should pray, you know, to and I know you would agree with me. We should be praying. You know, it's one thing just to be speaking out against them. But I want you to know that I pray for these people. And I know Michelle does, that they would be saved, that their followers would their influence would be lessened. And, you know, that people would come out of their ministry. You know, that's why we're doing this. It's not personal. As I've said many times on the show, this is not personal. This is because, you know, they do say some things that are good. Priscilla is even a good speaker. She reminds me of Lisa Pervere even in that way. She might even be a better speaker than Lisa Bevere. I would think she is in what I've listened to. But still, as we're about to see – and I'm just going to give a brief rundown on this, Michelle, so this is not going to – we've actually done another episode on this previously where we've talked about the dangers of women being pastors. You know, in Genesis 1 and 2, we see, you know, God made man first to lead in the home and then Eve to be his helpmate. So we need to say, we have to be clear about this today, right? God created Adam to be a man and Eve to be a woman. No shock there, if you just read Genesis 1 and 2. So God assigned our gender at birth. Now in 1 Timothy 2.12, Paul builds on Genesis 1 and 2, he shows how man is to lead in the home and now the church by stating that a woman is not to teach or exercise authority over man, but to quiet in the gathered church. Now, we know following that passage in 1 Timothy 3, 1-7 and Titus 1-5, it makes it clear that only a biblically qualified man can preach and be an elder. The only ability there is obviously teaching. The rest are character qualities. describe and define who the man is. So the man is supposed to be leading in the home, which is the Puritans and the Reformers called that, talked about that as a mini church. And then, so only men can lead in the home and in the church. The point here is God assigned not only our gender at birth, as I mentioned earlier, but as a result gave us a function and a role. So a man is to act like a man and a woman, is to act as a woman as defined by the Word of God. Now you might be hearing that you think, well, what could I do as a woman, right? Or even as a man, if you're not biblically qualified yet. Titus 2 gives us what this looks like in the local church. You know, Titus 2 teaches that older men are to teach younger men, older women are to teach younger women. This helps us to see what every Christian, whether they're a man or a woman, can do in the local church if they're not an elder or in some sort of pastoral ministry. Michelle, what are your thoughts? I completely agree with you. And I would also add just that because women have a different role does not mean that it's a lesser or inferior role. Yes, male headship and the patriarchal order That is created by God, and that is a good thing, and we should embrace that and love that because that is what God decided what was best for us. But just because women have a different role than men do, and that we are to be submissive to our husbands, and that we are not to have the role of pastor, preaching to men, teaching men, exercising authority over men in the gathering of the church, does not mean that we do not have a vital role in both the family and the church. If women were not doing what they're supposed to do in their marriages and in their churches, marriages and churches would fall apart because it depends on both men and women doing what God has designed us to do in those institutions that He has created in order for them to flourish and be vibrant and carry out the mission that God has assigned to both of those institutions. So everything you said was just spot on. I totally agree with it. One little quibble I have, God didn't assign our gender or our sex at birth. He assigned it at conception. I have a mom who's a scientist, so just wanted to be perfectly accurate on that. Hey, you know what? I'll say I failed. I did not do well in biology or anything. So I'll accept that criticism. No criticism. No criticism. It's always good to be precise. It's always good to be precise for the sake of the audience. So I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So our second part of this – second of this episode, we're going to talk about how Priscilla partnered with false teachers. So Michelle, you've written quite a bit on this. You've done a lot of research on this. So can you tell us about how she's partnered with false teachers and who? Sure. I mean, there are a lot of ways to partner with false teachers. I mean, speaking at conferences with them, preaching at their churches, writing endorsements for their books, having them write endorsements for your books and materials and things like that, appearing on their TV shows or their podcasts. being friends with them. And Priscilla Schreier does all of these things with other false teachers. She's a false teacher herself. And so people who are hanging around with her and doing all these things with her, they're yoking with a false teacher, but she's also a false teacher and she yokes with other false teachers. So there are a variety of ways in which she does that, that we've just talked about here. I'm sure there are some false teachers she has not yoked with because there's so many of them out there. I don't know that she's ever done anything like with Kenneth Copeland or some of the more wacky end of the New Apostolic Reformation spectrum there, but she has done things with Joyce Meyer, Christine Kane, Joel and Victoria Osteen, Beth Moore, T.D. Jakes, Sarah Jakes Roberts, who's his daughter, Hillsong, Brian and Bobby Houston, who headed up Hillsong for the longest time, Todd White. Now, he is in the NAR. She did a conference where he was also speaking. And he's he's the guy with the long dreadlocks who's famous for supposedly lengthening people's legs. So she has sort of ventured into that just a tad. But Lisa Harper, Terri Savelle Foy, she's another New Apostolic Reformation kind of person. Ann Voskamp, Jen Hatmaker, who embraces homosexuality or is affirming of homosexuality. Jenny Allen, who's the head of If Gathering and is a false teacher in her own right. So there's just no, there's really, it seems, no limit to the number of false teachers or the variety of false teachers that she will yoke and ministry with and associate with, be friends with, and things of this nature. Yeah, that's really good. You mentioned Christine Kane and Beth Moore earlier in this interview that Priscilla did at the Christian Post on November 29th. She was asked, who would you say are some of the most vital, influential, or unique voices right now in Christianity or in America? Her response was, Christine Kane is at the top of this list. Well, we've talked previously about Christine Kane on The Passion, and she's another one that teaches very questionable, heretical doctrine, even though we said she does good work, like she's against human sex trafficking and those kind of things, which Priscilla notes in this. She mentions also Beth Moore. is a, she says in this interview, is a fantastic communicator of God's word. And she says, I have the utmost respect for her. She's a friend and a mentor, a woman of integrity. I have rarely heard someone teach the scriptures the way Beth Moore can, she says. So, yeah, that's pretty deeply concerning just to what you said and then what And these are her own words in this interview, by the way, just to be clear, at the Christian Post November 29th. So Michelle, what do you think about that? Well, I mean, it's like I said, to be expected, she's she's a false teacher. So she's going to look up to other false teachers like Beth Moore and Christine Kane. And, you know, the old saying birds of a feather flock together. And down here, we say if you lie down with the dogs, you get up with the fleas. You know, it's they're they're all basically In the same pattern, people ask me, what about this teacher? What about this teacher? What about this teacher? And I feel like a broken record because they are all doing basically the same thing. The women are all preaching to men or the men false teachers are allowing or inviting women to preach or they're having women be pastors at their churches and things of this nature. But the women are preaching to men. They're yoking with false teachers and they're teaching false doctrine. And some of them also are adding in, you know, like the the option of also being woke or also being progressive or, you know, affirming of homosexuality and things of this nature. So that's that's those are the major problems with Christine Kane and Beth Moore as well Christine Kane comes out of Hillsong originally so that's that's her wheelhouse there. Beth Moore, unfortunately, has been on a down downhill trajectory for about. Oh, over 40 years now of just getting further and further away from scripture and more and more accepting of sin and things like that. So, yeah, they're just all bad news and basically in the same way. Yeah, that's really good. Really good. So I'm only gonna highlight here one or two verses about why we can't partner with false teachers. I mention that because there's a whole lot of scripture that we could, you know, camp on. On there, 2 John 10, it says, if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting. Whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. So, in the context of 2 John, the apostle is almost certainly addressing Gnostic teachers. They have superior knowledge. That's the idea of Gnosticism. They do not confess the coming of Jesus in the flesh, according to 2 John 7. Gnosticism may not be a prominent threat in your current context, but the spirit of the deceiver, Satan, lies on every teacher who lies about God by preaching a different Jesus, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. So false gospels that preach quote-unquote fake Jesus, not the real Jesus from the Bible. come in many different forms. So in light of these realities, the apostle John warns the members of his audience to guard their souls in 2 John 8, which says, watch yourselves so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. But he doesn't stop there. In the passage I just read from 2 John, 2 John 10, not to receive any of these false teachers, nor even to greet them, for to do so would incur the blood guilt of their wicked ways. Now he says, if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, Whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. So what John is warning about here is any kind of action that will lead the watching world to believe that we, as ambassadors of Christ and torchbearers of the true gospel, are on the same team as the deceivers. We must not allow any opportunity for the church or the world to be confused about the true biblical gospel that is given in the word of God. So if you publicly receive a false teacher, you may give watching eyes the false impression that the deceiver is not that dangerous after all. So what that means very practically is for those who are ministry is that they should not in any way under any circumstance lock arms with heretical teachers, pastors, authors, professors, podcasters, anyone in any capacity that brings you a different Jesus. And there isn't a different Jesus to be clear other than the one that is revealed in the word. So what that includes is also conferences, prayer breakfast, Bible studies, pastor coalitions, conferences, parent church ministries, pulpit swaps or supply, book recommendations, article sharing, website promoting, and you can just go on and on with that. But Wisdom is going to help us dictate when to draw the line here, but the principle we ought to keep in mind is this. We must not align ourselves with false teachers and or apostate churches or any of their ministries in any way, shape, or form that will confuse people about the true gospel of Jesus as defined in the Word of God. The strict adherence to this principle is going to bring us into very, very sharp conflict with those who don't understand what the Apostle John is saying in 2 John 2 10. We're going to be called unloving. Hey, we're going to be called judgmental. We're going to be charged with not upholding the unity of the church. We won't be able to speak at certain conferences, or in my case, be invited to any conferences, or partner with certain parish church organizations. Well, whatever. Let it be so, brothers and sisters in Christ. We must walk in the way of love. We must protect the flock. We must confess the true biblical Christ as revealed in the Word. We must not partake in wickedness. We must abide in the truth of our Master as defined by the Word of God. Michelle, I know you have a lot of thoughts about this, but go ahead. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is just to remember when you're not invited to speak at those conferences, or you're not invited to participate in certain things, or if you're in your church and people start rolling their eyes at you, oh, here comes Michelle. It's another false teacher she's going to warn us about. And we can't have any fun doing all these Bible studies that we want to do because Michelle's always coming in here and saying, oh, these are false teachers, which I don't. But anyway, you need to keep in mind, you're not the one causing division. Romans 16, 17 through 18, Jude, many places in the Bible make it very clear that if a false teacher is being brought in and someone is standing on God's word and opposing that false teacher, The person who is standing on God's word and opposing that teacher is not the one creating the division. The person bringing in the false teacher is. The false teacher himself or herself is. The people who are following the false teachers, they're the ones bringing in division. So be encouraged, Dave. That's what you're doing, and there's a reward for that. you know, that Christ says that if you are persecuted for standing up for Him, for His name, for being biblical, that there is a reward and a blessing for that. And we will see that one day. And it's also a blessing and a joy to know that you're following Christ, no matter how difficult it is. So that is, you know, that's an encouragement to remember. But also, this passage, 2 John 10, I usually use 9 through 11 because it's even further exposes what we're to be doing and explains how dangerous it is to bring in false teachers. But that verse 10 right there is so true that we are not to to give false teachers any greeting. And it's interesting that it says, don't receive him into your home. Well, what was going on at this time? You remember when when Jesus sent out the disciples two by two and he said, go don't take a I can't remember exactly what he said at the moment, but don't take a sword and don't take a bag and don't take money or whatever. And so at the time, that's what was going on. People were going out and these people were traveling around and going to various places and teaching, not the disciples exactly like that necessarily, but they were used to having traveling teachers come through and they, you know, there wasn't a holiday in, so they were, they needed a place to stay. And so he's telling the Christians at that time, don't don't receive these false teachers into your home because that looks like you're giving them your endorsement. But also at the same time, the church was meeting in people's homes as well a lot of the time. And so there's an application for the church there as well. Don't bring these people into your church because it looks like you're harboring a false teacher and you agree with the things that this false teacher is saying. So it's very very important that we draw that line of separation between ourselves and false teachers, and when a false teacher like Priscilla Schreier, not only greets or accepts or embraces other false teachers. She's platforming them and she's supporting them. She's pointing people to them and she's associating them with them as well. And so people who follow her are being exposed to all these other false teachers that she associates with. Some of them who, you know, False doctrine is false doctrine, and it's all bad, but some of them are much more obvious, we'll say, false teachers than she is, and their false doctrine is much more obvious than hers. And so, yeah, it's so important that we make sure that we not only separate ourselves from false teachers, but also that we warn others against these false teachers because we love our brothers and sisters in Christ. We don't want them to be led astray. And even if they actually are saved, you know, scripture is pretty clear that one of the marks of a genuinely regenerated Christian in John 10 is that we will not follow the voice of a stranger. But even Christians, you know, stray a few steps away from time to time. And when you do that, that can cripple your spiritual life. You start believing things like God's supposed to be speaking to you. And if he's not, then, well, maybe you're in sin. Maybe you're not really a Christian. Maybe you don't have enough faith and things like this, when this is not what the Bible teaches. And so you're being lied to, and it's crippling your spiritual life, even though you actually are saved. So that's why it's so important. We don't want to see that happen to our brothers and sisters. because we love them, and we don't want to see that happen to our churches because we love our churches. But above all, we don't want to see false teachers flourish and succeed because we love Christ, and it is blasphemous to him. False teaching is a slap in his face. It is slander of him, and we love Christ, and we don't want to see that happen. Amen. Very well said. Very well said. So for our third segment, we're going to talk about contemplative prayer and I use air quotes here, listening to God's voice. So one of the best examples, actually, I think I took this phraseology from your website, from an article that you have. So one of the best examples that best showcases Priscilla's penchant for eisegesis and poor hermeneutics can be found in the promotional video for her study One in a Million. So let me play that clip and then Michelle will comment on that clip. I've been in the church as long as I can remember. My earliest memories are of being on a pew sitting amongst godly people who were sitting underneath incredible teaching of God's Word, wonderful praise and worship music. I love church. The problem is often for you, if you're like me, is that we can sit on the pews of our church, but not actually experience what we're learning here. I've read so much about God throughout the scriptures and heard so much about Him being taught to me as I've sat in Bible studies and on the pews of my church. But I wanted to experience this God, this God who had the power to divide the Red Sea in the Old Testament. This God who had the power in the New Testament to raise Lazarus from the dead. This same God was supposed to be speaking to me, teaching to me, making himself relevant to me in my regular life, in the regular rhythms of my everyday living, and it wasn't happening. And John 10.10, he says, listen, I came that you might not just have life, but that you might have it abundantly. And if he came to give abundant life, abundant life is what I'm after. It all began when God directed me to this home Bible study group, a little living room packed with people from different cultures, different backgrounds, different colors, different denominations. And let me tell you something, my little theological box that I didn't even know I had, that little box was rattled. When these believers who knew and had experienced different things about God became part of my life, my eyes were opened to see God in a brand new way. I was anticipating more out of God than I'd ever anticipated before. Because when I walked into that little home, I knew that I was standing underneath an open heaven. I could feel almost the tangible presence of God. I was hearing him with clarity. The scriptures were exploding with revelation. I would see believers pray about a miracle they needed in their life. And then the next week they'd come back and talk about the miracle that God had performed. And then God started performing miracles in my life. I was seeing evidence of Him on a regular basis. And let me tell you, once you start experiencing God, you are ruined for everything else. What we've garnered on the pew, it's supposed to move out onto the pavement. It's supposed to be a part of the regular rhythms of our everyday existence. You know, it's kind of like the children of Israel. There were two million Hebrew people that were enslaved in Egypt. Two million people that got free. Two million people that were offered the opportunity to walk on promised land soil. In other words, to experience what God had offered them. Two million people had the chance. And do you know that of the original two million Jewish people, Only two actually ever made it. Well, Michelle, what do you think of that, sister? Well, let me address that last thing that she said there first. You got this video from my website. It's one that I had to replace the original video with because unfortunately, people are just taking down videos and links and websites and stuff like that willy-nilly all the time. It's so frustrating when you link up to something and then somebody trashes it. But anyway, in the original video that I had up there, She goes on to say, after she says, of the original two million Jewish people, only two actually ever made it. And she goes on to say, that's one in a million. Well, man, if there's only going to be a handful of people experiencing what we've learned on the pew, then I want one of those to be me. And that is so unbiblical. And maybe that's, you know, they got a clue to that, and that's why they cut that part of the video off. The story of Joshua and Caleb being the only ones to enter the promised land has absolutely no connection whatsoever with how many Christians today will be able to achieve intimacy with God. The Bible doesn't say anywhere that just because only two people out of two million entered the promised land that only a handful of people will be able to experience, and we're fixing to talk about that in a second, will be able to experience what we've learned on the pew. So this isn't biblical. But if you go back through this, and especially if you could get a transcript of what she's saying and just read it without all the sweet music in the background and all the lovely pictures and everything, this is something Amy and I talk about on the podcast, on our podcast with regularity, is the sensuality. Not not in the sexual connotation like it's it's given today, but in the classic definition of the word sensuality appealing to the five senses your sense of sight taste smell here hearing and. touch. These things, this is what these people do in it with their ministry materials. You'll always hear the beautiful music in the background. The production quality is very high. You'll see these heartstring tugging images as they're making this video, and all of that is designed to appeal to your senses and override your logic and your reason and your clear thinking that God has given you God's given you a brain he wants you to be objective and use it and, and compare everything to scripture. This whole idea of experience is what she's talking about here. And this is what sensuality leads to. It leads you to rely, or maybe you're vulnerable to sensuality because you rely on your experiences. But it's an endless cycle. One feeds on the other, the sensuality, the relying on experience, and it just goes from there. Relying on your experiences is pretty much the theme of this little video that she's talking about. She talks about in the beginning that she learned all this stuff on the pew. She learned God's word on the pew, but like Sarah Young would say in Jesus Calling, but she yearned for more. You know, it's the same idea. She wanted experiences. And that is not what God teaches us to do. The Word of God is our authority in life, not our experiences, not our feelings, not our personal opinions and preferences. We bow the knee to what God's Word says. We don't be led around by the nose by our experiences and our feelings about those experiences. And so that's where she went wrong. I mean, that was a that must have been a crossroads at her life where where she decided, I want experiences. And so she. she sort of veered off from the truth, I guess, that she was being taught in whatever church she was at, and she started seeking after these experiences. And that's what she talks about here. She talks about meeting believers from different denominations who had experienced different things about God, and they became part of her life. And I suspect these people were not doctrinally sound, They probably were having possibly, you know, supernatural experiences or some sort of experience like that, that that are mystical, maybe that they all thought was God. And that's what she was looking for. And she talks about how she, you know, that's where she started feeling satisfied and where she started feeling like this is, you know, I found it. I finally found what I'm looking for. and that rattled her little theological box. Well, that little theological box that got rattled was probably God's word coming to her heart and her mind, telling her, hey, these experiences that these people are having, they don't match up with scripture, and they're not biblical, so you need to get away from them. So it's just, It's a whole problem in evangelicalism, especially with women, that they're being taught by people like Priscilla Schreier to pursue those cravings of their flesh for experience and mysticism and the supernatural and all the different things of this nature, rather than being students of the Word and being led by the Spirit through the Word as God intended, and having scripture be their authority in life as Christians, again, as God intended, rather than just being led around by the nose by feelings and experiences and cravings of the flesh, really. Yeah, that's really good. So Priscilla Schreier's written a book called Discerning the Voice of God. It's very popular. On pages 45 and 46, she quotes Jan Johnson, a contemporary prayer mystic advocate of guided meditations in the same book there. Schreier also quotes Brother Lawrence Dallas Willard and other contemporaries in the book. Shrier, who is highly influenced by Jan Johnson, who I just mentioned. On her website, Priscilla has an article titled, Whiz Bits, where she shares she spoke with Jan Johnson on the phone and says this of Jan, I'm continually blessed by the word the Lord places on her heart every month through her Whiz Bit articles. And she writes for anyone to subscribe to. So then on Jan's on her whiz bits in July 2010, she quotes Richard Rohr, who is is very, very influential on the Enneagram and this contemplative spirituality. He's contemplative mystic. He says faith does not need to push the river because faith is able to trust that there is a river. It is flowing. We are in it. Now, Ken Silva over at Appraising Ministries writes explaining what Richard Rohr means by this phrase. As far as the river imagery, Rohr is borrowing from the Roman Catholic mystic Meister Eckhart, who was even considered heretical by the apostate Church of Rome, he says. whom he served spreading its non-gospel in the anti-biblical Dominican monastic tradition. Eckhart, like all classic mystics, was a universalist. Are you seeing a theme here, Ken says? The following from the latest book by the emerging church leader Samar Shalmakovic who is also a universalist known for his inter-spiritual work. Halb explains what Eckhart means. Meister Eckhart said that our religions are like houses. Each house has a trapdoor somewhere down in the basement, and if we go deep enough, we will fall through the trapdoor into a river that flows beneath all of us. Beautiful, I thought, he writes. Translation, Silva says, Eckhart is talking about what's commonly called a spark of the divine. Whenever you hear that, that's what they're talking about when they talk about contemplative spirituality, which supposedly within each house, meaning all of mankind and the flowing river, is God's. So Eckhart also indicates and strongly contradicts God's word in Scripture with the denial of the doctrine of regeneration when he says, every creature is full of God and a book about God. Now you see the danger of Schreier promoting the teaching of Jan Johnson and in turn Richard Rohr and other contemporary mystics. Now, Amy Spreeman, in her white paper on contemplative prayer at Berean Research, she outlines what biblical prayer is. Biblical prayer prays according to the Word of God. Secondly, biblical prayer prays with both spirit and mind, not one or the other. Third, biblical prayer talks to God the Father through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. And lastly, she notes that biblical prayer understands the way God has revealed in his word is sufficient, so new revelation is unnecessary. There's lots of episodes that I've done with Marsha on this podcast talking about Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, so I would commend you if you're interested in learning more about Dallas Willard and Richard Foster and learning more about that. I would say listen or watch those, and it's something that Marsha and I are going to keep talking about. Michelle, do you have any thoughts on that? I would just say I would kind of zoom out and look at, you know, the 10,000 foot view for Priscilla Schreier in particular. You know, she went to, she's gone to NAR teachers, she's gone, now she's going to mystical teachers and things of this nature. it's because none of this satisfies none of this is what she's looking for and the same is true for for us as well you know those of us who are just i guess just pew sitters i guess you could say you you can look at all the different manifestations of satan's religion which is just basically anti-god i mean you could they're all the same source it's doctrines of demons And you can try all of them, and none of them will satisfy you. Only the Christ of the Bible, as he is defined and presented and explained and shown in scripture. He is the only one who will satisfy you with what you're looking for. That's easy to see from Priscilla going to all these different false teachers and searching for what can only be found in Christ. So for our last segment today, segment four, we're going to talk about Priscilla Schreier's modalism. I do want to – I know you have some thoughts on this, but I do want to just mention this at the outset of this before I play this clip. I actually have looked. I scoured the internet, and I'm pretty good at Google. So I've even worked as a professional researcher at one point. And I could find nothing else other than what Doreen gave me permission to share her of this clip. So I could not find any other evidence of her actively teaching modalism. So I want to say that at the outset. And I know Michelle has some thoughts about that, and I think it's important to say that because we don't know if there's a continual pattern of this. I'm going to explain briefly modalism here after we play the clip and Michelle shares her thoughts, but it's important to recognize and I think highlight those points where If we if we can't find more on this, then it might not mean that she is actively teaching it, but it also might mean that she is and we aren't aware of it. So if you're aware of it and you listen or watch, you know, please let Michelle and I know it's something that. Even more than the other things that we've mentioned, which are deeply troubling, this is absolutely 100 percent heretical. And so we would we would just say, please let us know. Before I play that clip, do you do you want to say anything? No, we can talk about it after the clip. That'd be fun. Okay, I just want to make sure. Doreen Virtue, our friend and sister in Christ, she gave me permission to use this clip from her video. The video is called Modalism Heresy Explained where she and Chris Roseborough discuss Priscilla Shrier's modalism. And I was recently doing a video about some female, they call themselves pastors and prophets. Of course, biblically they're not. But while going through a video of Priscilla Shire, I found this clip and I think she's teaching modalism. So I wanted to play this and get your take on it, please. And the New Testament opens. And God the Father makes a move the likes of which the enemy still to this day has never had a response. You got it. He puts on flesh and basically says, you know what? I'm going to come down here and take care of this myself. and he lives a perfect life. So if you have the father being incarnate, then we got a big problem. And it was legitimately a huge problem. This is a part of the modalistic heresy. And it's been soundly condemned throughout the history of the Christian church. And this is the aspect of modalism called patrapassionism. And so patre meaning father, passion talking about the death. If you believe that the father was incarnate in Christ, then God the father is the one who died for your sins, not God the son. And so you're confusing the persons here. in such a way that, again, this is heresy. Now, I don't know if Priscilla Schreier says that she's a Trinitarian or not, but I can definitely tell you that that was more than a gaffe. That was a full-on theological error. And as Christians, we're not permitted to speak with that level of error. We have to speak the truth about who God is. She shouldn't be preaching in the first place, but So one thing here he said that stood out to me, he says that this is air. Well, air, he is right that it's air. Chris is right that it's air. But it's also heresy, because air is anything outside the Bible, and heresy is anything outside of what Scripture says and what the church would say. And I'm sure Chris would 100% agree with us on that. I thought for the sake of the audience that it's important to note that so that, you know, we're clear about that. Yes, very important. And it's important to study those things so you know the difference and you have all your categories straight and everything too. So, glad you brought that up because it's important for the listeners to know. I would just agree with everything that Chris said there except one tiny little thing. I think maybe this was a gaffe, but technically what she said, he's right, what she said was patripassionism and was heresy. I'm just not sure she was consciously and overtly meaning to say what she said, especially since you haven't found any other evidence of that. I've never heard of her teaching anything like that. She's got a Trinitarian statement on her website. Now, we know that people veer off of their what they say on their websites all the time. But she does say, we believe that the Godhead exists eternally in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that these three are one God. That is a perfectly biblical Trinitarian statement that she has on her Statement of Faith page on her website. So another thing, if she had all these years that she's been with Lifeway, especially back in the beginning, if she had been teaching modalism all these years, they would have dropped her like a hot potato, at least in the beginning. Now, the SBC and Lifeway have gone so far afield. It's really sad. As a Southern Baptist, it just breaks my heart to see where the SBC is at right now. But at least back then, if she had been teaching modalism overtly and expanding on what she said here and really consciously, there's no doubt in your mind that this is what she's teaching, she would not have made it at Lifeway. So I think there are a number of circumstantial things to look at to support the idea that I think she maybe just spoke. I feel comfortable extending the grace to her of saying that she misspoke in this instance. Now, all of that being said, she does have some level of a relationship with T.D. Jakes, and he is a modalist. So it's possible, you know, that something that he said popped into her head at the moment that she was speaking and she just put things into his words or something like that. This is what happens when you hang around with heretics and false teachers. They influence you and what they say can start getting into your head. So it's really important, like we were saying earlier, to draw that line of separation and stay away. Romans 16-17 says to avoid false teachers. Stay away from them completely. Don't think you can chew up the meat and spit out the bones, because if you're sitting under false teachers, you don't know the difference between meat and bones. But that's also not the way scripture instructs us to handle false teachers. It just says stay away altogether. So yeah, I think right here, this is possibly just her misspeaking. But who knows? Teachers like this, they tend to be on a downhill trajectory of getting more and more unbiblical. And there's no telling where she might go from where she is right now. So it would be something to watch for. But I think just in this particular instance, I think she just possibly misspoke or didn't word things very well. Yeah, I think it is good to always give charity, like you're saying, where charity is required and where it's needed. We as Christians should give charity, even to somebody that has questionable theology. We're not saying that you should listen to or approve of what she said in any way, shape, or form, but it's important to give charity because, I mean, if you guys were to listen to the blooper reel, of when I record and all those things, um, you'd probably laugh at me and not listen to me at all. So, but because I make mistakes and so mistakes can happen, especially, um, when you're up there and, and I've done pulpit supply for years. And so you can make mistakes on the thing. What usually I'll say, oops, um, I made a little mistake there and then I'll correct myself and let's laugh at it. They teach you in preaching class not to laugh at yourself or whatever. I think it's just self-deprecating and kind of humble in a way, because you're not pointing to yourself. You're like, I made a mistake, and let's fix that. But I don't make it my regular practice when I'm preaching to make mistakes like that. But this charity thing is really, really important. I think it's important also for people just to understand what modalism is in case you don't know. This is a heresy. It was condemned by Tertullian, the church father, Athanasius. They can – the church councils denied modalism as heretical. because it denied the distinction of persons in the Godhead, so the Council of Nicaea, 325 AD. Later, the Council of Constantinople in 381, they affirmed the doctrine of the Trinity, clarifying that God is one in essence and exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So modalism, it rejects this distinction and was officially rejected by the church as incompatible with biblical teaching. So, instead, scripture presents the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct persons who interact with one another. For example, at Jesus' baptism in Matthew 3, 16-17, the Father speaks, the Son is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends like a dove. Second, Jesus prays to the Father in John 17, showing a clear distinction between the two persons. Third, the Great Commission, Matthew 28-19, commands baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, implying their equal authority and distinction. You mentioned T.D. Jakes. T.D. Jakes is a oneness Pentecostal, and this is a heretical movement, meaning it's outside. It's not only air. It's outside of what scripture says. It's outside what the church is taught. So it's outside of orthodox biblical Christianity because of its denial of the Trinity and its modalist understanding of God. So, modalism is a heretical view that denies the distinct persons of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by claiming that God is one person who manifests in different modes according to that view. This view was condemned, as I mentioned, by the early church as it contradicts the biblical teaching of the Trinity, the incarnation of Christ, which is what she's talking about, and the personal relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So modalism, it reappears in modern times, particularly, as I mentioned, within Oneness Pentecostalism, but it remains outside the bounds of historic Christian orthodoxy, which affirms one God and three persons co-equal, co-eternal, sharing the same divine essence. So, Michelle, do you have any thoughts on that or any final thoughts about what we've talked about today? Stay away from modalists, that's for sure. I mean, listeners who are like me and are a little slow to listen sometimes or don't catch everything that goes by may not have caught you saying this, but I just want to emphasize again, if you believe in modalism, you know, it's, first of all, let me back up a little bit. Nobody understands the Trinity perfectly. There's not a person on earth who ever has or ever will completely wrap their mind around exactly what the Trinity is and how it works and all of that. But we do our best to have a biblical understanding and uphold a biblical understanding of the Trinity. But that's not what this is. And sometimes people make mistakes. And when you're a brand new Christian, you really don't understand the Trinity. So you have to learn about things like that. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about people who have been instructed on what the biblical view of the Trinity is and have rejected it in favor of heresy. And so it's really important to understand that because when you embrace heresy, you are not a Christian. And that means that you are on your way to spending an eternity in hell. So it's a very serious thing. A lot of people might hear us talking about, you know, modalism and all that and think, why is this such a big deal? That's no big deal. You know, I, yeah, it's God in three persons or whatever. And I don't need to worry about all that. Yes, you do. Because if you believe the wrong thing, you're not a Christian and your eternity is at stake. So it's very serious. And, you know, you might even want to go back and listen again to what Dave was explaining about modalism and why it's so dangerous and why you need to have a correct view of the Trinity. But just in closing, overall, I would say, stay away from teachers like Priscilla. She's not going to do you any favors. She may stroke your flesh and make you feel good for the time that you're listening to her. But just like I said earlier, If you're not putting your faith and trust, your whole life into the Christ of the Bible, what the Bible says about Him, what the Bible says about you and how you're to live as a Christian, you are not going to be satisfied. And in many cases, you're not going to be saved because you're being taught a false gospel if you're following people like this. So just do what the Bible says and stay away from people like this. Get involved and get joined to a doctrinally sound local church. Sit under good preaching and teaching. Study your Bible. Pray and ask God for wisdom and discernment. Trust Him. Obey Him. Walk with Him all the days of your life and leave all these false teachers behind. Yeah, that's really good. And I would just, my final thing is make sure that, you know, as you consume these episodes and you're getting equipped and you're understanding the dangers of them, please also pray for those, like pray for somebody like Priscilla Schreier. pray for those who are caught in heresy, that their eyes may be opened to the truth and pray for those who are following them. And so that's what I want to just say there. And if you're following Priscilla Schreier, I would plead with you and echo what Michelle said and just say, please stop following. Please stop listening. Please stop giving your money and your time and your attention. and your eyeballs and your hearts and all of that to what she is saying. She's not going to help you. She's not going to aid you. So be wise and be discerning like we're commanded to in First Thessalonians 5.21, to test all things and hold fast to what is good. And so just, you know, be a good, be a good servant, be a good soldier of Christ and do what Second Timothy 2.15 says. you know, study to show yourself approved. Because if you do that, when these kind of things come up, guess what? You're gonna be like, uh, I don't think that is right, right? So, you know, if something is questionable, if you have red flags, if you have questions, if you have issues about what somebody is saying, that's probably a good sign, especially if you've been a Christian, like Michelle is saying, for some time. that you should probably not be listening anymore. So, those are just some final, final, final thoughts, I guess. So, Michelle, I want to thank you for joining us, and it's always a pleasure to have you on, and thank you for your ministry. Guys, please check out Michelle's website and also A Word Fitly Spoken with Amy Spreeman. They do a great job, as always. Thank you so much, Dave. I really appreciate that. It was great being with you again and hope your listeners were edified.