Mass Members Podcast, Episode 63, Part 5, Statement 4. Today we're talking about the Passion of Christ. Stick around. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. Amen. Well, gentlemen, we come to statement number four on Jesus's passion. Last week we covered the virgin birth, and so we're going to do this in four headings. Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, or was dead, and was buried. So let's get into the statement. Why are all four of these things here beginning with suffered under Pontius Pilate? Why is this significant? What would you guys say? Well, this is the heart of the gospel and Christ was incarnate for the purpose of coming to die and suffer. And so An orthodox statement about Christianity must have this in there. Otherwise it ceases to be Christianity. Christianity is a redemptive religion. Now in one sense I wish they would have added a few more words to this. Yeah, like what? Like for us and our salvation, Christ did this, which the Nicene Creed does, right? Yeah, it does. But that would bring more clarity to the substitutionary aspect of Christ's sufferings. But Anyway, that's obviously the reason why it's here, but then you get specific into the suffering under Pontius Pilate, which is an important historical note that ties the crucifixion of Christ into historical reality with a governor who's well-known. Or is that the right term? A prefect, I guess? Yeah. Procurator. Procurator? How do you pronounce that word? I don't think it was a procreator. That's funny. Oh, that's funny, Ron. We talked about that last week. Come on. Okay, okay. What would you call him? What was the first word you used? Pilot. Pardon me? I'm having trouble pronouncing this word. How about we just call him Mr. Pilate? Mr. Pilate, okay. I'm afraid to say it now that we've messed around with the word. A Roman pontiff or prefect or governor, some figure that people can look at in history in other sources and see that truly there was this figure who was overseeing Jerusalem at that time. whom Jesus was crucified underneath. Yeah, suffered under Pontius Pilate. I do like that it has this historical comment in there, suffered under Pontius Pilate. And I think it helps us to see that it is historical. It seems like every Christian, I shouldn't say every Christian, it seems like a lot of Christians go through this phase. I think especially if they're converted later, this is my experience, so I'll speak for myself, that they want to understand the historical Jesus. Did you guys ever go through that phase? I feel like when I was first converted, I really wanted to understand and be able to argue apologetically from the historicity of scripture. And this is one of the main points that actually is pretty significant. Because throughout history, people have questioned, oh, it doesn't seem like Pontius Pilate was alive during Jesus's time. And so there's a discrepancy in the history between the Bible and archaeology. But it seems that time and time again, the discoveries have proven that Pontius Pilate was actually a ruler during this time under the Caesar. And even, I think you mentioned it beforehand, Luke, that it was actually one of the historians, his name is Techitus, mentions that Jesus, who he calls Christus, from whom he had his name and origin suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilate. He says this and he wrote in 116 AD. So not long after the resurrection, we're just talking like 70, 80 years afterward. So it's pretty significant historically. And so even if you look at like, I think Gary Habermas in his book on the case for the resurrection or Lee Strobel, you know, he's trying to see a journalistic take on whether or not the resurrection really happened. They'll often point out the fact that this is historically proven that Jesus suffered at the hands of Pontius Pilate. Good. Are there any other comments you guys would want to make about this idea that Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate? No, I agree that it's critical that we have that. We discussed this earlier, that historical marker that Jesus is not only God before time, he's God in time, through the incarnation. And this was part of that predetermined plan to bring him to the cross, using a governor, a ruler to try him. I do, I do like that. And that Peter uses some, he uses lawless men into the hands of lawless men, but he using, it's God's plan, but he's using somebody in history. And it's Peter's talking to the Jews, but there is responsibility for the people who have crucified Christ. He died, he suffered under Pontius Pilate. And that's your fault. I do like that responsibility. Yeah. That's good. You know, it's hard to have a podcast without getting into a deep theological discussion. So when it says suffered, how how can God suffer at the hands of a man? What would you guys say here? Maybe Mr. Doctor over here, Dr. OK, well. You know, actually, this suffering was at the root of Arian controversy, you might say, because Arius didn't want to deny that Jesus suffered, but he also understood that God can't suffer. And so that means Jesus must not be God. Which I agree with one component of that is that God can't suffer. That is to be acted upon by outside to experience the change that comes with suffering. But that is the point of the incarnation is that God actually incarnated, so assumed a human nature in the second person of the Trinity to do what he could not do, which is to suffer. And so when it says suffering, he suffered in his human nature. even though that human nature was inseparably united to his divine nature. That's good. Well, when we think about, I think that's spot on. I had a follow up question, if that's okay. Yeah. For the theologians in the room. When we're thinking about the passion of Christ, his suffering, at what point would you say, is there a point that his suffering began? You know sometimes we talk about the active obedience of Christ and the passive obedience of Christ and often times his whole passion is wrapped up in the passive obedience, wouldn't you say? That his sufferer died. Where would you say his passive obedience began? You know if we use those terms of him giving himself over for us. Well I must confess in my earlier years I mistakenly thought the passive obedience was regarding his passion at the cross and that was the emphasis I gave it. And a lot of commentators do give it that emphasis but I've since come to realize that his passion in the truest sense began with his birth. The humble birth. And it continued. Now, several years there, we don't know what his life was like, but basically the opposition against him, the suffering, the rejection, all of that, all through his ministry up to the cross and through the cross, I think all of that included in his humanity anyway, his passion, that passive obedience. That's great. So you wouldn't make a distinction between a part of his life being active and a part of it being passive, but it's all conjoined together? Yeah, but you definitely need to stress both. I wouldn't want to eliminate one or the other, but they are definitely working together. He's actively obedient, but in his act of obedience he's also suffering. I hope I haven't created any heresies in saying that. Sounds great. It seems like the classic reformed categories are his state of humiliation, which began at his incarnation. Yeah, I thought I think it's interesting with Pontius Pilate and I hadn't thought about this till I read the the passage in John Pilate said to him behold the man that's that famous saying echo homo We have behold your God and then behold the man I wonder if the spirit is bringing that out of the scriptures because that's the emphasis here is It's the suffering in his humanity, behold the man. And he definitely did suffer in his humanity. That's good. So suffering in Apaches Pilate was crucified, point two here. Is there a significance of it being a crucifixion and not some other form of death? What would you guys say about the significance of the crucifixion? Let me put this another way. Could Jesus have just been stoned to death? Thoughts? Well, the way the Gospels read, it seems like there's this intentional, whether or not it's consciously or subconsciously, wanting to get him crucified. Now, they would say, well, we don't have anything in our law that can condemn him. But I think in their minds, the Jewish leaders specifically, they had Deuteronomy in the back of their mind, knowing that if he's crucified, this is it. He's cursed. by God, and everybody will know he was a sham, and I think that's leading this whole thing. That's in their minds, but we know there's, in God's ironic fashion, an amazing theological truth there that is taking place. So why did you connect cursing and Deuteronomy together? Deuteronomy, don't have the exact reference on hand, but it says if anybody's hung on a tree, he's cursed by God. And so that is part of the law. And so it's a declaration that this person is condemned by God in the sight of God. And that then gets read into the crucifixion. Paul picks up on that, quotes it in Galatians 3, as he became a curse for us. suffered under the curse of the law. That's good. So he might receive his blessing. Yeah, that's good. The transaction that happens there. Did you want to pull up the passage, Isaac? I think it's Deuteronomy 21, 23. That sounds right. I have a lot of typos as I type this, though. It's okay. Yeah, so the crucifixion is a significant moment. Anything else you guys would want to add about the crucifixion? Well, let me ask a question, because Jehovah Witnesses don't believe he was pierced. They believe he was hung or tied to a tree. Is that important that he was actually nailed to the tree? Is that an issue at all? They make a big deal out of that, that we we talk about a crucifixion as though he was nailed. Is that was it necessary that it was nailed or So it seems like the scripture foretells that he was pierced for our transgressions. That's what Zechariah says. They'll look upon him whom they have pierced. And there are other scriptures, I believe, that reference piercing. So it has to do with the prophetic vision of Christ. And then we have the reference in John with Thomas, place your hand in my side and The holes, whatever he says there implies some kind of wounds still there that they could see. So it'd be weird to get around that. But they said, they say something about he was on a stake or something like that. It's not even a cross, it's a stake. Yeah. Why did they do that? Do you know? I have no idea. The word, I believe, it's been a long time since I rehearsed this, but I believe the word can be translated, is it steros or something like that? Can be translated steak. I believe that's part of the argument. Yeah, I hadn't heard that. To be fair, why do they do a lot of the things that they do? That's great. That's a great question. It seems like crucifixion, it's so important for us to hold this in mind, not only for the prophetic witness, but also, like you said, in summary, in terms of the law that Jesus was cursed, taking, and this is why we think about his passive obedience, probably primarily in penal substitution, because he took the curse of disobedience so that through his obedience he might give us blessing by faith. You know, 2 Corinthians 5, 21. He who knew no sin became sin so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. So crucifixion is a perfect, I would say, fulfillment of taking the curse in order to give us the blessing. Okay, that's the second. He suffered an apocryphal that was crucified and he died. So Ron, you mentioned that some people don't actually believe He died on the cross. Did you want to expand upon that? It's called the swoon theory, that He just passed out and then they took Him down, He was still alive. I don't have a lot of detail, it's been years since I've studied those different theories, but there are four or five different theories about His death and that's one of them. But that He died in the tomb later? Well, the Swoon Theory would say that he didn't die at all. Okay, and that's how the appearances happened later on? Yes. I can't remember some of the other theories offhand, but I think that's the only one that might claim he didn't actually die. I think docetism, if you've heard of that, they believe that he did not have a real body, which means he was immune from human experiences like hunger, thirst, fatigue, suffering, and death. Okay, so that would be also a misunderstanding of the hypostatic union, that somehow he's not truly man, but he's truly God. That's good. What would you guys say to that? How would you answer those? So I guess to the docetism, we would say he's truly man. So he can suffer and die in his humanity. What would you say to the swoon theory? Why wouldn't that make sense in terms of the account that we have? What do you think Isaac? Yes, he died. The burial, because the scripture said he died. There's the, that pierced the stabbing of him in the side to ensure he died. Oh, and the blood and water come gushing out. Those guys are really good at making sure people are dead. The people, the centurions, they did a lot of crucifixions, I guess. They make sure they don't get off there. That's why they broke the bones of the people. But to fulfill scripture, Jesus' bones weren't broken. They pierced him. and to fulfill the scripture was about the Passover lamb. It couldn't be any broken bones. Yeah. And if I can double down, you said the breaking of the bones, it was a fulfillment of the scripture. Paul also says that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. Yeah. Like all the Bible says he's going to die. He does. Yeah. It's good if he didn't die, then where's the atonement? He didn't raise from the dead either. If he didn't raise from the dead, then our faith's in vain. So he had to have died and rose from the dead and appeared to more than 500 believers, some of whom are still alive. Paul said not today, but then others had fallen asleep. That's good. So he suffered under Pontius Pilate, crucified, died, and finally, fourth point was buried. Why is this so significant to our understanding in terms of an ancient creed? What do you have Pastor Ron? Well it was prophesied that he would be buried in a rich man's tomb. I think Luke mentioned that in our discussion before we started the podcast. He was Jonah was a type of Christ in the grave and seems like that pointed to a burial and the necessity of a burial prior to his resurrection. I'm just thinking off the top of my head. Well, it says you won't receive any sign but the sign of Jonah. When he says that, is he referring to his time in the belly of the whale? Yes. Yeah. I mean the point was the resurrection but he was in the belly of the whale. Christ was in a sense in the belly of the tomb. The picture is there. I think of Romans 6 when Paul's referring to baptism he said you've been buried in the likeness of his death. So the burial shows that he somehow in his death and burial takes on human likeness. And he goes before us to where when we die too we're united with him in his life, death, burial, and then also future hope, anticipation for resurrection on the third day. Yeah, that's really a good point. Our whole union with Christ is based upon a death and a burial and a resurrection. Good. Any final thoughts on this burial? Or questions? Challenging questions, Ron? I always think it's interesting. The woman, there were different anointings by women. It's hard to put them all together in the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus said of the one woman she was anointing him for his burial. That's always been interesting. Did she know what was going on? Was that sort of a prophetic act? I don't know if you have any comments on that, but that just came to my mind earlier when we were thinking about this. She has anointed me for my burial. There must have been kind of a shocking statement to make before the disciples. I mean, he'd already said it two or three times that he was going to be beaten and put to death and that he would rise again. He said that he would rise again on the third day. But just to be anointed by this woman and then make that statement had to be somewhat startling. Yeah, she must have known the scriptures. I would probably been illuminated by the Holy Spirit. And maybe she's probably also heard Jesus speaking about his trek to Jerusalem and how he must be crucified. Yes. There's probably some significance, too, in that he was buried and the location was known at the time. So the ladies followed to find out where he was buried so that they could come bring spices. But because they knew where he was buried, then they were also able to confirm that his body wasn't there on the third day. and which all the disciples saw too. Well, Peter and John saw also an empty tomb, which I think could be verified in those early years with people who were still alive. Hey, the tomb's empty. What do you do about that? And Matthew, I think, tells us that they made up a story as to why the body wasn't there. That his disciples stole it. Disciples stole it, but that was at least key for the disciples initially. We for Jesus, of course, showed himself to them, but for other people who Jesus didn't show himself to, they're like, where's the body? It's an empty tomb. And now I'm thinking going back to the crucifixion itself, he was crucified outside the camp, fulfilling the Old Testament picture of the being an outlaw and being sent out. Exiled. Because it's the author of Hebrews that ends the book with saying, go to him outside the camp. Yes. Right. Yes. He was treated as an outlaw. So then we might be brought in. Yes. Hmm. He died so we might be raised. That's good. Hmm. Well, it's a beautiful picture of our of our savior. Of course, we're coming to the resurrection next week. We'll do statement five on he descended into hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. And so we'll cover both this descent into hell and also the resurrection from the dead on the third day next week. I think we've pretty much covered this. If you have any thoughts, questions, we'd love to hear from you and we'll catch you next week. Thanks for joining us this week.