I think, Joseph, when I was writing this and sending it to you and Ethan, I thought of you, and I thought, well, Joseph's gonna love speaking on this. This is obviously something you deal with often. You're not just a Spanish pastor, you are a licensed therapist, and so you are well-versed on this particular topic. And tonight, we're gonna be talking about manipulation. Manipulation, I'm going to go and give my thoughts quickly on what I think it is. Joseph, you give me your thoughts. They don't have to be the same as mine. Mine might be more of a perspective from the ministry side, and yours might be more on the counseling side. But I have always seen manipulation as the effort of someone to control another person. Now, that control manipulation can be through influence or through outright control, where one, it looks like a mentorship, right? Sometimes manipulation can present itself as mentorship, discipleship, but it's not. It's manipulation. They're just going about it, you might say, with a softer touch. or it's outright control. These are the guys who are manipulating their wives, their girlfriends, their children. And these are the abusive relationship scenarios where everyone with a pair of eyes can see it. Whereas the influence, it's still manipulation, but it's harder to catch. Either way, I say that manipulation, whether through influence, soft, or control on a harder side, is basically the desire of the one controlling the other to get them to do things they don't want to do or to be someone they don't want to be. So if I'm manipulating someone, I want them to do something they don't want to do, but I want them to do it, I'm going to influence or control them to do that. If I don't like who they are and I want them to be someone else, I'm going to use influence, the softer touch, or control, the harder touch, to get them to be someone they don't want to be. but I want them to be. So that's my definition of manipulation. We're going to talk briefly about the dangers. Obviously, I think we all know manipulation is bad, but do we really know why? Joseph, give us your thoughts on either agreement or adding to or something different on your definition of manipulation. No, I totally agree in a sense that Manipulation looks exactly like that. It's a level of control, whether it looks stylistically different, whether it's through a behavior, whether it's try to set up or prepare a facade of feelings. It's the whole point. It's control of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. The one thing is sometimes the manipulation, it seems as always in a negative light, in a sense that the person's intentionally doing it because they despise the other person, they don't like the other person. And a lot of times, I think we're talking about it's an unmet need. And although it doesn't justify the manipulation, it doesn't justify the behavior, sometimes there can be a well-intentioned behind it. They're just lost in some way. I think a lot of leaders, and we're all pastors, so let's talk on that side. I think a lot of leaders don't really know how to lead through influence, and instead of manipulating someone to be or do something they don't want to be or do, the leader should be showing them the better path. But then a good leader shows and then gives influence, but not influence to manipulate, influence to illustrate, to disciple those who want to take the better path, not force it on them. Some leaders, I think, just don't know how to do that. And so all they're left with is manipulation. And as you just said, I think they have good intentions. This pastor, I want to help this person be a better person, be a better dad, be a better mom, be a better Christian. The intention is good, but the technique they're using is manipulative. And the end does not justify the means. It's spot on. It's utilizing. There's a power dynamic that goes with it, too. It's controlling. You're utilizing a lot of times your power, whether it's through a hierarchy and role, whether it's status, but it's also power and control. That alone is going to carry on the behavior, the strategy, the technique on how to influence the other person. You're right. It's well-intended. However, the way you're going about it, it's destructive. It can be very toxic. It can be very damaging to relationships at the moment and ongoing. Well, manipulation at its core is a break or breach of trust. So even if you get this person to a better place, supposedly, in their life, as you see that they should be, you've broken their trust along the way. So they've arrived, but they've arrived in the best case, a broken person. They've arrived with broken trust. They've arrived not because they themselves have made these choices, but because you've made the choices for them. They've basically been dragged there. They haven't walked there. And so as a leader, we could say, look at all the successful stories of people that I've brought to a point of success. But if they're mentally, emotionally, spiritually broken because of the process by which you brought them, Is that really success just because they seem to have arrived in this better place? People who have been manipulated are usually less likely to trust anyone else in the future. They're also more likely to walk away from where they arrived when it dawns on them what happened and never go back. And also, if it's not those things I've seen, they are more easily manipulated by the next person around. So if you use manipulation to get someone to this point, someone else can use manipulation to get them somewhere else. And so manipulation could bring someone to a place that you think is good for them. It doesn't mean they're good when they got there, and it doesn't mean they'll stay there, and it doesn't mean they'll trust you ever again because of how they got there. I like what you mentioned, Pastor Russ, because you're right. Manipulation is a one-time thing. It's a rupture, not just that person's way of being, their self-esteem, but their perspective on future relationships. Manipulation is going to change the way people perceive attachment, the way they connect or reconnect, how they reattach with other people. It's going to be completely changed. It's going to be completely altered because it's not a one-time thing. It's actually, in the clinical field, we consider manipulation a part of an abusive cycle, the cycle of violence that we consider. And so in a relationship, whether it's minimizing feelings, whether it's using children, whether it's through fear, intimidation, it's all part of the same cycle. Manipulation is the one that carries it. And you're right, it is going to always have an effect on future relationships and how the person reattaches or attaches to other people. Okay, so there are seven techniques of manipulation. Now, I'm sorry, eight, excuse me, eight that we're listing. I've looked at various lists. Their list is upwards to 20. You've probably done a lot more study on this, Joseph, than I have. I have done some study, I've done some look into this, and I've experienced a lot of people trying to manipulate me. I gotta be honest, in my life, before I really understood what this was, I was trying to manipulate others. I've seen other people manipulate. So whether it's through experiential or academic, A lot of the lists that are higher than like 9, 10, 12, Joseph, you give me your thoughts, but I just feel like they're repeating the same techniques, but kind of giving them a different name, or they're subcategories of the same technique. I'm not saying there aren't more than the eight that I'm going to list. I just don't know that there are, you know, 20 really strong techniques of manipulation, but that is my opinion. I am willing to be wrong. I just haven't, I haven't seen like 20, you know, great overly used techniques. I've seen these eight used often. So I'm going to give the eight, and then I'm going to give you a chance, Joseph, to add. We're not going to get to all eight today, but to add one or two or three maybe that you're thinking are missing. I'd love to hear that because this is all unscripted. I give these guys the topic, I gave them the eight techniques, and that's it. They don't have verses, they don't have conversations. I don't want to come up here and these guys just parrot what I've told them to say. I want them to give their experience, their thoughts, their research, their beliefs, and we're talking about this together. It's not just me talking through these guys because I gave them a list of things. Here's the eight techniques. Number one, fear. You mentioned fear. I think that's easily the strongest one and often the first one that is used in manipulation, fear. And that would be whether it's causing fear in their life because of what I'm going to do to myself, or what I'm going to do to you, or what I'm going to do to people who you love or who love you, right? There's different ways to instill fear. And it's not always, I'll hurt you, because some people don't care if you hurt them. But it's, I'll hurt me, and that scares them. I'll commit suicide. I'm going to cut myself. I'm going to run away. Or I'll hurt the people who love you. So fear is a big one. Number two, the opposite, if that doesn't work, you try love bombing. And that is essentially just saturating the person with acts of what seems to be genuine kindness, but there is a motivation behind it. They want something from you. They're always getting you things, always doing things for you, always telling you how much they care about you. But then at some point, sooner than later, there's going to be an ask. And if you don't respond to that ask, they'll either use a different technique or walk away from you because you can't be manipulated. But love bombing. Number three. Moving the goalposts, and that's essentially, here's all I want from you, you get to that point, well actually I want this, you get to that point, and they just keep pushing the boundary, and the further they move the goalposts, the closer they get you to who or what they want you to be or do. Number four, lies and deception. Not that every liar is a strong manipulator, or let's say, Joseph, a good manipulator, I mean we all have the ability to manipulate, but when I say lies and deception, I mean this person, in my opinion, doesn't lie or deceive often. They're not a pathological liar. They only do it when they need to play that card to get something from someone. There are people who lie just to lie. That is not what I'm talking about here. There are people who lie because they don't want to be in trouble. No, this person actually will get in trouble if it gets to their end game. They don't really care so much about being in trouble as they do about getting what they want. And so lying or deceiving to achieve the goal. Number five, playing the victim. A person who's a manipulator is usually borderline, if not outright, a narcissist. In my opinion, a narcissist is almost always a manipulator, if not every time a manipulator. But playing the victim is a narcissist's behavior, and this person is very good at it. They are never the bad guy. And even when they are the bad guy, they're not the really bad guy. They're the bad guy in the movies, Ethan, where you kind of like the bad guy. Like, oh, it's not his fault he's the bad guy. Someone forced him into that path, right? And we can sympathize with the bad guy. He's not the evil bad guy. He's the bad guy you like. So if they're going to be bad, they're going to be the victim. Like, I got here because of what someone did to me. But that's not usually their game. They're usually not the bad guy. And then number six, flattery. This is not love bombing. This is not the overt acts of kindness or generosity. This is just complimenting someone on the things that they want to see more of. So if you're really good at a lot of things, they're not going to compliment you on that if they don't want you to be those things or do those things. But they will compliment you on the things they want you to do and do more often. And then triangulation, this is an interesting word, but that's basically bringing in a third party to join them and so it's a two versus one scenario. So if I'm trying to manipulate Joseph and it's 1v1, you know, Joseph's opinion is technically as strong as mine, I'm going to bring Ethan into it and say, well, what does Ethan think? I'm not stupid enough to bring Ethan in unless I know Ethan already agrees with me. But if I am that dumb, or if Ethan changes his mind and Ethan doesn't agree with me, I'm gonna push Ethan out immediately and bring in Scott or Sam, who does agree with me, or I'll keep bringing someone until it is a 2v1 scenario. And then Joseph thinks, well, majority rules, right? So if Ethan and Russ both think this, I must be the one wrong. A manipulator will often manipulate the third person to get them on their side. So if Joseph's the one being manipulated, his enemy is not Ethan. Ethan is also being manipulated. I'm the enemy. I'm the one manipulating both of these guys. Ethan against Joseph. And then the last one, isolation. I didn't put these necessarily in the order that I think they're used because I honestly would say isolation is probably a lot further up the top than last. The best way to manipulate someone is to make them feel isolated like there's no one in their life that they have no support. They're gonna eliminate first and foremost family, parents, any father or mother figure that especially is a strong father or mother figure that has wise advice. A manipulator doesn't want you hearing wise advice from strong loving authority figures. So they're going to eliminate, sever that relationship by probably saying bad things about them, making them look bad, by making it like, well, you have to choose between your mom or me or your dad or me. If you really love me, then you wouldn't love them because they don't like me, true or not. So they're going to isolate you, and then you're just set up for all these other techniques. So those are the eight that I've got. Ethan, I'm going to come to you in a second, but I told Joseph I'd give him a chance to add. You can't take any of this away, Joseph. I want to include all of these, but you're welcome to add to some. I'm fortunate, I'm actually very impressed with his list because everything else is honestly just deeply rooted from these things. And so they look stylistically different. These are actually core, I'm thinking about the cycle of just like abuse and manipulation. They're all, all of these go fall in their own little section of the pie and you can branch out. So I essentially, due to human behavior, due to dynamics, he brought up triangulation. That's a clinical term. that we use at home. It's well done. So the reality is sometimes we overcomplicate things by trying to figure it out. These are actually core things that will describe person-to-person dynamics. Yes, we will. I don't think we have to just add stuff. We don't. Good job, Russ. Good job, Pastor. I appreciate that. Ethan, you haven't said anything yet. He's just listening over here. Teenagers. are very good at manipulation. And it's not just other teenagers. Teenagers, I think, are more talented now at manipulating adults than they were when I was young. And my friends were pretty good at it, got to admit. My friends knew how to manipulate their parents. I feel like with social media and the access to the world through the internet, teenagers are just so much better equipped to manipulate than ever before. But I don't think. that teenagers would call it manipulation. I don't think a lot of them know what they're doing. Like we started, Joseph said, a lot of people want to get you to this place for the common good. But they don't necessarily recognize that manipulation is unhealthy. And I don't think teenagers realize that. Some do. Many do not. I'm curious your take, working with teenagers, on how you see it play out in the lives of children and teens towards each other and adults. I mean, unless they're someone who's fully devoted to Christ, it is very—manipulation for them is literally just—it all just points back to, what can I do to make my situation better for me? So, I mean, you think of, like, the Christian life is, you know, we want to be transformed—transformation through Christ, transformation in Christ through Christ. Then you have the idea of pride. Well, the pride is opposite. Pride is the confirmation, you forming whatever you want, or manipulation, you getting the life that you want any way that you possibly can. And I mean, literally, we see that with students in our school once in a while, just teens in general. What do you find to be the result of teenagers who've been manipulated by other teenagers? Immediate mistrust. They don't have any close friends. Everybody is a face value friend, that's it. Have you experienced, you're the youngest up here, manipulation in your own life by leaders, pastoral or otherwise, that you didn't see until later, and you look back and say, wow, that was manipulation? Am I allowed to ask? Wait a second. He opened the door. I'm just kidding. Yes, 100%. Not here, though. Not here. I like my job. Not here, but I've seen... So, places I worked before... You're talking about for pastors? Either way. It doesn't matter. I'm just curious if you've seen it in your own life. Actually, I feel like even in the retail space, there's a lot of checks and balances. There's a lot more, honestly, than there are in churches for people to not get away with that stuff. There's a reporting system. They can talk to the boss. There's HR, whatever. But within churches, I mean, I've Whether it's not myself, I've definitely seen it happen to my friends where they have pastors who, you know, they leave and then they talk to me about what happened at the church I was at. Oh, dude, this guy's manipulating you. One of my really good friends. Yeah, it happened. Pastor totally tried to Triangulation. I didn't learn that term until you said that today. I'm like, oh, what is this? Oh, cool. But literally didn't do that. Literally did that with my friend. Worked at a really massive church. And yeah, it happens all the time because especially with someone who has some level of vulnerability, whether that's a lack of experience, lack of knowledge, anybody with vulnerability has a high chance for manipulation. Okay. What's the point of tonight's conversation, guys? Twofold. Number one, I want you to know these techniques well enough that you can recognize immediately if someone's trying to manipulate you, because again, Good intentions or not, manipulation harms you. Number two, I want you to ask yourself, have you been using these techniques and not even knowing it? Because the people you're using them against, you are harming them. So let's go to our first techniques, and that is fear tactics. So fear tactics, I've already briefly described it. Joseph, I'll let you. since I've been talking a lot. You take it from here. Go ahead and give us your thoughts on fear tactics. I put it at the top. I would say if it is not the top mostly used, it is definitely at the top, one of the top mostly used techniques for manipulation. I'll let you get us started on your thoughts on fear tactics. Yeah, it's actually, as we're sharing, something that I, when I became a youth pastor, that was the philosophy of how to get to be a pastor. It's use fear intimidation, so threats, right? How do I control your way of doing things? Because what happens, it changes the way you view yourself. your purpose. And so you start asking questions. If I don't meet these requirements or these demands, am I worthy enough of where I am? Where do I stand? And so my expectations are based on the demands and threats that come from the person trying to manipulate me, trying to put these things. And so you view yourself in a way of Did you find yourself repeating that behavior and using fear tactics to manipulate as you yourself were manipulated? Exactly what I was going to lead to. And so what happens, these are learned behaviors, and you start to incorporate expectation as a way of leadership, a way of teaching others. And so it's inherited, right? So If I'm under, again, it's hierarchy, right? So if the pastor, the leader, again, power and control, that person has the power and control to influence. If I get to a point where now I believe that's truth, and I believe my requirement is to teach truth, I'm gonna teach in the same exact way. And so as a youth pastor, I found myself at one point threatening youth, intimidating the youth that they have to do this if they want to get to a point where they have to, and essentially it was my needs and my insecurity as a leader. Before we go any further, we've got a bunch of men here, and I'm looking out here, most are dads. If not dads, they've got people in their life where they have some authority over. I'm looking at people who own their own businesses, people who are supervisors, people who are dads. What is the difference between using fear tactics to manipulate and using justice and judgment to discipline? Because it seems like there's a fuzzy gray line there. We're like, well, wait a second. You're just describing consequences for bad choices, then. Am I not allowed to, as a teacher, give a detention? Am I not allowed to, as a dad, have them stand against the wall as a supervisor? Can I not state, fix this or you're fired? Because if we take that away, then who's running the show, right? I mean, people can do whatever they want. So Joseph, what are your thoughts on the difference between justice and judgment in forms of discipline and fear tactics for manipulation? Well, essentially, discipline should always be done with love, with edification and growth of that person physically, emotionally, spiritually. When it comes to anything else, I'm going to get my needs by no means necessary. And so I'm going to compromise. I'm going to break down the individual regardless of what they are. When you, as a parent, your job is to lead, see where your child fits. How can your child grow through guidance, instruction, and love? This way of fear, it's not. It's my way. I am going to literally get you on me no matter what, regardless of what you're doing. In a simple term. That is great. So Joseph is saying on one side of the line, you've got discipline because I love you and I want you to see the better path. Fear tactics is, I love myself. As Ethan said earlier, I want what you can give me. I want you to be what I think you should be. And so one is about the other person, one is about you, but they could still look both the same. Even though your motivation for each is different, doesn't mean I see your motivation. And you could use the same discipline, and one is manipulative with fear, and one is loving discipline. So outside of that, I would add, and I'm not saying that what you're saying is wrong. I think it's a great foundation to start with. I would say that when it comes to discipline, discipline needs to be the natural consequences that justly, you might say, fit the crime. Whereas fear, when it comes to manipulation, is often way overblown. Someone does something minor, and you're talking major consequences. Someone says, hey, I can't call you tomorrow, and you use some major fear tactic to get them to call you tomorrow, or I can't do that. So fear is often really far-fetched. If it looks like a punishment, it does not fit the crime, whereas true justice fits the crime and is done for the benefit of that person showing them the natural real-world consequences of bad decisions. Why? Because we don't want our young sons and daughters to grow up thinking they can do what they want without consequence. We don't want our students at our school growing up thinking they can do and say whatever they want without consequence. So there are consequences now in the lives of children and teenagers to prepare them for real life. And real life is when you are a supervisor or owner of a company, the real life is I can't keep you on our payroll. if you don't do the job, that's the real life consequence. It's not a threat, it's not fear tactics, it's hey, this is reality. Either you gotta do what you gotta do or you can't work for me anymore. So that would be, I think, how it's applied differently on top of what you said, one is love and as Ethan said, one is self-love. And attention is different. It doesn't matter about you right now. I gotta get my needs met as opposed to I want you to get to this point where you can flourish. Okay, Ethan, any thoughts on the difference between using fear techniques to manipulate versus just applying justice as a form of discipline? You know, I see a lot of, I feel a lot of parents who maybe grew up in a stricter Christian home might struggle with the idea of fear tactics because that's the way they learn correction, but then they truly love their child, and so then the lines are blurred. So, I mean, outside of in my first thought was, how do you help someone see that? Well, the first thing is, you know, if you have families in your church, provide, you know, if there's an example there, I mean, use that family as an example. And if there's not, then accountability, saying, just asking the question, Do you believe that's truly loving your child? Is that the most loving thing you can do to your child in that moment? Because outside of that, it really becomes an intention question. Because it is possible to be a parent who truly loves your child, but because behavior is learned, like you said, there's pastors out there who say the best way to correct your child in any situation, every situation, the best way, spank them. Corporal punishment. Corporal punishment right away. And there's always another way. Almost always. Not to say that corporal punishment is neither biblical nor never an effective way, depending on the age or the situation. But that's not what we're really discussing right now. I want to say this as well. When it comes to manipulation, manipulation isn't about the love for that person. And if you watch long enough, you will find that the person who you thought loved you will not love you if they cannot manipulate you. Whereas if the consequences given out of justice by a parent, a Christian, a boss, whatever, the love will still be there, even if the consequence didn't attain what that person was hoping to teach you. So if I give a detention to a student, and they still are goofballs, and they still don't learn the lesson, if I stop loving them, then whether I thought it or not, I was trying to manipulate them with detentions. But if I give them a detention, and they don't change their behavior, but I still love them, it's more likely that what I was doing was trying to show them real world consequences. Punishment fitting the crime unfortunately you didn't learn it so now I got a you know step up my game Because I'd rather them learn it now, but if I still love them regardless then it's less likely manipulation And it's children student you want to create as even as dads we stand all three was dead. We want to create teachable moments and And Teachable Moments allows a dialogue, we're understanding why that consequence was put in place. As opposed to a manipulation where it's focused on me, it's all based on blame and shame to get exactly what I wanted. The child often is left, I received this with no direction. I have no idea what just happened, or am I able to process, I speak to a lot of teens, but a lot of times a narrative gets created, am I loved, am I worthy of So that's great, because that's what I'm saying. If you're applying discipline, but the student or the child, whoever it is, knows that you love them, then their action isn't going to change your love for them. Then the discipline can't be manipulated, because your love is offered either way. The discipline can only be a lesson, a life lesson that they either learn or don't learn. But it's not, I'm trying to change you or force you to be or do something I want you to be or do, because I'll love you no matter what. All right, I've got a verse here. We've been just talking the whole time. I do have a verse, 2 Timothy chapter one, it's a verse I'm sure you will all recognize as soon as I start speaking. The Bible tells us, this is, by the way, this is Timothy being written a letter by Paul, and he's basically giving him advice about how to handle relationships within the church. And then it gets to verse seven, it says, for God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind. So if we as leaders are not supposed to have the spirit of fear, why would we impart the spirit of fear on someone else? Why would we use fear to control people when God is so very obviously telling us fear doesn't come from Him? So if we are using fear to get people where we want them to go, that is not godly or biblical, therefore it is not healthy or successful. God doesn't want us living in fear, and as pastors, and as leaders, as husbands, and as fathers, as men who work with, over, and under others, we should never use fear, or want others to be in a state of fear. When I impart discipline on someone, it is not to scare them, it is to give them a life lesson. And hopefully, something will click, and that life lesson will be applied, and they'll say, you know what, there's a better way, but not so that they live in a constant state of fear, because I would not want anyone to live in a constant state of fear. Joseph, thoughts? Look, through God's creation, through God's creation of us, we can't learn through fear. Our brain literally gets to a point where it locks up. It can't access the information that you want to teach. It can't feel the love that we're offering. So even through God's design of us as human beings, it dysregulates us when fear is exactly what's presented, right? It's not, it's through a calming love, whether it's through instruction and discipline, that people can actually understand and process. So there can never be no healthy connection or attachment if fear is the foundation of your dynamic. Ethan, any final thoughts? Just on fear specifically. I use this illustration a lot because it's very true. If you kick a dog enough times, eventually it's going to bite you. And if you mentally, emotionally, spiritually kick a person enough times, eventually they'll either fight back or they'll just break down or run away. I mean, there's only negative options that are going to come out of manipulating somebody through fear. Well, I was right. We didn't finish tonight. Love Bombing is a really good one, too. It is, but we're unfortunately going to have to save that for another time. We just do not have time tonight. Ethan's going to go and shut down the live stream. We're going to continue the conversation with those in the room. We've got a handful of guys here, and we're going to talk tonight with those here about the technique of fear. So men, hopefully you have a better idea of fear versus, again, life lessons. We all have people in our lives that have taught us life lessons through justice, and we've probably all applied life lessons to others through justice. That does not mean you are manipulating them. As long as you understand the difference between manipulation using fear and love offering justice, and make sure you stay on the right side of that. And the best way is you love the person whether they respond to the life lesson or not. Because if you stop loving them, you are much more likely a manipulator than you are a lover. Okay, thank you for joining us tonight. We will see you again next month. There are no more men's groups the rest of this month due to all of the events surrounding Christmas. We hope you have a great night and a great month.