The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. It did include Baruch, so that will include the Apocryphal text. Yes, so the Masoretic text didn't include the Apocryphal books, but the Septuagint did. And so the Eastern Orthodox will want to use the Septuagint because they think it means those books are inspired, but they're not. Uh, okay. Um, but but so so because because um, it was was it always 66 books and then the catholic church added no No at first there was no books. And then there was uh, joe, but was it probably written first? And then maybe the the pentateuch then there was six books and then there was later added on to god's word throughout These centuries as god worked in the old testament So we had 39 books, but the Jews they had 22 instead of 39 like we do because they combined certain books like first Kings the second Kings as one So where we would divide them, there's still exact same content. They just divided them up differently. So they had 22 that are 39 So it's the same number of words would just arrange differently So the Jews according to Romans 3 2 are the ones who were given the oracles of God so they recognized the scriptures and they did not the apocryphal books The E.O. and the R.C. do, but they're denying the right and the calling of the Jews and the calling by God to give them the scriptures. And they did not accept the apocryphal books, okay? So at that point, before the New Testament was written, there were 39 books, you know, 22 if you go to the Old Testament style, Jews, and that's all it was. It did not include the apocryphal books, okay? Okay, just one more quick question. So I was talking to an EO guy, right? And so he would say that, oh, he said that, because I told him, you know, the commandments and, but he said, why did God tell Moses to make a icon of a cherubim, the image of a cherubim? Because, yeah, sorry, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, no, because even when you have Exodus 23 where it talks about no image of heaven and stuff. Yes. So the EONRC uses this argument. Well, God commanded the creation of of of images. So images are OK to use in worship. But when God commanded that they be made, He commanded it to be done, and He commanded it to be in the temple that represents the things dealing with His glory, His presence, His work. All right, I guess we're on now. We had a little bit of an issue there. I had to reboot the Comrex. That does happen. I haven't been on for a couple of weeks, two and a half weeks or so. And I would need to confirm that I am on the air. So, Keith, if you could just confirm that by typing yes. You can. OK, good. Thanks, brother. All right. So today's date is December 8th, 2025. I want to thank everybody for your patience and prayers. My wife passed away two weeks ago tomorrow, and it was kind of sudden. She had a long illness, and then it took her quickly. And for all of you who prayed, I want to say thank you. And it's been rough. It's been tough. I don't recommend it. I don't like it. And I've only cried about 50 times, and it's horrible. That's the nature of sin in the world. It has an effect on all kinds of things. For those of you who don't know, my wife had a rare connective tissue disorder. She was in a lot of pain, a lot of suffering for just a long time. She's now with the Lord. By God's grace, I get to see her again sometime. So, again, for all of you who prayed, all of you who found out, I want to say thank you. And I should be able to get through the show. I don't know why it's a little bit of emotional doing this right now. But that's just how it is. So by God's grace, we'll move forward. And there we go. Let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome, brother. You're on the air. Hey, God bless you, Matt. Welcome back. Thank you. Well, yeah, I wanted to discuss with you Genesis chapter 1 verse 14. Okay. About signs and wonders in the sky. And what brings me to that question is many years ago, I read a book by a man. I think it was E. Raymond, the captain. It was called The Witness to the Star or The Witness of the Stars, something like that. And I was very fascinated by how, not astrology, but astronomy, and just the constellations seeming to be like the gospel in the sky, and how past generations may have had this knowledge, but we seem to have lost a lot of it. Would you be able to elaborate on that in any ways, just because as I look and see a lot of what is in the sky. When I was a kid, that's what you did. You looked at the stars. Now everybody's distracted and stuff, but it seems to at least spell out what looks like a gospel message through the constellations. I just wanted to hear what you had to say about it. Yeah, I'm familiar with it and I've known about it for many, many years. The Virgin, virgin birth, Virgo, there's a difference. There are more than 12 constellations and they do, they spell out the gospel from ancient Jewish, excuse me, ancient Jewish customs. I thought about doing an article on it, but it's so rarely discussed that I haven't really focused on it. I do have the book someplace, I don't know, I've got it someplace, and it goes through. So apparently in the constellations, each one, there are individual names of the stars, and the individual names carry the message of the theme of what's going on in each constellation. And it actually teaches the incarnation, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, atonement of sins and everything in the stars. And so that's all I can tell you. I haven't gone through in great detail to look at it, but I am quite familiar with it. Yep. OK. You know, for me, this is actually why I do believe the gospel message and that the Bible is what it is, because every time I think I know something, I find myself having to go back and realize, you know, God had something there from the very beginning, and I just missed it. And in light of family events and all the stuff going on with all of us, it really gives me hope and lets me know that you'd be really foolish to think something like that was just done by simple evolution and accident and chances. I just don't contemplate how people could not attribute that to the Creator, because, you know, that message is very inspiring and fascinating. And actually, I feel quite dumb. By the time I'm done thinking I'm smart, I'm like, oh, wow, I completely didn't see this. So, yeah, it just really just magnifies my faith. Yeah, it's by a guy named Bollinger, and he also did a book on the tabernacle and how it points to Christ. These are two books worth getting. Bollinger, B-O-L-L-I-N-G-E-R. And so it's not as though he is looking at the constellations and then making it up to make it fit. but there's actual evidence from ancient Jewish writings, and it's very interesting. So, you know, I remember something about Sagittarius, the dual-natured conqueror, I'm looking at some research here. Pisces, the fish, multitudes of the church swimming, the church there, and just various things. So it's worth looking into. Along with the tabernacle. The tabernacle, people don't realize how detailed it is in relationship to the person and the work of Christ as well. It's really very interesting. At any rate, I'm familiar with it. OK, I'm going to have to go, but I feel even more foolish because that's actually the Bible I recommended or asked a question about. And I have upstairs the author of the Companion Bible. I completely forgot he wrote that book, too. Oh, good. OK, well, there you go. Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff, man. Good stuff. All right. All right. All right, well, thanks a lot, Matt. Talk to you soon. God bless, Jermaine. God bless. All right. Hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, the number's easy, 877-207-2276. You can give me a call. Let's get to Scott from Spokane, Washington. Scott, welcome. You are on the air. Hey, buddy. How's it going? Oh, it's going, man. Doing radio. So what do you got, buddy? Good, good. Glad to have you back. So my question here, it's in, I don't know if I messed up by saying 2 Peter, but it's actually out of Acts. I got confused with another question. So this goes into talking about basically the context here. Let me find where I'm at. Acts chapter 7, verse 42. It says, but God turned away and delivered them up to serve the host of heaven. And it goes into talking about the idolatry, malech, and things like that. So my question is, and it seems like this, is the Bible talking about that these people were basically worshiping demons? Because it says the hosts of heaven. God turned them away to serve the hosts of heaven. Well, you know, I have to look at it, but my Bible program just kind of froze a little bit. Let's see if I can get it. There we go. All right. Okay. So I was a little distracted because my computer, my program's frozen. I need to get to it. So I was focusing on that. So could you repeat your question? My apologies. Yeah. So Acts chapter seven, verse 42 is where the verse starts. It's talking about idolatry. The context is the Israelites making the golden calf and worshiping idols. And it says in verse 42, but God turned away and delivered them up to serve the hosts of heaven. And so I'm just wondering, it calls them hosts of heaven here. Is it talking about just them serving demons, fallen angels, or something like that? Oh, that's a good question. It might be. I have to do some research on it to see. It's a good question. It's a judicial act of God, turned them away and delivered them up to serve the world. Look at this, to worship the host of heaven. Interesting. As it is written in the Book of Prophets, it was not to me that you offered your victims and sacrifices 40 years wilderness. You also took along the tabernacle of Moloch. It's a judgment. Yeah, it looks like it's a judgment that ultimately all false gods are demonic. And so I would say that this is dealing with that. It looks like it's also a reference. Yeah, it is a reference out of the Old Testament, of course. Right. Interesting. So Amos 5.25. So, yeah, I think it might be just that very thing of worshiping the demonic forces like the Mormons do and the Catholics do with Mary and, you know, Islam with Allah. So it might fit. Yeah, it might fit. Yeah, because the first thing I think of is, you know, God gave them over to a debased mind. But, you know, I noticed some other things, too, the very same terminology. So one's in Second Peter and another's in Jude. Judas, verse 8, and 2 Peter is 2, verse 10. And they both talk about worshipping blaspheming glorious ones. That's the term, glorious ones. And it's the same for the other terms. So I'm finding three places in Scripture all having to do with judgment and all serving or worshipping glorious ones or the heavenly hosts. Yeah, which implies that you're in contact with them and something's going on there. Hold on, we've got a break. Okay, buddy, we'll be right back. Hello, folks. After these messages, please stay tuned. Back on with Skies. And then it looks like Charles, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call on this lovely December 8th day, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. Scott, are you still there, brother? I sure am. Yeah, so during the break I looked a little bit, and yeah, I think you're onto something there. The verses do talk about serving angelic realms, the demonic forces that seek to imitate the true and living God, and have deceived so many people, like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Muslims, in various forms. And also, I believe, in Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, in the idolatry of Mary. that they're serving demonic manifestations in these so-called apparitions and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's there. It's there. Good call on your part. Yeah, I just found it kind of interesting that I didn't even realize until just now when I'm looking at my question list that my last three questions all randomly, you know, had to do with the same thing and then I, while I'm waiting to get put on the radio, I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, these are all using the same term and it's all the same context generally. So yeah, that's pretty interesting. You know, if you have time for one. Sure. Yeah, no, it's really so yeah, Mark. Excuse me, axe 436. Okay. And in my question note here, I'm just the question is, is this the same Barnabas that's, you know, friends with Paul? I don't know that when I had to look, it probably is probably is. But I couldn't tell you because they do have common names and they just be, uh, you know, even there's other names of Jesus and Mary and Joseph. as we know in the Bible, so we just have to check it out and see if it's the same one. I don't know. And I don't think we could find out for sure, because it doesn't tell us for sure any definitive markings. But you know, it's also called Barnabas by the Apostles, which translated, Son of Encouragement. So you know, we can draw the conclusion. It probably is, probably, but not necessarily. OK? OK. Well, yeah. Well, thank you. I just wanted to say before I go, the offer still stands. If you want me to send you out an order of food or whatever, have it delivered, just let me know, my friend. Appreciate it. Yeah, I'm cooking and cleaning and going through and just doing like I do in the house, been doing a lot of purging, a lot of cleaning and occupying things and stuff like that. So I'm good. You know, I'm good. But I do appreciate it, brother. Yeah. Well, I love you and have a great day. Amen. Thanks a lot. Appreciate that. Okay. Bye. All right. Let's get to Charles from Ohio. Charles, welcome here on the air brother. Hi. Um, I'm just one to, I'm so sorry about the loss of your wife, but I rejoice with you that you have that confidence that you'll see her again. You have to make reservations. She's got so much better place in heaven off to, you know, it'll take a while, you know, and I can make reservations, go up and see her when I get there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My wife and I will be married, uh, 59 years, uh, December, December 29th. And, uh, She, you know, it's just, uh, you get so close and it's, you know, like the Bible says you're one flesh and it, it, it's tough. I'm sure. I, I, I, I feel deeply for you. Well, thank you. It was something I've been preparing for for years, and in the past few weeks before her passing, even more so because it was obvious that she was declining more rapidly. And then, it's an interesting little bit of a story in that suddenly we had an opening for a doctor's appointment, and because of that, the doctor said, you need to get in right now and go get checked on something. And she would have passed away that night either here at the house or the next night. And she was on life support and we were able to get the family all flew in to be able to say goodbye. So we consider that to be a blessing in that sense. And we spent our 39 year anniversary in ICU. So, you know, it's what it is. But praise God, you've been married 59. Praise God, that's a good testimony. Praise God. It's wonderful to hear. Absolutely, praise God. I had a question. I just wanted to ask your view of lordship, what is referred to as Lordship, Salvation, and why you believe what you believe about it. Well, it depends on how it's defined. As I tell people, always define your terms first. And there are variations within theological circles on what Lordship Salvation means. And there's two extremes, we could say. Not extreme as in necessarily bad, but the two opposing views on different sides of the scale would be that you can't be saved unless Jesus is Lord of every area of your life. And the other one is that, that he becomes automatically the Lord of your life and he's just Lord and you're just realizing it. That's the one I hold to. So when anybody would say to me that you have to make him Lord of your life in all areas in order to be truly saved, I reject that. We don't make him Lord, he is Lord. It's not our effort that makes him in that position. And we need to, though, seek Him in every area of our life. And when we fail, which we do regularly, then we are too late before the Lord Jesus and just submit to Him more and more. And so He is Lord by definition, but we are not to make Him Lord in order to be saved or to stay saved. That's too close to work righteousness. No, He is Lord by the fact of His existence and Him saving us. And then we're manifesting His Lordship in our lives in this troublesome, troublesome, troublesome thing called sanctification of becoming more like Him. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I just have so much trouble with continually failing at the same thing over and over again for such a long time and it just really, it just really overwhelms me sometimes. You and I could sit down and compare sin notes and their failures. Um, absolutely. Uh, you know, all I can say is, God is gracious, God is loving, God is patient, God is kind. He chose us, He redeems us, He keeps us, even though He knows us so thoroughly and completely. And we will continue to fail, not that we want to, and not that it's okay, but we're going to because we're just not perfect. And all it shows me is how good God is, not how good I am, but how good He is. He is the Lord. That's right. He's so good. Amen. Amen to that. Amen. Thank you. Hallelujah. Hallelujah is right. Okay. Well, thank you. God bless you. God bless you and congrats on 59 years of marriage. That is just impressive. So praise God, brother. Praise God. Thank you. All right, but I've got to go. All right. Hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, the number's 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call on this lovely December 8th, the number is 877-207-2276. And I was off for a while, back on. Let's get to Ryan from Pennsylvania. Ryan, welcome. You're on the air. Hello, Matt. Over the years, you and I have had a lot of disagreements about a lot of things, but this is one of those times to set those things aside. And I wanted to extend my condolences to you over the passing of your wife. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate it. It's been very difficult. And yeah, it's it's tough. But I do appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. And I wish you and the rest of your family all the best. OK. Yeah. Appreciate it. Seriously. Thank you. All right. Take care. All right, man. God bless. All right. Yeah, I could talk about my wife and... what she went through, let me just say that all the people I've ever known, I used to work at a hospital, all the people I've ever known, I've never known anybody that suffered physically as much as her. And I'm just so glad that God has seemed fit to allow her to enter into His presence. And one day we'll meet again, and that's the hope of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Because He rose from the dead that we will, if we're in Christ, we will see our loved ones again. And I know there are a lot of people out there who have lost loved ones and your hearts are still aching. Oh man, I can relate. And all I can say is death is a rude visitor. It comes into our lives crashing and it destroys and it just breaks things, leaves damage and pain and suffering and then leaves. We've got to be the ones to clean it up and it's just hard. And I relate, I relate to that and to all of you who don't have the ability to, you know, be able to talk about it on the radio or stuff, but you have the ability through your friends. And I got some advice for people. I've had a lot of people, a lot of people in the past two weeks giving condolences. And I got some advice for those of you who want to do that. I'm going to say this very generically Don't say too much Don't try and offer Anything don't try and say yeah, I know how you feel Unless you have lost you know spouse don't try and compare it to anything like losing a pet don't Don't offer any Anything other than something like this, I'm really sorry, and I'm grieving with you. And that's about it. So many people try and offer words of comfort. Well, you'll see her in the resurrection, it's true. But what they're trying to do is, and lovingly, is steer our hearts to good things. But let me just tell you that in the center of the storm of the wound, that trying to cheer somebody up and encourage them, at least with me, isn't a good thing to do. The people who are wounded so severely in their hearts are so sensitive that it's best if you don't offer too much. Just sit with them. You know, weep with them. Give them a hug. Just tell them you're sorry, you're hurting with them. and just say as minimally what you can. I've had the displeasure of losing a wife, of losing a son, and over the years, the different things that have been said, well-intentioned, and that's how I take them. I always take them that way, well-intentioned, and that's how I receive them. I always filter everything through that, through that desire from others to comfort. And so that's how I interpret it. And that's how I take it. But I can tell you that if you have someone that you know is going to go through this or just has, try not to offer too much. Just love them. Don't try and offer solutions or hope too much. Unless you know them. You can say it. You know your friends and stuff like that. You know, it's just hard. And we're so sensitive at that time that it's best to say as little as possible and show as much as possible your grief with them. With hugs, with tears, and that's a thing. That's what ministers, okay? Tough stuff. We got a call coming in, but I wanted to talk about something that kind of came up today. Kurt Cameron has apparently adopted annihilationism or conditional torment. And he and I have spoken before, and I have his cell number, at least it's been a couple of years or a few years that we talked. and I texted him today, I haven't gotten a response back and so I'm hoping that he will respond and we can talk and I can go through the issues of annihilationism and its logical problems and biblical problems because I've written a great deal on it, studied it a great deal and so I know that a lot of you may be aware of this already that he's come out and people have been saying this and letting people know, yeah I'm familiar with it and You know, we'll just see. We'll just see. And that reminds me, that reminds me of all things. Ray Comfort, a day or two after my wife's passing, excuse me, hiccup there, a day or two after, he contacted me and was very supportive and, you know, was very nice. And I really appreciate that. So, because I have met him a few times and he's a good man of God. And so, Man, just so much to deal with, you know. So anyway, for those of you who have lost loved ones, boy, you have my sympathy. You have my sympathy. And words just fail. That's all I can say. Let's get to Pearl from Virginia. Pearl, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you, sir. I started to say I wanted to share something with you, but I'll not take up your time. What I want to ask you, one time when I was listening to you, and I like to listen to you, the Lord God Almighty speaks through you. That's the highest compliment I can give to anybody. You said something derogatory about, watch my knee. And I've always liked to watch my knee and thought that he was as close to the Lord Jesus as anybody could be. And I was wondering, what did you find wrong? There are a few things that are problematic. He's a trichotomist, which is not heretical. It's what you do with trichotomy. Trichotomy says that the human being is body, soul, and spirit. And so that true spiritual development is based on understanding that, believing that, and then working through that. And so what he's doing there, mistakenly, is rejecting the dichotomous view. And I'm not saying one or the other is perfectly correct, but he gets into that kind of needless division as a foundation for spiritual development. He would reject denominations, and that's okay, but he did not go with elder leadership, which is necessary because that's what the Bible teaches. 2 Corinthians 5.17, Titus chapter 1, and 1 Timothy 3. And so there were some cult-like behaviors in practices, and I'll tell you my experience when I went to the church once to check things out. Also, there's a hint of modalism that's there, and I don't know what the later view is. So back when I lived in Southern California, I went to the local church, and I went there and interviewed them. for stuff because I've been hearing things and I went there and I remember it well. And a person met with me and it was a good conversation and it seemed pretty good for the most part. I know how to ask the right questions. And I remember that basically was okay. And then I got an email from them. The email thanked me for my politeness talking to them. And I remember this email very well because in it they talked about how they had to sue people who said negative things about them. And that I wouldn't be like that, of course. So it was a hidden threat against me to make sure that I didn't say anything negative against them. And that's what it was. so that's cult-like stuff and so there's also we get present revelations which depends on what they are and how Because of the charismatic gifts, we can get things like Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, but some people will say they get revelations from God. God tells them things. This is problematic. And also a deeper life in perfectionism. And so these all have problems associated with them. On the edges of the doctrine, when they all blur together, it can become bad. Hey, hold on, Pearl. We've got a break coming up. Folks, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, we have two open lines, 877-207-2276. Pearl, you're back on the air. Sir, I would, all of that that you just told me concerning watch my knee, I couldn't begin to lay hold of it. You'll mind. Yeah, let me summarize it then. Let me summarize. They sue people. They don't believe in really eldership leading. They teach that there's only supposed to be one true church per city. They are against denominations. They're basically emphasizing that they have the truth more than others because only one true local church is supposed to be there in a city, which means that their view is above other views. And this is cultic, cult-like. Yes, it is. I've read enough to know that. Thank you, sir. And I have one other question. Are you familiar with Micah Van Huss? No. No. He has a new book called Angels Eternal. Okay. And I was just wondering. I don't know if it's good or bad. It's about the unknown. Anyway, I heard just the last 10 minutes of, I've forgotten the church's name. It's put out by Beacon Street Press. Well, since I don't know if the book's good or bad, I really don't want people... But you've never seen it or heard it? Yeah, I can't approve or disapprove. I just don't know. And sometimes people come on and want to push a book, and it might not be good. I don't know. But, you know... I mean, I'm not pushing it to you. I'm just wondering what you would think of it, is what I mean. I don't know. It's so much to do that I just don't know, okay? Well, you've never heard of it. I don't know if I've heard of it or not. I don't recall it right now, but sometimes people tell me things and then I forget. The man that is a member, and I've forgotten what the name of the church is, anyway, He said he's a Bible-believing Christian who came to know Christ as his savior at seven years old while studying computer science at Pensacola Christian College. Micah developed a personal relationship with God. Like I said, don't know. I don't know. And so that's it. Don't know. Okay. All right. Well, I so appreciate all of your hard work and study. And my heart bleeds for you with you losing your precious other half. Her taste in what? Men. Oh, yeah. You know, I just couldn't trust her judgment because she married someone like me. So that's why. Listen, that you. Well, you know, she was a very good woman. And he is going to marry somebody like us. Yeah. But back in the day, she was a very good looking woman. Seriously. A lot of people are shocked when they see pictures of her when she's younger. And look at me. I look like a bag of logs. And she chose me. So that's what it was. So except for a taste of men, she's a good woman. All right, Pearl. Do you mind me sharing something with you? It will take a few minutes. Well, actually, we have callers waiting. I want to get to them. Call back tomorrow and we can talk, OK? All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. Okay. Thanks, Pearl. God bless. All right. Now, let's get to the next longest waiting is Phillip from Indiana. Phillip, welcome. You're on the air. Hi. How are you doing? Hi. Thank you. First, like I said, this is a huge blessing to come across your station. I'm a service technician in the fueling industry, and it is sometimes hard to find Station so I just start seeking hit the seek button and yours came up as soon as I left the job site on my three-hour drive home and I I just feel yeah, I've had a couple questions that I feel like you're you're the guy to talk to so The the first question I had is with her Cameron talking about the nihilism I've heard the word used before and I've not had a whole lot of time to realize watched the video today just before schedule. What exactly is annihilationism and what exactly is the harm with it? And please excuse my ignorance. You're breaking up. I want to know. Sorry. It's called annihilationism. or conditionalism. And I've written, I don't know if you've heard of my website, karm.org, but I've written about 182 articles related to disannihilationism. Most of them are just word studies where I did some serious studies. Annihilationism is the teaching that when someone dies, their eternal judgment is non-existence. So instead of continuing on in eternal punishment, they are annihilated. They cease to exist. And this is what Kirk Cameron has just apparently updated or adopted. Excuse me. Well, I've talked to Kirk a few years ago. So I had his cell number. And I texted him this morning and said, hey, Kirk, man, this is Matt. Let's talk about this if you're interested. So we'll see if he responds. And I'd like to talk to him about it, because it's a bad view. It's a false view. And there's some logical as well as difficult problems. Yeah. And in the video he posted, does he state why he's come to that? Because I guess by hearing you explain what it is, it really shocks me for him to kind of take that view as, I mean, he was a name in our household growing up that it was kind of someone we really looked up to. Yeah, he's a good man. I've talked to him, and he's a very godly man. I will just say that flat out. Our conversations, I won't tell you what our conversation was years ago, but I was very impressed with him in that conversation and his holiness before God. So absolutely, he's a good man and trustworthy. And now, just so you know, annihilationism does not mean someone's not a Christian. You can have that view. It's an incorrect view. You can have that view and still be saved. And so I don't doubt his salvation at all or his dedication to the Lord Jesus Christ. But it's, in my opinion, annihilationism is a feel-good theology because the idea of eternal torment is just very difficult for people to deal with. And so what they'll say, in some reasons, and some will try and make it biblical, too, in that I can get into this in details, but at any rate, so there are logical problems, which I present to the annihilationists, and they're not able to answer them. And at least, let me just put it this way, their answers aren't very good. They try and answer them, they claim they can answer them, but they're logistically problematic. because there are some serious issues. For example, I did intensive and extensive studies on the word punishment, and there's forms of that in Hebrew and Greek in the Old New Testament. And punishment is always experienced. So to say that punishment is being annihilated, that's nonexistence, you don't experience anything. So how is punishment really nonexistence? Because punishment is experienced. This is just a basic biblical principle. So what the annihilationists are saying is the punishment is you not existing anymore. The judgment. And I say, well, that's not punishment. That's just nothing. You're not punished into nothingness. There's no experience. There's no actuality. There's no nothing. So how's the punishment? Because that's not the biblical model. and then they have the words destroy and Luo and Fiume. They have different things that they will use in different ways and I show them how the words have many meanings in different contexts and even how the words, I can get into a lot of details, but it's problematic, okay? All right? And maybe I'm, hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn, but I'm hearing that explanation of it it kind of goes along with some of the stuff i've seen with some personal leaders in my life that i've seen that it seems like the enemy is definitely definitely attacking people that i've always looked up to as being strong leaders and kind of it almost seems like it's kind of like weakening their their mindset of of good and evil to make evil seem less like, like less horrible and it scares me. It really scares me. It's true. It's there. Yeah. So my second, I'm hoping this is going to be a quick answer. I know you've got plenty of people waiting with my, the last statement of saying that it kind of scares me seeing good solid leaders that I've looked up to over my years, kind of seemingly starting to fall into some of these just unbiblical traps. I look at my kids. I'm a dad. I've got two young children with my wife. They're the best blessing I've ever had. And I tear up because I never feel like I've really ever deserved them. It's a long story. But with that, what scares me is that I'm not rooted in the word as much as I know I should be to be that leader, to make sure that I'm not leading them astray. What do you recommend doing as far as how to get in more to study it, not just read it like a book, but to study it effectively? How old are your kids? Just curious. Um, the youngest are eight and 10 and then I adopted my wife's two teenagers whenever we first got married and so they're 24 and 22. Okay. All right. Um, well let me just tell you what do you do? Uh, I'm not the best example of that. My children, um, have abandoned the faith and, uh, One of them has done horrendous things with her life. And so I can't speak from confidence. This is how great things are going to be. I have talked to others who have led their children, their families in the Lord and have abandoned the faith as well. So I don't know what's going on, but nevertheless, what your responsibility is as a Christian man, I can tell you this, biblically, is to lead your family in the ways of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what I did, but we're gonna fail. And you are responsible as the head of the house, whether you like it or not. You're the captain of the ship. When Adam and Eve were in the garden, she sinned first, then Adam sinned. They both hid themselves. The pre-incarnate Christ came and said to the man, where are you? He didn't say Eve, what have you done? He didn't say Adam and Eve, what have you done? He said to the man, where are you? Because we as the head of the family are responsible. So what you got to do is get on your knees and just ask God to strengthen you and to lead you through the foolishness of your own sin, and somehow to lead your family properly. But you've got to understand something. I've talked to so many people about this over the years, that our responsibility as fathers is not to be perfect. We try, but boy do we fail. and that we ask God to help and to guide and let them see your failures, let them see your mistakes in the sense of before the Lord. Yeah, I made a mistake here and I talked to Jesus and I'm forgiven, I'm working here. Things like this that are good and wise for them to see. and lead them in devotions. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have a master of the divinity or be ordained. You don't need that. You need to open the word and just lead them through stories. Lead them through that. And just try. And just ask God to guide and to anoint your words. Let them see the love you have for them. Let them see it and experience it. We are out of time. There's the music, and I'm really sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to take off. No, it's okay. I didn't mean to take off. It's okay, brother. It's okay. Call back tomorrow, okay? Call back tomorrow. We can talk some more. I will. I appreciate you, and you have a great night. You too, brother. God bless. All right. Hey, folks, that's just how it goes. May the Lord bless you by His grace. Back on here tomorrow, we'll talk to you then. Another program powered by The Truth Network.