I can't figure out what the applause was for, whether it was you applauding because Ron was done, or because you haven't heard me yet. But thank you anyhow, I think. You're a friendly group, aren't you? There are some non-friendly groups out there in spiritual warfare. The enemy goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. You know, a lion is a rather unusual animal. Beautiful, terrifying, graceful, ferocious. Don't tell me that reminds you of some people you know. Peter said he goes about, Satan goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Now, you know very well a lion doesn't roar as he's on the prowl, right? He doesn't let his whereabouts be known, or his intentions be known. He goes through the grass, he sees this lone zebra all by itself. He can outrun a zebra for a short distance, and so he gets in a spot where he can get him. After he makes his kill, then he roars to let people know, this is mine, you stay away. Oftentimes you'll let some of the lady lions make the kill, then he'll move into it, and he'll take over chasing them away. It's typical, isn't it? There are a lot of lion men, right? The implication here is the enemy goes about stealthily as a very successful lion who has previously roared, seeking his next victim. The enemy has a great track record. He's lived for thousands of years, ever since he was created before the foundation of the world, when all the morning stars sang for joy, all the sons of God shouted. He was among them. He was once beautiful. Now he's turned evil. He's a lion. But the lion is no match for the lamb. The lion always tries to get at the lamb's people, who are also lambs. And greed and hate and distrust and loneliness and gloom and pride and starvation and fear and death are written all over that lion. And he's after this little lamb. And the lamb says, Christ is risen! And the enemy begins to crumble. And all we can see then is the couple of eyes there. Maybe a little claw left over. Wow, that's power. Well, cartoons aren't always funny. Sometimes they're true. Martin Luther knew about the enemy. When he went to the Diet of Worms, that's nothing to eat, that's a place in Germany, he stood true to the word of God. But as he came into the city in his carriage, he said he could feel, almost see, the devils on every housetop. Let me read you something from Martin Luther's catechism. Why should I waste words? Time and paper would fail me if I were to recount all the blessings that flow from God's Word. The devil is called the master of a thousand arts. What then shall we call God's Word, which routes and destroys this master of a thousand arts with all his wiles and might? It must indeed be the master of more than a hundred thousand arts. Shall we frivolously despise this might, blessing, power, and fruit, especially we who would be pastors and preachers? I remember there were state-supported pastors and preachers. If so, we deserve not only to be refused food, but also to be chased out by dogs and pelted with dung. Sounds like Martin Luther, doesn't it? Not only do we need God's Word daily as we need our daily bread, we must also use it daily against the daily, incessant attacks and ambushes of the devil with his thousand arts. If this were not enough to admonish us to read the Catechism daily, The Catechism included the Word of God in Luther's estimation. There is God's command. That alone should be incentive enough. Deuteronomy 6, 7, and 8 solemnly enjoins that we should always meditate upon His precepts, whether sitting, walking, standing, lying down, or rising. And we should keep them before our eyes and in our hands as a constant token and sign. Certainly God did not require and command this so solemnly without good reason. He knows our danger. He knows our need. He knows the constant and furious attacks and assaults of the devil. So he wishes to warn, equip, protect us against them with good armor, against their flaming darts, and with a good antidote against their evil infection and poison. Oh, what mad, senseless fools we are! We must ever live and dwell in the midst of such mighty enemies as the devils, and yet we despise our weapons and armor too lacy to give them a thought. Carroll Stream, Illinois, where I live. When I first moved in there, there was about 800 people as a population. Now there are over 30,000. That's even with going through the mild recession we had in the 70s. But out there, there were some friends of mine who lived. One of them was a dean at Moody Bible Institute. He had three children. We had two. They're not too far apart in age. That is, his children and mine. And Dick Moline is his name. And Dick and Jane lived in that area. And this is something that they wrote and made public. I'm sure they wouldn't mind my reading it to you. In our 1990 letter, we stated that two of our children suffer crimes from some male teens in the occult. As our adult children's memory retrieval continued, however, we learned that a husband and wife are next-door neighbors. Their three foster sons and the babysitter we used were part of a satanic coven. They and the babysitter's family attended the same Carol Stream Baptist Church we did. Infiltrators. We knew them well. They pretended to be our friends. We realize the details would be too heavy for this letter, but we encourage you to believe and take seriously the reality of satanic ritual abuse and its unbelievable evil. We caution you not to believe people who say we should not believe anything that cannot be proven. Some, like Bob and Gretchen Passantino, are causing much confusion. See Christianity Today, 11-11-91, for example. How can anyone prove satanic ritual abuse? Well, it can be done. Satanists are controlled by Satan, the mastermind of all evil and sin. They're taught well how to cover the tracks so they won't be caught. They make the crime so heinous our minds just can't believe the little children or memories of adult children. It's easier to say they made it up. They were told what to say. They imagined it. Please believe us. When our adult children's memories come back, they live through an emotional hell that no one can imagine or make up or pretend. They weep. cry, cry out for help, scream, wail. The body gets cold and shakes and they can hardly talk. He says, we are grateful for those who are using God to help us and our children. They've come a long ways. More and more Christian psychologists are believing and understanding that satanic ritual abuse and demons are real. There are excellent books on these subjects. He mentions some of us here, including Neil Anderson and Merrill Unger. in his bibliography, he says, we provide a bibliography of material on the occult for those covering the postage of three dollars. This man didn't know such things were happening to his children. Yet our children are subject to a whole lot. Satan has a flavor for everyone's taste and our children are no exception. This is from American Christian Youth Review. And this is a Christian magazine with a youth emphasis and with a counseling emphasis. And it comes from people who are in Collingswood, New Jersey. And Bob Jones' background for these people. Last year, I came across an advertisement in June 1991, says David Dicconio, who's the editor. And he says it was an advertisement in a June 1991 issue of Toy and Hobby World. It's a magazine promoting Zen intergalactic ninja. Do you know what ninja is? It's the executioner variety of the karate people. Deadly. And the demon-like alien caught my attention because of the name Zen. Zen Buddhism leads its adherents toward self-realization by discovery of the Buddha within. This is in reality an indwelling demon which has been invited by Zen practitioners in an attempt to reach the inner self. Also recall from the study that Ninja is a martial arts assassin who kills through magical powers." Upon seeing this ad, the person tried to find some clarification. The Archie adventure series comic book for children. He got a hold of that and after leafing through the booklet he realized his original hunch was right. It was nothing more than an occult indoctrination tool for children. Here's a man freed from serving demons since age 10. He says, when I was crying in my bedroom, by the way, he was in a household that practiced Satanism. His father told him, you're different, son. You're not like most kids. John's father was into something very evil, some of which John would soon experience himself. At age 10, three demons appeared to him. He didn't know they were demons at the time. John says, boom, they just appeared. They told me that I was unique. I was the only one of my kind, the only one of my breed, repeating the father's propaganda. They said I was special, and they were my teachers now. I began to know things that I shouldn't have known. They would tell me things, and they would happen. And when this stuff started happening, I mean, how else could I deny it? I didn't think of them as demons. They came to me calling themselves the Council. The council told me, you don't need anyone else. We are your teachers now. We are your family. He says, I was getting ready to start a war, to form a new government. They were teaching me all about governing. They told me when the time is right, you will lead a million man army. I studied Hitler's tactics. Whenever I came in danger, I knew instantly on instinct. So it continues. Those are rather wild and bizarre cases. But Satan has his usual tactics, and we're not always aware of them. Sometimes we grow up without understanding just what's happened in our lives. Here's a story of a missionary. His name is Randy Green. And they were missionaries, and our missionaries were the Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Society. And this is an article in TEAM magazine called Wherever, TEAM, the Evangelical Alliance Mission. He said, the Lord called me to preach at age 17. God gave us opportunity in January 1976. We went to Caracas, Venezuela, and they were the CBFMS. We went to Costa Rica for eight months so Marnie could study Spanish. I grew up in Argentina as an MK. And I already spoke Spanish, so I spent that time carefully studying Bible passages that deal with Christians' conflict with evil. I began to see how demons could affect Christians. As I studied the Word, I understand better the warnings against giving the devil an opportunity in our lives. By the time we left Costa Rica, I was convinced Christians could be demonized to varying extents. By the way, that's what my book is about. demon possession in the Christian. I think we ran out of them, but order blanks are over there, so you can get some. So say all the people who have the power and the knowledge and do all the work for us over there at the table. We just stand up and have fun. They do the work. Thank you. So in Venezuela, my battle with lust continued. It was difficult to deal within the States. It was twice as hard in the mission field. How are you going to help people in Venezuela with their problems when you are still being defeated? I asked myself. How could I tell them Jesus has the power to save from sin when I hadn't experienced that power in every area of my own life? I've been in Venezuela a year and one afternoon I sat in my study and the sun blazed through my window. My thoughts were far from sunny. I was miserable. I knelt before the Lord and cried out in desperation, Lord, if you don't show me how to overcome this problem of lust, I can't continue being a missionary. Lord, have mercy on me. Help me. Between my tears and desperation, something happened. I had difficulty breathing. I continued crying out to the Lord, wrestling with him in prayer. Then deep peace flooded my spirit. The Lord was freeing me of demonic bondage. I had opened the doors to demons. in my life through specific sins, sexual immorality, and other sins that had given the devil a foothold. I had learned to crucify the flesh, but I had never resisted the devil. I never imagined that behind many of my temptations were demons working with my sinful nature to try to get me to sin. I could not blame my sin on demons, but if I had known more of Satan's schemes I could have resisted more effectively in two years since that experience. I continued to struggle with sin as all Christians do. But for the first time in my Christian life, I walked consistently in the Spirit and experienced victory over the bondages of my life. So many people are ignorant of the devil's wiles. When the Apostle Paul said, we are not ignorant of his devices, that was not a general statement true of all Christians. When he said we, he was talking with the editorial we, as he wrote, to those people who didn't know about the wiles of the devil, because he was telling them, forgive such a one, lest Satan take advantage of us. If they'd known the wiles of the devil, they never had been told that. It is not that Christians know. Christians are rather ignorant. And we must know the enemy's tactics. General Douglas MacArthur said that the most important thing in the war is to know the enemy's tactics. We may know our personnel and our resources, but we must know the enemy's tactics or you might catch us blindsided. Are you ready to help people who might be in bondage to the enemy? Now the bondage may have various levels. Some people complain of what we might call poltergeist activity. Of course, no German understands that word, right? It means playful spirit. But they're not playful. They're really those who are trying to attract attention so they can get hold of a person's life. And some people complain about doors opening and closing in the house, hearing noise, footsteps walking through a piano or up the stairs, things moving around in the house. I had a call from Dallas, that civilized city in Texas. Big D. They had a big problem down there. This Christian couple had a child who'd been playing with a next-door neighbor who was into magic and spiritism and perhaps witchcraft. And the next-door neighbor child had really taken a vicious attitude toward their child. Things started flying around the house. Windows were being broken by glasses that came out of a cabinet and were thrown through the windows. They were watching it happen. They called me up on two occasions to say it's still continuing. We prayed with them and a large part of it stopped. You see, some of that is external and can be taken care of by specific prayer. I'm surprised at the number of people who say, what shall we do about such a thing? They never thought about praying. What are they going to do? See the psychiatrist? He'll not save the glass windows. He can talk about fear and why you got that and so forth, but he's never going to solve the problem. What we need to do is depend upon the power of the Lord. Be strong in the Lord and the power of his might. I think these people have some relief. That's an external thing. Some people are bothered internally. Sometimes it's a combination. Let me tell you a story about Peter Grey Eyes. Peter Grey Eyes is in Navajo. I heard the story from his pastor down in Tuba City, Arizona, when I was down there last November. And I was on the reservation there. They invited me on, sort of a first, a white man on to talk about Satanism. Because they had three suicides. due to satanic involvement of their youth. So they wouldn't know what it was all about from a biblical point of view. Well, it wasn't a large group, but it was a good group I spoke to. But one of the group was this pastor. Good Christian man. Ever been hugged by an Indian? It's a whole lot better than being scalped. I knew his approach to me was friendly. I didn't duck, I walked right into it. He told me the story of his parishioner, Peter Grey Eyes. Peter was a prominent Indian in the area, and he came to know the Lord, to the ministry of this pastor. Well, since he was prominent, and there was a community that was against him, including witch doctors. He got a bit of opposition. So he walked out of his hogan one day. Hogan is a sort of round or six-sided type of building with a hole in the center like a permanent teepee. He walked out of there and there in the tree in his yard were 12 owls sitting on the limbs. One of the owls said to him in Navajo, We are going to kill you, you, you. Now an owl is not a sign of wisdom for the American Indian or for the East Indians. Whatever they might be, it is a symbol of death and it spoke death. He was concerned. He went back to see his pastor. His pastor said, well, I'll tell you, you tell those owls You tell those owls that they are out of place, that you belong to Jesus and they have to get out. So he went back to his Hogan. And another day he came out of his Hogan and there were the 12 owls again. We're going to kill you, you, you. He went back into his Hogan. Wife, they're there. Well, why don't you do what the pastor told you to do? Go out and preach to the owls. So he went out there and he said to the owls, owls, I want you to know that I belong to Jesus. I've given my heart to him. My wife belongs to Jesus. My children belong to Jesus. My hogan belongs to Jesus. I've given it to him. The cattle out there and the sheep out there, they belong to Jesus. And see that fence all the way around there? That's my territory. You are trespassing. I want you out of here. Get out." He waited. One owl flew away. Then another owl flew away. Finally, they all flew away. They never came back. But in one year, twelve witch doctors died. He's strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the full armor of God. He took his stand in Jesus Christ against the threats of 12 powerful witch doctors who deal with demons. And he stood. Now friends. There are all sorts of things that we have to deal with. There are occult things that people get into. They need to be helped out of that. You see, in this world, where Satan works. We have a dualism, not a dualism set up, but we have opposing forces. Dualism is two equal and opposite forces. Monism, everything is one, the ideal and the adjustment, like misadjustment, like in Hinduism. Rivalism, like in Greek or Norse mythology, Roman mythology, we have vying gods, where there's no one that's really sovereign, one just stronger than the other. However, we are talking about biblical sovereignty, where God, the Creator, who is good, allows, controls, judges the temporary expression of evil. And so we have now two systems. We have the truth system centered in Christ and the lie system centered in the Antichrist. Of course, behind all these, God and Satan Christ is opposed by Antichrist, and apostles and prophets and teachers by false apostles, prophets and teachers, all mentioned in Scriptures. 2 Corinthians tells us about, in chapter 11, about apostles, false apostles, that appear as angels of light. You don't really catch fish on a bare hook. And you don't stand out in the middle of the clearing and say, dear, come over here, see my gun. You're venison poor. So there's always a hook. It looks good. You can have health. You can be whole. And so you go into New Age type medicine. You can have power with God if you have this experience which we are prescribing for you. Come get the laying on of hands. Typically our cult. Transfer of power through the laying on of hands. Miracles. are counteracted by magic. Back in Indiana, we have Amish who powwow. Do they do that around here? There they, if a child is sick, they measure his foot, take a string seven times that length, wrap it around an egg, pronounce a formula over it, ending in the name of the Trinity, they put it in a fire, The egg will pop corresponding to how seriously the child is ill. The string will never burn. And there, they take the string out and they hang it on the south wall or they bury it in the south yard. And the next day, the child is well. My friend Dean Hostetler has told me that he's never seen a case of that to fail. But there is among these people. Four times the rate of illness that should be expected, four times the rate of suicides, and four times the rate of of mental illness. They are playing in the hands of the enemy with expressing their magic. There are false healings and false tongues and false revelation, false doctrine. Satan's system basically is destructive, suppressing persons. God's action is creative, developing persons. Satan's system is bondage. leading to death. Satan's system is wretched, Christ's system is blessed and he gives freedom and he gives life. Well, let me just say that there are all sorts of things that people can get into and you can help people who are into those things. The occult, applied to the arts, By the way, this word means hidden or secret. And applied to the arts, it means seeking secret wisdom or tapping secret power. You shall be like God, powerful, knowing good and evil, secret wisdom. Right from the beginning, his tactics haven't changed. And the categories people usually put these in are these right here. Divination, which is like fortune-telling or secret identification of things. Magic and spirit contact. I can't go into that in detail. I just want to throw some things on the board here. This is just exposure. You'll have to read my book or some other good books. Popular types of divination. Ouija board, card laying, astrology, clairvoyance, fortune-telling, ESP, hypnosis, Palm reading, rod and pendulum, including water, witching, spirit, prophecy. I can't go into describing those. I'm just saying that these things are specifically condemned as part of the occult in Deuteronomy 18. Deuteronomy 18, God says, when you go into the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to do detestable things to those nations. Deuteronomy 18, verse 9. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire. That's infant sacrifice to God Malik. And then the next part of that sentence says, one who uses divination or one who practices witchcraft, interprets omens or a sorcerer, that's a magician, one who casts a spell, a medium, a spiritist, would you expect that child sacrifice and divination or fortune telling would be in the same condemnable lot? Well, it's true. It's true. That's where they are. Now, let me just say, people who get involved in those things are bound to have some difficulty. Throw some things on the overhead just to get you thinking. Here are some modern forms of occult activity. Psychic diagnosis and treatment. Oriental mystic healings like acupuncture, acupressure, certain types of herbal medicine prescription depending on how it's prescribed. Magical healing. Some charismatic healers. holistic health clinics, Christian science practitioners, the martial arts like Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, and all the rest. All the meditational arts that are Indian or Eastern, Zen Buddhism, Transcendental Meditation, and some tongue speaking. I have come into 17 cases of tongues, all of which were demonic except one which is psychological. Please be careful about the laying on of hands to receive power. That is typically our cult. Catherine Kuhlman, Pittsburgh. Women preach the gospel very clearly. No question about that. But in her healing campaigns, she would have out-of-the-body experiences. Ellen Spraggett in his book, She Believes in Miracles, says she came out of her body. She'd look down and see herself down there. Is that me? I can't believe it. And she'd say, get over into that part of the audience. The healing is taking place over there. Typically occult limited. She'd walk along the streets and feel like she was somebody else. Probably was. Friends, that type of thing is confusing. Some people go so far as to become demonized, that is, invaded by wicked spirits. And there are many mentions of that in the Gospels. Now, I'm not going to try to teach you about this. This is a whole different lecture. I'm just introducing the idea that there is such a thing as demonization, and it means a demon-caused passivity. Demon possession is not a good word. If it was an English word, possession in that case meant control. in the English language. The Greek does not mean possession, it means control. And so, it means a control by one or more demons inhabiting a human, which manifests its effect in various physical and psychological disorders. In equivalent terms, to have an unclean spirit, to be troubled by unclean spirits, to be oppressed by the devil, to be cruelly demonized, and to be afflicted. Well, those things are real in the Scripture, and Jesus treated that more than nine times extensively, and then there are more mentions in the gospel where he treated many people oppressed by the devil. So the symptoms basically are the manifestation of a demonic personality within and through a human. We started out talking about external influences, now we're talking about internal influences. The display inside of this person may be mild or severe, may be observable or non-observable, internal or external. And some are very wild, like the maniac of Gadara in Mark 5. Some are very mild, like the women with the bent back in Luke 13. And the difficulty depends upon how many spirits are involved, and how wicked they are, and what sort of rank they have. But Christ can deliver from that. Let me just say, if you run into people who are hearing voices in the head, who have predictive dreams, that type of thing, you've got a person with problems. You can be of help to them. The best thing you can do is listen to them and not write them off as kooks or somebody with strange hallucinatory experiences. When a person has voices in the head, what's the first thing people think? Schizophrenia, right? Paranoid schizophrenia if they're afraid, right? or manic-depressive situations are up and down. And so, psychiatrists can give us very much help in the area of brain chemistry, but they can't solve a demonic problem. Demons don't always respond to chemistry. So what we can do is take a look at the symptoms, listen to people, check out the causes. Let me tell you something you can do to help people. Listen, discern the symptoms. Some of the decisive symptoms, if they can predict the future, if they have such things as predictive dreams that always come out, magic powers if they have the ability to locate water or lost objects by rod and pendulum. mediumistic powers, contacting the dead, getting messages from outer space, so to call. Personality problems may add up to that. Not every one of these means that demons are involved, but if these things are there, you might suspicion that. Obsessive-compulsive behavior, that means unconscious drive to have to do things. Paranoia, or great fear. Voices in the mind that make sense, not schizophrenic voices that are fragmentary, but Voices that make sense that are anti-God, anti-the person. Destructive thoughts. Why don't you drive into that pole? Why do you think you're worth anything? Why don't you just end it all? Why don't you kill your mother? See that knife on the table? Pick it up and plunge it into your heart. Destructive thoughts that talk about you or the person in the second person, you, you, you, and argues with you or argues with a person. Or if a voice speaks out of a person and says, we hate her, we're going to destroy her. Her? That's not the person speaking, that's somebody else speaking. Unreasonable continual depression. Inability to, or opposition to spiritual activities, and difficulty reading the Bible. I have some people come to the Bible and when it comes to say Jesus, it says Satan in their eyes. Or they can't read everything that speaks about the Lord and his victory over Satan, but can read all the things that have to do with Satan's activities. Uncontrolled emotions, like going along pretty smoothly and suddenly wham, anger, rage comes up, violence. and then suddenly it changed back. Chemistry doesn't change that quickly. It takes a while. The quick changes indicate a change of control. Confusion, blanking of the mind, inability to remember, long periods of time. By the way, that doesn't mean necessarily demonic things. It could be multiple personality disorder where there's an amnesic effect. But that gets a little complicated. What can you do? Listen. Listen to people. And then Consider, ask them some questions. Is there anything in your ancestral background? Because that could give some difficulty. For God says, I visited upon the third and fourth generation, the iniquity of those who hate me. That is, you were idol worshippers or trafficked with demons. That is the first one. the ancestral involvement. A second one would be personal involvement in occult practices, specifically if they're involved in witchcraft or Satanism, or if they're involved in illicit sex, personal controlling sins, drugs, alcohol, mind control techniques, false religions, cults, heavy legalism, cults, pornography. You know that there are lots of Christian men who check into hotels and turn on the secret channel while they're away from their wives, thinking, oh, I'm just by myself, it's all right. Satan is using that to control people. Another way to receive demonic control is by transfer. Transfer, the treatment received from demon-influenced persons. To have sex with a person who is demonized means there might be a transfer of a demon. Astrology advisors, charming, healing, laying on hands for power or healing our certain tongues. Hypnotism, psychic treatment. When you give yourself to hypnotic treatment, you want to know who's in charge of your brain, your mind. It might be a demon inside of that person. Hypnosis has always been a thing that's used in regression to former lives, reincarnation. It's always been used in the occult. to get visitors from outer space to come in through the hypnotized person. What can you do to help these people? Well, first of all, you can listen. I have a paper over there that you might want to pick up. It's called Friend. It's not yellow, it's white. And it's a letter called Friend. And in that, it starts out with what you can do to help somebody else. Read through it with somebody else. Remind them that anybody who is troubled is still loved by God, because they're important, made in the image of God. If they're a Christian, they're bought by the blood of Christ, and that proves their worth and establishes their relationship. and their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And this requires a response of praise and thanksgiving. Then assure them of their position in Christ, as Bill Nugget was telling us. Their position in Christ, which means you have perfect acceptance with God and the righteousness of Christ. You have perfect access, cumbolding to the throne of grace. You have perfect authority, because you've been given delegated authority, not intrinsic authority, not power, but authority. because of your union with Christ. You were crucified with Him. You're raised with Him. You're seated with Him in heavenly places, and He's far above principalities and powers, and in Him you are far above them. So you can submit to God, resist the devil, that he would flee from you. Lead them through submission to God's will, believing His love, His word, and that He has a good plan. Renounce all possible involvement of the ancestors. Confess and renounce personal sins. Confess and renounce personal attitudes and treatment received. And people are liable to be helped. Pick up that friend letter. You may modify that. If you modify it, take my name off it. But you may use it as it is if you like. Just don't have people call me. you can help them at the grassroots level. Then you can refer them to Ron. Or the ICBC, International Center for Biblical Counseling. We have lists of people around the country who might be very helpful in helping people in certain areas. Don't pass up your opportunity to express Christian love Don't pass up your opportunity to help a person out of difficulty. Don't pass up the reward that comes from being courageous in helping people who were hurt. Then you need to refer to people who have a bit more experience and understanding in more difficult cases. But you'd be surprised what you can do to help people at a grassroots level, to get over the hump and to assure them that they're not going crazy, but they can stand in Christ and know a great deal of measure of victory. Now there's a whole lot more that we could say, and we've spent a lot of time the last two days on more detail. I didn't want to overlap too much here because some of you have been here before. But I thought I'd run this by you again and introduce the rest of you. to a possibility of helping others. You don't always have to refer to a professional. Do your job. Then maybe the professional can do his job better.