Actually quite a bit longer, and so let's turn over there. And you go down to verse 8. And so Deuteronomy 5.8 says, You shall not make for yourself a carved image, any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them." Okay, so that's the part that's in the handout, but you can see that there's some more things associated with that commandment. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments. All right. Now, the first question I have here is just looking at maybe some more context here from the rest of the scriptures associated with this commandment. And so let's turn back a page, or maybe just it's on the previous page, to Deuteronomy 4, 15 through 19. So Deuteronomy 4, 15 through 19. And if someone would like to read that for us. that you saw in all form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the mist and fire. Beware lest you act corruptly by making a card reading for yourself in the form of any figure, the likeness of a male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps underground, the likeness of any fish and beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven. And when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the hosts of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them. Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole. Nope, nope, that's good, that's good, till 19. All right, so it says there that you should beware of making these images where it says there. Now what's the, in this passage, what's the reasoning for that? So it says, beware, so don't make any images. And then it says, and when you look at the heavens, things in the heavens, don't bow down to them. All right, so then what's the reason? Why in this passage does it say that that's the way we should act? See that hand? Yes, right. So so the reason out of Deuteronomy 4 is because God didn't show up in a form, right? There's no there isn't a form there that God shows up in when when he spoke to Israel and therefore we ought not to. Therefore, we ought not to make them, yes. Okay, so Bob asks, what about Romans 1? I think Romans 1 is probably more geared to the first commandment. And the phrase that was reflected on is, they worship the creation rather than the creator, right? So that's a good point. How do we distinguish between the first commandment and the second commandment? So the first commandment says, here's your priority of the values. Here's the way, here's the order in which you should worship things. And the top thing that you should worship, the greatest value to any human being is God, right? So you should worship him ultimately. Now, so then how is the second commandment different from that? That's a good, that's an excellent question. Okay. The second question, the second commandment is getting, okay, if you have God as your God, and he is your highest value, the second commandment is getting at then, how are we going to worship him? You see the difference? So, so one set tells you what to worship. The other one tells you the way in which he's going to be worshiped, right? So then so you could come in here and you could say I I believe God is the highest value I believe God objectively is the The entity who ought to be worshipped and what I've done because of that is I brought I'm gonna bring you this great big statue of I don't know what right I who knows, of St. Joseph. I'm gonna put it right down here and we're all going to use this statue of St. Joseph to worship God by, right? And so what the second commandment is saying is don't do that, right? Don't make any likeness of male or female, that's Deuteronomy 4, right? And you don't do that because God didn't show up in a likeness. All right? Good. thoughts or questions? David. Ok, so David says, what about the, what about the, so Moses is out tending sheep and all of a sudden he sees this bush that's on fire and it's not being consumed. And so he says, huh, let's go over and have a look. So he goes over there and has a look and when he gets there he the angel of the Lord speaks from out of that. Is that related to this? And I would say yes, in the same way that, well, at least the flame part, I think we can stand on pretty good ground here with Deuteronomy, right? So God was, when he was on Mount Sinai, there were things that you could see. There were clouds, there were all that kind of stuff there, and you could see those things, and therefore, but God says you didn't see any form of him. So yeah, for the angel of the Lord, probably, Partly because it appeared to Moses, because it appeared to Moses individually, so that would be, and then partly because of Deuteronomy 4 with respect to the flame, right. So, okay, let's see. Along that line, okay, along that line, in the Old Testament, how do we, so what does worship in the Old Testament look like? Okay, so sacrifices, so can you see those? Yes, you can see those. What are some other things that you can see in the Old Testament with respect to worship? Yes, okay, good, you see assembly of people, especially at festival times. You see priests who have certain garments on, right? Good. There's a tabernacle. The preparing of the sacrifice is right. So there's all these things you can see, and in the Old Testament dispensation, the Old Testament administration of the covenant, there were all these things to be seen, but none of this functioned as something in which you said, oh, that's what God looks like, or that you were to bow down and serve in that sense before. What would have been the center, if there was a place you would think maybe where God would have put an image of himself, where might he have done that? In the Ark of the Covenant, right? Or at the Ark of the Covenant. And the only thing you have at the Ark of the Covenant, right, is the angels who are over the Ark, which are representative of the angels who would be around God, but there's nothing there representative of what God looks like. So we're not supposed to use any image to represent God, to worship him by. There's an empty seat. It's called the mercy seat, or it's called the footstool of God's throne. There's a couple of different images like that. It's interesting that in the Holy of Holies, where the cherubim are and the ark was, the ark seems to represent the things that God has done, rather than God deciding. It represents God, but it's represented by the things he has done. The budding rod of Aaron, and there's a piece of manna, and it seems like it's represented by how God carries it. Okay, so David was mentioning that what you find in the ark, so you find the word of God, you find the Aaron's rod, you find, what's the third one? The manna, right? So those are things that all ways in which God has manifested that he saved his people. But again, even when, and of course, the only person who has access to that and only one time a year is high priest, right? So, and the high priest is never called to bow down to those particular things, right, or to use those things as a means by which, or just not bow, to bow down to them is probably the easy way to put it. Okay. Right. Right. Okay, yes, yes, so. you're not to make an image of anything in heaven, you're not to make an image of anything on the earth, you're not to make an image of anything under the earth, right? So it wouldn't matter whether it was, so and then Mary Jane's question, okay, why can't we make an image of cherubim? Okay, part of the answer to that is because you're very clearly commanded to do that, okay, right? So then that one reason is that. So you make some curtains in the temple, God says, put some pomegranates or some representative pomegranates on there. Okay, so you got told to do that, you go do that, right? But it doesn't say, but what you don't do is you don't bow down to the pomegranates and say that they represent God, or you don't bow down to the cherubim and say that they represent God in all of his fullness, right? Good, yes? I'm saying that the ark is commanded by God, where all these others, Yes, yes, right. So then the, the, so, uh, the, the general sense of the second commandment is how are we going to worship God? And the answer to that question is in whatever way God tells us, right. And only in the way God tells us. And we're not going to imagine things. We're not, okay. So let's, let's go back to this. Um, is it, Is it ungodly for you to make an image of an angel? Can somebody paint an angel or sculpt an angel today? Yeah, yeah, you can make pictures of things in heaven, you can conceive of things, make pictures in heaven, or you can make pictures of cows or make pictures of fish, right? You could make or sculpt them. So you can do that. Now, okay, so, and what I'm getting at here is that, so God's commandment It's one of the ways you can think of God's commandment is there's nowhere in the Bible where it says you're prohibited to do that, right? So you can do that, all right? But what the second commandment is telling you is don't bring those things in here and worship God and worship them as representing God, as telling us something about God, right? So that's what we should not do, right? But I don't know. It seems like you're still doing something of having. And you're guessing in some ways. I mean, we have some descriptions. Okay, no, no, no, you're right, you're right. So Diane mentions, okay, yeah, but what if I make it and I worship it at home? No, you're not allowed to do that either. I was just, one specific example was don't make it and bring it here. Another specific example is don't make it and worship it anywhere, right? Don't worship it any, you know, you should not make those things and worship, bow down and worship them as God, right? You should not do that. And you shouldn't do that out of anything. You shouldn't do that superstitiously with anything, right? So. Okay, what, what guidance do I have to somebody who, who says they, they are just an aid to my worship? Um, all right. So then, um, that, uh, yeah, that, that gets to a very, um, uh, uh, I'm gonna make a discrimination here. Uh, let's see if you, um, Look at, look at number three, look at question number three there. So, all right. So now we're just, I'm just going to take David's question and just bring it just to the public worship, right? Okay. So in a public worship facility, if you came in here today and there was a banner hanging in here and that banner has pictures, anybody ever been to a church where you have a banner and has pictures on it? Okay. Are you walking out and saying, I am not going in there? I never I never have at least I haven't seen any pictures where I thought we're violating this commandment it might be theoretically possible if the pastor told us all to bow down to the banner then I would Take my family and leave right but so I'm okay with I'm okay with that. Just you know, I'm mentally making that picture Okay, how about a cross? Okay, yeah, let's not do that. Let's not bow down, okay. Okay, we're not bowing down before. Okay, so now let's go back to David's question. So David's question said what? What if I use it as an aid to worship? Right, okay, so now I'm looking at it and I say, that reminds me of what Jesus did on the cross, right? Okay, would you object to that, right? So that's, I think, what we're getting at. Okay, so actually, for a time, the session here removed the cross. Because we had somebody actually tell us that. They told us, they were here, they were here before the worship service, they were meditating upon the cross, and they were using it as a means by which to communion with God. And so we took it out. And so then later on upon further consideration, we put it back. Okay, so, so now I have to do a bit of a mind experiment with you. Let me go back to my banner. Up on the banners, no pictures, right? Yeah, up on the banner, though, is a is a Bible verse. Right, and the Bible verse maybe says Christ died for sinners. Right, okay, so, look at that and you go, C-H-R-I-S-T, right, so those are, there are some symbols there, and you look at that banner and you go, huh, that, those are symbols, and I use those symbols to meditate upon what Christ has done for me. Got any objection to that? I mean, this is the kind of, right, so the question is, I'm just trying to run the mind experiment here with you. And again, I don't have any problem with that. That's right, so I can pick up a Bible and do that, right? So if it's up on the banner, I can do that. Okay, so now, let's suppose you're doing this in China. Okay, now in China, what does your banner look like? Well, yeah, maybe you do have a picture, right? It looks like pictographic symbols. Or let's go back, you know, even before that. What if the language of your culture was hieroglyphics? Okay. And so now you go, all right, so then let's, I don't know that is, I don't know anything about Chinese or any Asian languages, but let's suppose you saw, you know, all these Chinese symbols and the Chinese symbol for Jesus is a cross. And there it is right there. It's a cross. Okay. Are you allowed to use that on the banner in China? Again, I would say, sure, because that's what that symbol says. Jesus died on the cross for me, and I'm interpreting that by the Word of God. I'm worshipping on that basis. I think part of the thought process when we said, OK, you could have a cross here in the church was somewhat similar to that. That is, you're not going to come down here and you're not going to bow down to it. You don't think it has any power in and of itself as a piece of metal. But what you do is you, when you see it, it stimulates words that you've heard in the word of God. And so that's kind of, so that's part of my answer to that question. John. The significance of the jar of manna being in the ark is that God, not just that God provided for his people bread in the wilderness, but that man does not live by bread alone but by the word of God. Yes. Yes, yes, certainly the Word of God is, okay, so Jonathan says, he mentioned that the manna in the ark, one of the things that it's supposed to do for you is not just to tell you that God provides, but also that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word, right, that proceeds from the mouth of God. So the way in which we live is the Word. So I think if these, so, all right, So what I would say is does this minimalistic symbol, in this case a cross, does that, is the reason or the way in which you are worshiping God, is it bringing you back to the word of God? So that's what I would say on that. Okay, but that is the Roman Catholic, one of the Roman Catholic justifications for having Other things in the church where they have statues and this kind of thing that they say, okay, this is the means by which I worship God. Okay? So, I mean, all right, so what are we talking about? Okay, let's suppose it's a statue of Mary. Okay, I think that's pretty easy. I can exclude that because the word of God's telling me I'm not gonna do that, right? So. Okay, yeah, so how about a crucifix, right? Okay, so, you know, okay, Charlie, you're okay with this, but what about that, right? Okay, well, part of that, I mean, again, you know, all right, I'm just gonna have to do some of this kind of thinking. There would be two issues with that, I think, two, well, two issues with, two issues with that. Okay, the first thing is, what's the crucifix telling me? What's the theology of the crucifix? Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. Maybe I should do this. I'm sorry. I should do a definition first. What is there? Okay. In my mind, as I'm asking you that question, I am thinking Charlie Perkins is thinking there is a cross and there is a crucifix and those are two different things. Okay. A crucifix is not a cross. Okay. What's the difference between a crucifix and a cross? Okay. Yes. One of Jesus isn't on one of them, right? Right, he has risen, he is alive, and he's not being sacrificed anymore. He's not dying anymore. He died once for all, that's done. So to hang Jesus on a cross, Protestant theology would say, that's not a good way to do that. Okay, so that's one thing about a crucifix where I would say you don't want to use that because the representation in that case is saying something false or contradictory to what the words are saying. Yes. Yes. So Bob just mentions that, again, in the Roman Catholic Church, when they observe communion, that it is an actual sacrifice of Christ that's going on there, right? And that's out of accord with the Word. Okay, so, and then I said there's one other issue with the crucifix, and this would also be an issue with the cross. So we're all sitting at men's breakfast one day and this guy comes up and he goes, oh, you guys, you know, you look like you're Christians. Yes, he goes, well, I'm a Catholic. I said, oh, okay. So then tell us a little bit about your faith. I mean, he's just standing there and he came up to us. So out of his pocket, he pulls this cross and he goes, and I take this everywhere with me. And this is, I mean, basically what he's saying is when you ask him, tell me about the gospel, he pulls this wooden cross out of his pocket. Okay, that is that is a violation of Second Commandment. Okay, that that's that's not good or there is a story about a young Spanish guy. He's got a crucifix around his neck, right? Somebody offers him a half a pound of silver for it, right? No, how about a pound of silver? No, he goes. I wouldn't take thousands and thousands of pounds of silver for it. Okay. I love you friend, you're messed up, right? That's not right. Now you are, now you're, okay, so, or at least probing a little bit, why not? Well, I mean, that's the question you wanna ask, right? So diamonds is, yeah, because you're trusting in it. Yeah, so that's the question. Do you think because you've got this thing around your neck, that's why you're going to heaven? Right, that's, now you're talking about, see the way in which God is worshiped is critical there in sorting that out, right. Yes, yes, if you're using them superstitiously for protection, for those kinds of things, right. Now you've crossed the, now you're violating the second commandment at that point. Good, yes, so Rob mentions, where is your faith in things that are seen, is your faith in things that are unseen, right? And faith is the issue, that is, what generates faith, what is faith, those kinds of things. Is God saying, I'm going to give you pictures to generate faith? No, what God said is, I'm going to give you the, I shouldn't say that yet, no. I'm going to give you some pictures, and you're going to use those to generate faith, because those pictures are the ones I've given you. But don't go outside of that, okay? So now I'm getting into question two, right? And I haven't even finished question one yet. But of course, these are the kind of questions that come up here. Yeah, let me do that just because, okay, so what images of God has God given to his people? Genesis 127, anybody want to, without even turning there, maybe you want to? All right, I'll just let you turn. Okay, so you have male and female who are created in God's image, right? Okay, now, according to the second commandment, what do you not do with these people who are committed, who are made in God's image? You don't worship them, good, and you don't make any images of them to worship God by, right? So you don't do either one of those things. All right, now, but can you look at people and learn about God, understand what God wants you to do? Yes, I think so. Those images of God can teach you some things which can lead you to worship God, for instance. What's like if you see a statue of God? Yes, yes. Right, so Bob mentions you could have a statue of an athlete and it could remind you that God has given that person particular talents, right? Yes, okay. Well, I think the main thing that we see from people is that God has given people a soul. So for instance, one of the things that's, so when Romans 1 says there are things that are known about God that are intuitive, they're innate, they're just obvious to you even without having to rationally work through them. One of those is the fact that you have a soul and you see other people have a soul and that helps you to understand who God is and what God's like. But again, you don't, okay, so those tell you some things, but you don't make images of them, that kind of thing, to worship. Yes. Lost people call out to God all the time, right. They exclaim, yes, they make exclamations about God all the time, absolutely. That's third commandment, we'll get to that. All right, how about Colossians 1.15? Colossians 1.15. Okay, so Colossians 115 says he is the image of the invisible God. Who are we talking about there? Okay, so Christ is the image of the invisible God. All right, so then how is it that you and I have access to the image of the invisible God in Christ? Through the word, that's the only way, right? Well, the next answer will also amplify on that just a touch, but in general, the access that we have to the invisible word, to him who is the image of the invisible God, is through the word, not through a statue of him, right? Not through a picture of him, right? And so... Yes, yes. Okay, so then, and then lastly, 1 Corinthians 11. And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, this is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me. In the same way, also, he took up the cup after supper, saying, this cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me. For as often as you eat bread and drink the cup, you proclaim Okay, so here are some pictures, if you will. Here are some things that you can see, you can taste, you can smell. Okay, so there are those things, and how would you describe them? And you are to use them in order to remember, to do these things in remembrance of Jesus, right? So you are to worship and to remember what he has done through them, okay? And again, there's a kind of worship there, and that is to remember. There's not the kind of worship, again, where you would bow down to those elements, right? You're using them to remember what He has done. And so, why is it okay to observe the Lord's Supper if we're not allowed to make images? I'm just looking for the easy answer. Because it's commanded, right? Because the Bible tells me so, right? I'm not looking for anything real profound there. Right, so God tells me to use that, and therefore it's going to benefit me. Yes, right. It is a blessing to us because we've done it in remembrance of what God calls us to, what Christ has called us to. Okay, good. Okay, so now. having looked at that. Oh, and so there are three images, you could maybe even say four images that we have of God. We have men, right, who are made in the image of God. We have Christ, who came to earth in the image of the invisible God. We have the sacraments And maybe if you wanted to add one, angels. So you have angels also, but they don't manifest themselves to us. So those are all images that God has given in history is probably a better way to put that question than given to his people. All right, how about Psalm 115? Let's go back up there and look at that. So what does Psalm 115 tell us that helps us to work through the implications of the second commandment? And there we'll just read through verses two through nine. We should say, where is their God? Our God is in the heavens. He does all that He pleases. Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak. Eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear. Nose, but they do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel. Feet, but do not walk. And they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them, so do all who trust in them, or Israel, Okay, good. So here's Israel facing its enemies. And what do Israel's enemies say in that situation? Where is their God? Because we can't see him. And so then what does the psalmist tell Israel to do in that situation? Tells Israel to trust in the Lord. And then he compares Israel's God with their gods. And what are their gods like? They can't see, they can't hear, they can't do anything, which means they are dead, right? And then it says what? And those people out there are just like them. They are dead, right? In any reasonable sense of that concept, right? They are walking dead people. Anybody who follows an idol, that's what they're like. So then, why can't you draw a picture of Jesus? Because it is. It can't talk. It can't see. It can't handle, right? That's why you can't make a picture of Jesus. That's why you can't make a statue of Jesus. Because it's, okay, because it does not reflect who he is as not only alive, but also the giver of life, right? That picture can't do that. It's not telling you who Jesus is, right? Okay, so then Habakkuk 2.18 and 20, we'll give you one more Slant on that. What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes his speechless idols. Okay, good. So what is, when you make this image, what is it doing to you? According to Habakkuk 2. Exactly, it's lying to you. So when you look at it and you worship God in that way, that image is telling you those same kinds of things that we saw in Psalm 115 or in Habakkuk 2, that God is dead, that God cannot. That's why you can't make this image because it cannot fully represent who God is and what He does and those kinds of things. Another way to get at that is one of the reasons you can't make a picture of Jesus, you ought not to make a picture of Jesus, is because He is fully man and fully God. So if you make a picture of him, you can't because the picture cannot encompass, it can't reflect the truth of who he is. And in particular, the scripture tells us it's the life and the life-givingness of God that is in particular what he is jealous about, that he cares about. Bob. Yes, yes, God could make, right, God could make out of stones children of Israel. Right, okay, yes. And, okay, Dave. Can you see if there's any danger that we have? I'm thinking of young children here. You know, there's the Gnostic idea that Jesus just was a spiritual being that didn't exist in the flesh. And I think there is some, you know, when we teach children Bible stories and we don't show them Jesus walking around at the Sea of Galilee, ministering to people, We can create this sense, this Gnostic sense that when the disciples looked at Jesus, they were looking at a man. Looking at something physically representative in the world. Yes. Yes, David's asking, is there a danger of entering into a Gnosticism, that is that Jesus, so in getting an idea that Jesus only kind of appeared as a man, or that, right, or that we don't take his manness seriously enough. And the only thing I would say there, and I think the only defense that we would have is, is how do we know Jesus was fully man? Because the Bible tells me, right? So I've always got to go back to that. I don't know Jesus as a man because I can draw him on a page. I know Jesus as a man because the B-I-B-L-E, right? I mean, that's the reason I'm not a Gnostic. This is. Not because a Sunday school curriculum has him drawn, right? I know he met with people at the Sea of Galilee because this Bible tells me so. I know that he was born of a virgin because this Bible tells me so. I know that he ate, and he was hungry, and he had pain, and all this kind of stuff because this Bible tells me so. That's the only way to know. I don't want, actually, I don't want to teach my children that the reason you know Jesus is really human is because you saw a picture of him. Because that's not your ultimate authority. If it was, I'd have him in the back, right? The Holy Spirit would have drawn a picture for somebody and we'd be passing that down. I mean, literally, right? That's how I would argue that. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes. Right. imagining a physical description in my mind, which includes a man. Right, right. So David says, well, I'm going to, okay, so does that mean, is what I'm saying, mean that you are not allowed to form an image of a man in your mind? And I would say, no, no, absolutely, you are supposed to, I believe, form an image in your mind of a man. You are supposed to form an image. So, for instance, Revelation would be another good one, right? So you go to Revelation 3 and 4 and you actually get a picture, right? I don't think that's given to you so that you say, oh, I'm going to keep my mind blank and I'm only going to let letters come through it. You're supposed to draw a picture in your mind with those words, right? But what I would say is, the means by which you draw the picture is this, or this. Either a preacher is preaching this to you, or you're either reading Revelation 4, or you're hearing the preaching of Revelation 4. If I pull the slide up and say, and this is the picture, you need to throw things at me. That's not legitimate. That would be my, I'm sorry. Bob, just, so my, that would be my, yeah. I was gonna say to go along with David, really, again, that's God's blessing to us to be able to put that image of Christ walking on the water, you know, and being by a fountain, right? Yes. Yes, yes, that is a blessing. And I think that you're meant to enjoy that blessing, and the way to enjoy that blessing, what I was trying to say, the way to enjoy that blessing is by absorbing it through the words, right? So we have, yes, so we have language that draws images, and we're supposed to use the language to draw the image, not an image to draw the image. That's probably all my brain does is stick figures, so that may be all I get, but yes. Good. that line, okay, so let me just say this, two things. Number one, our Great Commission Publications, which we use for Sunday School material, does not draw pictures of Jesus. It doesn't have pictures of Jesus. But we have ministers in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, so we have elders in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church who are okay with pictures of Jesus. So, this is a disputed issue among elders, I just want to say that, right? This isn't just I mean, I'm giving you the only elder whose opinion I have, but there are other elders who have other opinions and in the OPC. Doug, do you have one? Yes, yes, so now you're getting into, good, good. So Doug makes a comment about strange fire, and so that adds into the discussion about the regulative principle, but I'll need another day for that. But yes, that's an excellent point. God is very particular about how he would be worshiped. Yes, excellent. All right, I'm way over time, so let me pray for us. Lord, we love you. We thank you so much for your grace to us in Christ. We pray for your blessings to us as we meditate upon these things. We pray that we would apply them correctly. We pray that you would give us wisdom, and we pray for this in Christ's name.