Hello, you're listening to a podcast of the First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, Mississippi. I'm Kevin Phipps, and I'll be your host for this episode. This is being recorded on Monday, January 13, 2014. Earlier today, I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Derek Thomas to discuss an upcoming Friday Forum on the topic of Christianity and science. Friday Forum is a program of the Young Adult Ministry here at the church. The purpose for Friday Forum is to be a quarterly extended teaching time to enrich and equip young adult lay people at First Press in God's Word. The Friday Forum we are discussing on this podcast will actually take place Thursday, January 16th from 6 to 9 p.m. at the church. Derek couldn't be with us on Friday, so he's coming for a Thursday night. There will be a meal for six dollars. If you're listening to this before January 16th, you can register by calling Shannon Craft at 601-326-9243. Or you can email her at shannonc at fbcjackson.org to sign up. Dr. Thomas is a dear friend of First Pres. He currently serves as a senior minister of First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina. He is also a professor of systematic and historical theology at Reform Theological Seminary. Now I hope you enjoy listening to Dr. Derek Thomas as he briefly lays out some of what Christians might want to think about as they consider the relationship of Christianity and science. Welcome back to Jackson. Thank you, Kevin. It's good to be back and always good to be back speaking to my dear friends at First Christian Church. A disclaimer, first of all, I come as a theologian rather than a scientist. I have a basic knowledge of science that your man in the street has. I did my undergraduate degree in mathematics several decades ago. But I'm not coming as a scientist trying to tell you how to be a Christian. I'm actually coming the opposite way. I'm a professional theologian who I just want to try and help you through the difficulties that you encounter day by day with the world of science. You know, we use the word science very often and we hear it being used very often as something authoritative and almost distinct from everything else. I'm a scientist, meaning whatever I say bears the mark of inviolability and infallibility about it. You may be a philosopher, but I'm a scientist, so I deal with facts. I deal with issues that are beyond any questioning beyond any dispute. And often the word science or scientist is used in that way. And I want to just kind of disabuse folk of the tyranny that I sense when the word science is being used that way. We all come with a bias. We all come with a worldview. We amass data to suit our purpose or the purpose of a collective or some such thing. And at the end of the day, this is a clash often of worldviews, what you do with this data, how do you bring this data to bear on a certain topic. There's an issue about what is the realm of science and what is not the realm of science. Science can often deal with issues of cause and effect or things that seem to happen as a consequence of something else and from which they draw laws. that need to be tested and verified, and that's one thing. And we all trust science to do that. You know, I flew here today in an airplane. I trust science. I trust that this tin box that I was sitting in, that could actually rise to 35,000 feet and land in the midst of a rainstorm in Jackson, Mississippi. I trust that science. you know, when you get into a car and you turn the ignition on, there's an explosion taking place underneath the hood of your car. But you trust the science because it's been tested. But science often goes beyond that and into areas of, say, origin. Areas, you know, science in and of itself cannot explain origins and You know, when you have a piece of data that can't be repeated and therefore can't be verified, like strata in rocks and so on, you've actually gone a long way from saying, here's an experiment. I can do it 800,000 times and I get the same results. So this looks like a kind of law. And if I'm an atheist, I can call it a law of nature or something like that, but it is a law. And as a Christian, it is part of the world that God has created. It's actually a verification of the order and structure of God himself. As a mathematician, I mean, 2 plus 2 equals 4 because that's the way it is. I explain the rationality of that because this is a rational world created by a rational God. But when you go back to things like origin, say the origin of the universe, and one of the flashpoints in science that we often meet with is creation. How did the world come into being? And, you know, that's not something that can be tested over and over and over and over and come out with the same result. Actually, you've got one set of data to which you're applying, actually, an interpretation, and that's all it is. It's not like the law of gravity. It's not like the law of aviation, that if you travel at a certain speed and the shape of the wing is a certain shape, that it'll force the wing into the air. It'll counter the force of gravity downwards. molecules are passing over the top faster than they are under the bottom, or whatever the explanation is. And therefore there's an upward lift. Now, as you can see, I'm not sure that I understand that, but I trust it, because it's been tested over and over and over. But, I mean, with creation, You can't do that. You've got one set of data, this is the data, and you're applying to it a certain viewpoint. Actually, you can apply several viewpoints and what you find is that even among scientists who often speak as though they are beyond falsification, when it comes to the doctrine of creation or an understanding of how the world came into being, there can often be differences of opinion. What would you say to someone who is genuinely wrestling with these issues? Well, actually a number of things. I actually think that science is only possible because this is an orderly universe. And it is orderly because it is a created universe by a God of order. So actually that gives me a lot of confidence. It doesn't give me any confidence because I'm not a scientist, but it gives me confidence in saying to scientists, yes, you can engage in science and you can do so to the glory of God. In fact, we were created to be explorers. Adam and Eve want to stay in the Garden of Eden forever. They want to go beyond the rivers and explore what was out there. And I think the insatiable appetite that we have for knowledge and for explanation is actually part of our creativeness. So, as a Christian, I would say to a scientist that the work in which you are engaged It's actually valid work. It's exploring God's universe and explaining God's universe. But, I would also say that science needs to be ethical and moral. Just because something is possible doesn't make something right. You can kill someone but it doesn't actually make it right. And you can do all kinds of things in the name of science. And in terms of genetic engineering or cloning or whatever happens to be the current actionable thing, just because it's possible doesn't necessarily make it right. So as a Christian, You know, I must also bring to bear God's laws. I must bring to bear ethics on what I do. And there are areas of research and knowledge which as a Christian I may not be able to do. Well, this is a little taste of what's coming up this Thursday night. Once again, it'll be 6 p.m. in Miller Hall, January 16th. It'll be Friday Forum on a Thursday. If you'd like more information, you can contact the church at 601-326-9243 or you can email Shannon Craft at shannonc at fpcjackson.org. Dr. Thomas, thank you for your time. That concludes this episode. Thank you for downloading this podcast. Remember, you can always find more information and plenty of resources from First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, Mississippi at www.fpcjackson.org.