This is the Faith Debate, a theological round-table gab fest with the Mix Master as the Master of Ceremonies and the notorious Triple B, the Big Bridge Builder. Can we build it? Yes, we can. The Faith Debate is a free-for-all forum where faith community leaders wrestle over the truth. In less than 30 minutes, learn more about what really matters than others learn in a month. Are you ready for a clash of ideas? Are you ready for the sound of freedom? Let's get ready to rumble. Yeah! In this corner, weighing in with a master divinity from Reformed Theological Seminary, the Faith Debate Master of Ceremonies, Troy Skinner. Got a moron here. Is that it? And in this corner, weighing in as a pastor, teacher, and founder of Bridges, connecting needs and resources in the local community. Ooh, mama. The notorious big bridge builder, John Sweiser. Now, I'm just getting warmed up. What does the Old Testament say about the coming of Jesus Christ, and how does his coming fulfill these prophecies? These are questions Craig Lunker is asking, and he, for some reason, thinks Jonathan Schweitzer could possibly have some answers. Craig is a self-described young-in-the-faith Christian. John is a pastor and the founder of Crossed Bridges in Frederick. And if their voices sound familiar to you this week, it's because they've been on the show for the last four weeks. Nice. This will be five shows in a row. We're going to keep coming back till they kick us out. Or until the world ends. The point is it's closer than ever. Just keep rolling. With every second that passes, we're one second closer. So there's a positive spin for you. So we had a really fun series of shows that aired this past, you know, last month worth of shows. If you missed those, check them out on podcast. And we've continued some dialogue in the intervening time since those shows were originally recorded. And Craig continues to come up with interesting questions and things that may be on his mind, but maybe not specifically only on his mind. Like they might spark his interest because he thinks, hmm, I wonder if other people are thinking about these things. Maybe we should talk about those things. And one of those things had to do with the prophecies that are found in the Old Testament. and what they do to inform us about the central figure of the New Testament, and I would argue the Old Testament as well, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. So, is there a particular question that you, Craig, had on your mind to start with, or do you want John to just start listing a whole bunch of prophecies and get us going on how they're fulfilled? Well, here's kind of the dilemma I'm having, is as I delve deeper into my faith, my wife, who is Jewish, asks me questions that I can't answer. and I feel very ignorant in my faith. And I thought I had a pretty strong foundation, being that I went to eight years of Catholic school, I was an altar boy, paid attention in religion class, and I know there is foreknowledge of Christ coming in the Old Testament, and my wife has began to ask me about why she needs Jesus, as a Jew, and why Jesus is necessary for her to get to heaven. And I am attempting to build a sermon for one, for my wife, and I really want to have the knowledge base to be able to educate her when the opportunity presents itself to deliver it to her. So when I feel the Holy Spirit says, ding ding, you're ready, son, we're going to sit down and have that conversation. But I really am taking this as a blessed opportunity to, in 24 years of marriage, we both respected each other's faith. And my wife has gone to churches and has actually been the motivating factor to get me involved in some of my faith. In 24 years, she has never asked me why she needs Jesus in her life. And I take this as a very blessed opportunity, and I take it very seriously. So I figure, who better to ask than a couple of knowledgeable men in the faith? And he couldn't find those, and so he came on the faith page. The reality is that the stakes couldn't be higher, right? Though, arguably, no matter what answers you come up with, right, I would imagine that none of this should undermine, you know, the strength of your relationship with her and your love for one another, right? So I would start there and just recognize that for the two of you guys, you know, you you're walking a journey Together that there's no reason to not be in that journey together Even as you dig in on some of these, you know, most personal of questions, you know, what what is what is the ultimate Well, it's amazing how God keeps drawing us both closer to Him. And, you know, I went to a bar mitzvah last week or two weeks ago with my wife and, you know, there were some beautiful readings out of the Torah and one of them really struck me. And, you know, I am very, my faith is strong, and it said, you know, Father, give me faith, not fanaticism. And I said, hallelujah. And that hadn't struck me before. And I want to be, make sure I am, you know, faithful. And I want to have, you know, that right, keeping God in the right perspective. Yeah, fanaticism is an interesting question because, right, Christians have died for their faith, and every generation are dying for their faith now, and so the definition of what's a fanatic and what's somebody that is just genuinely committed to walking out What it means to follow Jesus Christ the difference between those two? And I've been in plenty of places where people said look we need to be fanatic about Jesus meaning that we really believe What he said and that we'd be faithful to it and put it in action the negative kind of a fanatic would be somebody that ultimately at the end of the day is not Following what Christ said and not staying in good community with the body of Christ But instead as it says in Proverbs, you know that that when a person separates himself from everybody else and he won't listen to Rebuke and he won't listen to counsel that that individual is is ultimately going to destroy themselves, right? There's a there's a you know, a type of fanaticism there that's really bad. So the question, I think, for somebody that is Jewish, ultimately, is history, right? In fact, arguably, the Jewish community, going all the way back to Abraham, is the culture on the earth that gave us history, that taught us how to record history in a way that doesn't make George Washington look better than he is, doesn't make King David look better than he is, but was committed to telling the truth, unvarnished, about Abraham's lies, you know, about his wife, about, you know, Moses' failures and not going into the promised land, you know, like right down the line. You know, and what, there's only four kings in all of Israel's history that ended up getting a good grade at the end of their lives, right? I mean, that's four out of like some 40-plus kings in the northern. And why is that? Because the Jewish people are committed to telling the truth. Well, part of the difficulty for any Jewish person right now is that for the last 2,000 years, since the time of Christ, since Christianity moved into the place of being in power, that every 70 to 100 years since the time of Constantine, somewhere in Christendom, there was an outbreak of severe persecution of the Jewish people. Every 7,200 years, I've read a book by James Carroll that traces that out. He's a Catholic historian that is exhaustive in his studies, and he has traced it out. And from the Holocaust till now, we're about in the 70 to 100 year time frame, right? And it looked like to many Jewish people that it was Christendom, right? The birthplace of the Reformation, Martin Luther and Martin Luther's writings. It looks to a lot of those guys like it was Christendom that was at the heart of the Holocaust. And so when you look at the extent of that history from a Jewish perspective, even the ability to consider whether or not Christ as presented in the Gospels is the fulfillment of any Old Testament prophecies is clouded, understandably, by all this history. And so I think it's important to approach any kind of a discussion about whether or not, you know, where Jesus, how Jesus fulfills rather the Old Testament needs to start with a deep humility in the body of Christ that in as much as the Old Testament records a lot of the brokenness of Israel, We should admit all the brokenness of those that have followed Jesus Christ, as Gandhi said so well, that he said, I really like your Jesus. It's the followers of Jesus that I have a hard time with. I think the quote is, I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. honestly drives to the heart of, why do we need a Christ? And this is a place where Jews and Christians would be in significant agreement. We need a Christ because as humans, we've done such a poor job of doing what's right. We have incurred this debt of sin and brokenness towards one another, and everything that the law represents in the Old Testament and the sacrificial system is this recognition that we have incurred a debt that is too big for us to pay back, that we can't pay back that debt, and that we need the mercy of God to be there for us. So I think we start there, and then you start to move into, okay, well, then how is it that Christ the Messiah, the messianic figure of the Old Testament, seems to fulfill all of those things. That's the voice of Jonathan Schweitzer. The other voice you're hearing on this panel today is Craig Lancour. I am Troy Skinner, and this is the Faith Debate on 930 WFMD. So that provides kind of almost a contemporary context for why there could be some resistance from somebody who's Jewish to say, I don't know, why should I be thinking anything good about these Christian folks and what they're talking about? Because look at all the things that Christendom has done. And I think it's important that you use that particular word because Christendom and Christ are not one and the same. Christendom and Christianity are not one and the same. Right, that's super important. So we have to make that distinction. So I'm wondering, Craig, your wife... Could you go ahead and define real quick then the difference between the two? You're saying they're not the same. How are those two different, Christendom and Christianity? Unlike with Islam, where the faith teaches that the government and the church are one and the same, so they have Sharia law and things like that, it's a theocracy kind of a thing, where the government and the religion are inseparable. The government leaders are the church leaders, the church leaders are the government leaders. And that is not the biblical model for Christianity. But somewhere along the line, uh... you know for around the time of constantine really uh... that biblical truth got fuzzy or got lost and so all the sudden the state and the church started acting as though they were the same and and uh... kings were anointed into power by popes and things like that and and popes were gathering troops and sending them on crusades and and that's not that's not Christian. And so it's caused not just confusion for our dialogues with Jews, but our dialogue with Muslims, too, because you tell them that Christianity is different than Islam. Oh, yeah? Explain the Crusades, then. And then you have to make this distinction, okay, that was Christendom. That is different. And I don't know that, like in an American context, that it's Christendom anymore. I think that there was a Christendom idea in America for a long time, at its founding and throughout much of its existence. the things that undergird and are kind of controlling the thought life of our leaders and the thought life of our culture aren't necessarily Christian. And then you've got these Christians who want to still think in terms of, well, America is a Christian nation and that sort of thing. And I think what we've got now is we've spawned this new era that's, it's not Christendom, it's not Christianity, it's churchianity. And so it's like, It's a watered-down, weakened version of Christendom. And arguably, since the time of Constantine, that was an issue, right? Those that wouldn't die for Christ before Constantine came in, meaning that the previous Roman Empire was persecuting and killing Christians. There's a whole lot of Christians that converted from Christianity back to worshiping the emperor. before Constantine made it legal, and then Constantine made it legal, and a whole bunch of those people were like, oh, okay, we want to be Christians again. And so from the get-go, there was this question in the church as to who would really, you know, be willing to stake their life on Christ or not. And so that question, I don't think, has gone away, you know, through all the centuries. But the heart question for Jewish people, for all of humanity, is how can a good God allow so much suffering, right? This is the heart-level question that I think drives everything. Like, how's God going to resolve that specific question? And that's where, when you move into the Jewish perspective on the Messiah, you get a whole bunch of um tensions dynamic tensions that that develop where the messiah on the one hand is this suffering servant lowly but he's also this reigning glorious you know king you know he's he's uh he's going to uh heal people but on the other hand he's going to destroy you know, the wicked, right? And so you have this picture that springs out of the Old Testament. He's going to be a human character descended from David and from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he's also going to be called the Son of God, right? And you have all these strange tensions that that when you try to put them all together, it was really hard for all of the prophets to like grasp, well, what is this character gonna look like? And of course, so the fulfillment, the great kind of magnificent moment in prophetic history is Isaiah 40 to 66, where Isaiah grapples with how is it that God can bring forth a Messiah that does all these amazing things and walks all these tensions right out of the nation of Israel that has been so uh, uh, so rebellious and unwilling to follow God. Right. And that's, that's this place where we get this, you know, this picture of Isaiah 53 that he was despised and rejected and, and, uh, that, that he's going to, he's going to take all of our sins upon himself and, uh, and that, that he's going to end up dying for our sins right next to Isaiah 61 and Isaiah 58 where it's describing this Messiah that's going to come and he's going to stride forth in power and in justice and with his own arm he's going to work righteousness and he's going to put zeal on like a cloak And he's going to go out and he's going to be bathed in blood, the blood of the wicked as he goes forth and he brings justice because there's nobody else out there that would do it. And so he's going to do this himself. And so, you know, you have these dynamic tensions in Scripture that, you know, get into this, you know, well, which is it? You know, which side is the Messiah? Is he going to be, you know, glorious? Is he going to be weak? Is he going to die? Is he going to live forever? You know, these kinds of things. And it's so funny to me as I dive deeper into the Bible, how time and time again, we don't learn from history. Like, I was reading about, you know, the soldiers marching around the city, you know, seven times, you know? That didn't make any sense to men of war. They march around the city of Jericho seven times and then the walls fall down and, you know, that makes no sense to us. And we expected Jesus, His coming, you know, as this huge, you know, boom, you're gonna know Christ is on this earth and it was this whisper and he kind of was just kind of walked in and You know, and so even Jesus disciples, right? We're looking for him to be a king That's gonna take up the sword and you know is gonna is gonna do this great. So what kings do so so when they're going by all these towns that are rejecting Jesus, his disciples thinking back to the great prophet Elijah, right? You know, the great prophets of the Old Testament are Moses and Elijah. They're like the, you know, the top two. And then Daniel's right there, you know, kind of behind them and Isaiah, but in terms of, you know, like demonstrating the power of God, Moses and all the miracles and Elijah and all his miracles, right? These two amazing characters, while Elijah called down fire from heaven on his enemies. And so that's like this moment that the glory of God's side, the Messiah is gonna come and he's gonna destroy the wicked, right? And who doesn't want the wicked to be brought to justice? I mean, is there anybody on the earth that doesn't want the wicked to be brought to justice? Other than the wicked. Besides the wicked, right? Right, right. I mean, those that are really doing evil, you know, that, you know, you know, the Hitlers and the Pol Pots and the Bernie Madoffs, you know, that are destroying people's lives, you know, from the inside out. So in all these situations, We all want justice. And his disciples were looking for him to come in power and glory and to establish this kingdom on earth, where it says in Daniel that he will rule them with a rod of iron. That there's gonna be this moment where righteousness rules and all the wicked are gonna be destroyed and we have justice on the earth. And it's gonna be a glorious time. Well, sure enough, Jesus didn't come and do that. So you had asked the question earlier, Right. What is it the Jewish people are still looking for that Jesus hasn't fulfilled and what Jesus hasn't fulfilled That the Jewish people Legitimately should be looking for from the Messiah is that he's gonna set up peace on earth right and so And believers are looking for that to happen at the second coming of Christ, right? And we're waiting for that moment, as it says in Peter, that with the Lord, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day that He's patient because he doesn't want anyone to perish, right? He wants all to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. He wants all to be saved. He's not willing that any should perish. And so, you know, if the Messiah comes in the end times, that's going to be, there's no more opportunity for people to get their lives right with God. And even the Messianic figure in the Old Testament agrees with that. I think next week maybe we'll try to unpeel the onion a little bit on what some specific questions or doubts or concerns that your wife might have that you haven't felt equipped to answer. Maybe we'll dive into some of the specific prophetic pointers in the Old Testament that are pointing forward to Jesus. By the way, I almost forgot, to our Orthodox Christian friends, a joyous Resurrection Sunday to you today. Yeah, he's risen. He's risen. Indeed. My daughter was born 11 years ago on this day and every 11 years her birthday will be on Easter. It was at four o'clock in the morning. I did not make the Easter sunrise service that morning where I was supposed to speak because I was in the hospital with my daughter. How about that? So that's the voice of Jonathan Switzer. The other voice you've been hearing on the show this week is Craig Longcourt. I am Troy Skinner. This is the Faith Debate. You can find us online at wfmd.com. Go to the Faith Debate page. You can find it a couple different ways, and everybody's so savvy on websites now, you can find it pretty quickly, I'm sure. Once you get there, you're going to find links to recent podcasts, a link to the Audio Vault, which will take you to the archive of podcasts that go back a number of years, and you'll see a listing, a description of what's aired recently, and also a description, kind of a TV guide for the radio of what the Faith Debate has on tap for the coming weeks, so you can kind of plan ahead. So anyway, check that out, look for it. It's also available if you want to scroll through the feed on WFMD's page. And if you happen to stumble upon my personal Facebook page, I usually post the Faith Debate stuff on there as well. So look for it in all of those places. And if you share it and you like it and you comment on it, then Facebook and Google and everybody else treats us nicer. So we appreciate all that good stuff. Till next week, 167 and a half hours from right about now. God bless.