Good morning. Welcome to the Faith Debate on News Radio 930 WFMD. Thank you so much for spending part of your day with us. And if you're listening later on podcasts, well, good evening, afternoon, or whatever it might be to you. I'm Troy Skinner. I'm the pastor of Household of Faith in Christ online at HouseholdofFaithinChrist.com. Daniel Razvi is here. He's one of the pastors at the church that meets at Imran's house. They have a ministry that you can locate online at conqueredbylove.org. And David Forsey is here. He doesn't have a website, but I have it on good authority that he is chock full of fun. And we're going to test that theory today to see how much fun David Forsey is. So today we're talking about pastors, elders, overseers, in a general sense. We're going to be doing that actually for a number of weeks. As you know, if you've listened to the show before, we tend to do arcs of content. And our arc of content this time has to do with what the responsibilities are for pastors and how those might be different from laymen and that sort of thing. And these are topics that kind of came up on the air or shortly after a show was done off the air, and we said, let's write that down. And we've got a list. I'm not kidding. It's several dozen items. And so I'm trying to figure out how do I collate these in a way that makes sense. So I've taken about somewhere between six and ten different topic ideas and kind of squished them together into what is hoped to be this series of shows. So we're not going to talk all about them today, but today we're going to focus on preaching and the ordinances, if we can cover both of those. And by ordinances, I'm specifically talking about the Lord's Supper and baptism. I know there's some debate about what the ordinances are. or what some might call sacraments, but we'll be focusing mostly on the Lord's Supper and Baptism, because the principles that apply there would probably apply elsewhere, too. So the question is, are preaching and the ordinances, you know, administering the Lord's Supper, baptizing someone, are these things reserved for only pastors to perform? Yes or no. So can somebody who's not a pastor preach? Can someone who's not a pastor baptize someone? Can someone who's not a pastor administer the Lord's Supper? um... that you know if so why if if not why not and their exceptions to the rules were those exceptions that kind of thing so who wants to get the ball roll i know daniel a lot of opinions they will start daniel will will just kind of react so daniel says yes it's interesting i i i always assumed growing up and because of different experiences i had i'd i'd just assume that the sacraments are what the people with believers do you know the worst upper and and and baptism in Ever have the impression that it should only be elders or pastors that administer those until it happened to come up in casual conversation with a pastor or elder at a presbyterian church who was like Not and he was Extremely kind about it, but it took him by surprise like why would anybody think that you can't that anybody other than a pastor would be allowed to do the end of the war supper of course it's only pastors and elders that that That should administer the Lord's Supper, and I just I asked the question I don't I didn't think I got a good answer mostly because this particular gentleman wasn't really prepared to answer the question here He wasn't expecting it is what what verse? What passage talks about that only elders or pastors should be administering these things, and I really can't See one. I mean there's elders are supposed to lead the church You know but they there's certain things that that the elders do, but it doesn't say only, and I guess we have to define a minister too, right? So we might take one at a time, maybe baptism, I know there's a lot of churches that practice the fathers or other friends who baptize you, not necessarily in person, and I think It's interesting, about baptism, Paul has an extended passage where he's talking about, well, I'm really glad that I didn't baptize any of you, because otherwise you'd be saying, well, Paul baptized me, so I'm some special person. And then it's funny, because in Paul fashion, he's like, well, actually, never mind. I did baptize him, and him, and also him. And by the way, I am a pretty special person. You know, but the point you know the point is is that don't be you know worried about that and so I said that that's interesting and I would take that passage to you know and infer from it that You back you don't need to be baptized by any particular person because that's that's not the point that the the purpose of the baptism is to show an outward expression of what God has done for you not not about anybody that that's you know specifically I mean it even says Jesus didn't baptize anybody only his disciples did So far I'm on the same page with Daniel. Troy, would you say only pastors should be performing these things? No. Have you heard that have you heard the argument? Maybe made a little bit better for the other side say I think especially in the Presbyterian Church It's a really big deal where only the elders can be administering the Lord's Supper and because they can only do it to members For the worst and the Catholics make a really big deal. Yeah, you know and yeah the high church Now I do think that the elders of a local body have some responsibility to police what's happening in the pulpit So not just anybody willingly can come preach. And I think that the responsibility for making that call would fall to the elders or the pastors, the overseers, whatever label you want to use. So you're talking about preaching now or baptism? Yeah, because that was one of the things, preaching and the ordinances, right? I haven't really discussed the preaching yet. Yeah, so I was just kind of working in order on these things. So I was starting with the preaching. And I think if the elders, hey, you know what? This guy's not ordained as a pastor, but We, the people who are leading this church, who are responsible for leading this church, trust the message you're going to hear, and so we're giving the platform. I think that's totally appropriate. And, you know, taking responsibility for it, and then also being able to say, you know, if someone says something, not good or right, making the correction. And then to pivot from that into the ordinances, I think I probably have a similar kind of attitude about the Lord's Supper, actually. because the elders uh... typically are the ones you know that lead pastor sometimes he's a contemporary phrase is one who's officiating what's going on right but the the deacons are the ushers are involved in oftentimes in distributing the elements they're part of that they're holding the copper the bread or what have you uh... but they're doing that under the oversight of the elder who's responsible making sure things are done in an orderly fashion and the way they're supposed to so i think i have a similar so my attitude about that i'm not sure about that is i think Any believer could baptize anybody and maybe that and maybe that gets into discussion about Constitutes baptism whether you should be sprinkled or immersed or anything, but that might be beyond beyond. Yeah, that's a topic Yeah, that's a separate series of shows, but I think Can someone good I was just gonna ask a ask a quick do you can somebody baptize themselves? You know Yeah, we're doing that I think I think no I think I think you're kind of making a mockery of it that way. The whole point of baptism is, I think, to be public. That's a very key point, whether you're immersed or whatever. This is a public proclamation of, look, I am saved. For there to be witnesses, yeah. Witnesses. And so if you're doing it to yourself, I mean, like, that's... If that's public and you're doing it to yourself, then it seems a little bit arrogant To me that you know that you can't there's nobody that's qualified to baptize you except yourself That's a little bit weird if you're gonna do it by yourself in your closet Then that's that's what you're supposed to do with praying, but I think baptism needs to be public now baptism doesn't save you Doing baptism wrong doesn't necessarily unsave you either It would not anyway not not just not necessarily not at all on the Lord's Supper. I have a little bit of different opinion because What I read you can take that by yourself Well, yes No, so my opinion on the Lord's Supper is that the Lord's Supper is a commandment to be done at Passover With your family in your house when you slaughter the lamb you're also Breaking the unleavened bread, and you're drinking those cups when Jesus said This do as oft as ye eat it it being the Passover meal. He was currently eating So, in my theological understanding, that the commandment is to be done, you could certainly remember his death at any time, but the commandment is to do it at Passover. And it really irks me that the Church has completely separated Easter, or Resurrection Sunday, as a lot of people say now, from Passover. They really need to be linked. And that, to me, is when you remember his death and resurrection, and his body and blood being broken and shed for us. That's the commandment for the Lord's Supper. Now, there is some implication, based on some of what Paul is saying, that the Church was remembering it more often than that. It's not extremely clear when they were remembering it, but they were remembering it when they came together. And he's saying you're also being gluttons, too, and you need to be feasting and stuff, you need to actually treat this as a specific solemn remembrance. Now, using the bringing up of the Passover meal and pivoting that into the primary topic for today is interesting because the Passover meal would be led by the head of the family, the family meal. And so I guess Daniel would be saying that, you know, if you're going to recognize or observe the supper, it's going to be the father who's handling it. Is that what you would say? Yeah, I would say so. And there are many churches in which that, I was at one just recently, that's what they do. They have the whole bunch of cups that are filled and each father goes and takes a cup and they pass it around to their family. So the father administers and the father is responsible for determining which of his kids are allowed to take of the Lord's Supper. So the elders are kind of setting up the cups at the front of the church, but then each family breaks into groups and does that. Now this is definitely a rabbit trail, but it's on my mind, and if there's a quick answer, if not, I'll write it down, it'll be a separate show. But if we're going to make a tight association with the Passover meal, I'm not sure that I can think of any teaching from the Old Testament that children would have been excluded from that meal. So if we're going to make that type of association, should the Christian celebration of the Lord's Supper include all the children? I mean, there are Christians who advocate for that, right? It's not just paedio-baptism, but there's also paedio-communion positions out there. Right. Well, I think that there's a passage from Paul saying, basically, if one spouse is believing the children are sanctified, otherwise they would be unholy, or something to that effect. And a lot of people would take, including me, would take that to mean that if a child has not reached the mental age where they would be able to process what sin is and salvation is, Verbalized it anyway. They are considered part of the kingdom because they are covered by their their parents So that's an interesting whether they would be able to I even though I've kind of come over the last few years to that position of well This is the Passover And I do celebrate Passover. I still don't have my kids take that part of it, which is interesting. Yeah, well, because I was I always grew up saying, well, no, you can't take a supper until you're right. I get it. And by the way, I and I think it does say, let me it's like the head covering for me. I don't have a firm position, but I will say I lean in the direction of being attracted to the patio communion position because of the covenant family idea. Yeah. You know, it's very interesting. And I think When It I mean it does say let a man examine himself and so there is there is that idea of individual responsibility It says because people haven't done this that's why some of you died so you need to take it really seriously the Lord's Supper Anybody who wants to be flippant about it? I think that's a really big mistake there Paul was very clear say saying you know the People have died over this over coming and eating and drinking unworthily so I don't want to make a a wrong decision on that. It's interesting. That's worth considering more, though. And that's a whole topic, too, about what is meant by taking it unworthily. But that's a sermon, probably. What I normally say, if I'm introducing the word supper to people, I would say something to the effect of make sure you don't have unconfessed sin in your life, whether you're saved or not. Are you coming in? And so that, if it's right back onto topic, so if that's sort of a warning, some people call that fencing the table, right? If the table needs to be fenced, Who fences the table if not the overseer the under shepherd the pastor and and yeah, I mean I I think probably the majority of people would agree that that's a case that the the Senior elder if you will is the senior most elder is ultimately taking on that responsibility right of when the the group of believers that are gathered under his authority are, you know, participating in these ordinances, right? So, but then, you know, some will, then there's almost like an issue of like management, right? Like some people think that it should be extremely micromanaged, right? Whereas, you know, like he's, it's going directly from his hands to, You know to the person taking it especially the Catholics will be well known for such a position sure yeah, but they see like Episcopal's you know to a Catholic the Lord's Supper is the service like there may be preaching there may be praying stuff But the Lord's Supper the mass is the actual service and so when you when they excommunicate somebody the person still allowed to attend this is they can't take the communion and Whereas in the Protestant faith, usually we're saying, if you're excommunicated, we're not having anything to do with you. We're not even going to have you to dinner, necessarily, because you need to really have a wake-up call and come to your senses. And they have theological commitments that they don't want the bread and the wine leaving the hands of the priest, because, you know, their theology tells them that it actually is It doesn't just represent right it doesn't represent or it's not just spiritual like it actually becomes To the body and blood and if you drop it and step on it or something like you have totally sinned against God Yeah, it doesn't go in the trash. It doesn't go down the drain it all gets consumed right right so Yeah, I mean it Yeah, I think we're on the same page as far as I Now that's the responsibility. Yeah. So let's, let's see if we can pivot back to something that Daniel asked like 10 minutes ago. Like what are some things people who would disagree with us might point to? Let's see if we can get a second. By the way, the voice you hear right before mine was David Forsey. The other voice you're hearing on today's show is Daniel Rasby. I'm Troy Skinner. This is the faith debate on news radio, nine 30 WFMD. I'm not positive that this is where they would go, but here's one of the places I think they might go. Like Acts chapter 13 early on in the chapter versus two and three, Um, and while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, set apart for me, this is God talking Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. And then they fast and prayed and laid hands on them and sent them away. So this is an ordination. They have particular work to which they've been called. I think the idea there would be that they've been called to be overseers, elders, that sort of thing. So they have these kinds of responsibilities. Now whether or not you can shoehorn the Lord's Supper and baptism and preaching into that, that would be an additional conversation we'd have. But they would say, there is something different where these guys are set apart and called. They're ordained onto something, right? Ordained into something that's not just every believer. And I think that's true. So I think the question is, if they're ordained into something, some role, what is that role? Like, what is distinct about being the pastor from being not the pastor? And I think that by default it's been, well, they're the ones that preach, they're the ones that hand out the elements during the Lord's Supper, they're the ones that baptize people, you know, they're the ones that marry couples, which is, you know, that's a separate topic we'll be getting to, actually, possibly next week, I think. So, what is the work to which they've been called, do you think? Well, I mean, I think you could use that particular passage to say, okay, God calls particular people to particular works. But Paul and Barnabas were obviously not called to be particular Elders over particular they were missionaries, right? Yeah. Yeah, so they think churches But so I can I can take out of that the point that okay. God does set apart certain people for particular roles within the church The kinds of rolls you might break in half and use during the Lord's Supper exactly I wouldn't break a roll have to be a flatbread Yeah, no no yeast no leaven Well, I did go to a church once where that's what they had they had a big yeast roll You just break off pieces of it. That's not uncommon. Yeah so You know but I think we have to look at scripture and say okay when when when we are told what the elders are supposed to be doing and What is included in? You know what what work are they set apart to do specifically and? Lords supper and baptism are not in those in those lists of I think they they shepherd the flock they disciple they understand who what their flock is what they're Proposed they exhort they they teach because it says elders must be apt to teach and So those are the things the elders are definitely doing I guess the question really is because even in this other church right this This elder that I was talking to at one church his church does that thing where they they hand out? To each man like a cup and that the man shared his own family each head of household Right if there's a widow then she gets the cup and she shares with her kids so the even and even in his understanding The he as the elder is not deciding which of the kids gets it or whatever he just But he will he will give the cup to anybody and it's and he'll say look you need to either be a member of this church or a member in good standing of another church that you Affirm to us you are and we and we You know don't have reason to disbelieve you on that then we'll do that so they have at least some cursory Fencing like you're saying Troy And, you know, but the more I think of it, the more it seems like the whole purpose of the Lord's Supper really is a Passover thing to me. So I don't get the impression that the church has to be doing a lot of that. And you're not alone. There are a number of churches that they have the supper one time a year, and it's usually in some association with the Passover season. And then other churches, it's once a month, once a quarter, every week. You know what have you so I don't know if anybody doesn't more than once a week. Are there any churches? Maybe it may be I think But maybe maybe they do it every time they get together for every meal I think I've heard some people that do like a remembrance at each meal. Yeah, I can see some logic to that and But we pray before each meal, most people do, so that may be where that comes from. On the baptism side, I'm more confident that that does not need to be done within a church or during a church service. In fact, I don't get the impression that baptism historically was done in the middle of a church service in a building or whatever. You go out to the river and do it or something. So you may have a baptism service where we get together, we're gonna do a bunch of baptisms, but having it done in the middle, like in a baptismal that's built into the sanctuary and stuff, I'm not sure if that's necessarily the way. Biblically it's done when you repent. That's true, and that's interesting because there's a There's a big subset of Christians that are like well I got saved and then it might be months or years later before they you baptize And you see this especially with kids a lot of times kids don't want to get up in front of a bunch of people and do that I know that I when I or sometimes parents are hesitant For the for the kids because you don't believe them. Yeah, yeah, I mean I've when I got saved, I was four years old. I remember it very, very vividly, but it took me a few months before I wanted to get baptized, but it wasn't like that day. Um, and I did, at the time we were going to a church that had a baptismal and the pastor, you know, went in with me and dumped me in the bathtub basically. And that's what it was. Um, so, but, but I, I, I can understand, especially from as now I'm a parent, you know, when do you, when do you believe that they actually are? Making you a true profession of faith But you know then and that's and that's where the pedo Baptist will say well I mean when you get saved your whole household gets baptized look at the jailer he had his whole household baptized in one night It was that does that mean they all made exactly the same profession of faith, and no I mean Biblically speaking usually when there's what the father does something the whole family does that oh? And we're all followers of Baal now, or we're all followers of Ra now, or we're all followers of Yahweh now, and that's what we're going to do. And so there's an aspect of community as well as individualism, and I think too much emphasis on one or the other is the wrong thing. thing. Yeah. But just to tie a knot in something that was brought up earlier, because we talked about, you know, Saul and Barnabas, and they were particularly special in their roles. But there are other parts in the New Testament where it does say to appoint elders in each city and that sort of thing. So as we're talking about, is that because that's what it kind of exists now. And so what are the role for the elders now? And this is not meant to be self-serving, but boy, it seems like an argument for if not house churches, at least smaller churches, because if there is this great spiritual danger in participating in the Lord's Supper, for example, or false conversions and baptizing somebody willy-nilly who doesn't really understand what the heck's going on, if that's an important thing, Somebody's got to be able to have some some reins on that and if you got a church with thousands of people, you know There's your first probably yeah, then your your vetting process is more difficult, but if you're in a smaller setting It's a smaller church, even if it's not a house church. Let's say there's a church with like 50 or 100 people and And they know that David Forsey is under church discipline, because they're small enough. They know what's going on. They know he's under discipline. And he shows up. He wants to participate in the supper. Like, David, you can't do that. Even if it's not the pastor handing him the elements, the person who's handing him the elements will be like, you can't. You've been excommunicated. You're under discipline. What are you doing? Well, they wouldn't even let him in the door, potentially. Potentially. Right? Yeah. Depending on the... Depending on the church. Yeah. Well, sure. The size of the church. if there's particular, yeah, or if there's just a particular practice there. Yeah. Right. Or, or based on the offense. So we didn't have, we didn't have a whole lot of debate on that one, which I think might be good. I was going to set the stage nicely. Cause I think we might have a little more debate as we move forward. Next week, we'll be talking about marriage. I thought you guys were going to really push back on the Passover thing and whether Pat and whether pastor wasn't the topic. I'll do that another time. Things have to do with marriage and pastors. One, them officiating marriage ceremonies and also, uh... if only married men conserve as pastors so i think we might have some fodder for some discussion about that a little more intently than we had this week so i'm troy skinner also joining the panel this week daniel or as the and david forcing And you can find me online at HouseholdOfFaithInChrist.com. You can find Daniel and their ministry online at ConqueredByLove.org. Of course, you can find this show and this radio station online at WFMD.com. This is the Faith Debate. Thank you so much for listening. We will hopefully have you welcome us into your lives again next week, about 167 and a half hours from right now. Until then, God bless.