Many pastors, when they're caught in sin, leave the pulpit but immediately start to figure out how they can go and pastor another church. But aren't there sins that permanently ban you from leading a church? Welcome to The Conquering Truth. I'm Dan Horne. I'm Connor Slim. I'm Charles Churchill. And I'm Joshua Horne. Frequently, when an elder or pastor is caught in sin, that people immediately start to say, when will he get back in the pulpit? If they remove him, they're going, but he has such gifts. He's such a great communicator. He motivates people so well. He's so charismatic. He's drawing people into the church. The church can't lose those gifts that he has because it's just so important. So how soon can we get him back? Frequently, regardless of the sin, yet God cares a lot more about character than he does about gifts. He can equip people however he wants, and he's more concerned that the pastor is saying, follow me as I follow Christ. But how about the case where you have a pastor who does all those things, and then he's actually born again? So is there anything that would cause that person not ever to be allowed to be a pastor of a church? It's important while we consider this that many people, you know, they have their pastors they like, they have their characteristics of people they like, there's things they like to hear. And when considering these things, like you were saying, there's more of hope he repents. I hope he does these things because, you know, I enjoy listening to him. He helped me so much in my growth. And I don't want, you know, this person that I look up to to be, you know, a wolf, somebody that's cast away. And many people are very slow to go to the Bible and look at this, as God has given us standards of how his shepherds, how his pastors are to act. And when we think of that, I mean, his pastors that are real pastors, they act in a certain way because he's the one that appoints them. It says in Ephesians 4, 11 and 12, and he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. So when we think about that person coming back, we have to say, would God actually appoint him? Is this in God's will? Because he does. We can look at 1 Timothy 3. We can look at Titus 1. We can look at these passages and say, these are qualifications. But even in there, there's other places in scripture that just basically says, I will never put him back in that role again. And if God says he won't put him in that role, we shouldn't even start to look at those other qualifications. We should just go, we don't need to look, we don't need to check. Then, you know, and if people are, their testimony is, I just want this person back. I'm not going to look at scripture. If God's the one who gives pastors and you're wanting a pastor that God does not want, you should really check and see if you're of the faith. You should check and see if the church that you're a part of actually worships God or if it's just a man worshiping center. Right. Because so many churches are so focused on worshiping men that in these pastors that come back, that's usually what happens, right, is that that they have a large church. I mean, there's lots of pastors that follow that have small churches, but the ones that you hear about, they have a large church. They go, they maybe leave for a year or two, and then they start their church back up, and half the people follow them, because it's not like now those people go, oh, this is a righteous man. It's that they were idolizing him before, and they continue to idolize him, and they continue to follow him. I think it is important to highlight what that verse said before, which is that God appoints people that to some he called pastors and he called teachers. And it's a work of God. It's a work of Jesus Christ for his church. And so it's really easy for people just to kind of ignore the fact that men are not the ones who authorize a pastor. We are approving of them, but we're trying to recognize a work that God has done. And when the church loses that, it's really dangerous. And so even if, whether it's your presbytery, or whether it's your board of pastors approve somebody, or whether it's your church ordain someone, that there's a part of it where the church has a responsibility to go, is this really a work of God? And that's part of what we're going to talk about, is how God shows what is his work, how he removes his hand, how he shows that this person will never be approved by him again. But it really matters that it's the work of God. Right, and so if you're going, we want this man, that's a problem. If you're going, we want to discover if God has appointed this man, that's what the church should be doing. And so you see that, and historically there's been what's called the internal call and the external call. So the internal call is from 1 Timothy 3.1. This is a faithful saying, if a man desires a position of a bishop, he desires a good work. God is going to tell them that they should do it before the congregation says they should do it. And so if they don't have a desire for it, if they don't think they should be the elder, then they're not called, right? Because it requires, God will reveal his will to them. And so the person, you can desire it for the wrong reason, but if you don't desire it, and sometimes the right reason to desire it is, I don't especially want to, but I look at the people around, and I think I'm the most qualified biblically, I'm not having this great burning desire to be an elder, but I feel like I should be," right? So it doesn't mean that you have like this passion to do it. It means that you're saying, yes, I should be the elder. Matthew Feeney A responsibility is a very valid way of thinking about it. Dr. John Baxter Right. That could be a very valid way that's driving the desire. It doesn't need to be this, you know. Another desire, but if you don't have even that sense of responsibility you're not going to do the work because it's real work and what you end up doing is just abusing the flock because you're not doing it because you're willing to do the work you're doing it because you see advantages in being in that position. Which can be confused with desire by other people very often. Very often. Because they're like, yeah, I really want this. The person who wants to stand in the front and be applauded, he looks like he really has a desire for the office, he really has a desire to preach, can preach really passionately and emotionally. it's all just because he loves people look at him right it can be and you can't tell that externally but the person needs to go yes I believe God has called me to this role and the other part of it is the external call which is the the church calling that person to um to be their elder which is discussed in first timothy 5 22 do not lay hands on anyone hastily nor share and other people since keep yourself pure keep yourself pure." So there it's the church that is laying hands on people, appointing them as an elder, and so the person who has the desire to be an elder can't just now proclaim, I have a desire, therefore I am an elder. He needs to have that external call where people are saying, you meet the qualifications and we're going to choose you as an elder. we meet the qualifications and we believe that God called you, right? Because it's not just, you know, you could have somebody that meets the qualifications and you go, yeah, but I don't want to follow him. Well, that would be an indication that God didn't call you. I mean, the warnings in that passage are really relevant. I mean, don't share in other people's sins, which is kind of what you were talking about. It's very easy for someone's desire to be for something other than a righteous desire, and it's really easy to see. I mean, you know, when the church loses sight of the fact that God sends elders and that God sends them and it becomes man-centered, And then there's a shortage of people. It's really easy as soon as someone has desire to go, oh, this is clearly from God, and you're so desirous of a thing. It's like a young man, he meets a girl that's beautiful, and he's like, I'm sure she's the one I should marry. Well, it's the first pretty girl that's ever liked him. You know what I mean? It's like, I mean, there's this part of it where, I mean... It might be the last. That is certainly his fear, right? And so, I mean, but I mean, there's this part where his parents are looking at it going, don't be stupid. You know what I mean? Don't partake in someone else's sins. I mean, there's very, very similar, I mean, aspects to that is that you can see someone, you can have desires for things, those desires can seem very natural, and it can be very much not from God. And we have to be really careful because you look at some of these, like Mark Driscoll is a good example, right? Mark Driscoll, when he preached, he added this problem that he couldn't control profanity from coming out of his mouth. clearly meant he was disqualified, right? No question. It doesn't mean that he was permanently banned from the pulpit, but he was disqualified. But people joined in his sin because they went, this guy's charismatic, he's going to have a megachurch, we want to be part of a megachurch. And so sometimes joining in the sin is like going, I want to partake of the same sin that he's partaking in. And they accepted and glorified his swearing. You know what I mean? So instead of just even seeing it as sin, they made it in by joining with it. And broader people, too. I mean, Piper came close to that. Other people came. I mean, he spoke against it, but he said, also, this is a wonderful man, you know. And no, it should have been, you're not qualified. And so we should just recognize how easy it is to join in their sin, which is why God's saying, don't be hasty. Don't even just check their motives, check your own motives. Even with that, you know, you look at the qualifications of an elder and if you're in a relatively healthy church, there's probably a lot of people that other than the desire aspect, they may not desire it. But you look at the qualifications, you know, there's a lot of people in a healthy church that meet that. So you need to be very careful that you're not doing it hastily because you could see a lot of people that fit and are qualified and you may want that elder quickly, but they may not be the one. So you need to be careful to examine after and take the time to do that. And the real desire has to be to understand God's will, and that these are just tools that God has given us to help us understand his will. But what's supposed to drive it is understanding his will, which brings us back to what we were talking about, where somebody falls. Ezekiel 34 talks about what God does to people that are false shepherds, when shepherds do certain things. And he says, I'll remove my flock from them. So Ezekiel 34, one through 10, And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord God to the shepherds. Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves. Should not the shepherds feed the flocks? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool. You slaughter the fatlings, but you do not feed the flock. The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick. Nor have you bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away. Nor sought what was lost, but with force and cruelty you have ruled them. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and they became food for all the beasts of the field when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill, yes, my flock was scattered over the whole face of the earth, and no one was seeking or searching for them. Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord as I live, says the Lord God. Surely because my flock became a prey and my flock became food for every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, nor did my shepherd search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed my flock. Therefore, oh shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God, behold, I'm against the shepherd. I will require my flock at their hand. I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more. For I will deliver my flock from their mouths that they may no longer be food for them. There's a point where God's saying, as I live, right? He is making an oath. And he says, I won't give my flock to them. I had them as under shepherds. I'm done. They will not. And now he's talking to Israel, but he's saying the people who do this to his people, and if he did this for Israel, how much more does he do it for the church? We can't like step back and go, well, for Israel, he was going to protect them. And obviously this is messianic, meaning that the chief shepherd's going to come, but he's also looking and saying false shepherds. This is what it looks like. This is why judges are, this is why judge Judah. And when I take my flock from them, I've taken my flock from them. They won't feed themselves on it again. And again, as I live, he's, he's swearing an oath. So would that be saying that anyone who was considered a wolf in a new Testament church, that once they're gone, that is it for them, no matter what. that's what I would argue, is that if you find a wolf in the New Testament church and prove that they're a wolf, you don't, it doesn't mean they can't be saved. This is not the unforgivable sin. When they're discovered as a wolf, they are not saved. They are not saved. But it doesn't mean that there's no salvation possible. They have not sinned the unforgivable sin. Right. And I mean, but then the distinction there is really important because I think, you know, a number of the episodes we've done, people are really leery about the idea of God revealing that someone is not saved. And it's a really, it's a weird, I understand, it's sort of like... It's not weird at all, right? Well, I mean... Meaning they hate the thought that they may not be saved, and they don't want to hear from God that they're not saved, so they say, God can't show this. But what I mean is it doesn't make that much sense from Scripture. That's what I mean. It doesn't make sense if you're looking to Scripture, because the expectation should be a lot of people are not saved. And the expectation should be from Acts 20 that you shouldn't think, oh, my elders, they have to be saved. Or the pastors have to be saved. And if the pastor's not saved, that means this isn't a church. That's not what it says at all. That's not what Paul says to the elders at Ephesus. He goes, there's wolves among you. And some of those wolves, the way that it was, they were probably the only pastor in some of the meetings. But yet, God's not saying they're not the church. He's saying those pastors are wolves. Right. I mean, and part of the reason why I think this is relevant is the church wants false assurances of who they can rely on. And God says, I'm not going to give you false assurances. You have to strip away the false assurances. You have to rely on me. You have to look to me. And I think that there's a part where when the church refuses to do that, the church is going to make excuses and arguments that allow a greater number of wolves to be among them. And I think this verse is really relevant because part of what God says is he does not say, I'm going to stop the false shepherds from trying to draw people to them. He says, I'm going to remove my flock from them, which means he will protect the church from them. But one of the ways he does it is sometimes is by allowing people to continue to go after the false teacher. But it's really important as we look. I mean, we've done other episodes on scandals and how God uses wolves to strengthen his church. This verse is kind of laying out an aspect of that that the church needs to understand. Right, because you can look at somebody like Mark Driscoll, for instance, because he's an example I brought up before, where Mark Driscoll's back to having like a 4,000 person church. It's not Mars Hills anymore. He got thrown out of there. He got forced out of there, but he's created Trinity, I think is the name of the church that he's pastoring now. But who's following him? Well, you should expect it to be goats, not sheep. It doesn't mean that nobody could ever go there that wouldn't do it, but the ones that wanted to get him back as soon as he was restored were the ones that didn't understand who God was in the first place. Well, and what does restored even mean? I mean, I don't think he was restored in any way. Right, restored's the wrong term, right? Yes, he just started up. But they wanted to elevate him again. Elevate him again, yes. They wanted to hold him up in a position and say, we want to follow him. And so as you read that, you know, read Ezekiel 34, and it has a list at the beginning, and I want us to walk through that list of things and just say, okay, so how does this appeal, or how does this apply to the modern church? Because he's going to list and saying, if the shepherds are doing this, I'm going to take the flock from them. And so when you catch the shepherds doing that, you should go, they're permanently disqualified. You know, we were talking about what a blessing it is when a wolf's revealed. Well, we didn't say it that way, I'm saying it that way. You said that people go, you know, God wouldn't do this, but that's actually a great blessing that he does that. And we should recognize this is something that God promised, Christ promised, right? In Luke 12, one through three, in the meantime, when an innumerable multitude of people had gathered together so that they trampled one another, he began to say to his disciples, first of all, where are the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy? That's what God does when he causes that person to get caught in the adulterous affair, right? That thing that was whispered in the room now is shouted from the rooftop. senior pastor that's abusing his staff and parading them and exalting himself above it, when people start to talk about it, that's the fulfillment of that verse. That's what God says, this is how I do it, right? Is that they're trying to do it in the secret place, and I go, no, guess what? I'm gonna make it known. And so when we see those scandals, we should be going, okay, so God is doing Luke 12. What's Luke 12 about? It's about hypocrisy. It's about saying, look at these hypocrites. He says, the Pharisees, they're hypocrites. They're telling you to do one thing, and they're doing different things. In public, they're one. In private, they're the other. When you're looking at these things that Ezekiel is saying, God swore, as I live, when you look at these things, part of the issue is that you should never put them back in the pulpit because they're good at being hypocrites. That's how they got away with it for so long in the first place. They didn't get away with it for so long in the first place because they were openly abusive to everybody. It was that they were pretending to be this kind, gentle person, and then they're caught. They were intended to be this loving person and then they're committing adultery on their wife, right? It's that hypocrisy and somebody who's that skilled in hypocrisy, we can reason and say they should never be back in the pulpit. Now we can go to scripture and say they should never be back in the pulpit. but it's not like contrary to reason. It makes sense, right? The person who's a good hypocrite, the last thing you want to do is go, now I should trust you. Why? How can they ever rebuild that trust? Because you know, they're good at deceiving. You know, they're good at saying one thing and doing another, and you still don't have enough view of their life to know. And so once they prove that they're a dedicated hypocrite, God can save them. When they're a dedicated hypocrite, how can you ever say, yes, we should put them back in the pulpit? And, you know, when we're talking about that type of sin, there is just a dramatic revelation of hypocrisy. I mean, that's someone where you can tie it back to those elder qualification passages, 1 Timothy 3, 7. Moreover, he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. And if you have a situation where someone has fallen into sin such that anyone from the outside will look at it and say he's such a hypocrite because he was preaching the Bible and then it was revealed that he was committing adultery, I mean, that person will never have a good testimony among those who are outside. Because if it's 40 years later, they'll still Google his name and find out about him and say, this shows what hypocrites all Christians are. And so that's something where even with true repentance, you could never You can never meet that qualification. And that qualification doesn't mean that everyone in the world has to agree with you, because that would be impossible if you live in an ungodly society. But if they have a valid point, then you're not qualified. Bill Gothard, who Bill Gothard had a horrible reputation, then six months later, everybody's forgotten it. And it's going, what a wonderful reputation he had. You're talking like in the seventies, right? I'm talking in the seventies when he was caught basically feeding girls for his brother to have affairs with, you know, and so you look at that and you, I mean, I, especially with Google now you can see it and it's remembered, but you go back 50 years ago and a lot of those things, it's amazing how quickly people would forget. And part of, I think, going to Ezekiel 34 is we're not supposed to forget. The church is supposed to be different than the world. One of the marks of the world is that there, I mean, wicked men grow worse and worse deceiving and being deceived. There's this part of it where, I mean, the church isn't supposed to be like that. It's like you look at, like, with politicians and things where we, you know, they lie and they cheat and then they turn around and we bring them back again. Church is supposed to be different. And so there's this part of it where the church's understanding of things is supposed to be deeper. And instead the church goes, Christianity is this magical thing that just covers everything up and you don't have to worry about it. That's, I mean, it's like having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. Very much is. And so, I mean, it's so antithetical to Christianity, but the church has been following after the world for so long. This is why when you have, like, election of public leaders, people go, we're not electing a pastor in chief, and you go, but the illogic of following after people who are just deceivers. We've been electing wolves for years now, but we shouldn't be surprised that we find them in our pulpits. I mean, there was a British politician in the 60s who he was a member of the cabinet, and then there was a big scandal that he was having an affair, and he resigned. And then he did something that was unusual, particularly would be unusual now, which he didn't try to mail in a comeback. He just spent the next 50 years. He was, you know, independently wealthy. We just spent the next 50 years like volunteering at a charity. And like, that's more of what repentance should look like. I don't know. I don't, from what I heard, there's no, I don't think he was pressed to be a Christian. But regardless, that would be a Christian testimony of repentance, saying, I brought shame on the name of Christ, so I'm going to try to serve people in a way that's not about me. It's actually about not bringing shame on the name of God, but doing God's work. That's something that is not – that's pretty foreign to churches, unfortunately. Trevor Burrus Right. That's a great point because you look at 2 Corinthians 7 where it says what godly repentance looks like. And godly repentance is not you try to position yourself to get back in the position so you can do the same thing again. it says that you have a desire to clear your name. Somebody who has a desire to clear their name, they should not want to get back in that same position. Because if they get back in that same position, they're not really clearing their name. They're really going, I'm setting myself up again to fall. The person who wants to clear their name, they go, yeah, I don't want to have women coming to me for counseling where I seduced one of them. I don't want that to happen to me, so I'm not going to be a pastor. That would be a much stronger sign of godly repentance rather than worldly repentance. I think about Joshua's point, people swing the other way where there's some that they want the man back, they want him to be a pastor, they want him to lead, then the other people will say, we don't even want him as a part of our church ever again, even if there is repentance, or at least professed repentance, so he can come back, be a member of the church, obviously no authority roles at all, but if he's someone who's professed the name of Christ, is working, shows an open actual repentance, then to not accept him back is a rejection of what God says about, you know, there are, you know, fornicators, murderers, sodomites, such as were some of you, you know, and then... And especially for the church not to want them back, they're the church that should want them back. In other words, if they're the ones that experience how he manipulated, how he took advantage of things, they should want him back because they'll be able to see if the repentance is real better than other people can. They don't know his techniques as opposed to they know his techniques. And so they should be quick to embrace him back and they should especially desire that he comes back there rather than going to another church. which is also a good reason for excommunication, right? Because if they excommunicate that person, then to restore himself, he really has to go back to that same church. Then that same church can go, yeah, you're just doing the same techniques again. You're just working yourself up. Or they can go, we see real repentance here. We see that you're not using the techniques that you were using that got you in that situation in the first place. So there's a there's an ad going around against the Democrat attorney general candidate that he hugged a child molester. And like how dare you do that, and I don't know all the details like the guy supposedly was Rehabilitated and what's like and he was like recognizing him But the for a lot of people just saying he hugged a child molesters enough to say because they have no concept of repentance That there's restoration. I mean there should be lifelong consequences for that person, but then to say that because you associate with him in any way therefore you're not qualified for office is not a biblical standard because there is a place for people who've committed grievous sins to repent. Right, and that's really important to recognize. Paul was qualified to be an evangelist through the whole world. He was a murderer. There's no other word for it. The scripture is absolutely clear. He was a murderer, and that didn't disqualify him. That didn't disqualify him to send Timothy and say, figure out who should be elders in these churches. I mean, it didn't disqualify him even to the point that he couldn't delegate authority. Now, part of, you know, one of the things that I think you said earlier, Charles, is that, you know, a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, or they honored him with his lips. That's the one you used, which, you know, very similar, but they honor God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him. I think I said a form of godliness. I think that's actually what I said. I thought you said the other one. I don't think so. but the form of godliness. And part of the issue is I think that the church, the churches embrace that and accepted that, that we've, we've got such a shallow view of Christianity that, that we don't really want to pierce that. And that's why these people are able to come back is that we're pretty comfortable with the idea. And there's lots of people that are, you know, well-known theologians that basically teach that and they don't teach, you know, lordship salvation, the idea that Jesus becomes your Lord and actually scourges every sin he receives and actually turns you from the sin through the power of the Holy Spirit, that you just continue the same way. And maybe that will happen some, you know, in some you know, mystical way later, but it doesn't happen in reality, as opposed to God's Word says, it does happen in reality, and that God is a good father, and he just, as you would constrain the sin of your children, he constrains the sin of those who are actually his children. And so when we look at that, part of the reason the church doesn't think this way is because it is a wrong view of the gospel. It is a wrong view of the extent of the gospel. When you go back to Ezekiel 34 about the people that God says, these are the shepherds and I'll remove my flock from them. You know, one of the first things that it talks about is, you know, should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool. And so it seems to me that if you take that and you apply that to the modern concept, that pastors that steal from the church, they're feeding themselves off the sheep. And we look and we go, that's not very common. But the statistics are, that's incredibly common. I think 6.6% is the estimate of all money given to churches is stolen by people at the church, not necessarily the pastor. But you look at how many pastors, how many churches only have one person that actually has much authority. It's really common. That's why there's lots of instruction on how you should set up accounting at churches and stuff because people steal money all the time. And we've even experienced that where we had a man who was a pastor at a church that we planted. And then we found out that he was stealing all kinds of money. And my answer to him is you are now totally disqualified. You can never be a pastor again because you are feeding yourself on the flock. of the six elders I've had in my life, one of them was found to be a thief. I mean, like, you know, so like you said, I mean, I don't know what the statistic is across the board, but for me it's like 16 percent. Right, exactly. And I don't, I don't think that that's very Sorry, let me say that again. And I think that, you know, that's a lot more common than people think. And part of the problem is, the church is, you know, somebody commits adultery, and most times the church won't completely cover it up, unless it's really easy to. There are times. But if the church finds out about it, the church almost always will put out the pastor that was committing adultery. Church may not be told. But with stealing, this stuff gets hidden all the time. where they just took some money they put stuff on the church credit card that they shouldn't have put on the church credit card that wasn't really there so they got the church to pay for a personal expense you know instead of being this is everything from vacations to to books to home home entertainment equipment i mean it's a lot i mean like it starts out as things that are that are semi-justifiable and it starts to become things that aren't even remotely justifiable and a lot of churches actually even I think it's common enough that a lot of churches kind of build policies in to almost allow a certain amount of what would effectively be stealing, but there's this part of it where— We don't want to be too tight. We don't want him to have to count too closely on what he's doing. And so, I mean, and it depends. I mean, it varies by the church, but I think there are definitely churches that fall into that category, and they kind of, you know, don't muzzle the ox that treads out the grain, and they just sort of, eh, we're not gonna look at that that closely. You can fill as much cash as you can fit in your pocket on Sunday morning is yours. Right, right. You throw it up in the air, and what God wants, he keeps. We can think of that theft and not think that it's that serious, but, you know, what it says in John 10, 7 through 10 is, Then Jesus said to them, Again, most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before me are thieves and robbers. But the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I've come that they may have life and that they may have it more abundantly." When you see that pastor stealing, it's really easy to go, oh, it's not that serious. And God goes, no, this is exactly why I got rid of Judah and Israel. This is why the priests are no longer Levites. It's because they stole. I mean, what he's really saying is, you see, he says that my sheep did not hear them. That the ones who are truly his sheep don't listen to the thieves. And so there's this part of it where, you know, you need to understand that you are under scrutiny in this scenario as well. Because if you don't care about their theft, if you don't care about these things, what he's saying is, he's saying, I'm going to remove my flock from them. Are you part of his flock? Because his sheep don't listen to the thieves. So, I mean, it's really easy to go, well, you know, I want to be loving and I want to be forgiving. And God goes, you're being judged. How do you care about the things that I say I care about? And how much are you taking a man who's clearly You cannot worship God and mammon. You love the one and hate the other. The person who's a thief, you know which one they love. It's not like it's a debate. It's not like it's any question. Everybody knows why they stole the money. And so, and people go, oh, but they had this unexpected expense. They had this or that. Well, the answer is you make an appeal to the church then. Because if it's real and you're actually a shepherd, the church should go, yeah, his wife needs a surgery. We'll figure out a way to help pay for it. As opposed to just going, you know, I'll just steal the money. No, it's because you really want the money. Right. Yeah. I imagine this is incredibly common. I, I heard statistics. I couldn't find some today when I looked, I heard of pastors have stolen money. So you should check Reformation's books. Okay. You don't really need to. And so one that's probably not quite as direct, but I think it's still where they're feeding themselves sexually off the flock. I do think there's a big difference between, you know, somebody who has an adulterous relationship that's a pastor and has it outside the church and inside the church. Because God says, the one I'm going to say, I'll remove the flock and never, you know, that's the one that is feeding themselves off the flock. The person who goes and sleeps with the prostitute, yeah, they're not saved, right? They're walking in the flesh, you know, Galatians 5, really clear. But it doesn't mean they couldn't be saved and potentially be a pastor again. But the person who did it with their flock, no, God says, you're feeding yourself off the flock. It's not hard to look and see how common this is. I mean, this happens all the time and in lots of different ways. I mean, I grew up in a lot of independent Baptist churches, and in those circles, I mean, there was Jack Hiles, who was You know, I mean, a really big named pastor when I was growing up and he was revealed later to be, you know, I think having a very almost open affair within his church with one of the secretaries where, I mean, you know, I mean, this, this is, this happens all the time. One of the major churches, you know, when the pastor was found out to have had a multi-year affair with somebody in the church that left the church, that they attack her when it's exposed rather than saying, the pastor's the big problem here. But, you know, oh, well, at least he's come forward, at least he's admitted this, at least he's trying to make restitution. And the church is just desiring so much for that person that they find so charismatic, such a wonderful leader. They desire that rather than saying, wait a second, God says you're feeding yourself on the flock. You've ruined that woman's life and now you think you can come back and shepherd people. There's no situation. As I say this, I'm also not saying that somebody who's a pastor that commits an adulterous affair outside, that somehow you should bring them back too. I think that 99.99999% of the time, you shouldn't bring them back either because they're likely to do it. But you don't have a clear scripture that says never. This, you have a clear scripture, I think, that says never. There's no exceptions. Was it one of the con directors you were talking to in Nigeria said that pretty much every pastor that they know of has committed adultery with somebody in their congregation, or something along those lines, and maybe not at all. It was Dogo, and it was 50% of them have committed adultery with somebody in their congregation. And that it's very common for women to approach you after you preach a sermon in Nigeria and offer to sleep with you for having, you know, I don't have any way to repay you for that wonderful word of God, so can I sleep with you? Yeah, that's more corrupt than the U.S. That's more corrupt than the U.S., and it's more, they're very corrupt, but there's signs that they might be going somewhat the other way, as opposed to America is not as corrupt, but our signs are all, you know, they're all pointing negative. We're going downhill fairly rapidly. But I think, you know, a lot of churches that, again, that charismatic pastor, they're just going, so how long does he need to be away so that we can say he's been cleaned up instead of you're gone, you won't lead the church again. And a lot of churches do that. And then he takes a portion of the flock and starts another church. That's very common. Even the man who, I forget what his name was, that like had a homosexual prostitute and was using drugs and was caught. I mean, it was like two or three years before, excuse me, two or three years before he had started another church. We just need to recognize just how common this is. And when you start out by saying, oh no, God could call them. The reason that you thought they were qualified in the first place is they're good at deceiving. So how do you know the second time? And the answer is, you know, because God said, I'm not going to call them. I mean, and while we're just, you know, as we're getting ready to move away from the topic of feeding on the flock, I mean, it's probably relevant for pastors. You know, you should be aware that those openly stealing, openly having an adulterous relationship, those are kind of the worst manifestation of those particular areas. There's lots of other ways that you can be selfish and take from the flock without doing those things. And you should just recognize, I mean, there are pastors who who draw women to them for other things. They're not necessarily doing necessarily sexual things with them, but they're stealing the affection of people in the church from their husbands. They're using the children of the church for their own, for things that are vain and that are selfish. They're using the strength of the church for different things that just that further their own interests. There are lots of ways, and in the end, those are all variations of feeding on the flock, and they're variations of stealing. So, I mean, you shouldn't think that, hey, I haven't actually, I have not swiped the credit card and stolen direct money. But if you've taken from the church and used the church for yourself, if you're being selfish with the church in different ways, you're feeding on the flock. Right, if you're using the church to build yourself up, which is a very common thing, where they're building up their reputation, instead of making it building up the flock so that they do the works that cause people to honor their Father in heaven, which is what the role of the pastor is, if instead what they're doing is trying to get people to look towards them, then they are feeding themselves on the flock. Like, I mean, someone like Billy Graham, who was a very moral person in a lot of ways, who set up rules to protect against certain things, he could have been... I mean, I can't go and say I know what he was doing, but he could have never stolen money directly, he could have never had an affair with someone, but he could have been feeding on the flock to make his name great. That could have been his desire and his goal. Now they have his farm that it opens up that it's like a religious experience to see to see his grave So that's that's feeding on the flaw right and so I mean very you can't blame too much for that because he is dead I think it was partly his plans so But I mean, but what I'm saying is they did follow through, not him. You could be as avoiding of scandal in your life and never have any sort of scandal. And yet you could have been focused on feeding on the flock throughout your entire ministry. And we should just recognize that, right? Because when you go to second Peter three, it says that they twist the scripture to their own destruction. It doesn't mean that they had to be caught. It doesn't mean they had to be removed. It doesn't mean that they couldn't pass through their whole life, but they still twisted the scripture to their own destruction. So looking back at Ezekiel 34, the weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who are sick, nor bound up the broken. And this idea of abusing the weak you have. These people who have been given authority by God to lead a people. You know, in your church you have people of all different walks of life. you know, been abused, they've had bad upbringings, you know, all these, there's different scenarios you can think of. And the goal of the Elder is to edify the Saints, to strengthen them up, to teach them. And as we've talked about before, with the, you know, feeding on them, now you have Unwilling to heal them unwilling to deal with their brokenness and instead you add more to the brokenness you make their situation worse and God is calling this wicked and saying if you are an Elder who you look at the sick you look at the broken and you're doing things to make their life worse. God is saying You will never be called back to this position and so many people so many pastors they do this very thing where they're more interested in the ones that can bear the work of the ministry, right? Maybe they can teach a Sunday school class, or maybe they have money, or they can do this, or they can do that, and they focus on that. And God says, my pastors focus on the weak. They don't focus on the strong. And that if you put somebody in that position that has been taking advantage of the weak, A lot of pastoring is dealing with the weak, right? I mean, a lot of the work is dealing with the weak. And so you can't say, okay, I'll be a pastor now and have the weak come to you if you may have that temptation to abuse them and take advantage of them. So God's saying, hey, if I catch you doing that, you're done. Which, I mean, this one does require more discernment than saying, has the person committed adultery or has the person stolen? Because for one thing, a lot of people would say, well, if you're telling women they need to submit to their husbands, you're abusing the weak. So there's that. And there's also the fact that there's no perfect elders. And a very easy way for elders to not be perfect is to spend their time with the people, with their friends in the church instead of the people who need them in the church. So, you know, on the one hand, you can reach a level where you're disqualified. On the other hand, you could probably say that every pastor does it to some extent. So it does require discernment. You can't just use this as a cudgel against your least favorite elder. I mean, when you actually talk about those who are wolves, I mean, the extent to which they abuse the weak is pretty extreme. And I mean, when you get to the point where the church is going to go, we need to do something about it. Well, I mean, but I mean, before the church even is aware of it, I mean, I think people would be shocked at how horribly people who look respected in other ways are incredible. I mean, I've been at a church where when one of the elders was accused of something wrong and after coming out of his trial, he would send emails to people in the church late at night, lying to them, telling them they were going to be called as witnesses early the next morning. that he would put pressure on them, that he would come and stand over them and look at them. He would do things to them. One of the big issues is relative to the elder, many people in the congregation are weak. I mean, this is one, I mean, it's very easy in a lot of churches for someone who is in authority to just to treat people horribly. And those who are wolves, they do it in so many ways. And they know who, I mean, there were times where I was being treated really well and was not aware that other people were being treated horribly because I was being treated really well. They know who to treat well. They know who to treat poorly. And just, I mean, it is incredible how badly they will treat people. And in treating people poorly, they know who won't, who's too weak to stand up and even tell other people, because I was in that same situation and nobody told me. I mean, I didn't realize that people were being abused. I mean, I got hints here and there. Well, no, but I meant even before that, people weren't telling me because he knew how to manipulate people. And he would go after the week that would not even stand up for themselves. And there was real pleasure to that. I mean, for him. And so because of that, that's what God is saying. No, I'm not going to put people in that position again. And you look at the most obvious example, and probably because I was going to use him as an example here, I've mentioned his name already twice, is Mark Driscoll. He was Mark Driscoll in the end. He was removed from Mars Hill because he was abusing his staff. And he was taking advantage of people and taking advantage of members of the congregation to the point where everybody went, you're just a really mean person to those people that you have power over. You're just mean. And that's what God's saying, you know, Mark Driscoll will never be qualified again. And it's not just Mark Driscoll. I mean, the Acts 29 leadership, you know, Matt Chandler, that was less proven. Steve Timmis, I mean, he was removed for being abusive too. So, I mean, like, there's this pattern of Acts 29 that they passed on the abuse from one person to another. The number of times that you hear about churches where a husband is cheating on his wife and the church begins attacking the wife. And just berating her for it. It's obviously her fault that her husband is cheating on her. I mean, this is abusing the weak. Those sort of things are incredibly, incredibly common. that you attack the person who brought a problem to the church. You attack a person who comes to you and tells you they're weak and they tell you what they're struggling with and you turn to them and you just absolutely just hurt them and increase their pain and their harm instead of actually trying to strengthen them and doing anything to really help them. And it's really hard to be a mega church pastor and not be abusing the weak. Because most megachurch pastors, the way they get to be a megachurch pastor is they're really good at picking people that will help them. That's how you get 20,000 people, 15,000 people in your congregation, in your 22, you know. Campuses that's the word I'm looking for and all their campuses where they they split them up and all these things where all these megachurch pastors are going to well you don't get there by Strengthening the weak you get there by by using the strong to move you. And that means there's a whole bunch of people, and God's very clear, right? Nobody can actually give account for that many souls. You just don't know the people well enough. You can't. It's just simply the limitation of the man. You just can't know people well enough to give accounts for their souls. So that whole system is wrong, and that whole system is basically set up that I don't see how you get around abusing the weak. Now, you can have a figurehead that's the preacher, it's not actually shepherding in most cases, and then maybe you can have everybody else, you know, that's why we come up with small groups and all these other fads through the church, you know, that pass through the Christendom. But a lot of it comes back to the fact that you're trying to work around the reality that pastors aren't caring for the weak. I mean, and God says, this is what they're supposed to do. He destroyed Israel because they wouldn't care for the weak. They wouldn't care for the—they wouldn't rebuke the oppressor. They wouldn't help the poor. They wouldn't help the widow, the orphan. Instead, all they wanted to do was deal with the strong people. And that's—we're seeing the American church culture collapse into these megachurches because that's really where we are. We're in the same place that Israel was. So back to Ezekiel 34, the next category we have is from the phrases where it says, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost. So this is a similar one, where it is definitely the weak of the church, and it's those who are driven away, falling away, and there's a desire to, there's not a desire to bring them back, but a desire to push them out. Having been an elder and watching other elders, this is not an unusual occurrence, where people go, this guy's a problem. Maybe he'll go someplace else. Maybe he'll, yeah, this would be nice if he left. Instead of going, no, we have to try to reach out to him. We have to try to minister to him. And the goal of the church is not to get rid of your problems. Now, if they leave because they're an unbeliever and they don't want to be confronted with truth, that's fine. I'm not saying that you have to keep pursuing them forever. We've excommunicated people. After I excommunicate, after the church excommunicates people, I don't say I have to keep pursuing them. It's more like we pursued them. They showed themselves unbelievers. Not that I wouldn't preach the gospel to them if I saw them, but the responsibility diminishes. But you can't just let people disappear. And if what you're doing is just chasing off the people that are causing you headaches or causing you problems. I mean, that's what the church is for. It's to heal people. And too often pastors drive off the people that are useless to them. And when somebody has a pattern of that, they can never be qualified to be an elder. I mean, and very often the people that they're driving away. I mean, like I said, there's people that aren't useful to them. There's people that cause problems for them. But one of the ways people cause problems for them is they actually call out sin in the church, call out sin in the pastor, perhaps. I mean, we know a family right now that has been, I mean, that spent years trying to figure out how to resolve issues with their elders. only for the elders to try to blackmail them, to force them to leave, to do everything they can to just destroy their reputation and damage them. And they've been very hurt. I mean, I can see how God has strengthened them in real ways, but they were very hurt by the elders that have done this. And So, I mean, this is very, very common is, you know, someone in the church says, hey, I don't think you should have done that. I don't think you should have said that. I'm not sure that that was right. And the elder goes, well, they've got to go. I mean, they're clearly a troublemaker. Right. Dividing brethren. Dividing brethren. That's usually the call instead of going, OK, they have this opinion. I should shepherd them away from the opinion. Or if their opinion is correct, I should repent or I should, you know, call it out for the church to repent, but so many of them, their answer is, you're dividing brethren, you need to go. And that's not what Ezekiel 34 is saying is a right response. Yeah, I mean, and whenever the pastor, the elder is saying, you should leave the church, that's a red flag, unless it's like a church plan or a missionary or getting married. I mean, if they're saying, leave the church, because you're not someone we want, but we're not going to discipline on you and actually deal with it biblically, that's an issue. Right, especially when Jonathan left, I did say, I understand why you're leaving and it makes sense to me. But I wasn't saying good riddance. I was not saying in any way, shape or form, please leave. And there's a lot of times that pastors say to people, this is not the place for you. Or they just make it very clear that they should leave, right? That's a lot of times what they want to do. And in the case that Charles was talking about, they're even going, we can't go to any church near here because then that will hurt our reputation. And so, you know, it's all about them and all about people looking up to them, which means it's not about the church. Like they went out of their way to blacken their name at every church in the area. And I mean. That's like as opposite to Ezekiel 34 as you can get. Even people who are excommunicated to say you can't come to church, which seems I mean barring some far-out situation. They actually told him, we will arrest you if you come to church. Right, which seemed like there might be some legal exceptions. But generally, you're not seeking those who are lost if you're saying you cannot hear the preaching of the word. You're not, unless you think they're coming with a gun to shoot people, you have no grounds to ban them. But too often that happens is that false shepherds, they want to drive off people. And if that's the pattern of their ministry, never bring them into leadership again, because God's not calling them. And when it says, nor sought what was lost, I mean, I think a lot of times that's, there are times in the church where the church goes through a real trial. Sometimes it's because sin is revealed in the church. Sometimes it's because of other things. And when that happens, there are people who Because things get done wrong, there are people who get harmed. There are people, sometimes the flock gets scattered. And there are people who are, a shepherd is going to go, I need to go fight for the sheep. I mean, I remember one of the, I mean, when we went through the split years ago, one of the reasons, I mean, I remember there was a point where I was like, I just really want to leave. I remember you looked at me and you go, don't you have a care for the others who are going to get hurt here? Don't you want, you know, I mean, you have an obligation to fight and you have an obligation to fight. I mean, and that was part of it, is there was a part where you go, I'm going to reach out to the people who got scattered. I'm going to make, you know, I mean, and you try to make sure that they have every opportunity to hear, that they have opportunity to have their wounds bandaged. And that, I mean, that really, really matters. And there's a part of it where, I mean, it's a fundamental denial of the fact that Christianity is partly is warfare. And in warfare, there are times where groups get separated. There are times where there's just real damage done. And those who care go, we're going to go and we're going to retrieve those that we can. We're going to bring them back. I think with that, I mean, those situations happen, but I think what's more common for a Southern Baptist church or an independent Baptist church or whatever, is people just kind of leave, you know? A lot of people I grew up with went to church. Most of them don't go to church, and they're probably still members of that church, and they were baptized and made members, and then they just kind of drifted away and did their own thing. And, you know, from what I know of the situations of different people, there was never really any attempt to go to them and say, where are you? Why aren't you here? Right. where, where are you? If you're a Christian, where are you going to church now? And are you transferring membership? I mean, are you, I mean, even just that idea that's kind of been lost. I mean, it was like, why are you leaving? I mean, that's a very valid question. Sometimes the answer is I'm leaving because of X, Y, and Z. And you go, wow, we need to fix that. And sometimes the answer is okay. You're going because of X, Y, and Z. And yeah, I can see that. I just want to make sure you're in some place and that you're protected because the church is a covering. like all the you know look at a lot of those baptist churches and their membership role is significantly higher than the people that ever attend church and that's because of things like this now shows other situations when something's voted on like you know how whether to expand the building or you know something that money's involved and all of a sudden they all come out of the woodwork for that i mean i remember i mean in particular if you look to church polity at least practice so i think david gibbs the attorney who did a lot of, you know, does a lot of counseling and making recommendations for church practices, he recommends purging the church rolls. not going and finding people. Right. That's not right either. You know what I mean? I mean, he just says you should purge the rolls because you want to prevent those situations where you do have an issue and a bunch of people because you've left them on the rolls. So there's this part of it where this church practice has been, not only do you not go and look for those who were lost, you erase any record of them and just, you know what I mean? And I mean, it's reasonable to purge rolls, but you can't purge your responsibility. And if that person has wandered away and isn't attending church, the answer is excommunication, not purging. The answer is, you know, on our directory, we have a list of people that have been excommunicated. And, you know, that should be remembered by the church because we still have Yeah, we have the responsibility to restore those people if they come back and they show signs of repentance, but it's a testimony of caring about it. If you just let people leave, and it may not feel like pursuing them, but excommunication is a means to pursue people. I think I've mentioned this when we've talked about like just church and like church polity episodes, but when we went back and did a review of old constitutions, that was one of the most common thing among Baptist, Reformed Baptist churches was that they had a, they said, you know, if you're a member here, until you become a member somewhere else, you're considered a member. And if you disconnect and you refuse to acknowledge the authority of the church, that you would be excommunicated. And so, I mean, there's, there's a real, that's an idea that's kind of been lost is that people that those who are part of the church have an obligation to the church and until such time as they go somewhere else. Right. And now in our constitution, we allow people to excommunicate themselves going, I don't believe I was a false professor. Right. In which case, that's fine, because they're not saying that they're Christians anymore. And so they basically excommunicated. And there's a point where then you preach them the gospel because they need to be saved. But you don't need to – but you need to pursue them some way. Aaron Ross Powell So continuing on, Ezekiel 34. But with force and cruelty, you have ruled them. So how is force and cruelty different from these other ones? I guess it's more extreme version. or not in contrast, but he's saying that you've done these, you've not done these things, but, and you've done it with force and cruelty kind of, I don't know. Because there are, there are people, you know, and I think first Peter five, two through four kind of explains this shepherd, the flock of God, which is among you serving as overseers, not by compulsion, but willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly, nor is being Lords over those entrusted to you being examples to the flock. when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. And so there's this idea that you go, not like during the week, you're like targeting people in the congregation, but there can also be the congregation is here to serve me. And that's when you're ruling over with force and cruelty. You're not trying to help them. You're not trying to bless them. You're not trying to strengthen them. You're just trying to use them. And you're using them for your own purposes. And this happens, again, this happens a lot in the church, where I see this especially in Pentecostal circles in Nigeria, where the apostle, and you have apostles over here that are the same way, where it's all about serving the apostle. And that's force and cruelty. That's where the authority that was given, right? Jesus Christ says that he came to be the servant of all, and those who are greatest among them, they'll be the servant of all. And this is where they're saying, all needs to serve me. And if that's how they ran the church, it all needs to serve them. Nobody should ever appoint them again to be a pastor because the point of the church is to serve God, not to serve the pastor. The pastor is supposed to serve the church so that the church serves God. I think part of the force and cruelty as well is, I mean, there can be people who drive people off in the sense of they're just, they can come to somebody and go, hey, I don't think this is the right place for you. And they're not going to, they're not going to abuse you necessarily, but they're just going to, they're going to stop. They're maybe not going to help you much and they're not going to do things for you. But there are other places where the pastor has enforcers. pastor has a team of bulldogs, and once you, you know, and the attitude, and once you've crossed them, and they're going to go after you, and they're going to abuse you, and everything is, you know, it's, if the pastor wants to push something through, it's not going to be, we're going to bring the congregation along. It's going to be, no, we're going to force this through. This is what's going to happen. If you get in my way, you're an enemy, and you get marked off, and they run things like, you know, like Rahm Emanuel running a political campaign in Chicago. You know what I mean? You're an enemy, and you're going to get marked, and That I mean, there are places that run that they run it like a business. It's my business. This is how it has to be done. And if you get in my way, I will destroy you. And, you know, and there's other places that they're just they're just more like, hey, they just run it like a social club. And we don't really like you here. And I'm not gonna do anything to you. But you know, I don't think you're going to enjoy your time here. And there's a marked difference between those two. You know, the example that comes to mind where you see the extreme is Jim Jones when he drives everybody to Guyana and then to the point where they all kill themselves, willingly kill themselves. That's not even so much that he's, you know, abusing the weak and stuff. These were, I mean, some of these people were prominent people and yet he's driven the flock to a place where they're at the point where they kill themselves. Well, that's with force and cruelty. And so we just need to recognize that you know, people don't go that extreme. But understand there's people out there that do less extreme versions of the same thing, where they're going, we want the flock to do this, and they're gonna do this, and it's gonna do this, to the point where they're following them, and they aren't necessarily weak, they aren't necessarily broken, but they hear the voice of their master, and their master is that pastor. And spiritually, that's the same application. I mean, it leads to their destruction. So, you know, it's obviously physically we see of Jim Jones and that's awful, but then it's hard for us to see the spiritual side where that's, it's worse. I mean, what these people are doing is worse than what Jim Jones did. Well, Jim Jones was a pastor. Well, right. I'm saying he had spiritual and physical, right? Yes, that is. Yes. He was pretty far from the Bible. Not when he started. Yeah. Well, when he started, he also was, but he was a little cleverer about it. Right. And I'm just saying that with force and cruelty, he did it for 40 years to the point where he got there 30 years or whatever it was. And I mean, I've, you know, I know some of these groups like, uh, or they're more cult like groups, but they were, they, they're even like sleep deprivation is an issue. Like they're, they're pushing people to the point with like Bible, like daily Bible studies, like for hours, like I'm not like literally not getting enough sleep to be able to function. And that's not good. take out a second mortgage on your home to pay off the bill. I mean, even if it's not for him, it's for, you know, it's just, it's just brutal. You know what I mean? It's just whatever, you know, it's, yeah. If you don't do these things, you need to give up time with your family. You need to give up time with it. You know what I mean? You should be at one in the morning, 1.15 in the morning doing a church activity. Podcast episode. This is important, Charles. Two hours of SLBC for a month straight. So as you're, I mean, as you're saying that, you know, you're describing the book radical. Oh, really? Okay. Right. It's everybody should give up everything and everybody should move to an inner city. Well, I mean, David Platt drove a lot of people to do things that weren't very good for them, weren't very good for their family, weren't all for the sake of, you know, let's really have this church make a difference. And so you have to be really careful. You have to be really, really careful because, you know, Radical kind of swept through. Joshua was saying that it's also he does this hidden church thing where they do Bible studies for like 10 hours or something overnight Right. I think it was overnight. I mean they but some of those techniques and again you look at that and it doesn't mean it's inherently wrong, right? but it depends on how it's done. But we should look at some of the practices that people think are really cool and go, is this cool or is it really mean to have everybody come to a SLPC conference for a month? That's why I ran it before the men, so they could say, you're being rude. I mean there's there's a this is when you mentioned the megachurch I mean there's a real there's a real connection between those things and having a megachurch because if you have a church where you have if you do my plan you get no megachurch none whatsoever you might even have a smaller church at the end but I mean if you have 12 families or you know 15 families you can actually you can all discuss it. You can bring people along. And I mean, there is just this part of it where you have 300 families, 500 families. How do you have that discussion? How do you bring everyone along? How do you decide? And so if you go, we're going to do this, I mean, you're going to have to, you're going to be forcing a lot of people along just to do things. So I mean, there is a real part of it where I mean, There's not saying there's never been a time where something that was called a megachurch wasn't driven by real desire for God, not saying it's impossible. But most of the cases, that's not what's driving it. And so many of these things end up being side effects that you really can't even avoid. But it's a flock of sheep, not a herd of cattle. You drive cattle, sheep, sheep usually follow the shepherd as opposed to cattle you drive from behind. And so it is very different picture. And so, you know, when somebody has done that is, is more of a judgment call than the fact that they committed adultery or even that there's this whole pattern of abuse, but when they're driving the flock rather than shepherding it, that's a problem. So God says back in Ezekiel 34, as I live, says the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey. And what can happen is that they're using it and they're attacking the flock, and they're actually making And a lot of times it's when their sin's exposed and the shepherd's driven off that all of a sudden it really causes abuse for the people that are there. And there's a point that that abuse for the people that were there meant that they can't be qualified to be a shepherd because they're doing these sins not caring at all. That when they're exposed, that guess what, it's gonna bring ridicule on the church, it's gonna harm those people in the church, that they don't care that they're gonna cause the outside world to attack them. I mean, you can see this idea in John 10, 12 through 13. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees. And the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. And the hireling can kind of flee in different ways. I mean, there's different aspects in which a hireling can flee because, I mean, there's like you're talking about where he just runs when, you know, in a time when they need him. There's other ones where because of like a lack of doctrine in the church, he doesn't teach doctrine in the church. And so the people in the church are susceptible to everything that, you know, every fad idea that comes along. Or he doesn't know doctrine enough to defend even correctly, let alone have the congregation itself defend. And so his fleeing is even just, he doesn't even, I mean, that they're basically open to anyone who comes through, whether it's fad diets that are using religion as a view or you know, or fad investment schemes, the church is just being ravaged by these people because he only, he's not, he doesn't know how to protect them from it, and his only interest is in, you know, the benefit he gets from the flock. And sometimes these are, these are, sometimes they're bad wolves, you know what I mean? Like, because, I mean, like a more skilled wolf, he kind of protects his flock from certain things. Right, so he can devour them. He wants them for himself, but, I mean, the ones who They're really just not that, they're not that gifted, but they're wolves. And, you know, a parallel would be where you have a alpha wolf and a beta wolf. where sin is discovered, but instead of fighting it, the pastor flees. The beta wolf flees. He goes, oh, I just can't stand up to this other guy. This other guy's too powerful. I'm just going to, I just can't do it. And sometimes they just roll over and let the other dog put their mouth around their, or the other wolf put their mouth around their throat so that they show submission, and sometimes they just flee. But God's saying that means they're not qualified. When the day of battle comes, if you're not willing to battle, you're not qualified. And you'll never be qualified. You can make the flock of prey by where you should be fighting to protect the flock if instead you step aside and let somebody else devour the flock. You find out that the pastor's committing adultery, so you just find another church you can go work at rather than dealing with it. You're disqualified. This is cowardice. This is cowardice. All cowards have their part in the lake of fire. I think a lot of people don't think about that verse. That verse obviously doesn't just apply to elders, but it absolutely applies to elders. And if somebody has a pattern of cowardice, The only way that you can know that they broke that pattern of cowardice is see them stand in that day and God saying, I'm not going to put my flock at that risk. Why should I put my flock at the risk of having a coward that's going to protect them again? He goes, once it's proven that they're a coward, they're permanently banned. They're permanently disqualified. And obviously this means cowardice in a, in a, in a marked situation, right? I mean, everybody along the way at times, there's a thing where you, you give into fear in a certain way, but I mean, it's specifically where your cowardice causes the flock to be a prey, right? Where somebody else can attack the flock because you were the hireling that didn't care about the sheep. If you were a hiring that didn't care about the sheep, God won't hire you again. It's just like the picture of walking after sin in a certain way. The pattern of your life is being a coward. That's what you're going to be. And it's been proven in a specific case where you've just let the flock be a prey. When it's proven in that case, God doesn't say, well, I'll give you a chance to prove next time that you won't be a coward. He goes, no, there won't be a next time. Again, doesn't mean that you can't be saved. Doesn't mean that you can't repent. Just means you can't be an elder. God has said, you know, if the people who are leading my flock do these things, that I'm not going to give them a flock again. But I think a lot of times we look at other things and we're kind of quick to go, these people shouldn't ever get a flock in the first place. You know, somebody that was a polygamist, does that mean that they can never be an elder if they were a polygamist? Clearly, if they're currently a polygamist, no. They've got enough problems, they've got more than one wife. But if a man marries four women, then is saved, and three women leave him. Mysteriously die the next week. Now, say three women go, you're a believer now, I'm abandoning you. Does that mean that because he was a polygamist, he could never be a pastor? Because part of what I'm trying to do is give the extreme example to say, is there any case? We all know that if you're a polygamist, you should probably never be an elder. But does it, you can never be an elder is different than you should probably never be an elder. Right. I mean, if all of the polygamy was prior, I mean, you know, so the verse that talks about being a husband of one wife, I mean, I think the best way I've heard it translated is kind of, he's a one, a man of one woman. And it's not just like an instant of a thing. It's also kind of the pattern of his life in a sense. So, I think it would depend on the age he was at a certain point. I mean, you'd want to see a period of time where he didn't have tendencies and didn't do other things. I mean, I think it would depend on that. I mean, if he was 70 when the women left, My guess is I'd probably be like, well, I doubt he's going to be an elder. I don't think I'm ever going to have to worry about that. But I do think there would be a point where you would examine and you would actually see. What did God actually reveal? Is it something that you can measure very well? Is it something that- Because it would have to be provable. It wouldn't just be, well, the deck is stacked against them. He had an unknown and unprovable number of wives. It's a mystery. How many wives do you have? Less than 10. Let's say his wives left him, and then the next 10 years he lived in a place where you didn't have really hardly any insight into what went on. And so there's this part of it where it's very hard for you to even examine necessarily and see what's going on. And let's say his wife says, his wife's, you know what I mean? His wife doesn't really, maybe she doesn't want to talk about it. You know, and there's like, well, you start to go, you know what I mean? It starts to be really difficult to judge. You go, I don't, I don't think I'm going to be likely to go. I can tell he's been a man of one woman for 10 years. Right. But the, and. What I think we're all saying is that there could be a case. It doesn't mean that we should have an expectation that that case would come, but there could be a case. As opposed to, that's very different than if you have been that pastor and you have done these things where God says, I won't call them. God would call a polygamist more than he would call Mark Driscoll back to being a pastor. That's kind of the point that I want people to think about. Or child molestation. Same thing, I'd be really slow to appoint a child molester as a pastor. But if somebody's, you know, if they did it when they were young, and they've had 30 years, or even less, or a long period where you go, And they had to be saved afterwards, right? If they're claiming salvation before they, then you go, I don't think you're a believer, forget it. But if they're saying they were saved after, there's a point where you could go, this is a qualified man. It's not inherently disqualifying for the rest of their life. Right. It wouldn't be that much different necessarily than Paul. Right, because Paul was a murderer. Right. I would say as long as they were clearly not a believer when they did it. Absolutely. If it's someone who's in church and say, well, after this was discovered, I realized I wasn't a Christian and now I'm a Christian. Like, well, sorry. If it was someone who was just like, they got baptized, but then they weren't going to church, and then they did it. That's different. Maybe they were baptized and went to a Roman Catholic church. Well, that's not a Christian profession, so that's fine. But part of it is, I guess what I'm saying is that, again, I think people look at it the other way. They go, this person was terrible. He was forcing people to do things. He was abusing the church. But he can be restored back to being a pastor, but this Chomlester, never. And I don't think that, I think we're just thinking about it backwards. and the church has to be really careful. You're not arguing strongly for child molesters being in the past. No, no, not at all. I'm saying there could be exceptions, yes. As you're going, you understand how lopsided our views are. We're so quick to put somebody back in who has done those things that God says they should never be allowed to be in his church, the leader of his church. You look at divorce. You know, people go, oh, once you're divorced. I mean, I've heard this lots of times. Once you're divorced, you can never be an elder. Well, God doesn't say that. And of course, then they admire people who have been divorced and are still elders and didn't even stop being an elder while they were divorced. But you look at these things, and I think people are putting these things on the wrong scale. It is a great privilege to be allowed to shepherd the Church of God. And the thing that bans you from that privilege is that you abuse the privilege. It's not other things that you did. Paul could lead a church. Paul led churches. Paul planted churches. The fact that he murdered Christians wasn't enough to disqualify him. But a man who's given the privilege of being the leader, an under-shepherd of the church of God, and abuses that privilege, God is really serious about saying, as I live, I'm not going to give him a flock. A lot of the things discussed in here, there's a couple real, you know, the takeaways that you were pointing to I think are really useful. The idea of do we put absolutely the wrong priority on what God condemns versus in the end these people, the reason we appoint them is they appeal to us. that there's something appealing about them, and we should recognize that. I mean, there is a danger. Anytime something is something that lures you or draws you to it, there should be, if it's not holiness that's drawing you to it, you should start to ask questions. What is it about this that makes me be drawn to them? And I think the other part is, I mean, hey, for those who are elders or those who have any ministry within the church, it is a good for us to think, like you said, it's an honor to be appointed. It's an honor to have a ministry. It's an honor that God bestows upon people. I mean, it is really dangerous for us. We should really recognize how easy it is to abuse the church. We should recognize how easy it is to abuse that honor. But the good news is God is God and he exposes it. He destroys it. Sometimes he just causes the church to be filled with goats and let it go and prosper and you just get it to be huge because so what? They're drawing away goats and God goes, I'm protecting my church. So the good news is even though there are false shepherds in the pale, as the song says, that even with that, God still protects his church and God still will deliver it. because there is a chief shepherd, which is what the rest of Ezekiel 34 talks about, is there is a chief shepherd that he will appoint, and that chief shepherd will do, that chief shepherd, that chief shepherd will do these things that the shepherds of Israel did not do, and that so often the shepherds in the church, the false shepherds, the hirelings don't do, but Christ will do it. God says, to whom much is given, much is expected. The greatest thing that God gives is somebody the privilege to protect and to guide and to strengthen and to feed his flock. When you abuse that privilege, God does hold you accountable for it. The church should be holding people accountable the way God holds them accountable. Thanks for joining us. This has been The Conquering Truth, a project of Reformation Baptist Church. If you found this helpful, you can visit us online at theconqueringtruth.com and subscribe here or in your favorite podcast app. Thanks for watching.