What is Zen Buddhism? Today on the show, we're going to be hearing more from Marsha Montenegro from christiananswersforthenewage.org. Welcome to the Youth Apologetics Training Podcast. All right, welcome back. So today, guys, we're gonna be hearing, like I mentioned earlier, from Marcia Montenegro, her website christiananswersforthenewage.org. We've had a few shows with her. Today we're gonna be talking about Zen Buddhism. I gotta say, guys, this subject, probably more than any other subject, has really stumped me. I have such a hard time coping with a worldview that for the most part does not deal with or engage reality, logic, reason, trying to understand your origins, trying to understand why, the why question. I'm always asking why. I'm always trying to figure out how something works. And to find a religion, a belief system that shies away from, that really doesn't care about these answers, that really sends me in a tailspin. And you're certainly going to hear that today as we progress through this second part with Marsha. There were a few points at which it just wasn't computing. couldn't get my head around the fact that they do not want to embrace reality. They don't wanna ask the question why and get answers. But anyway, you're gonna love this. This has been a really fun time with Marsha. So anyway, let's go ahead and jump back in. We're gonna go to part two of my interview with Marsha Montenegro on Zen Buddhism. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And you know, back when I was following that new age slash occult path, I think I would have been more drawn to Zen than anything else. But yeah, sorry about that rabbit trail. I just, I was, I was just trying to figure out do Zen Buddhists, you know, they have to realize that there are some rules at play if they think that if you don't achieve this formlessness, you're going to have to be rebirthed. And I'm wondering if they ever think that, you know, they ever reached that in their thought process of, wait a minute, what, what is governing that? What is keeping these, this, this thing together? What has started the rules? But sounds like very few of them really have considered that or thought that through. Uh, and that it's, it's almost like a path that nobody's really established yet. Well, I, here's what I do now. This is just my opinion. My opinion on that is that they wouldn't really think in terms of rules, for one thing, and to think, I wonder how this all got started or why is it this way, that there's going to be rebirth if I'm not cultivating detachment. I don't think they would think in terms of who set this up or why is it like that, because thinking in those terms is actually a way, would be seen as thinking in such a way that you are divorcing yourself from being able to have a spiritual insight. Because you're thinking logically about it. So you're trying to get a logical answer. And that, in Buddhism, that is not seen as being helpful, in terms of asking these, you know, having some kind of spiritual understanding. It's not, they're not really against logic. They wouldn't say we're against logic, or reason doesn't exist, you know, because a lot of, in a lot of the teachings, they're using reasoning. But when it comes to these ultimate things, like realizing the spiritual true nature of reality, or or why am I doing this, or what's the point of it, then all of a sudden you're falling back into this old pattern of thinking, and one of the teachings in Zen Buddhism is that you have to be empty in order, you know, in order to learn, in order to get anywhere. There's even a little illustration or poem about it where a teacher, you know, pours some tea into the cup of a student, and he keeps pouring, and it's overflowing, you know, it's coming off the table and on the floor, and the student's like, stop, stop, you know, you're pouring too much tea into the cup, you know, and the teacher says something like, well, this is how your mind is, you know, you're not gonna learn this way, you have to, and he picks up the cup and empties it or something like that, and says, this is how you have to be, you have to be empty. I think there's even a book or several books on Zen Buddhism that use that concept of emptiness, So you're filling your mind with these questions, like who got started and why, you know, why is it this way, and that's just putting stuff in the cup that's going to keep it from being empty to receive the teaching. So that is how I would analyze your question. I mean, that's how I would answer it, try it from that viewpoint, because this kind of thinking and Zen, it's not this this Western thinking. For example, there's no question of, you know, what is good and what is evil is a big issue, for example, in Christianity. Okay, what is good, what is evil, how do we know good from evil, okay? And of course, as you learn the Bible and learn about God, you know God is the He is a model of goodness. Goodness exists because of God, because God is good. So everything is based on the goodness of God that is good. And so a good and evil is a big deal in Christianity. One could say that, that's probably another statement. However, in Zen, or even Hinduism, you know, the issue isn't what is good and evil, the issue is what is the nature of reality. And so, good, and Taoism as well. Oh, I forgot to say I was involved in Taoism, too. So, not formal Taoism, but the ideas of Taoism that were coming into the West, like through Sriratrapa's book, the Tao of Physics, and other teachings like that. I was very captivated by Taoist teachings, which, by the way, you can find in Zen Buddhism, because Zen actually came from Chan Buddhism in China, when Buddhism went into China, it became Chan Buddhism, and it was a mixture of Taoism and Buddhism, because Taoism was already in China before Buddhism, and had taken hold in the culture there. And Taoism is a Chinese, essentially a Chinese religion. Well, when Buddhism came in, it kind of mixed with Taoism and became Chan, and then Chan went to Japan and became Zen Buddhism. So there are elements of Daoism in Zen Buddhism, and that's why you have this idea there, because in Daoism there's no God either, there's just the Dao. And so you can see some parallels there. And so, um, you know, I was very interested in Taoism and now I keep, see, I keep getting, I forgetting what the point I'm trying to make. I get off. Um, so I don't know if people are going to like, like this, um, like the way I'm discussing this or not, because I go off, you know, what I'm explaining things though, is they come to me that I think are important to know. And Oh, Oh yeah. I know what I was talking about. It's not good and evil. Well, Taoism, um, also is not concerned with good and evil. So a lot of people think that, you know, the yin-yang symbol, which was associated with Daoism, although from what I've read did not really come from Daoism, it already existed as a concept apart from Daoism, but it gradually got merged into Daoism. And so a lot of people in the West think the yin and yang, they think one side is evil, one is good, and it represents a harmony or a balance or something like that. Well, it does represent balance and harmony, but not about good and evil, because there is actually a Taoist text that says there is no such thing as good or evil. Now, that doesn't mean they won't say things are good or things are evil. What they'll say is that there's what appears to be good or what appears to be evil, you know, we have to deal with these concepts because there are things that appear evil to us or appear good, but ultimately there is no good or evil, because that's not really relevant to the ultimate question of, you know, what is the true nature of who you are and what is the true nature of reality. So that's the main question in Taoism and Buddhism especially, and not what is good and evil, or let's see how we can be good, you know. Now they do have ethics, you know, and you are supposed to follow these ethical paths in Buddhism. There's, you know, a whole list of them, and the monks have to follow these ethical things, but this is all part of the program, so to speak, to help you on your path to enlightenment. You know, it's not because being good is a good thing in and of itself. Or in Christianity, being good is a reflection of the goodness of God, and the goodness of Jesus Christ that we can never achieve, and that shows that we fall short, and that's why we need a Redeemer in Christianity, because we fall short of this absolute standard of goodness and perfection that is God. And so, out of his mercy and grace, you know, Jesus died to pay that penalty for sin, that we can't atone for our own sins and somehow be as good as God, but God accepts us through our faith in Christ. So the good and evil becomes a very essential part, really, of the Gospel, and that is just not a main you know, a main point, I guess I would say, of spiritual teachings in the East. It's sort of a side issue. And I thought of something else I wanted to say earlier when we were talking about the self and how the self isn't permanent, the individual self doesn't really have any permanence, it sort of exists only in the here and now because you're attached to that idea and you're living it out. But what they'll say is, they'll say, well, yes, you seem to have this self, and they call it the conventional self. So in order to talk about the self that you're identifying with now, they give it sort of a, like, temporary status of being real, and so it has a temporary reality, and it's called the conventional self. Now, I've seen that in both Tibetan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism. Oy vey. Hawk all clear, all clear now. And somewhere out there, one of my listeners just fell out of his chair and had a seizure. Oh, I hope not. No, but okay. So wow. So they don't believe in an afterlife yet. There is somewhat of a transition, a rebirth, and you might even spend some time, um, as, Oh, and don't get caught up on this one, but a hungry ghost, which again, yeah, it's not our Western idea of a ghost, but kind of that transition back to rebirth. They don't believe in good and evil. They don't believe in ultimate or absolute good or evil. Yeah. And they don't believe in a God. They don't believe well there it does seem that there is some elements of a hell that are possible temporarily if temporarily when you are speaking to a friend or a family member who is caught up in Zen Buddhism how in the world are you going to break through to them and try to share the truth of the gospel to them before I answer that can I say something about the afterlife okay There isn't an afterlife in terms of what we think of as an afterlife, but if you achieve the state of enlightenment, which probably takes many, many, many, many rebirths, the state of enlightenment is called nirvana, okay? It is not a place, it is a state, and it's the state where you have been able to detach from desire, and therefore there's no more rebirth and no more suffering, and that state is called nirvana. It's not, a lot of people think, oh, that's Buddhist heaven, but really that's not, because it's not like you're in this beautiful place and you're enjoying, you know, this great time or whatever people may think of that. It's a state where you have escaped the attachment to this false reality, therefore you've escaped it and you are no longer suffering. Now what is it like to be in the state of nirvana? Because obviously if you've escaped that and there's no more attachment and there's no individual self, you really basically aren't existing. You aren't existing as you. You aren't existing as you, you're just kind of part of the formlessness that is the ultimate nature of reality. And so I think that would be a good point, actually, to bring up with somebody. And I'm talking in terms of a Westerner. I really wouldn't know how to talk to a Zen Buddhist person in Japan. I mean, I could try, I certainly wouldn't. If I had the opportunity, I would maybe try to find out, is there her idea, what they think happens, where they go when they die, why are they coming back, what's the ultimate goal of all this? You know, I think you can always bring that up, but I don't feel like I have really any experience or expertise there. But if you're talking to a New Agers or a Westerner, especially if they've just kind of initially gotten interested in Zen Buddhism, they aren't real deeply involved, so they're still kind of learning the basic ideas, which may be very appealing, they may not realize the ramifications of this. So, you know, you can ask, you know, well, what do you know about nirvana? Or do you realize that in Buddhism, your individual self doesn't really exist? And it's only temporary. And so if it's only temporary and you gain the ultimate state where you've escaped that, then what are you? And what is there left to be anything if the self isn't permanent? You know what I mean? Right, right. Why would you strive for a state of nothingness where you can't even enjoy it? Well, yeah, that's kind of, that's, yeah. And I would bring that up because especially in the West, you know, we're a very, well in the United States anyway, we're a very individualistic culture. Now, I'm not saying that's always good. It's actually has, you know, there's a very bad side to it, where everybody wants what they want, or they care more about themselves than other people. So, of course, that's the very bad side of it. But we do have this very strong sense of individuality and each person being important. You know, every man has the right to pursue his happiness. You know, this is all part of the tradition of the country, the United States, our thinking. So everybody has a right, you know, we have rights, we have the Bill of Rights, etc. So, you know, we tend to be, you know, individualistic and seeing each person as important. Well, here you come along with Zen Buddhism, which is saying, hey, you know, yourself is just this composite of all your feelings and experiences and and physicality, and it's ultimately not real, and this is what's causing suffering, and so you have to go on. Eventually, if you get on this path of enlightenment and achieve nirvana, then you get away from that, but then what do you have? And actually, they won't answer from what I've read, and I have to say, I have not delved into what a lot of Buddhists say about nirvana. I just, you know, read things here and there, but I did read not too long ago that, you know, they won't describe it, and they say, well, you can't say anything about it. You can't say what that is, because anybody who's achieved that isn't around, you know, to say anything. So we don't know. This is just, this is the ideal state. It's somewhat like Taoism. You can't say what the Tao is, because any words that describe the Tao then you're not talking about the Dow. You can't even say what the Dow is. Of course, when you say you can't say anything about the Dow, you've just said something about the Dow. You just said something. But this mobana is kind of a similar thing. It's like, well, no one can really say what it is. And yet that's kind of a purpose. Now, I thought of one more thing to say. I have heard from people who have been to Japan and who know a lot more about it than I do. I've never been there. that certainly Zen Buddhism is pretty much the major religion, along with Shintoism, which is an ancient animistic religion that predates Buddhism, was already there when Buddhism came in. And that there's a real mixture there, that the people there, a lot of them may be Zen Buddhists, but they'll go to the Shinto priests, you know, for, and pay the Shinto priest money for good luck in the new year or, you know, to bless a wedding or whatever. So they're still kind of retaining this, you know, they're still attached to this animistic Shintoism. And I've also heard that they, when they, when they're, if they're a Zen Buddhist and they kind of do the Zen Buddhist type life, or they say they're Zen Buddhist, they aren't, they don't delve into these, philosophical ideas and implications of it. I mean, some do, who become serious about it, but for most people, it's just a cultural thing. So, you know, they're Buddhists, and they may have a few teachings that they've accepted that guide their lives as Zen Buddhists, but you could possibly come across somebody from Japan who considers himself or herself a Zen Buddhist and start talking about all this stuff about the conventional self and the impermanence of it, and they may not know what you're talking about. So I just want to say that, because having said all this stuff, I'm afraid somebody who hears this is going to go to Japan and meet a Zen Buddhist and say, well, I'm going to talk to you about the conventional self, and they'll be like, what are you talking about? So these ideas that are taken so seriously in the West by New Agers and people who get into Zen Buddhism, who are not always necessarily New Age, that just becomes their religion, you know, Zen Buddhism. I knew a few like that. They were not really New Agers. They may have been maybe at one time, but they found Zen Buddhism and that appealed to them the most, and they just totally dedicated themselves to that. Those kind of people tend to know about these ideas because they read all these books and these texts and the teachings from some of the Zen Buddhist monks, you know, from the 13th, 14th, 15th century, 16th, 17th, etc., when there was a lot of writing from the Zen Buddhist monks. And, you know, so they may know it, but in Japan, since it's a cultural thing there, they just kind of accept it. as their religion, and they don't necessarily delve into it. So I just want to make that point. Do you think that the allure here in the United States is more along the lines of just meditation? Because I know meditation is such a big thing in Zen Buddhism. Do you think that's one of the things that really draws people? Yes, I do. Absolutely. I think the meditation, the idea you know, just there that you may see pictures of monks meditating and that looks very peaceful. And then you, you know, you read about it or you hear about it, like this is the way to calm the mind. This is the way to, um, you know, be calm. Uh, and of course a lot of forms of, of Eastern meditation are actually, you know, marketed as stress reduction. And, uh, so, Yes, I think in this, in our culture, because we are very, you know, this is a very active culture where people tend to be success oriented. They tend to seek success or seek to have things or seek to make money or seek to have friends or be popular or whatever it is. There's a lot of stress in our culture, the type of culture we have. And so this seems like such an opposite you know, where you're just sitting, you're not doing anything. Be, be, you know, be here now. See that phrase is so popular. Like I just be here. The past doesn't exist. The future doesn't exist. All that exists is the present. And so when you're in the present, you're just with the present, you know, you just let everything else go. And it's very appealing to people who have worries, you know, about the future, who have anxieties about the past. This is very appealing and they feel like they can find some peace. And actually when you do the meditation, mindfulness meditation, which is becoming very big now, you know, we can almost do a whole other program just on that. Um, and it's in, you know, it's in the schools, it's in, uh, corporations are teaching it to employees. It's in the military, it's in the prison. Um, it's pretty much getting everywhere now. So this mindfulness becomes this sort of panacea. for the stress and when you do it, I, you know, I did these meditations and it did make me feel peaceful because pretty much if you're doing the breathing the way they say to do it, you're sitting still, you're breathing slowly a certain way and maybe other things that you're told to do, if you really do that for most people after a while, you're kind of putting yourself in a light trance state and it's very, it's very calming. And so you feel very good and you end the session and you're like, Oh, you know, I feel, I feel so much, you know, but then of course you have to do it again. It's not, you know, really, it doesn't really carry you through everything for most people because that calm goes away. Now some people say it does. They say, well, it has helped me be a calmer person. I am calmer. I'm kinder to people. I'm not as impatient. Some people do gain these benefits, or to them they're benefits, but of course the problem with this is that it then makes you think you have found some kind of psychological or spiritual answer to your problems, and that keeps you from knowing the true God, and it keeps you from seen Jesus, because you think you have an answer. So, well, I'm not interested in Christianity, where, you know, you have to be good, as this is how a lot of people think who aren't Christians, you know, you have to be good to get into Heaven, or you have to follow these rules, or you have to go to church, or you have to read this book and believe everything in the book, you know, so that's how a lot of, that's how I saw Christianity before I was a Christian, and a lot of people think that way. So why all of that? Which seems like such a hassle. when I can just do this meditation and feel peaceful. You see, it's such a deception because it seems to offer this peace and this calmness and this answer to people with stressed out lives or with anxiety. And it's so simple and it doesn't cost any money. And you don't have to do it. You know, nobody's making you do anything. You just do meditation in the privacy of your home. Nobody's there to say, well, okay, did you meditate today? And it's so there's no demands made on you. And so this is extremely appealing. And this, of course, will take people away from Christ. Yeah. Wow. Wow. OK, there is a very strong appeal there that you can basically dodge reality. I mean, I see similarities between that and just some people decide to get caught up in drinking and some people get caught up taking various drugs. Here in Colorado, there is a particular one around here that people like very much that also puts them in a very calm, non-thinking state. I mean, they might desire a Twinkie sooner or later, but they've reached that same type of state. Um, what, what do you think about poking holes in the worldview by focusing on, um, our own conscience and our understanding of sin? Because we, you know, we all have God's law written on our hearts. Um, we all deep down inside, we understand evil. We do know evil. And, um, I mean, oftentimes we embrace it against our own wishes. What, uh, What do you say about trying to reach their conscience by really poking a hole through that worldview, focusing on sin and the conscience and stealing, lusting, these types of things, you know? Oh, well, it would depend a lot on the person I'm talking to. I would tend to try to stay away from the word sin for somebody in Buddhism because they're going to immediately reject it and then not you know, probably talk to you anymore or listen to you. So, they're going to just be like, oh, you're trying to come on with this heavy sin thing and trying to make me feel guilty, you know. So, I probably wouldn't use that word, at least initially, but I mean, I mean, if you want to show somebody that they need a savior and then to Zen Buddhism, I mean, it's going to take a while. You're going to have to invest some time and be committed. Of course, the person's going to have to be willing to talk to you. So I think the best way to do it is to ask questions, and talk about, first of all, why they like Zen Buddhism. What is the purpose of it? You know, what is it? Why are they doing it? Then, I mean, then you can bring up, I mean, of course, sin isn't going to make sense if they don't think there's a God, either, because sin is, you know, going against God. So, you know, talking about it, is irrelevant to somebody buying into the Zen Buddhist worldview. So, I mean, the most you can... I would probably tend more to talk about trying to talk about the reason that there is a God before I try to talk about sin, and I might do that by talking about the fact that, you know, do you... I would say maybe, do you think there's anything wrong? Can you do anything that you would consider to be wrong? Like, you know, if you You know, if you, uh, betray your husband or if you lie about your best friend to make her look bad, would you think that's wrong to make very hard for them to, to say, you know, to disagree with, you know what I mean? It would be like, Oh no, I don't think there's anything wrong about doing those things. You know, it'd be like, well, yeah, that would be wrong. That would hurt the person. You know, why would, why would it be wrong? What would hurt the person then? that would not be right. And so, and then you can say, well, so there is a right and wrong, you know, and then depending on how they answer that, you can go, you can try to show that we naturally make distinctions between things that are right and wrong. Um, and you could maybe try to say good and evil, but I would probably stick to the right and wrong. And then I would say, but then the fact that you feel this way, and probably most people would give that answer, you know, that those things are wrong. that shows that we have something in us, our conscience, that would bother our conscience to betray our husband or to lie about our best friend, that this would bother our conscience, because we care about these people. Well, that conscience is something implanted in us that reflects there is an ultimate right and wrong, and that reflects a God who is good, who is the ultimate absolute good. And because there is this ultimate absolute good, we have a natural standard for right and wrong. And of course, it's in our laws, you know, to murder is wrong, to steal is wrong, et cetera. So, and some people just say, oh, that's just to control society. But you know, you can usually talk about it on a personal level. And most people aren't gonna say, well, I don't care what I do. You know, there is no such thing as right or wrong. So, you know, I'll go, you know, down the street and hit my neighbor over the head with, a hammer and that's fine. You know, I mean, people just aren't going to agree with that unless they're a psychopath. So, you know, I think you try to show that they really do feel there is this right and wrong and they do act according to it. They live according to that. In some way, they have some kind of standards, moral standards they follow. Where does that come from? See, I would probably use that approach. Yeah, that's really good. And so you're you're really you're trying to get them to think logically about some of these big issues. And it sounds like you know, earlier you you mentioned that possibly even bringing up or asking them, you know, about the afterlife and why desire to achieve a state of nothingness. You know, what, what is in that for you that might appeal to the mind? And you know, I personally think that it'd be kind of fun to have a talk about origins with him and say, you know, if all of us are here stuck in this, almost this wheel of samsara where we just keep getting rebirthed, how did we get stuck here? And who's governing or calling the shots every time we die? I mean, who's keeping the rules going? and really try to get them to think about it for a while. Because I would imagine most people caught up in Zen Buddhism in the United States have never really put a lot of thought into it. It almost sounds like a lot of it is more of a hobby, you know, something, you know, I like to meditate, I like the feel, I like claiming I'm a Zen Buddhist, because that kind of sounds exotic. It's almost like, you know, many instances, at least a lot of people that I've met who have been caught up in it, it's almost a fashion statement to them, and that they really haven't put a lot of real serious thought into it. It's more about, well, I just like to do it. Well, for some people, that's true, if they're just doing the meditation. And that's why I always, if I know people who are doing the meditation, the mindfulness, and they may or may not know it's from Zen Buddhism, but they don't really know what Zen They're not really caught up in Zen Buddhism, they're caught into the mindfulness or into the meditation. And that's why I point out in my four articles on mindfulness on my website, by the way, ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org. I have four articles on mindfulness, and in those articles, I talk about some of the Zen Buddhist views that we've been discussing. And so I try to point out to them, this is the purpose of this meditation. This is the purpose of the mindfulness. You know, and I really do think when people do it over and over again, it alters their worldview. And so they begin to actually be affected by this meditation because what it does is it reprograms your mind. It reprograms your thinking. So a lot, so that's what I try to point out to people who are kind of into it on a superficial level, or they're just doing, or they think Zen is all about, you know, if they read a book by Alan Watts, who was a big purveyor of Zen Buddhism in his books, but he, also gave a Western spin to Zen Buddhism, and a lot of pure Zen Buddhists don't think he was really right on with his teachings, but his teachings were influential, influenced a lot of new-agers, and another writer who was from Japan was D.T. Suzuki. But so a lot of people, you know, maybe read an Alan Watts book and think this is really cool, you know, I kind of like these ideas here, then in the art of motorcycle maintenance, etc. And they don't really understand the deeper meaning. Yeah, I think it'd be good to try to show them that. Now, as far as the origins go, I just maybe it's just me, Mike. But I really didn't care about that. Like if someone came to me and said, well, how did all this get started? How do you understand why? Why? How did we all end up here kind of this way? I would've been like, well, I don't know. I don't really care. You would've gotten nowhere with me on that question. I've been like, yeah, that's so typical of a Western thinker. You know, they're trying to figure it out. How did it start? Well, I'm not interested, mister. You know, you go off with your little Western ideas. They're trying to figure out how something got started. I don't care. I just know how things are and I know how it's working for me to see a lot of now. It could be. It could be some people. It makes might think about that or it might make them think. I'm just giving you a very subjective answer on me and I never came across anyone who said, well, I wonder how all this got started. Cause once they kind of got into it and got some kind of benefit, they didn't really care. That is so fascinating. It, it really is so backwards from, my way of thinking from so many people's way of thinking, you want to figure stuff out, you want to think it through, I want to believe something that's true, not something that feels true. Oh, that makes sense. You know, yeah, whenever in, and I get it, I get it where I used to walk that path. And nowadays, I, I despise that way of thinking because I want to understand. I don't want to play make-believe. I don't want to just do something because it feels right. I want to do it because it is right. But that's because you're a Christian. And so a non-Christian isn't necessarily going to see it that way or think that that's appealing. Yep. Especially a new age person. Well put. Marcia, it's been an honor having you on the show again. It's been a blast. You've got us thinking. Boy, it's such a fascinating topic, really. Your website, ChristianAnswersForWhat? TheNewAge.org. Again, that was ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org. If somebody wanted to support what you're doing, how would they go about doing it? Well, thanks for asking that. I am a missionary with Fellowship International Mission. Their website is F, like Frank's, F-I-M.org, F-I-M.org. And You can go to their website, they have a whole page on giving where you can contact them and ask, or you can contact me through my website or on Facebook. I'm on Facebook personal page as Marsha Montenegro, and what might be easier to find, because there's more than one Marsha Montenegro, although I think it says Christian Answers for the New Age under my name, I'm not sure, but I have a page called Christian Answers for the New Age. And so you can either send me a message or just post it on the page, if you want, and say, I want to find out more about supporting you, because I do live on the partnership with churches and people who support me monetarily, and of course, through prayers. But that is where my income comes from, you know, about 90% of it. I get, sometimes I get income from writing, but that's not anything you can live on. So my, my income I live on comes from, uh, people and individuals. And if you give through FIM, they have an account for me. You will get a tax deductible receipt. So everything you give to me through FIM, is tax-deductible. So a lot of people do want to know that. And just giving to me directly isn't tax-deductible, but giving to me through FIM is. They're a mission agency in Allentown, Pennsylvania. It's actually where they are, although I live in Northern Virginia. And that's how people can give to me, and I appreciate you asking that because, you know, that is a way to participate in this ministry and to be a part of it. I consider all my partners, you know, kind of part of the Christian Answers for the New Age team, because they definitely are a part of it. Right, right. And they really are. I mean, if they're supporting what you're doing, that's what keeps you out there doing what you're doing and spreading that message. And so, yeah, they get to supply the ammunition, if you will, for the one on the front lines. So, you know, it's a very noble thing. I noticed here on your website, ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org, if you click on About Kena, And then right under your picture, there's a list of items. At the bottom of those items, there's a donate online. And that takes you to that FIM web page that I'm thinking is affiliated to you. Well, it's a page actually where people can give to anyone that's with FIM. And of course, I haven't ever given to myself, so I don't know exactly, but I have had many people do this. Some people have done it as a one-time gift. So, you know, I have received funds this way, so it must be very, you know, it must be very customer-friendly in terms of explaining how to give. You know, you probably have to put my name in. Some mission boards have account numbers for their missionaries because they're very large, but this mission board is not Terribly large it's actually rather small so they know the names of all of their people Okay, yeah, it's it's easy. It's easy, so you just drop onto this page. There's three lines it says Select how you'd like to donate you drop it down you can say I? You know specific ministry is probably the best one for you, and then enter specific a missionary put their name your name give amount put in an amount and You can do it with PayPal looks like I don't know you know like I say I don't do this, so I'm not sure but people have done it, so I'm assuming it's pretty explanatory then you know some people want to give monthly and They can actually have that money taken out of their checking account if they want, or they can just do it on their own. Some people give quarterly. Some people give when they can. It all is good, no matter how the person is deciding. And I do want to say a lot of people think, no, I don't want to give till I can give $50 a month. I just don't want to do something like 10 or 20. And I just want to say that You know, five people giving $10 a month is $50. $10 a month is better than $0 a month. So I don't want people to think that it's embarrassing for them to maybe give $10 a month. That is not, I don't think, oh, that's a low amount. This person's only given. I am so grateful for, you know, that amount. I mean, it just, you know, I am grateful for every single penny. And so I don't judge the amounts. I don't think, oh, this person gives 50 and this person gives 20. There is no judgment from me at all, believe me. You give as the Lord leads and I am happy to receive whatever it is. I have talked to people who seem like they would be embarrassed to give me a low amount, so then they don't give anything. This is a problem, so I just want people to know. There is no judgment on the amount. When you try to do ministry and you are solely basing your life off this ministry, and it's not that you're doing it to make money, you're doing it to please the Lord and serve the Lord, but at the same time, you gotta somehow feed yourself. Pay my rent. You know, take care of those, that's right, those needs in life. Anything helps, anything helps. And I have been doing this for 18 years. Just so people know, I've been doing this full-time. I did it part-time before that when I was working. It was pretty part-time, although I was pretty busy. But I've been doing it full-time for 18 years. And so this is not just a fly-by-night thing that I'm doing. It's something that I really feel the Lord has called me to. He's opened the doors. And I really, you know, I feel like this is the way the Lord is using me in my past. It's through this ministry. Amen. And I do thank you. Thank you very much, Mike. So praise God. It's been a pleasure having you, Marsha. Once again, we'll have to do this again sometime. Oh, thank you so much, Mike, for having me. I mean, this was just I enjoyed it. I hope that I wasn't confusing, and I pray that this information is edifying. Maybe somebody's going to run into somebody who's interested in Zen Buddhism, and they'll feel better equipped after having heard this. So I just pray the Lord will use it for His purposes to reach people with the love and truth of Christ. And I thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to share. You are so welcome. And yes, it was very informative. Yes, there were some moments where I probably sound very confused because my Western mind was twitching. But no, this gives us this gives everybody and I think a lot of my listeners are going to be on the same page. We have a very strong Western mindset. And when we're confronted with these types of worldviews, sometimes we have to listen to a podcast like this two or three times to get our brain wrapped around it. to grasp where a person is coming from when they subscribe to this worldview. So yeah, no, it's very good. Very good. So I appreciate it very much. And perhaps we'll have to come back and do this again and talk about Tibetan Buddhism. Okay, sounds good. I'm always happy to do that and, and share this information on your program. So thank you so much. Well, all right, there you go. That's the end of it. Again, guys, that was Marsha Montenegro, her website, christiananswersforthenewage.org. I really did have a lot of fun with this conversation and hopefully we can have her back on. I know that we always have a good time when we talk. So anyway, next week, and I might even post this a little bit sooner, but next week we're gonna be hearing from Jason Pratt. He's a rocket scientist. This guy might just have some insight on whether or not the Earth is flat. So yes, we're going to go back to this subject of whether the Earth is spherical or flat, and yes, I've already recorded two parts with Jason Pratt and he had a lot to say. The guy really knows what he's talking about. You guys are not going to want to miss this one. So anyway, with that, I love you guys and we'll see you next week.