25 points, Alisa Brady, Fox News Radio. Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling is a live call-in radio program providing doctrinal dialogue, cultural commentary, and insightful interviews with some of today's foremost Christian authors and leaders. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. The goal of the church and the radio program is to seek the glory of God in the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of the saints by the ministry of the Word. For more information, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Here with today's edition of Knowing the Truth is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome into what will be our final broadcast for 2010, and it's certainly a pleasure to have you with us on the broadcast today. Had a number of interesting broadcasts, of course, throughout the year and even throughout this past week. Just on Tuesday of this week, did an interview with Brian Hedges about his book called Christ Formed in You. We're talking about biblical change, That was an interesting interview. And then yesterday, I was speaking with some folks from World Magazine, and then afterwards, the founder of an organization called the Cornwall Institute, or the Cornwall Alliance, I should say. And we were talking about biblical stewardship versus environmentalism. I actually broke that broadcast up into a couple of different pieces out on sermonaudio.com. I broke it into one entitled Stewardship vs. Environmentalism, which was the entire hour broadcast, but then I broke it in half and I took just the second half of the broadcast that I did with Dr. Beisner, the founder of the Cornwall Alliance. And I broke that into one and retitled it, Resisting the Green Dragon. And so you can listen to that. I attached it to a news story. And so if you go out to www.sermonaudio.com forward slash knowing the truth, you can listen to that. That's also available out on our knowingthetruth.org website as well. Just go to the audio section. By the way, I want to make sure that you're aware of that all of the broadcasts that we do are the MP3 audio file are available for them. I think the website has roughly around 3.2 million hits on the website. We also have, I believe it's somewhere around 160 some thousand downloads. The downloads now include the ability to download to your smartphone. So if you have an iPod Touch or an iPhone or an Android or a Blackberry or other smartphone mobile devices, we have the apps available for you to be able to download those things directly to your smartphone and then take Knowing the Truth radio program with you on the road. So I just want to make sure that you're aware of those tools that we have available for you out there on the www.knowingthetruth.org website. On today's broadcast, we're going to finish off the year with a very important discussion. We're going to talk about the idea of being appointed to preach. How do we assess the call to the ministry? You may be thinking about being a pastor yourself. You may be a seminary student. I work quite a bit with students that are in either Bible schools or seminary students and talk to them fairly often. And I found that, you know, I often ask, you know, what direction do you think you're going in? now that you're in Bible school, and many of them really don't know. They're not quite sure. And I've also found that many don't seem to know how that can be properly or biblically assessed. How do we know? Beyond just you saying, well, I have this feeling that, you know, God is calling me into the ministry, and therefore I'm going to just go ahead and do this. Is there a better way? Is there a more sure way that we can look at where that call can be assessed? That's what we're talking about today. And we're doing it with David Hegg. David is the pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Santa Clarita, California. He's also an adjunct professor at the Masters College. David was just recently with me on the program. You can listen to that discussion on our website. But we talked about the obedience option. We talked about the idea that God tells us what to do in his Word, and if we will do, if we'll submit to what he says, that we will bring greater good to ourselves and greater glory to God in doing that. And you can listen to our full discussion on that point today. This particular book that we're talking about today, as I mentioned, is the subject about being appointed to preach. And this is put out by Christian Focus Publishing. And so Christian Focus, www.christianfocus.com, that's christianfocus.com. You can get both of David's books out there at that website. And by the way, I am giving away copies of this book during our discussion today. Let's go right to the phone line. David, it's a great pleasure to have you back on the Knowing the Truth radio program. Thanks, Kevin. It's a pleasure for me to talk with you, and especially about my passion about preaching and God's appointment. Amen. It's such a glorious calling. I don't remember who it is attributed to as making this statement, but it says, if God has called you to preach, don't stoop to become a king. And so we should think of it very highly, right? Yeah. A great pastor and biblical expositor told me, Dave, if God calls you to preach, boy, don't step down to be president. So I guess he must have paraphrased a little differently for the American context. Exactly. Being void of a monarchy, that would probably be a good idea. Well, this is an interesting book. Alistair Begg doing the foreword for the book. I just recommend that to people, what he writes in there about the importance of the subject. But let me ask you directly, why did you write this book? What did you see that was taking place in modern evangelicalism today that motivated you to say, you know, this book really needs to be written? Yeah. As a young pastor myself, I was asked to be on the ordination council for our denomination in Southern California. So I had the opportunity to sit across the table from a number of young men who came out of seminary, or some who had never been to seminary, who wanted to become either licensed or ordained by the Evangelical Free Church, which was the denomination I was with at that point. And I was just amazed at how many of them seemed so Two things, they were ill-prepared, kind of academically and intellectually, for what I thought the rigors of preaching necessitated. But they also were unclear, really, you know, about the whole idea of call to ministry. And it really put us, as those who were examining them and going to confer ordination on them, it put us in a bad position because, as I grew up, I watched, and if a guy, you know, went to college and came back to the home church and said, hey, I think God wants me to be a pastor, God's called me to preach, it's like nobody could say anything against that. It's like the magic card. You play the I was called card, and now suddenly, regardless of whether you seem to have the skills to do it, of course we all knew they had to have a certain level of character, and they had to be compassionate, and they had to have some training. But in terms of the call, if somebody said they were called, then well, I guess you're called, and so we have to support you. And I just, you know, as I went through seminary myself and, and got a little sidetracked, went into the business world and then came back and got into, uh, as a pastor and an expositor, I just realized that, you know what, there are all kinds of guys around, and I hope your listeners will understand. I'm saying this with honesty and compassion. There are guys around who are pastoring churches who can't preach their way out of a paper bag. And a lot of people are thinking that's what, preaching is, or that's what pastoral leadership is. And I know that these guys are faithful, but I think there are some guys who have not genuinely been called. And I'd like to, at some point in this broadcast, kind of give my definition of what that is. They haven't been called, and they're trying to do something that they're just not gifted and called to do. And it just, it's so hard for them. It's frustrating for them. As you know, it frustrates their families, it frustrates their listeners, and eventually they end up... I mean, Kevin, I'm sure you know, as I do, scores of men who have been pastors for five, six, seven years and now are doing something else. And they look at God and they go, you know what happened? I wanted to be a leader in your church. I wanted to preach the good news and it didn't work. And I think sometimes... It has to do with what we're talking about on this broadcast. Well, I think it would be good for you to give that good working definition of being called at the beginning of the broadcast here. I just want to read a statement before you do that, kind of a disclaimer that you put here in the book. And I think it's pretty insightful that you list this, because although we're going to talk about what the Scripture says about calling, the fact is, as you were just articulating in some of your stories there, that I'm not quite sure people are really going to listen. And I'm not quite sure that it's really going to change the landscape out there. Unfortunately, you seem to acknowledge that by saying this in the book. My purpose in writing this book is not that I think I can change the world or even that I think solving the problems I see in ordination councils will put everything right and usher in revival. I merely want to encourage those involved with pastoral ministry to rethink the area of ordination. I offer a philosophy and a model of ordination that, if put into practice in some manner, I believe it will help our churches one at a time, one man at a time, to the glory of God. So it's not going to be a quick fix. And it's going to take somebody saying, you know, maybe we're not doing this right. I read this book, this guy, David Haig, and he lays out what the Scripture has to say about maybe we should consider what he says. Is that really what you're looking for? Yeah, exactly. And I really wrote this for people in the Church who are going to be looking for pastors, and for young men or old men, anybody, aged men, who is entering the ministry. Because I really believe that the ordination process has two goals, not just to seek out and affirm qualified men, but even greater in some respects, to protect the preaching office from those who are not called. And about two-thirds of the way through the book, I talk about the fact that if you're a young man and you're reading this, and you come to realize that, you know what? I'm not called. There is honor in not pursuing something to which you come to realize, I've not been drafted and thereby crafted by God. Don't pursue ordination. Don't pursue the pastoral ministry unless there's a reason to believe that the desire you have is from God. No, great point, and I like some of the illustrations that you use, and we'll certainly get to that. The one I'm referring to is the scanner at the airport. We'll talk about that in just a minute. It has a negative connotation today, but I think that even helps it fit the illustration even better. So we'll talk about that in just a second. Let's go ahead and give you that opportunity to give us a working definition of the idea of calling. I see the call as basically having a few parts. Number one, there is the internal desire. And we see that in 1 Timothy 3, 1, if any man desires the office of an overseer, it's a good thing. So first of all, there's that desire. And I think that is what most people today consider the totality of the call, that a man wakes up one day or over time and says, you know what, I just really have a desire to study and preach and lead in God's church. What I'm saying is that that may or may not be God's desire placed in the man's heart. We don't know. A lot of people have desired things that turned out weren't what God wanted for them. So what I'm saying is that the call begins with the desire that has to be there. But if it's of God, it's going to be the right kind of desire. And here's the key, really, to my understanding, is that if God is the one who has drafted a man, God is also going to craft that man with the character the message and the giftedness that will enable him to be successful in the position God has drafted him to fill. And that part of it has to be affirmed by a congregation, by a group of men who represent congregations in terms of ordination. So the call really is both internal and external. Internal is what I feel God wants me to do, but then that has to be affirmed through my character, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, and then two other things, as we learn throughout the Bible, those who were called of God and given his word, if you go all the way to the Old Testament, you've got Isaiah, you've got Ezekiel, you've got Moses, they were validated as being God's spokesmen. to the extent that their message aligned with God. And so if a man says, I'm called to preach, then we should expect that if God has called him, that then what he is preaching is going to be aligned with what God's word says. And then the, and I take this from Titus one, nine, it says, the man must be able to exhort in sound doctrine there. He has to know the truth and then, and be able to defend it against those who are in opposition. So there's some giftedness there. There's a message there, there's the character there, and there's the desire. So there's four parts to the call, only one of which is subjective. The other three need to be examined and affirmed. And what I say is that if a man goes through that and works hard and studies and goes through an ordination process, as I've mentioned in the book, what happens is that when those waves of ministerial despair that that wash over us as pastors. And Kevin, you know exactly what that feels like. Yes, I do. At that point, if a man can look back and say, well, I'm only in this position because I wanted to be. I never went to ordination. I never was affirmed by a congregation. Maybe I shouldn't be here. It's easier for him to walk away. But if he says, as I've said a hundred times, Lord, this is hard, this hurts, but turns out you drafted me and the congregation affirmed me and a couple of congregations have done that. I don't, I'm not in charge of my own life. I'm going to stay here and do what I'm supposed to do, Lord, until you call me someplace else or you discharge me. And I have found great security in that, that I didn't take this job on my own, that I wanted it. But for me, it was an eight year experience. in a church where I was working, helping as basically a seminary-graduated layman doing college ministry, but working at a different job. And over time, the elders looked at me and said, we believe God has, in fact, crafted you. You get to preach. Your message is aligned with Scripture. You have giftedness. They're the ones who then conferred on me the standing of, we believe God has called you to be an elder pastor-bishop amongst us. And I always look back to that because that was a group of men who I greatly admired and who understood the intricacies of pastoral ministry and doctrine and looked at me and said, yes, God has crafted you and you have a responsibility to him. to live out that drafting. Just focusing on the subjective part where somebody says, hey, I've been called to preach, do you think that because of the overemphasis on that and the inability for somebody then to say, well, oh, no, you haven't, you know, I can tell that you haven't been, Do you think that that's why we see so much jumping around in the ministry as well? I was recently at a pastor's conference, and during the course of the conference they asked people, how long have you been in ministry at your current congregation? And I was just surprised that the majority of the hands going up for very short periods of time, under three years or something like that, or under five years, that the majority of the men in the room, their hand went up and there were very, very few that had spent, you know, years, double digit years at their, at where God had called them to preach. Do you think that that's part of the reason why we see that type of thing? You know, obviously, Kevin, it could very well be, if you've got men who really aren't drafted by God, they're not going to be successful. But I also think, if I could segue into one of my other passions, is that I think in America today, there's a great sense in which we do not trust preaching. Preaching is good, but we trust organization, we trust music, we trust programs, we trust you know, events, uh, small groups, all kinds of things. And I see a lot of guys out there trying to grow a church based on all those other things. Here's the thing. I trust preaching. I, I believe that God has chosen the foolishness of preaching because it is a foolish way of communicating, especially in our day where we have television and all this other stuff to have a talking head up there explaining and applying scriptures that are thousands of years old to modern-day hearts, and expecting that somehow that is going to change lives and draw in God's elect. I mean, on the face of it, it seems counterintuitive. But I trust preaching. And so I believe that God uses His Word in the hands of His Spirit to do His work in the hearts of His people. And I teach preaching at the Master's College, and that's You know, that's one of the things I think, I hope, that we're known for. We trust it. And I don't think a lot of guys in America trust preaching to the extent that they should. Well, you've got a wonderful example there in John MacArthur, who all of these trends have come and gone over the years. And for 40 years, he has stood up there and opened up his Bible and preached out of the Word of God and let the Word of God speak for itself. And the blessing that has come as a result of that is evident. You talk about, let me remind our listening audience first here that we're speaking with David Haig. He's the pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Santa Clarita, California. He's also an adjunct professor at the Master's College. We're talking about his latest book called Appointed to Preach, Assessing the Call of the Ministry. It's put out by Christian Focus Publication, www.christianfocus.com. So if you'd like to receive a copy of that book, I'm giving away copies of it on the program today. And on the program, if you want to participate in the conversation, all you have to do is give us a call. We have a toll-free number set up that's good nationwide, and so you can call that number. That's 1-888-660-9535. Also, I have email up and running, kevin at knowingthetruth.org. That's K-E-V-I-N at knowingthetruth.org, and I'd be happy to get your question or comment worked into the conversation that way. Before we move on through the book, let's run to the phone line very quickly. We've got Greg on line two. Greg, welcome to the program today. I love your show, I listen all the time. I was just wondering if your guests felt it absolutely necessary to go to seminary to be a preacher. I've heard a lot of negative things actually about seminary. I was curious how he felt about that. Great question, Greg. Send me an email at kevinatknowingthetruth.org. It includes your mailing address, and I'll send you out a copy of the book, okay? Thank you. Okay, you can listen offline to the answer. Could you hear that question okay? Yeah. I think that's an important question today. I think there is some truth to what Greg mentions, that there are certain segments of the Church today that are really downplaying seminary education. As though seminary education kind of ruins men. Here's what I would say about that No, you don't you don't have to go to seminary to be a preacher But I think to be a good preacher you have to gain the knowledge that Seminary allows you to gain so if you get it a different way great I mean we all know the great story about C.H. Spurgeon who wasn't even ordained One of the greatest preachers in English-speaking world never went through what we would call ordination largely because he was at such odds with his denomination theologically that they would never ordain him, and he didn't want their imprint on him. But that's the exception. I understand the problems of seminary. I did it myself, and I realize that it can turn into, you know, just another graduate school course that prepares you for a greater career. But I do think it's all about the man. The man who wants to learn his theology and his exegesis and his church history, those are the three things that seminary, I think, should teach a man. And I think if you can get that elsewhere, that's great. And if God has gifted you... My point would be that if you're called into the gospel ministry, you want to be as thoroughly prepared as you possibly can be, and to say, I don't need to go to seminary. I'll just do this or that. It might work, but is it the best? Do you have to go to seminary? No. Do you need what most seminarians get? I believe you do. Good answer. I think you're absolutely right. There were invaluable times in the seminary program that I went to, and one of them was with preaching. We preached each week. The text was assigned to you. and it was assigned to you in the way that you would preach it, whether it was gonna be topically or contextually or different styles of preaching. We would do it at 8.30 in the morning and you would preach and then the other students, so there was no singing or anything, no preparation. The other students that came up to preach after you, the teacher would say, we will take the text as being read. So you couldn't read the text to start with. And then you had to preach. The students would then critique your preaching, and then the teacher would tell you what the real story was. We did that every week for about three years, and it was invaluable to preaching, since that is what we're called to do. Let's run back to the phone line. We're going to take John's question real quick, and then we will need to take a commercial break, and then we'll come back after that. John, what's on your mind today? Yeah, it resonated with me. When I went to seminary 25 years ago, this was what you're saying was emphasized. It's all about preaching as a means of grace. And so we were trained to be pastors and preachers, pastors who preach. the preachers who could pastor. I didn't catch the question on seminary, but I tell you, I just kind of hold my breath about guys going to seminary today, even in Reformed circles, which is my background. You almost have to have your stuff together before you go to seminary just to protect your soul, even in the best seminaries. and reformed evangelical circles if we've lost our ever-loving minds because there's such an emphasis on church growth. My question is, first of all, I think Master's Seminary may be the best seminary in America, and I'm Presbyterian, and I'll say that about a Baptist seminary. What can be done? Maybe you've answered this. What can be done? I think seminary's good, but I just shudder with these guys going to seminary today because it ain't happening, in my opinion, except for very, very few places where they're safe. I think masters is safe. Yeah. You don't want them to get ruined by going to someplace that's going to teach them some sort of erroneous doctrine or methodology, these types of things. Good question. I'm not talking about Harvard, Princeton or Yale. Yeah, right. I know, yeah. I hear what you're saying, John, and we could easily probably name names pretty quickly, but we won't do that. But anyways, thank you very much for your question. John, you know the drill. Send me an email with your mailing address and mention this book. And the book is called Appointed to Preach, and I'll be sure to get you a copy, because then you can read more thoroughly what David says in the book. David, you got a response for John? Absolutely. One of the things that my guys on my staff get tired of me saying around here is that form follows function. In other words, if you're going to do something, first you decide what it is you're trying to do, and then you decide the form of the event or the program that you need to get it done. I think that's the great problem in seminaries. The function has changed. It used to be, as John was saying, that seminaries were there to train men to understand God's to preach his word and demonstrate his heart. And so we threw our efforts into things like Greek and exegesis and historical theology and systematics. Today, the purpose is twofold, unfortunately. Number one, it's to attract as many students as we can to pay the bill. The same problem happens in seminary as it does in the pulpit, and that is we just take everybody. And quite frankly, if seminaries went back to saying, look, we're not here to teach you how to grow a church. We're not here to teach you how to become the next Bill Hybels or Rick Warren or even the next John MacArthur because, you know, the problem in America is that we we are all into this bigger is better idea. But if the seminary said, look, we are here to hone the gifts and graces that God has implanted in you as someone who is separated out to preach his word, we're going to teach you those things. And don't come here and expect to learn how to think. come here expecting to be sharpened in the way you already think. I do think John had the right point, though. I think a guy better know who he is and have his theology pretty square before he heads anywhere, right? The particular denomination that I was in for seminary, they required that we be at the church at least for a year before you could even make application to the seminary. And the purpose was, just as you're pointing out, that we would go ahead and have that doctrinal foundation before we ever went. Let me just tell our listening audiences, we're going to be back in just a couple moments. We're a little late on taking our break, so we're going to take the break now, and when we come back, we'll come back with our special guest. By the way, let me read a statement that he has made in this book, and maybe we'll ask him about that when we come back. He says this, the fact is that we do not just need more men. We need men that are called of God, truly called and gifted for pastoring and for preaching. What the church lacks today is not quantity, but quality in her pulpits. We'll talk about that when we come back from the break. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bolling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Yesterday, Tony Moody's came out with a report that they were going to downgrade our credit rating if this bill goes through. Most of the rest of the world knows we're about to go over a cliff, but we continue business as usual here in Washington. Now the good news is if we can limp through the end of this year, we're going to have reinforcements next year who I think are coming in with some stronger principles and convictions. Christian worldview today, weekday mornings from 7 to 9 on Christian Talks 660 and 92.9 FM. It's great pizza for a great price. So pack up the family and head over to Stevie B's near Walmart on Woodruff Road in Greenville. At Stevie B's, you'll find friendly faces and at least a dozen pizzas out at all times. Or you can order a pizza and they'll make it fresh just for you at no extra cost. So visit Stevie B's today. Hi, this is Pastor Kevin Bowling, and I want to take the time to thank John, Ruth, Carlos, and the good folks over there at Stevie B's Pizza for their support of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. Rick Santorum, former Pennsylvania Senator and Fox News commentator, has been on the front lines in restoring the right to life of the pre-born and protecting the medically fragile. I'm Lisa Van Riper with South Carolina Citizens for Life, inviting you to hear his story at the South Carolina Rally for Life, Saturday, January 15 at noon at the Statehouse in Columbia. Join Senator Santorum and speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. For information, call 803-252-LIFE. If you're having difficulty getting in and out of your favorite chair, you need to see Donna or Colby at Lift Chairs and More. They specialize in made-in-America lift chairs, adjustable beds and stair lifts with free financing and great warranties. Their old-fashioned service will make you a friend for life. You can visit their website at liftchairsandmoreusa.com or stop by 103A Butler Road in Malden or Anderson Road in Powdersville. Call 286-LIFT. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bolling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bolling. Hey, welcome back into the second half of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. We've got a good about 20 minutes or so left in our discussion today, so if you want to get in with a quick question or comment, another question that has come in via email, I'll be asking here in just a minute, and you can send your question that way as well. The email address is very simply just kevin, that's K-E-V-I-N, at knowingthetruth.org. Knowing the truth is all one word, it's .org, and I'll be checking it here periodically throughout the radio broadcast to try to work your question or comment in that way. Also, we have a toll-free number set up that's good nationwide, and you can call that number 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-WLFJ. Of course, I'd be happy to take your question or comment that way as well. We'll go back to our discussion here in just a second. I just want to make sure that you know about an upcoming special broadcast on Tuesday of next week. Dan Kruver will be with me here in the studio. We're going to be talking about reclaiming adoption. That's the title. of a brand new book that Dan has just edited, along with John Piper and Rick Phillips and others that have contributed to that book. We're going to be talking about the theology of adoption and how, as we understand our adoption in the family of God, how that should fuel our concern for orphan care and adoption physically in our churches, a concern for children that are fatherless, as James talks about throughout the world, and how the church should be concerned about that. Dan's book, he has been writing it over this past year, It is going to be released on New Year's Day, January 1st, New Year's Day, and the first live interview that Dan is doing is with us right here on Knowing the Truth. He'll be with me here in the studio. some folks with them as well. And you don't want to miss that. This can be a special book release interview that we're going to be doing, and I'll tell you about how you can get a copy of that. But that will be on Tuesday's broadcast of next week. You don't want to miss it. If you want to read more about that, just go to my website at knowingthetruth.org. Look down in the upcoming broadcast segment and you can read about Dan's book and go out to the publisher's website and Dan's website and find out more about it before the broadcast actually takes place. Let's go back to our discussion now. We were talking about Appointed to Preach. That's the subject of the title of the book and the subject that we're talking about, assessing the call to the ministry. It's a book that's put out by Christian Focus, and that's www.christianfocus.com. I am giving away copies of that book today. Let me read a statement here out of the book. It says this, "...Ordination thus becomes the means to limit pastoral ministry, to those upon whom God has clearly placed his hand in appointing them especially to his work." So here's the idea of ordination, not just to rubber stamp a person who says that they are called to the ministry, but to weed through and to evaluate if the person is not called to the ministry to save us all the heartache and tell the person plainly that we don't see these gifts in you, we don't see this ability, we don't see that God's hand is upon you for this particular ministry and to not move forward with that. So let's continue our discussion. David, I wanted to ask you about that portion of what you write in this book and to get you to elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah, I think part of the problem is that, as John, one of your previous callers, was talking about seminaries, what's happened is that the church has relegated to the seminary the responsibility to determine who should be in the pulpit. And so what happens is a man graduates from seminary and churches just assume, OK, this guy is called of God. He went to seminary, didn't he? But the seminary, if you ask them, they'll say, hey, no, we're just educating these people. Whether or not they're called is for the church to determine. And so what you have is the church counting on the seminary, the seminary counting on the church. Consequently, there is no mechanism whereby those guys who truly aren't called find their, you know, get caught in a net, and we are saved from getting into the pulpit. Before I go there, though, I do want to say I am not one of those guys who's just bashing preachers. I think there are a significant number of godly men around the world, and especially in America, Many, most of whom are laboring in churches of less than 200 people. They're faithful. They're godly. People are growing. They're going from first faith to firm faith, as we like to say here at Grace. They're keeping their marriages together in a great way. And so I champion both preaching and preachers. But I do have a concern that because ordination has really fallen by the wayside, that nobody is, there's no sieve anymore. And so that's what this book was trying to be about, trying to get the guys themselves to self adjudicate and say, do I really desire the things that go into pastoral ministry? And in the back of the book, I talk about the fact that as you prepare for ordination, you're going to have to do a lot of study and you're going to have to do a lot of writing. And that's part of trying to figure out in your own life, do I like the parts of the game? And, uh, I think I could talk about football. A good football player doesn't just like the game on Saturday. He enjoys the practice. He actually enjoys pumping the weights. So if a man is called to preach, I believe that he's also going to be gifted to be a good student. He's going to love to spend time in the text and reading and meditating. He's going to love to pray. Doesn't it make sense, Kevin, that if God calls me to preach, he's also going to call me to appreciate those parts that make up the preacher's journey. So because we have abdicated as churches our role and kind of assigned it to the seminary, now if someone graduates from seminary, they immediately go out and candidate in a church, that church basically says, wow, you graduated from seminary, you know your theology, you have a nice relationship with your wife, you must be called, and that's where I hope my book can help them begin to think in a different way. I've gotten together with people over the years that have listened to the radio broadcast and then said, you know, I'd like to just ask you, this is what I'm thinking about doing. And there's wisdom in the multitude of counselors. So I just want to ask, you know, what do you think about this? I've had some guys tell me, you know, I really don't like people. And I don't want, I want to be in the ministry. I want to go ahead and I like teaching and preaching, but I don't like people. I said, God is not calling you to the, to the ministry. I have a, I have a story about a buddy of mine who got ordained and I called him up and I said, well, congratulations. Now you're qualified to wash between the toes. And I talk about that in the book, that the desire, that is talked about in 1 Timothy 3, if anyone has the desire, what kind of desire is that? It's got to be the desire, first of all, to bring glory to God. Secondly, to serve His people. It's got to be a servant's desire, not a desire that I see all too often, and I even see it in myself. And that's to be famous, to be successful, to have a bigger church, to get invited to speak places. You just have to keep that pride under wraps because the desire that God places on your heart is to be second, to be behind his glory, to be a person who builds up other people. John the Baptist, he must increase and I must decrease. So there is a sense of God's desire in our hearts that is somewhat different. than the normal desire we might have to be successful. You had mentioned one of the sayings that you use there at the Grace Community. We have one speaking to this as well that we use. We say, let our names be written in water, but it's the name of the Lord that we want people to remember, you know, just washed away. It's not important, you know, really, if they remember who we are. And remember, you know, what great people we are. You know, what matters is that they understand what the scripture is saying and they respond positively to what God is saying in his word. Somebody's writing in here via email, wants to remain anonymous, but she asks this. She says, what is your thought on a mother knowing God is going to call her unsaved son, unsaved so far, she says, to be a youth pastor? especially given your thoughts that all men called to be in the ministry may not be so. Should the mom just keep quiet? Probably. Yeah, you know, that's interesting. Jay Packer wrote a book called Hot Tub Religion a while ago, and hardly anybody's ever read it, I think. But in it, he talks about this idea of, you know, God told me this, or God placed this on my heart. And he makes a pretty bold statement. He says, if God tells you something, Just keep it to yourself. If it comes true and he tells other people, great. If not, you know, then you'll have to realize it may have been a bad pot of spaghetti or something. But obviously, I think it's clear that there's no way we can say something about an unbeliever in terms of the call to ministry. Right. We at this point, we aren't even sure that God is going to call them to grace. Right. We don't know that. And so to assume that that's going to be true, I think, again, I mean, we can get into this, Kevin, you and I probably on the I think we're on the same page here, but there's been so much monkeying around with theology. and direct revelation and kind of the subjective side of it, and that's where this kind of comes out of. I think, not to say that this person is in the hyper charismatic movement, but of course from John's book, John McCarthy's book on that subject, One of the things that I think is most damaging in that movement, not so much the tongues or the healing or those types of things, the temporary sign gifts, as John MacArthur calls them, but I think the words of knowledge and the, thus saith the Lord, and those types of things, which should be, if it was truly the Lord speaking, should be written down and taken just as seriously as the 66 books that we have. But they're not, and I think many, many people have been damaged by someone thinking they may have the right motives and all these things and a good heart, but really stepping outside of their realm and claiming to speak for the Lord when it is just not the Lord speaking. In this particular case, I would note the point that it is a mother about her son as well, and so she wants good things for her son. I would be suspect of those motives and just say that in a desire, a very strong desire for their child to be in quote-unquote full-time Christian ministry, that that may be influencing what they feel that the Lord is saying. And as you mentioned, I definitely would counsel to just If it comes to pass, then so be it. If not, then you didn't step out and try to force something to come to pass that God was not in whatsoever. So I think that's wise counsel that you gave. Let me ask you about, in your book, you talk about that God's not looking for volunteers. You mentioned that you went to a camp, and a lot of people in our listening audience, we're in the buckle of the Bible Belt here, they've been to these camps, and the preacher at the camp says, God wants you, He needs you to get on His team, and He wants you to be a missionary, He wants you to be a pastor. Who's willing to do it? Who's going to volunteer? And they're really, you know, given that, well, I guess if I don't, you know, I'm not a real Christian, and these types of things. But you say God's not looking for volunteers. God, the pattern that we find in the Word of God is that God drafts the men into this position. Expound on that a little bit, please. Well, usually the one that's used is the Isaiah 6 passage, and we hear that Isaiah steps up and says, here am I, send me. But if we look at the text there, we realize that God came to him first. I mean, God demolished his self-esteem and then looked right at him and said, who shall I send? I mean, if I come and I look right at you, Kevin, and I, you know, wipe you out and demolish you, and then I say, who's going to be my servant? That will be me. But if you look at Ezekiel, you look at Moses. I mean, Moses is a great example. Four times God said, look, go on. And Moses came up with with excuses. Some of the greatest preachers of history have resisted it. Jonathan Edwards, C.H. Spurgeon. What I say in the book is that determining that God needs me starts me off on the wrong path. It's wrong in soteriology. It's wrong in ecclesiology. It's God's show. It's for His glory. Quite frankly, he doesn't need any of us. He could make the rocks cry out. He's chosen to use us, and he drafts men, and he sets them apart. As we see in Acts, when they're praying, the Spirit says, set apart for me, you know, Saul and Barnabas, for the work that I've called them to. And it's always a picture in the Scripture of God setting apart a man. My book is about how do we How do we recognize and affirm those that God has already drafted? And my answer is, because the one he drafts, he also crafts. That is, he gives them the growth in character, their message, and their giftedness to do the job he's called them to. And where we see those things, then we can come and say to that young man or that old man, whoever it is, say, we believe on the basis of your character, your giftedness, and your message. that the desire you have in your heart is actually there because God has placed it there. And that is a huge relief to a man who realizes that what my desire is, is God's desire for me. Therefore, strap it on, put on the breastplate of righteousness, grab the sword of truth, you know, have your feet shot with the preparation of the gospel of peace. and march out into this great adventure, this great rescue mission that God has initiated in Christ and called us to partner with and get after it. And yeah, you're going to get beat up and bruised and bloodied, but guess what? We win. I read the end of the book. Amen. Great privilege. In your study of the New Testament scripture, you mentioned a number of the cases there, Moses and Ezekiel and Isaiah and so forth from the Old Testament. But in the New Testament, you spend a little bit of time zeroing in on the word herald. in the scripture. Just tell us the importance of that word and everything that you see contained in it that is so important at looking at what the job description for the pastor will be, the minister, in the New Testament scriptures. Yeah, the title of the book, Appointed to Preach, actually comes in 2 Timothy 1.11 where Paul says, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. And he uses three different words there. The word preacher is the Greek word keroux, herald. And it was a technical term for a position that was occupied in the cabinet, so to speak, of every major government official of the day. Generals even had them. And it was the man who carried the message. Obviously, back in those days, they didn't have mass communication. So if a general or a governor or a ruler wanted to get his message out, he called his K. Rooks, his herald, into the room. He gave him a message, and he said, go out and deliver this message in my authority. And in the book, I mentioned some research that I did where these men that were heralds had to have a certain set of characteristics, and they're very similar to the characteristics given for an elder in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, in that they had to have rock-solid character. In other words, They would be tempted maybe to change the message down the road in the next village if the message was going to fall hard on the ears of the subjects because they might kill the messenger. And so his integrity had to be such that he took the message that was given to him and he delivered it in the authority of the one who gave it to him without messing with it. That's exactly the picture that Paul paints of the New Testament preacher. We have been called into the throne room of God, and we've been given these 66 books. This is His Word, and we are not at liberty to mess with it. As Dr. MacArthur says, our job as expositors is to bring the food from the kitchen to the table without getting it dirty. Well put, and I've heard Dr. MacArthur say that a few times during his preaching. Well, David, we got a chance today to go through probably about, and when I say go through, just mention some of the points of about 20% of your book. Let me tell the listening audience that the book is, I think, about 160 pages in length, so it's not huge. But we only have two or three minutes left. I just wanted to ask you if you would recommend other books along this line, too. For instance, like a C.H. Spurgeon's lecture to my students, or John Stott's book, or others like that that are in this same category. Yeah, in fact, in the back of the book, page 148 and following, I give a bibliography that I actually annotate of a number of pastoral resources, preaching and preachers, Samuel Logan, the preacher in preaching, Bruce Pickles, Light and Heat, the Puritan view of preaching, John Piper, the supremacy of God in preaching. And I actually tell people a little bit about those books. and there's a section on theology, a section on prayer, those kinds of things. So, you know, I think anybody who's going to preach needs to be a good reader and a good prayer and a good servant of Christ. So that's what the book's hopefully going to help. Help me. Help me to write it. So I got my my benefit out of it, just thinking through these things. Praise the Lord. David, we really appreciate, first of all, the fact that you have written these books, and I pray that the Lord would mightily use them. And secondly, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule as a pastor and a professor there at Master College to meet with us during the vacation time, probably for you. And just thank you for taking the time out to visit with us here on the Knowing the Truth radio program. Well, Kevin, you're doing a great ministry to the saints and to the church. in the south and you're a pastor too. So we've got to preach this weekend. So we've got to have something ready. Amen. Thanks for taking the time. Amen. Well, thank you once again. Let me tell the listening audience that we're just speaking with David Hagg. David, as I mentioned, is pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Santa Clarita, California. So we get about a thousand downloads a month from California. So if you're in that area, I certainly encourage you to go by his church, Grace Baptist Church in Santa Clarita. And also, let me just say that the book that we were talking about today was the book, Appointed to Preach, and that book is published by Christian Focus Publication. You can go out to their website at www.christianfocus.com. Christian Focus is all one word, www.christianfocus.com, and there you'll find both of David's books and other works as well that you can take advantage of. Let me remind you, on Tuesday of next week, the first broadcast in the new year, I'll be speaking with Dan Kruver, who will be right here with me in the studio, and we'll be talking about his book that is released on January 1st called, Reclaiming Adoption. And so you don't want to miss this. This is going to be a wonderful broadcast next Tuesday, January 4th, right here on Knowing the Truth. Remember, the Lord Jesus Christ said, He said that you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Have a wonderful New Year celebration. We'll see you again next year. You've been listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. For more information about the church and radio ministry, visit us on the web at knowingthetruth.org. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or Clear Channel Communications. Life-changing teaching and talk for the Carolinas in Georgia. Christian Talk 660. WLFJ Greenville Spartanburg Anderson.