Okay, you explain. We don't have the real picture of oranges. We don't have the real object in our minds. It's kind of like the Kantian dichotomy between reality as it is and reality as it appears to us. And if you could just explain again how you basically avoid that dilemma. Well, the object is in my mind and it isn't in my mind. We have to clarify what it means for an object to be in consciousness. An object is not in my mind in the sense that water is in a glass. That is a spatial use of the word in. Where the objects of consciousness are contained inside the mind. That's not my understanding of the way objects are in the mind. Okay? Because you run into all kinds of problems with that. Not the least of which is you're trying to treat the mind as some spatial object. And the mind just isn't that sort of an entity. Now, but objects are in consciousness. they're in the mind in the sense that they become present to consciousness so to say that this picture is in my let's just say my consciousness now it is to say that I have an act of awareness directed on the picture and that my awareness is directed toward and upon the picture And the picture is an object directly present to my consciousness. There's nothing between me and the object. There's languages in between me and the object, so I'm trapped behind language like Postmodernists think, and all I can do is talk about language. My sense images aren't trapped between, my nerve endings aren't between me and the object. The object is directly present. to my sensory act. And it's a part of the sensory act in the sense that it is directed toward it. So part of being in your consciousness is that now you can close your eyes and you can still see me in your mind's eye if it were a picture? No. No? No. What it means to say that it's in my mind is just that. An act of being aware of it includes me, the sensory act, and the picture. And the picture is part of that whole complex. If there was no picture, I would not be aware of it. So you have a hole, in a sensory act you have a hole, like a baseball game. And that has constituents in it, things in it, that act of seeing a picture. What are its constituents? I'm one of them. The object and the type of conscious act I direct toward it. Whether it's smelling the picture, that would form a different hole. And it's a seeing. And those are different. I'm not the same thing as the seeing. The seeing is not the same thing as me or the picture. And the picture, they're all three different. But the act of seeing is a state in me that is directed on the picture and the picture is part of that act. in the sense that it is the object toward which the act is directed. If physicalism was true, then there would be no sense experience would be impossible. Right, that's right. And all I would be would be a computer causally interacting with inputs and outputs. And inputs and outputs would just be physical things. Just wordlings and stuff. What's your definition of a conscious act? Any act that involves sentience or awareness. A subconscious state is a state that could be brought to consciousness. And is that conscious act one of our properties as human beings, as what we are? It isn't a property, but it contains properties. Acts aren't properties, they're types of events. So would it be a faculty? No, it's an event. An act is an event. And an event is not the same thing as a... A faculty is a capacity to do an event. So consciousness is the manifestation of what we are. It's an act that we can perform. Consciousness is a set of properties of our states. You asked about an act. Okay. And then you move to consciousness. So consciousness itself is a function of our properties? No. Consciousness is a type of property that characterizes all of our sensitive bodies. You've probably got time for one more question. Could you elaborate more when John was talking about the brain being an input output? Yeah. What happens in the asylum? What happens when, say, somebody gets brain damage? They lose their mind can't function. because the mind depends on the brain for some of its ability to function like I depend upon my car for some of its function. Similarly, when you engage in certain kinds of depressive thoughts you can deplete your norepinephrine in your brain which is a chemical that helps with depression and it has to do with neurotransmitters and synapse sparking in the brain, electrical sparking and through having a bad thought life you can literally, your soul, your mind can cause brain depletion in your chemicals. So it goes both ways. A dysfunctional mind can actually cause a dysfunctional body. And a dysfunctional body can cause a dysfunctional mind. So you see the brain as a great deal less central to the process? No. The brain is just an organ. The brain is an interesting and important organ. But it's an organ. That's all it is. It's a good organ. But it's not, by the way, the only organ by which I experience the world. You have meanings. And feelings all throughout your body. Anger can reside in your stomach. You have feelings of anger in your stomach. My question might change the subject matter a little bit. If I interpret it correctly, you say that the mind actually exists in the spiritual realm rather than the physical realm. Yes. Is it possible then that two minds can have an experience together, the minds themselves which actually end up in a conscious state in both people? Say it again. Because our minds exist in a spiritual realm, they might have a contact that might show themselves in a physical sense in the actual person. In more of a conscious sense in two people because their minds had an experience together in a spiritual realm. I think there are ways of being aware of presences that are not at all physical that don't require There are other ways of attending, the personal presence and all that sort of thing. I think people sometimes can come in a room before their bodies come in. I think many times a person shows up at the door before they get there. You can feel their presence before they even get to the door. You have more of a faculty with the mind then? You need to be aware of personal presence. Personal presence can't be reduced to physical presence. And there are ways persons can be present to one another that's not simply physical. Talking to kids is not more than just eating. Oh yeah, in fact, that's the basis of fasting. Because the fasting in the scriptures is actually a form of healing. Fasting is a form of taking the illiteral nourishment From feeding on feeding on the Word of God feeding on it having energy used into the soul from the meditative act Which can actually enlighten the eyes? It can have an actual physical glow that it can produce Okay at that point I think we're going to close it for today. This has been really, really good. Dr. Mike. Thank you so much for your ministry. I've certainly appreciated this, dear brother. The honor was all ours. Why don't we close with a word of prayer. Father in Jesus' precious name, we just thank you, Lord, that our minds were challenged. that we were challenged to think more deeply and to study more deeply your word and we know Lord that you don't want us to just store up head knowledge but you want us to apply these truths that we learn about you and about your creation you want us to apply these truths to our lives so that the changes that you want made are made and we become more like your son Jesus every day and that we impact our community with the love of the compassion the gospel message of Jesus Christ and Lord we pray that you make us better and better defenders of the faith not so that we can win bragging rights but so that we can minister to and witness to more and more people who long to be like Paul who became all things to all men so that some might find salvation in Christ we thank you Lord for our brothers Dr. Mike and Dr. JP and the hours of study that they they could have been doing other things but they decided to devote their lives to the study of your word and the study of the ideas and the thoughts of men so that they can take the gospel message and impact their society and share the love of Jesus Christ and the salvation message with others who are sometimes tough to communicate with and so I pray Lord that you would make us all communicators of the word so that we would understand the people that we're dealing with and communicate the same gospel message that was preached 2,000 years ago, but in terms that modern man can understand. And we thank you, Lord, that this is not done through human strength, that your indwelling Holy Spirit works through us and uses us as his instruments so that through His power lives are changed and people come to the salvation that comes only in Jesus Christ. In Jesus' precious name we pray.