Well, good morning, everyone. Welcome to Wheat Among the Tares, our live program brought to you every Wednesday morning from Gethsemane Baptist Church, located here in Lexington, South Carolina. I appreciate you joining us this morning, a little under the weather, but thankful to be behind the microphone this morning. Continue to pray for Pastor Williamson. He is not feeling well today and will not be with us. But we are here, and we're thankful again for the opportunity to bring to you these programs every Wednesday morning. I want to go straight to our guest, Attorney David Gibbs, who is the president of the Christian Law Association. Brother Gibbs, welcome to Weed Among the Tares this morning. Oh, thank you. What an honor to be with you. I'm sorry to hear that Pastor's not feeling well. You know, brother, there's some things going around, and unfortunately, we all come down with it from time to time, but we're thankful that, again, we could be here this morning. And I'm appreciative, very appreciative of the fact that you could be with us this morning. Brother, I want to jump right into the situation with the abortion issue and what is going on with the Supreme Court right now. And I feel as though, and this is my opinion, but I feel as though there is a lot that is happening right now with regard to this issue that many do not understand. And to be quite honest, there's a lot going on that I don't understand about it. and really what the crux question is with regard to what is going on and with these recent oral arguments. So I thought I would just ask you at the outset to convey to our listeners a little bit about the basic question and what is going on in regard to federal government versus the state rights to govern here in this particular issue. Well, this is a question right now that is going to sweep the country as we get ready to hear what the Supreme Court's about to say. The Supreme Court has heard arguments on the abortion case. Two of them have come up. There's a number that are in the pipeline to come to the court, but two of them come up, one out of Texas and one out of Mississippi. And the question is three things. Number one, does the Constitution provide this right? Since Roe v. Wade, where they quote, and this is my language, they invented this right. Everyone has always said, well, it's not in the Constitution. The federal government should have no say in this. Well, they then brought this now again to the court because Roe v. Wade said, yes, there is an implied 14th Amendment right that we can control and make abortion legal nationwide. And so that's the first question. And during the oral arguments that went before the Supreme Court, that was where a lot of the questioning was. Where do you get this out of the United States Constitution? If you go back and read the decisions of Roe versus Wade and the Casey decision, and I know that for the listeners, everybody probably has heard of Roe versus Wade, but they don't realize they incredibly just invented a right. They said it's a penumbra right, which means there's something around the 14th amendment that should give the government this power. No one ever thought that power was there. No one understood it to be there, but now some 50 years ago they did this. And so this is the first thing the court's going to have to decide. The second thing is in deciding it, are they going to keep it and just leave it where it is? Are they going to adjust it and say, Well, under Roe v. Wade, where they broke down, especially with Casey, the trimesters. And so is this going to be, are we going to just adjust it some or are we going to eliminate it all together and it will all go back to the states? And the listeners need to understand that if the Supreme Court says this right does not exist in the Constitution, it now goes back to each individual state. So there will be a 50 state legal tapestry. Each state can decide whether they want to have it, if they do have it, under what grounds, if they eliminate it, under what grounds, and we will go on a state by state basis nationwide. That's what's before the court right now. The third thing the court has to decide is what precedent are we going to set down? There's no question a precedent was established 50 years ago. And boy, a lot of the argument before the Supreme Court was on the power of precedent. Our whole judiciary rests on a thing that legally is called stare decisis. That just means we decided it once and now here we're going to stay consistent with what we've decided. That's the case law build up to it. And so where is this going to play out? And the justices are saying, Many of them, boy, this 50 years, we cannot undo this. That's the liberal justices. The three of them are really pushing that. The others are saying, no, we think we need to be adjusted. Or if we've got a bad decision, we should eliminate it. That's what the Supreme Court is deciding. And I want to beg your listeners, please pray. Last Friday, after the oral arguments and everything that were done before, the judges meet. And the case has been decided. Now they're doing all the negotiation. They get together, all of them together, and they start deciding how they're going to vote. And they try to influence each other. And then they start all of the massive work of writing the decisions. And how many will there be for it? How many will be against it? And what are the decisions? How are they going to read? And so a tremendous amount of work. We're anticipating this will come out and we'll know where the court stands in June, just ahead of the elections. And this is a momentous, momentous thing. And I beg your listeners, pray. Now is the time to ask God. If you believe, as I do, that abortion is the taking of a life, that there is life in the womb, according to scripture and according to medical science, I mean, How can you go back on all that science has now brought forward about it? Amen, for sure. We need to pray. We need to pray that these justices, from the oral arguments right now, they kind of settled out. No one quite knows where some of them will go. And a real pivot in this is going to be Justice Roberts, the Chief Justice. Where is his head in this? I've been wrong so many times on what we thought the court was going to do. All the prognosticators have been, Brother Lively. They just say, well, we try to understand what we can from their questions, but sometimes their questions can lead you astray. So what I tell everybody to do is take nothing for granted at this point. Pray. The one thing I know is God answers prayer. The other thing I'm positive about is when you talk about the millions and millions of babies that we have aborted in this country, it has to be heartbreaking to God. And how would God's people not be heartbroken over what breaks the heart of the Savior? Brother, that is so well put. I was just thinking as you were elaborating on the various points that the Supreme Court is facing, and certainly those are all monumental decisions even among themselves, even each point that they must consider. And I thought about just, as you mentioned, the overall pervading attitude that has existed for almost 50 years based on this ungodly, unprincipled decision that came out in the early 70s, and now we have had to, quote, live with it for these almost half a century now. and to undo this. I know I can go back in Scripture, and I know how that in Israel, Israel served Baal for many a year, and then somebody stood up and had God's mind, and Baal was put out of Israel. And they returned to God for a period of time until the Baal worship and everything crept in once again. And so we have had to live under this for, again, almost 50 years. And I know our prayer is that God would absolutely turn the hearts of these Supreme Court justices against this, and never mind what has preceded us. I know that they are fighting among probably themselves right now, but brother, you make an excellent point that we need to pray that God would move upon the hearts of these people. Brother, as far as the decision, and you mentioned, again, yourself, you cannot prognosticate what is going to come out of the court. We think we understand it. We think we've got a solid decision, and it goes completely 180 degrees opposite. In your experience of what the past has brought with regard to some of these questions that have come out, for instance, just the elimination of it altogether, what do you think would be the potential for that aspect of things? My personal opinion, and that is what I personally would like to have happen. Let me make sure that your listeners understand that. Absolutely. Yes. I believe it should absolutely not be legal. Okay. That, um, I mean, it's not right. It was never right. And it's not legal legally and morally. I mean, the scriptures are so clear about life from the Lord. But if you were to ask me where I think having listened to these arguments and read what other learned people on it think, I think that they are going to overturn Roe v. Wade, but they're going to adjust it. They're going to adjust it. I don't think they're going to eliminate it all the way. I think three of the justices of the nine are leaning towards eliminating it all the way, and at least a portion of it will go back to the states. I think they're going to split it up some. Now, how that will happen, I don't know. One prior time, I practice law now. half a century for 52 years. And in this, we had the votes to overturn Roe v. Wade once before on the Supreme Court, and we had a case that was going to decide it, and everybody thought it was going to be overturned. At that last moment when the decision came out, we lost. And we lost because of the justice on the court, Sandra Day O'Connor, who was the first woman on the Supreme Court a woman that was considered very conservative, put there by President Reagan. He was President Reagan's choice, she was to be on the court, and she flipped, and she admitted she flipped. We've been right up to this precipice before, and it did not come out. So I think they're going to break it up. Some will go back to the states. but I don't think they're going to eliminate it altogether. That's my personal opinion, although what I'd really love to see God do is eliminate it altogether. Amen. That would be certainly many, many an answer to prayer for folks from across this nation, that we would see that absolutely overturned. Well, folks, certainly, as Brother Gibbs has already elaborated on this, that we need to be praying certainly that God would move upon the hearts of these folks in the Supreme Court, our Supreme Court justices, and certainly the battle that rages. And I think of counselor, the halls of justice across this land, and they have been so awry when it comes to the various opinions coming out of these various courts and the various levels across the country. and how one part of the nation thinks one way, another part of the nation thinks another way, and certainly this is an issue that has been so divisive with regard to our nation, and certainly the moral fabric of our country, but we would all love to see that God would grant our pleas concerning this, and that life once again would be valued in the sight of our nation as a whole. And we certainly need to pray for that. I want to change subjects now for a moment, and this certainly is a subject that is right in our face every day practically, and it is the matter of the vaccine mandates and what is being pushed with regard to against churches, against individuals. against private sector, against public sector situations and whatnot. And I know, Counselor, first of all, let me ask you, I know you've probably had a myriad of calls about this one situation, have you not? Well, we've had thousands. One of the things that amazes me is one morning we had 250 calls before noon on this subject, but our ministry has been absolutely inundated, and we're honored and honored to respond to these calls and talk to these people about this issue. This is a hotbed issue. It's been picked up by all of the radio outlets and TV outlets in the country, and they keep it fired up every single day. And what people need to understand is there's two questions here. Number one is, what about the vaccine? Is it effective and should Christians take it? That's not what's at the forefront right now. What's at the forefront is the mandate. Even if you're pro getting the vaccine, does the government have the right to force this under the conditions they're trying to do it? That's the issue that's creating so much contention. the need of the vaccine and that aspect of things is being pushed from an almost, if you don't get it, you're not loving your neighbor as yourself. And I've heard that propagated from the present governor of New York, and I know others have tried to jump on that bandwagon and tried to push it from that aspect. I'm reading something from, I received a notification this morning. Just yesterday, a federal judge blocked the shot mandate for federal contractors nationwide in the state of Georgia. And U.S. District Judge Stan Baker, and this is what he wrote, He said the court acknowledges the tragic toll that the COVID-19 pandemic has wrought throughout the nation and the globe. And certainly, I mean, we personally know of people that have suffered because of this particular pandemic. However, even in times of crisis, he writes, this court must preserve the rule of law and ensure that all branches of government act within the bounds of their constitutionality granted to the authorities in these particular branches. And I say amen to that because, councilors, you well know that is, again, the basic question is forcing something from the executive branch that is trying to be pushed on every aspect of this nation, private and public. Yeah, and please understand, they've gone a whole step beyond where we initially thought they would go, and that's why I'm telling Christians, pray about this. When this came out, the question was, does the government have the right to push and put a consequence on this? In other words, you lose your job if you don't get it. You can't be employed if you don't get it. There's some type of a penalty. Now they've gone further saying, we have the right to mandate it and we can make it criminal if you don't get it. That's another whole step. And so one of the things that we're warning people about, even if you say, no, I've got the vaccines and I'm for it, it doesn't matter. Does the government have that power? And absolutely most Christians are saying, no, that power should not be rested in the hands of the government. and that's where the conflict is right now. Where are they, I'm talking about the federal government, especially the executive branch right now, which is where this appears to be coming from, where do they get the basis of forcing this specifically to make it a criminal act? Are they utilizing the Attorney General? Is he conscripting some sort of a case law basis that he is pushing this? Or is this just almost like going back to the Roe v. Wade and just saying that it is a color of law and it's implied and therefore we're going to try to push it from that aspect? How are they basing their push on? Well, number one, there's been a massive constitutional breakdown, and we have warned about this for a considerable period of time. The Constitution is clear. The only body of government that has the right to make law is the legislature. When you read the Constitution, the Supreme Court doesn't have the right, the executive power of the president doesn't have the right, only Congress has the right. But then, when they came up with some of these ideas of emergency powers, where the President would sign executive orders and started doing some of this, we warned that is very dangerous because it's blatantly unconstitutional and we should never have the Presidents doing that. Well, everybody was against it when the party they didn't like was doing it. But when the party they voted for did begin to do it, then all of a sudden these powers became okay. And you'll remember under the prior president, when the president would stand up, he'd sign it and then he'd hold it up and show the cameras his signature on the paper. That was all done outside the legislature. He's saying, I have the right as president to make these laws. That's where this now is coming from. The Constitution does not give the president the right to do that, only under very extreme emergencies. And then it has to go immediately back to Congress for Congress to decide what to do with the law. And so what we warn people about is we are in a constitutional breakdown. If the president has these powers, we have a precedent that can absolutely almost be a dictator. And that was true under the prior president. That's true under this president. And by the way, the numbers of these executive orders that they're doing just keep mounting. And so that's where this has come from. Now, where do they get the power? The police power is what everybody points to. And the police power is a power that as Christians, we believe in. We believe government should have some police powers. very common ones. Somebody comes to your church and starts shooting a gun and killing or hurting people. Watch how quick we call the police and say, we want the government to come out here and help us stop this. We believe if there's a fire, we call the government, come help us put this fire out. Okay. Those are traditional police powers. And we, as Christians, have supported that. We believe in supporting our firemen and our police, and we thank our city councils for the things they do to help keep us safe. That's the power base under which all of this is there. But it goes a whole step beyond when they start saying, we have the power to punish you if you won't put a vaccine in you, if you won't do this. Now, that's become extremely complicated because back in 1908, this goes back over 100 years, the Supreme Court decided a decision when they were having the smallpox breakouts in the country. And people said, we want people to vaccinate their children because we're having outbreaks of smallpox that are killing, literally wiping whole school districts out with this disease that they were dying from it. And that came up and the Supreme Court said, yes, the government under these types of emergencies can do that. That's not what we're dealing with right now. What we're dealing with right now is this is something that's a very serious disease. I mean, precious people have lost their lives over this, this mandate, because what's happened is we're not sure what the government's power in this is. And they have a suspicion about these vaccines. And yet people are still coming down with COVID. And so it's become a real judicial nightmare. What we've told people to do is be sure, number one, that you consult with your physician. People shouldn't do anything medically without talking to their personal doctor. But number two, pray. If the government has this power, where they can say we can put something in your body because we've decided not your doctor, not you. We've decided that's a whole different step. And people have asked us, do you think this is, you know, the mark of the beast or something like that? No, I don't because the beast isn't dictating this at this point, but this is sure the precursor coming up to it. I mean, if government has these powers where they can make this happen, no one dreamed that they would have that ability to dictate that way. Not in America. Not in America for sure. Brother, I think back to early 2020, back when this COVID was first promulgated upon us from the news standpoint, and how much has occurred since then, and just the degradation of the government as a whole, and just continuing to break down our Constitution, and almost overnight has become almost a dictatorship. And certainly our God is not blind when it comes to this. and we are commanded as Christians. I'm looking here, as we finish up, Counselor, I do want to, from your newsletter, I'm reading a portion of it. It says, the Christian has a duty to God, his reasonable service to accomplish his purpose. With God strengthening us, enabling us, and promising to fight our battles for us, what is our excuse? The Scriptures state in 2 Timothy 2, verses 3 and 4, Thou therefore endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And certainly, Counselor, we have been chosen for such a time as this to stand in the gap and to be faithful in whatever and however God chooses to use us, be it a voice such as yours with regard to Christian Law Association, be it the Weed Among the Tares, a media outlet, whatever the case may be, God has called us for a purpose to stand. And I'm so very thankful that we have this opportunity to convey to those that are listeners and that will listen to this podcast in future days to come that God use it to help buoy us to stand the way we need to stand. Councilor, it has certainly been our privilege to have you on board this morning and to admonish us concerning these two issues of the abortion issue, specifically the Jackson Women's Health out of Mississippi and of course this mandate for vaccines. I know personally that we have folks in our own church here and we know that they have faced this question of losing their jobs because of the mandate situation. Just a closing comment, if we have people facing that and you admonish them to talk to their doctor, are there any other steps that you could recommend to them concerning that particular question? I would recommend two things. Number one, be careful on social media and on the media that's On TV and places like that, there's massive inconsistencies of information coming out. After they've talked with their physician, they need to settle this in their heart before the Lord. We must remember something. As Christians, our responsibility is to please God and honor His word. That's our responsibility as a child of God, no matter what that cost is. It's hard for me to imagine in America that we're going to pay the cost. We're watching people have to pay But that is what the Lord commands us to do. In other words. We are here as his representatives Representing Jesus Christ. Amen. And so I tell everybody settle this in your heart you want to talk number one with your pastor and get spiritually settled then your doctor and And then you will have to make a decision. I'm watching people that say, I don't want to lose my job. I like my career job. I've done well at it and I don't want to lose it. But I simply must honor my conscience before God. Amen. That's where we're at. But make sure you have that settled with your pastor that you prayed with him and sought godly counsel with your pastor at your church. And then make sure you've talked with your physician. and guiding their input on it, so that you can say before the Lord, I've sought godly counsel, and here I stand. Well, David Gibbs, it's been an honor to have you, sir. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us this morning. It has been a blessing to have you, and I trust that God's richest blessings will be upon the Christian Law Association, and our listeners would continue to pray for you, brother, and for the work there. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Thank you for letting us be with you. We covet your prayers. And I want to tell everybody one thing. The Lord is all powerful. He's in control. What a privilege to serve God in such a blessed nation as America. Amen. Amen. God bless you, my brother. God bless you, my friend. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Well, I want to thank you for joining us this morning. Certainly a privilege to have attorney David Gibbs with us with the Christian Law Association. And I trust the information conveyed here this morning has been a blessing and a help to you. That's the purpose of Weed Among the Tares. And we trust that you will pray for us here, that God would use us to convey these truths. God bless you.