You're listening to Megiddo Radio. Megiddo Radio is a radio ministry of Megiddo Media. For more, visit our website at MegiddoRadio.com. That's MegiddoRadio.com. Good evening and welcome. This is Paul Flynn with Wicked Radio for the 22nd of September 2018. Thank you all for tuning in. On tonight's program, well, we're going to be dealing with a topic I've been sitting on for a few weeks. I have not really wanted to cover it, but here we are. I was messaging a brother back and forth about this issue. Didn't do it a few weeks ago, mainly because I've just been so busy. If those are not aware, I'm in the midst of a month-long intensive Greek course, which has been excellent. It's been a real blessing. Been surprised how far we've gone. We're going through Jeremy Duff's Greek New Testament book. It's probably one of the main bestsellers at the moment I think we've gotten. I think we just finished chapter eight and doing a lot of translation work and things like that. So that's been wonderful and really want to tackle the biblical languages over the next couple of years, especially now that I'm in theological college. But it's a tremendous opportunity, and I really want to grab it with both hands, because if I don't, well, I know I'll regret it, and you don't really get this time back again. Things like this that often get neglected and ignored and how do you use it properly, you know? But so appreciate your prayers, appreciate your support and your patience in between the programs, because I basically said at the start of this month, I don't know exactly when programs are going to come out. This program that I'm going to do today dealing with Chris Rose, bro. And. I, you know, again I've been sitting on this for a few weeks, I've been concerned with one aspect especially. of his ministry as a pastor. This is not about the program necessarily, Pyra Krishna Radio, or any of the critiques he has done, from what I can see. We might as well get into it, because I will... I was going to try and do this from Megiddo TV, but I won't get a chance to do this from Megiddo TV. I will stick the audio probably on YouTube, because I think this is a really important issue. considering how well-received Chris Roseborough is, and it is this serious. I wouldn't likely go into an issue like this. I know that he is well-received in a number of different circles, and he's also been unfairly criticized in a number of different circles. There has been a number of attacks, unfortunately. Baseless attacks of hypocrisy and all this kind of stuff, which is a bit nonsense, I'll be honest. He, what he believes, is pretty consistent in what he believes. And he is, where he has been attacked by, you know, Memorial Ministries and all this kind of stuff, and Josh Shove, and you know, it's not even worth paying attention to, really. And so, you know, when I saw this, I really sympathized with him. However, there was one element of the criticism that was gravely concerning and something that I could not ignore, as much as I wanted to, if I'm being honest. And there's many other things I'd rather cover, but because of this quote-unquote discernment ministry, community, whatever you want to call it, if you want to even call it that, he is kind of, you know, like if people are going after or, you know, want to see, and I've often quoted Pyrocrustian Radio and the articles as a source, and you can still do that, I'm not saying you can't, but of a kind of a trusted source for exposing Karismania bringing up Michael Brown and you know all this kind of stuff which is why it's so grieves me that I have to do this and what I'm talking about is one of the things that came up was Chris Rosebro's church in Minnesota see if we can get the exact name of it here in front of me at Kongsvinger I probably pronounced it wrong Lutheran Church, and it is part of the American Association of Lutheran Churches. I don't know how liberal or whatever conservative they are, but I'll presume that they are conservative. Oslo, Minnesota, and I I can I've seen pictures of it. I think it's like a it's kind of out in Quote-unquote middle of nowhere. I think and yeah, but whatever the case of that There was one thing that caught my attention that really disturbed me amidst all the silly Things that were being said and spread around and all that because I don't know it's like anybody who I Don't know Grace, you seem to have annoyed a lot of people over the years with, you know, um, with the, oh, strange fire conference from a couple of years ago. Charismatics like Moriel and all this kind of stuff. So they've got a target on their back and anybody seems to be associated. I don't know what exactly what it is, but I digress. So, um, there seems to be, look, Just up front, just to state where I'm at, I sometimes listen to Pyrocrystallization, I sometimes... There are some elements of it that I'm a bit, hmm, not really my cup of tea, how we cover it, but generally a good program, and generally enjoy it, and... There's generally a few things he does and that that I'm like, okay, but... But it's a pretty good program, good critiques, and I would listen to it maybe on average once or twice a month, which is quite a lot for me. Never really had any major issues with it, seemed to be quite fine, seemed to be quite solid in anything it covered. However, the use of the church in Oslo, Minnesota, of a statue of Jesus, cannot be overlooked, cannot be ignored. It can't. It's too serious. Now, I can hear the objections in my head, well, wasn't Solomon involved? You know, all this kind of stuff. We could get into that in a while, but it's still serious sin. God hates idols. And I was wondering, is it just something that maybe he's against it? Unfortunately, Chris Rosebrough defends the use of statues. And not only that, it sounds remarkably similar to the Roman Catholic Church. I'm not going to get into the whole what Luther believed. Look, there's truckloads of Luther's writings. I don't know how many volumes of his writings that there are. You'd have to basically dedicate most of your life towards the writings of Luther to see what he believed. He probably wrote way too much. But anyway, I digress. God hates idolatry. So he has a picture on the website. This is not me. This is not me going off some attack website or anything like that. This is on the Kongsvingerchurch.org website. And again, apologies if I have mispronounced that. And in the bottom of the page where it talks about leadership, there's a picture and in the background you can just about see a statue of Jesus. Let's start playing The Defense. This is Chris Rose, bro. And, unfortunately, this was actually on PyroChristianRadio from April 5th, 2017, probably taken from a sermon that was preached from the church. It sounds like that. So let's start, let's play, and let's comment on it and the significance of it. Let's pray and get started. If you wanna open up your Bible, Exodus chapter 20. And you can put a finger on numbers 21. We're going to kind of attack a question, but let's pray. Lord Jesus, again, we ask that you would send your spirit upon us so that we may understand your word. Help us to understand what it is that you've revealed. And in understanding your revelation, that we may know you, know what you have done for us, and know what it means to walk in the freedom of the gospel so that we may keep your law. We ask this in Jesus' name. Amen. All right, Exodus chapter 20. Now, those of you who've spent any time in, let's say, Baptist churches or just evangelical churches or kind of Calvinist churches, what is the second commandment according to them? Love yourself more than God? Love yourself more than God. No, that would be quite weird. Okay, that would... There we go, not make idols. In the Reformed wing of the Christian church, the second commandment is this, you shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love and keep my commandments." So in the Reformed camp general evangelical camp second commandment is you shall not make for yourself any graven images What's the second commandment in? And notice how he says it's a general evangelical camp, and he's going against the general, not even just reform, but the general evangelical teaching. Now, we also have to point out, unfortunately, people don't generally have a problem with images of Christ. I bought a book the other day for college, an old edition of it, and there was an image of Christ on the front of it, and I tore that cover off, and it's in the bin right now. And the early church understanding of it as well. Images of Christ were not allowed until about, I don't know, the 8th century, I think it was Nicaea too. But he's going against the, on such an important issue like idolatry and statues, something that was Especially people who've come from a Roman Catholic background, and I especially want to look at his defense of it, which sounds remarkably Roman Catholic, if I'm being honest. And I know there's issues with the Lutheran Church, and he's kind of a product of that, if you could say. these problems go right back to the 16th century, because the Lutherans never adopted the regular principle of worship. They had the normative principle of worship. And what that is, is in worship, the regular principle said only those things that were commanded, think of Nadab and Abihu, the strange fire in Leviticus chapter 10, and also Cain enabled the offerings that they both offered. One was rejected, one was accepted. Why was one accepted, one was rejected, one was accepted because it followed the pattern laid down by God by slaying the animal and offering up the the sacrifice of the animal. That's in the start of Genesis chapter 4. But the Lutheran Church never went to the regulative principle, so was the normative principle of worship. Now when I say worship, there's a difference between life and worship. So in the worship service, only those things commanded are to be accepted, and anything that's not commanded is to be rejected. It is strange fire, it is an abomination for God. But in the normal principle, something has to be explicitly forbidden in order not to be used. Completely different approach to things, and it has led to big problems. The Anglican Church, also. has the same problem. And it is why in the Lutheran church you had generally hymns being written. And in the Reformed church, at least in the early Reformed church, there was Psalms. They went back to the Psalms of David and put them in meter. And yes, there are churches still to this day that date right back to the Reformation, including my own, that sing from metrical versions, not the versions in the King James or anything, but metrical versions, because they can't be sung, metrical versions of the Psalter. because of the regular, the principle of worship. This goes right back again to the 16th century, actually not the 16th century, really the early church. I've heard plenty of people talking about when Jesus and disciples, you know, it says in the King James Song and Hymn, that they sung, probably it was the Psalm 118 or something like that, but it's generally accepted there was no hymns in the church for the first couple hundred years. So, massively important issue. One of the distinctions, so when it comes to worship, the Lutherans tend, from what I can see anyway, to flatten out the distinction between life and worship. and let's continue. Luther's small catechism. Do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. What's wrong with us? Why aren't we getting with the program? Can't you just see here? We gotta get rid of all graven images. Again, not a Luther scholar, not claiming to be, but I'm just going to deal with this. His argument, and he's going to develop it a little bit further when I play it, is that, well, the first commandment is, you shall have no gods before me, thou shalt have no gods before me. And the second commandment is really, thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain, even though you're kind of skipping over. Even with that argument, just say you want to split the 10th commandment in two and make it Commandments 9 and 10, rather than the logical one. Look, if you read the 10 Commandments in Exodus chapter 20, and also Deuteronomy chapter 4 and other parts of the scriptures. Let's see there. How is it laid out? Deuteronomy chapter 4. Basically you're on the same thing. Now, even if you swallow this up, now you have to realize what the Ten Commandments are. The Ten Commandments is not the... I have to be careful how I say this. It is a summarization of the law. It is a summarization of the law. So the commandment, for example, thou shalt not kill, It's about preservation of life. There's a positive aspect and a negative aspect. That negative aspect is like you're not going to kill somebody. That is obviously a violation of the law. There's also another sense of you shouldn't hate somebody. That is also you want them dead or something like that. That is to commit murder in your heart. OK, and if you. If you see somebody starving. And. And if you want more exposition on this, go to Thomas Watson, The Ten Commandments. I keep recommending that because that is a wonderful work from a Puritan. And it's not difficult. You know, like the Puritans can be a bit, some of them can be a bit complicated to read. You know, like John Owen and things like that. I still recommend reading John Owen, but Watson is not difficult to read. He's not. Go read his work, his small work on repentance. It'll greatly bless your soul. Okay, back to our point, but he goes through all of this, and not only is the Sixth Commandment, thou shalt not kill, but also to preserve life. So if you can save somebody's life and you don't, that's a violation of the Sixth Commandment. So the Ten Commandments are a summarization of the law, of the moral law of God. We can create an image of God, That's what the law of God, that is the law, that is the very image, imago Deo, that has been imprinted in man's heart. And I've gone through this in other programs. This is what's referred to, 2 Corinthians chapter three, that has been planted in the heart, okay? So even if you do renumber them, and thou shalt and thou shalt, there's another one after that, covetousness twice at the end, well, That's what you have to do, you have to basically split the Ten Commandments in two, which is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church does in avoidance of the very clear implication that you shall not... Now, even if you do do this, you haven't dealt with Deuteronomy 4, verses 12-16. We have to deal with all scriptures given by inspiration of God. All scripture, every single part of it. Genesis to Revelation. We have to interpret it in context. But even if you put Commandments 2 and 1 together, you still have a problem. You still must deal with this text. This is been written by the finger of God. It is the moral law of God. It's not the ceremonial law. Okay, I'm not saying that this is Roseboro's argument, but it's still there. You can't just kind of go, well, we're going to number it differently, and oh, well, that's gone. You still have to deal with it. However you may number it or not number it, it's okay in your numbering system. Well, now it's part of the first commandment. Now these are, in a sense, they are two commandments. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Commandments 1 to 4. And to love your neighbor as yourself. Commandments 6 through to 10. But you still must deal with this. You can't just skip over and say, well, we don't number it like that. You still must deal with it. That's the second commandment. And this actually gets to one of the major differences in the Protestant Reformation between Lutherans and those in the general Reformed or Anabaptist wings of the Protestant Reformation. And that is that the Lutherans have kept the historic numbering of the Ten Commandments, and the Reformed camp has, let's just say, they're working with a modified version of the Ten Commandments. So if you're familiar with the early history of the Presbyterian church, and there are still some churches like this within the Presbyterian movement, what are they known for? Any stained glass? What did you say, staunch? They're known for staunchness, okay? In many of the ancient Presbyterian churches, if you will go into their prayer house, white walls, no stained glass, Were there any kind of liturgical art at all? No. No depictions of Jesus on the cross? None of that. And they go back to this and they say... Notice how he says that this is staunchy. He really doesn't like that. But Presbyterians do not have any images or depictions of Christ. Now why? because it's idolatry. We're not allowed to use, the whole point of the second commandment is to not use your imagination to form an image of God, of the God you worship. Or as we're going to see later on in the program, If you use a idol in worship, God takes it as worship to the idol itself. You can't just say, well, we don't worship. Everybody says, no one thinks that they actually worship the idol. No one. I've never seen any group actually say that. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't say that they worship the idol, by the way. They don't. Trying to get a quote here from Oh, I never actually printed it off, but... In the Catholic Catechism, Thomas Aquinas is quoted as talking about how they don't worship the idol itself. I dealt with this in the movie, the critique that I did of the movie The Shack. It's theological, it's Dangerous Theology and Error. You can watch it on YouTube for free, just type in that. And in that, The Catholic Catechism quotes Thomas Aquinas as saying that they don't worship the idol, but it's through the idol, well they don't say the idol, statues or whatever, terminating in one who it's formed towards. Basically they don't, they say they don't worship the idol itself. However, and I'm gonna be jumping around a little bit here, but if you go to Exodus chapter 32, And it says, Exodus 32 verse 1, And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron and said unto him, Up make us gods, which shall go before us. For as for this Moses, the man that brought us out of the land of Egypt, we want not what has become of him. So they don't know what happened to Moses, so what did they do? They form a golden calf. Up make us God's idols or whatever you want to call them. Now, as John Gill rightly observed, not that they were so very stupid to think that anything that could be made with hands was really God. or even could have life and breath and the power of self-motion, or of walking before them, but that something should be made as a symbol and representation of the divine being carried before them." And as Thomas Watson stated, to worship God by an image, which is what the Roman Catholic Church does. Watson said, God takes as done to the image itself. The people in Israel in Exodus 32, when they formed the golden calf, they didn't think, hey, because they created it themselves, obviously they didn't think that this was God. Exodus 32 verses 7 to 10 states, And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down, for thy people which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves, they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I have commanded them, and they have made them a golden calf, a molding calf, and they have worshipped it and sacrificed thereunto. He said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt. And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people, now therefore let me alone. that my wrath may wax hot against them, and I may consume them, and I will make of thee a great nation. So this is their understanding of the Second Commandment. They think this is the Second Commandment. We would beg to differ, and we'd let Scripture interpret Scripture so that you can understand. So the question is... Now, everybody pretty much in evangelicalism, generally speaking, even today in this weak age, generally acknowledges in worship Statues of any kind are forbidden to be part of worship. That's a generally accepted theme. Unfortunately, modern evangelicals don't take it far enough. Sometimes there'll be images of Christ on books and things like that, which is a violation of the Second Commandment as well. The whole point of the Second Commandment is not per se necessarily about statues. Statues are the products of men's imagination. They are idols originating in the heart. Ezekiel 14 verse 3 says, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart and put stumbling block of their iniquity before their face, should I inquire at it all by them. Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God, every man of the house of Israel, that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumbling block of iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet, I the Lord will answer him, that cometh according to the multitude of his idols. So this is set up in the heart. And then this image of God that they have, which they use through which to worship them, this is a visible representation. But they don't believe, they're not so stupid to think, as John Gill said, that this is actually God. The whole point, this is the whole point of the Second Commandment. It's not even necessarily about statues, it's not even necessarily about pictures. It's about, and we can violate the second commandment by using our imagination in how we view God. This is what the Jesuits do. The Jesuits use their imagination and how they approach God. They'll take the imagination, the senses and all this kind of stuff, and they will Imagine they're at the Lord's table and they will do these exercises where the smells and the sights and everything else, they'll try and fill in the blanks. And that is a form of idolatry if you are falsely representing God by your fallen imagination. Okay? You're using your sinful, corrupt nature as a source for how you view God. I hope, I hope we can see how this is wrong. I hope we can see how this corrupts and distorts the Creator-Creation distinction. Because God is wholly other. and how we view God, all the four commandments, especially the first three, are intricately linked together. You should have no gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images, any likeness of heaven and earth. And then verse five, the important part, or not the important part, it's all important, but thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, number one, don't worship them. nor serve them. Now you say, well how am I, if I have an image of Christ and all that and it's not part of the worship service, how is that violating? If it's in front of a book or whatever. That's how you view God. That's an idol. It will corrupt how you see God. Because you claim, if you claim to worship Jesus, then what's the point of this image? If you go also look to Deuteronomy chapter 4 where this is further expounded. Deuteronomy chapter 4 verses 12 to 16. And Oren spake unto you out of the midst of the fire you heard the voice of the words but saw no similitude, but only heard a voice, so he's speaking there of how he spoke to Moses. So he heard a voice and he declared unto you his covenant and he commanded you to perform even 10 commandments and wrote upon tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments that you might do them in the land where you're going to possess it. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves and for you saw no manner of similitude, similitude, likeness, any form Any representation, that's what this is talking about, no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord's spoken to you in Horeb, out of the midst of the fire. Why? Verse 16, lest you corrupt yourselves and make a graven image. So lest you have an image of God that forms in your heart and you create something with your hands. This is why this is so serious. It will corrupt you. Lest you corrupt yourselves. and make you a graven image and similar to any figure, the likeness of male and female, the likeness of any beast. It says in verse 17, verse 18, the likeness of anything that creepeth on the ground. Anything to do with worship, anything to do with what you worship, who you serve. As God, in a pictorial sense, is a violation of the second commandment. It is formed in the heart. Idols corrupt how we view God. There we have Norwegian Jesus up there with his light feathery hair. I mean, he'd really look good in puka shells and some surfboard shorts. But anyway, I grew up in Southern California. Now, they have an idol. I'm just going to play it back just a tiny bit so I'm not misrepresenting him here. I really, really don't want to do. So this is their understanding of the second commandment. They think this is the second commandment. We would beg to differ and we'd let scripture interpret scripture so that you can understand. So the question is, there we have Norwegian Jesus up there with his light feathery hair. I mean, he'd really look good in puka shells and some surfboard shorts, but anyway. I grew up in Southern California. He really looks like he blends. Anyway, but there's Norwegian Jesus. Now, are we sinning by having liturgical art and a depiction of Christ in our church? So there you go. He's saying that because there was one behind him, unless they've moved it since then or whatever the case, but it's interesting how he will point out, right, that the second commandment is now, you shall not take the Lord, thou shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, which is exactly what he just did there. So are we allowed to speak lightly and glibly of God? What does it mean to speak of the Lord's name in vain? We are to be in awe of His word, not to make jokes about the Almighty. I hope people can see why this is so... You know what? Does it sound... Look, I quite enjoyed this program years ago and all this kind of stuff, but that kind of glibness is obviously being carried into even when you're talking about your idler representation of Jesus. And then you're going to go later on in this and say, well, this is a gift from God. Well, I am not aware of Jesus or statues of Jesus being given by God or the command to do so or any kind of thing to follow. What are you following when you're creating this idol? One that does not speak, the one that does not hear. It's from the imagination of man. What kind of man? A fallen man. So it appears that the second commandment in Luther's catechism doesn't seem to be, well, we should be anything speaking about God. We should never, ever make jokes or make light of the Almighty. If we were to have a cross with the actual body of Christ on it, it goes from being a cross to being a crucifix. Is that sinful? No, it's not. But the question is, well, how do we know that it's not sinful? Are you prepared to be able to like, say, listen, let's open up the Bible and let's compare this idea. Now, those of you who keep track of... This is quite, it's quite startling because This is really serious. This isn't like kind of, yeah, we have disagreement. No, this is really, really serious. Anything I've ever seen in this program over the years seems to be fine. And I think because, you know, a lot of people have spoken with him. He's done conferences with different people. But he's now become, he's now promoting idolatry. What does the scripture say about idols? Psalm 115. They have hands but they handle not, feet have they but they walk not, neither speak they through their throat. They that make them are like unto them. What does it mean like unto them? The statues are dead, blind, dumb. So is everyone that trusted in them. Israel and in contrast to what even do says Oh Israel verse 9 trust thou in the Lord he is your help and their shield don't trust in man's imagination of how he will view the divine God Almighty what's going on in popular, you know, American Christianity. Maybe you listen to Christian radio. What's the big movie that came out this week? The Shack. Ufta is right. The Shack. Do I need to do a lesson on why, what's wrong with that? Do I need, all I need to say is like, okay, listen, God the Father is depicted as a woman. Already we've got a problem. I mean the theology in this book is a train wreck and the theology that has come into the movie because it's based on the book is a train wreck and William Paul Young is not a sound Bible teacher he and why Why is that I agree, but why? If you can use your imagination and how you view Jesus, could you not use your imagination and say that it's a woman? Oh, no, no, no, you're not supposed to do that, he's revealed as a man. Yeah, and the revealed will of God says, don't make any statues! This man has been accepted in many circles. My people, I have a huge amount of respect for, and I would pray that they would reconsider this, especially after this. Prayerfully think about this. He is a postmodern emergent. Yeah, he's a postmodern emergent, and I would say he's got his own thing going on. He's got his own theology. He was on the radio the other morning when I was going to He was on the radio. He gave an interview a couple of years ago, and he's going to be doing something in Grand Forks, correct? I think he's going to again. Yeah, if he shows up and does a public appearance, I'd love to be in the audience just to be able to ask a question. Yeah, so he was talking about how this came about and why it came about and everything. Yeah. So there are some people, there are some within visible Christianity, we'll kind of put it in that term, who will not go to see the movie, and it has nothing to do with the theology of William Paul Young. You know what it has to do with? It has to do with the fact that there's human beings playing the character of God, and they would see that as a breaking of their understanding of the second commandment. That's everything to do with theology. That is everything to do with theology. Yeah. making a graven image. So with that group you can't go and see the passion of the Christ. can't watch the Jesus movie and if you're really consistent not only do you not have Jesus on the cross you probably don't even have a cross and you know those little nativity scenes where they have little baby Jesus you can't do that either that's a graven image now I want to tell you it's true yeah the nativity scene is a graven image yes Christmas plays graven image seriously yeah any representation of God lest you corrupt yourselves Okay. Um... But it's almost kind of... kind of mocking? Who is he at this position? Which... Where did that nativity scene come from? Francis of Assisi in the 13th century. you would be hard-pressed to find any accepting of images in the first few centuries. Any. Take a look at the commandment itself, and we're gonna take a look at what it's prohibiting and what it's not, and we're gonna work with this assumption. Is there ever a time in Scripture where God commands somebody to sin? No, that's contrary to the character of God. God tempts no one. He would never command somebody to sin. So keep that in mind. All right, so here's the commandment. Let's pay attention to the details. You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. And I'm gonna pause there because you're gonna notice that there's a period, okay? If this were a blanket, commandment against all graven images. Let's say for instance... Yeah, but when you're reading the Ten Commandments, you also have to realize that they're a summarization of the law. You know, it's like saying you should not kill. Oh, it just says you shouldn't kill, but it doesn't say you have to save anybody's life. Okay, well we wouldn't do that with the Sixth Commandment, because we use the totality of Scripture. Okay, because it's a summarization. In the same way the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength is a further summarization in the New Testament of the moral law of the first four commandments. First commandment, God is number one. We don't put somebody else before him. Number two, we don't approach him using our imagination. We approach him according to the revealed will of God, which means you will not use any visible representations because that is not using God's revealed will. That is using your imagination as an authority. Number three, your attitude towards God. And number four, setting aside the one and seven day Sabbath. since that maybe you grew up in California and you have a thing for the humpback whales because everybody loves the humpback whales are quite majestic if you've ever gone you know on a whale sightseeing tour and seen them they're ginormous they're huge and they smell bad too yeah you don't want to get too close to the blowhole that's just what I'm saying here you know they don't use little mints you know they need tic tacs like it by the ton but anyway What on earth has this got to do with anything? I know what he means, but it's just... What? I'll let him finish his comment, but this is just bizarro. The context of it is in terms of that you shall not worship them or serve them. It is not prohibiting art. It's prohibiting art, not even art. How we've, it's basically, you want to summarize that and make it as simple as possible? Use your imagination how we view God. Because if we make an image of Christ, that's what it is. It's an idol. It's not God. It's a false representation of him. It's a distortion of who he is. And I just found, actually, I found that quotation from Thomas Aquinas from the Catholic Catechism. Now, it's on, I, when I did this years ago, I didn't actually have the paragraph down. It's on page 463. 464. I should have put the paragraph number down. But anyway, Thomas Aquinas' quote is in the Catechism, at least the 1999 edition of it. "...religious worship is not directed to images themselves, considered as mere things. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as an image, but tends toward that whose image it is." They don't think they worship the image. But as Thomas Watson said, and I quoted earlier, to worship God by an image, God takes us down to the image itself. E.S. Williams, in his book, Ecumenism and Other Gospels, wrote, Roman Catholicism has always promoted the use of images, icons, pictures, and other works of art in the quote-unquote worship of God. The Reformed faith and obedience to the Second Commandment removed images, icons, and works of art from the church in order to focus on preaching, teaching, and understanding the Word of God." It's a really good quote on understanding that. this beautiful majestic picture of a humpback whale swimming through the kelp beds off the coast of California. And you can see the light beams coming through the water. If this was a blanket prohibition against that, would that be a sin to have that on your wall? Yes, absolutely. How about a carved Yeah, who says that? Who says it's a blanket thing, even against all statues? I mean, we're not against statues of, you know, politicians or something like that. Be careful with it. I mean, if you were worshipping before and it actually turned into an idol or something like that, I don't think it's a good idea to have statues of, you know, former preachers or anything like that outside of a church building because of potential idolatry. But the whole point of it is, if it is God Almighty you're representing, and you worship that God, you're made an idol. It's in terms of worship. We're not talking about images of home-backed whales. This is a pathetic argument. It's pathetic. Again, A lot of the stuff that's been said about Chris Rose, but what has been false, but this is such a serious issue cannot be ignored He is promoting idolatry And the scriptures say they that make them are like unto them so is everyone that trusted in them that's really serious It's so serious I'm not saying he's lost, but it's a really serious question if somebody's an idolater. And that's between him and the Lord. I remember years ago we had a woman who was coming to church in Italy and she had difficulty giving up her idols. which show that she was still clinging to them. And it makes you pause. We don't know the inner workings of people's hearts. Admission into the church should be based on credible profession of faith. But this, come on, can we at least state that you are clinging to an idol and defending idols? Just at least will make you pause? I'm not saying this to kind of go, you're lost, you're lost, and all this kind of stuff. No, I am deeply concerned about Chris. Deeply concerned. It's not some of this, oh, critique and get one over him. No, I'm concerned for his soul. I'm concerned for the man's soul. I don't know if he's open to listening about this issue. You can be, some people can be in ignorance about it and all this kind of stuff. But not only that, he's defending it. Again, I'm not saying anything, I don't know. My own belief, I do think he's a brother in Christ, I do, I actually do. Just to state that out front, I do believe he's a brother in Christ, but it's a serious sin he's involved with here. I don't care what his church does, it's a serious sin. And I don't care the historical roots of it, God hates idolatry. God hates it, so we must hate it also. An image of a humpback whale majestically sitting as the centerpiece of your coffee table. Yeah, that would actually be prohibited. Now that's on the earth beneath. What if the thing you really loved were elephants? I didn't quote the part, well, thou shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. In, you know, you talk about context, but then you ignore the context to create a straw man of the reform position. How about, quote, oh, I don't know, Thomas Watson on the second commandment, John Gill on the second commandment, John Calvin on the second commandment. Well, in the last 50 years, it hasn't been. Unfortunately, the defense of the second commandment has been really, really poor in recent generations. But even people who've been quite weak on it, I haven't seen them introducing statues. I'm not even saying that he introduced the statues, it probably was just part of the church when he went there. But the fact that he's defending it, it is really serious. And so you had pictures of elephants and carved elephants in your room and you kind of had the Africa motif going on in your house. Would that be permitted? No. What about if you're into chubby little cherubim? I don't know why cherubim... Remember I was talking about the normative principle of worship? He's talking about life. I'm talking about worship. Now this all does pertain to worship because we worship God. We worship God, even if it's an image on whatever. It is part of worship because you do worship this God. Life! See, the Reformed, at least the Historic Reformed, would believe in the regularity of the principle of worship. But we don't believe in the regularity of the principle of life. That would be an impossible standard to keep, and it wouldn't be biblical, it would be legalistic. In worship, it's things that have not been commanded are forbidden. In life, there is Christian liberty and things must be considered and things like this. We must be wise about it, but there isn't like a big checklist of things we shouldn't do in our life, okay? the humpback whale cherubims and all that, we don't worship them, so it is not prohibited in the second commandment, and it's a strawman. ...are always chubby, but you get those little chubby baby cherubim with the little wings, they're so cute. The precious moments, chubby cherubim. Is that forbidden as well? Okay, so if we were to look at this just without any paying attention to details, just stark Yeah, not paying any attention to details. I agree with you. Ignore the details completely. And ignore the exposition of this over the centuries. And ignore many things. Yeah, you might be able to torture this. You know, there's an old saying, if you torture the data, it'll confess to anything. This is, I think this is a shameful straw man. He's erecting her. This is the way it's going to be. That means pretty much artwork done you can't have it oh yeah no stuffed animals those have got to go although I'm not sure if that is actually a creature of the deep so Now, he never stated in this program whether this was a sermon. It's really odd. If it is a sermon, it's a really odd one. It sounds like it's some kind of a Bible study and an informal one, and I hope that's what it is. But I digress. From there, he was explaining, I've been in their church, and it is hues. That's it. There's no music. There is nothing. There are poems. There is nothing on the walls. They do have family pictures, but they basically... This is anecdotal. Oh, they don't have any... I can't exactly hear exactly what the woman is saying in the background. You know, this image of, well, you know, anybody who's got the other... Well, they're just drab and they don't have any life. They don't like any art. That's kind of nonsense. Again, this is as it pertains to God and it pertains to worship. Just because you can stack up a bunch of flaming dumpster fires from the charismatic movement does not mean... It's amazing because I've listened to him so many times and he actually sounded like... you know, that he's, you know, a good theologian, good researcher when it comes to Rick Warren and things like that. And I think that's the side that people only see. And this is the danger, because people follow people and recommend people based on the fact that they can expose the big heretics. You can expose Joel Osteen all you want. You can expose Hillsong. You can expose, because I know he came out of charismaticism, really doesn't like it. But if that's your standard, We can't be reactionary. I don't think much... I couldn't have, look, I couldn't have fellowship with Chris right now as he is. He would need, I would call, and if you're listening, Chris, I would call you to repentance. To flee from your idols. You cannot serve two masters. It's so serious about idolatry. This is idolatry. Very clear idolatry. Yes, I know we've all got idols of various different degrees, but then there's these idols that are so obvious, clear, statues of God Almighty in the church building near the... they call it an altar or something like that in Lutheran circles but it says in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 verse 9, "...know ye not the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Be not deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters." What does it say if somebody's been born again? It says such were some of you. You were idolaters, now you're no longer idolaters. Ephesians chapter 5. Verses, let me find this again. Read from verse 3, but fornication and all uncleanness, this is Ephesians chapter 5 verse 3, but fornication, all uncleanness, and covetousness, now let it not be named once among you, become a saint, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, unfortunately we heard that earlier, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks, for this ye know, that no whoremonger, or unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, I was craving things that don't belong to you, that you shouldn't have. Who is an idolater and hath any inheritance in the kingdom of God? There's a stern warning. If these sins, talked about in Ephesians chapter 5 or in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, when these sins characterize who you are, you'll not inherit the kingdom of God. You know what it says? Let's look at the verse here. Drunkards, let's look at drunkards. It's not saying, right, the verse in 1 Corinthians 6 verses 9 to 11. Not that if you get drunk one time that you definitely lost. I remember a few days after I was saved I drank too much. Did it mean I was lost? No. But I was, after I did, I was convicted. And I was very young in the Lord and I had a drinking past and things like that. And that was back in March of 2009. I haven't been drunk since. Such were some of you. Verse 11 of 1 Corinthians chapter 6. What's it talking about? Drunkards, people who are drunk, people who live for alcohol. from nor revilers nor extortioners. Look at all these sins that would say, if you were belong to these sins, do you belong to Christ? And we go back to verse nine. Be not deceived. Be ye not, be not deceived. Why does this say, what does Paul say to the Corinthians? Be not deceived because people are deceived. neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor abuses themselves, nor adulterers, but look like fornicators, idolaters. Idolaters. I mean, there is nothing. So, and I'm trying to think of what they're Lutheran or whatever it is, and I don't know what they are. But this, they're taking it. Right. They're taking this kind of at face value without any definition. Because when they're in church, they cannot have anything to look at because then you're not focusing on God. Because they say, well, Jesus, you know, the cross. They say, no, because if you're looking at something and you're thinking about something, Now, there is a religion that is notorious in this sense, as far as the graven images and images regarding these things, and that's Islam. Most of the artwork of Islam is geometric. Wow. Yeah, Islam uses buildings. Should we not use buildings? It's kind of a logical fallacy to say just because they are against Islam believes in modesty for women. Should we do the complete opposite of everything? I can't think of too many places where we would agree, oh, Islam believes in monotheism. I know, I know there's issues with that and all that, but just say, like, Islam believes in one God. Well, you know, there's a religion that's monotheistic. This, it's underhand. I don't like when people do this. It is deceptive. It's leading people astray. This is not something where, you know, well, could have difference of opinion. Be not deceived. I don't know the state of the man's heart. I don't. All I know from this sermon and other things is, well, he swats and kind of jokes about the Second Commandment, swats it aside, while it's not really, the Second Commandment's not really there, it's not really Second Commandment's part of First Commandment, but let's deal with it anyway. So it's kind of a mute point, if that's the case. And not only that, makes jokes about their visible representation of Christ. how much regard if you're doing that... Look, if you're going after people who say, well, Andy Stanley doesn't believe the Old Testament should be followed anymore, well, Chris Rosevelt believes that the Second Commandment shouldn't be observed anymore. that idols are okay to form, that these idols are actually a gift from God. Now you'd say, well, the brazen serpent, he's gonna bring it up later on. Yeah, that was commanded by God. Show me the picture and the image and the geometrics and all the other stuff we're supposed to do in creating our image of Christ. Oh, we don't have that. Where do we get it from? Our imagination. And anyway, the brazen serpent, as he will point out later on, eventually became an idol. Deuteronomy chapter 4 is very, very clear. Have you noticed that? Do all that fancy stuff on their hands. That's actually, I think, Indian culture. It's Muslim? Okay, alright. No, not tattoos. They're kind of like temporary. But they do all the drawing and it's all geometric. It's all geometric. Right. So, at face value, if we believe this is the second commandment, all artwork, gone. But then the commandment goes on. You shall not make for yourself a carved image of any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. And here's the next part. You shall not bow down to them to serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers and the children, the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. And so it's the second part of this that makes us believe, along with kind of the church Catholic for millennia, that this is actually a subset of the commandment, you will have no other gods before me. That make sense? This isn't a standalone commandment. You still have to deal with it regardless even if you do believe that. And there's a sense in which that is true because the commandments 1 to 4 are summarized down into one commandment. Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. But there's no legitimate case can be made for it but I digress. This is in fact a subset of the first commandment, having no other gods before me. Now how do we know this? Can we say this confidently? Well, I want you to open up to Numbers 21, and we're going to work with the assumption that God would never command someone to sin. That's contrary to the nature of God. Numbers 21, starting at verse 4, we hear this shocking report about the children of Israel in the wilderness. Are you ready? Numbers 21 verse 4, from Mount Hor, they set out by the way to the Red Sea to go around the land of Edom, and the people became impatient on the way, and the people spoke against Moses and against God, and here's how it went, and I know this is the tone. Why have you brought us out here to Egypt to die in the wilderness? We know this is true because we've all been in this car, right? Is this a way to speak about adultery when sharing the word of God? We should be somber and sober when we're dealing with the sin of the children of Israel, but no, turn it into a big joke. I struggle when I see him making such light of such serious sin, I struggle to see the difference between him in times like this And a Stephen Furtick. I really do. And that might get me in a lot of trouble for saying that. Why? What's the issue with Stephen Furtick and all these other people? They make light of God's commandments. This is just sinful and wrong. I've listened to his program for years on and off different times and generally it's been pretty good. I think I've quoted it on the program and used the source and things like this. But again I reiterate this is not something that can be ignored. At all. I wish it could be. The disagreement would be something? No. If this isn't serious, what is? What is anymore in the evangelical church? Do we just go after the crazies? Or are we supposed to lovingly rebuke and call people to repentance? There's no food, no water. We loathe this manna. So the Lord's solution, the Lord sent fiery serpents, nechashim seraphim in the Hebrew. Among the people, these are the bronze desert adders. And one of the reasons they're called fiery serpents is because if they bite you, the venom literally makes you feel like you're on fire from the inside out. That's one of the way that neurotoxin works. Okay, so the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people. They bit the people so that many of the people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, we've sinned. We've spoken against Yahweh and against you. Pray to the Lord that he take away the serpents from us. So Moses prayed. Pray for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, make a fiery serpent, set it on a pole. Everyone who is bitten when he sees it shall live. So Moses said, God, the second commandment says you shall not make a graven image. Why would you have me do that? Because the second commandment is about using your imagination to form images about the one we are worshiping or bowing down and serving. This is not from our imagination. As we look upon it, it acts as a temporary sacrament in the Old Testament. Again, the difference is God gave them the commandment to do this in worship. Notice that's not what the text says. Yeah, that's the Roseboro invented version here to make a point. Notice, no protest on the part of Moses. Moses doesn't go, dude, no, man, second commandment, man. Okay, he doesn't do that. Moses goes and he made a bronze serpent. He set it on a pole, and if the serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent. Consistent with the regular principle of worship, according to the revealed will of God, And eventually they would turn that bronze serpent into an idol. He does point this out later on. His point, his general point, and we have to wrap it up here, unfortunately, because we're out of time. If anybody wants me to continue with this critique, I will do it for another program. Otherwise, I'll just leave it here and pray that I don't know what exactly can be done about this because his church clearly accepts this idolatry. I'm pretty sure it does, the Lutheran group that he's part of. So it's really going to be a question of how people outside of that circle in the quote-unquote discernment ministry universe are going to deal with him. Myself and Chris Rose were both have, you know, issues with Michael Brown. And the craziness that went on in the Browns Revival. However. And what's, you know, the strange fire and it's it's irreverent. But what is this? But strange fire and irreverent, just a different style of it. What else can be said about it? We can stick our heads in the sand and say well this isn't happening because we've all probably been benefited from some of Chris's programs over the years and maybe got some information from him over the years but all this time His major premise is this, as long as you don't worship the image itself, then it's okay. The difference with the image of Christ is it's from somebody's imagination of how they view God. It will corrupt you. Again, Deuteronomy 4, verses 12-16. And again, to reiterate, I'm not aware of any group that says, that forms an image Roman Catholics, when they're praying before the statue of Mary, they don't say they're actually praying to the statue. They believe that they're praying to Mary. Isn't that true? They actually believe they're praying to Mary, not to the actual statue itself. Again, to quote Thomas Aquinas, as quoted in the Catholic Catechism, He said, "...religious worship is not directed to the images in themselves, considered as mere things. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as an image, but tends toward that whose image it is." This is Roman Catholicism. This is Roman Catholicism's position on idols, on statues. And are we not, are people gonna not have a problem with this all of a sudden? The reason I commented on this is because, yeah, some people have said things and a lot of these critiques, shall we say, haven't been done very, very carefully, I think. And yeah, there is a difference. There is a difference between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is a synagogue of Satan. It denies the gospel. I do not deny that there are Lutheran churches that preach the gospel and are not involved in obvious overt idolatry. And I acknowledge consubstantiation is an issue and all this kind of stuff, and also the issue of baptism regeneration and how far they take that and that kind of mess, but this is more overt. Cannot be ignored. regardless of how many good articles may be put out or how many exposés or how many flaming dumpster fires that he may find in charismaticism. An idolater cannot be our source. I'm not, you can glean from it and all that, but I wouldn't share it. I would probably, you know, like I do with a number of other websites, I don't, I subscribe to them and I will do the research all over again. or go to the original source, whatever. Anyway, not something I really wanted to do, but I've been sitting on this for a couple of weeks and I felt convicted to cover it. And I hope it's be a blessing to your soul. Obviously, things like this are not pleasant. We don't want to, you know, go after needless controversy at all. But when I see him being accepted in a lot of different circles as orthodox, as conservative, and he would very much say he's orthodox, conservative, traditional, whatever he may be, he's an idolater. And I don't say that lightly. Any questions, mcgillifilms at gmail.com. If you want more, watch the film, The Shack, It's Dangerous Theology and Error, which goes through more in the Second Commandment. More is explained on that. Go to MegiddoRadio.com. I've also done things in the Second Commandment. I preached a message on the Second Commandment. It is on Sermon Audio, I think. So you can find that somewhere and it's called I think something the the downgrade, the modern downgrade of the second commandment. I hope this has been a blessing. I hope this has helped you in some way, shape or form. Thank you so much for listening in. It's been Paul Flynn. May God bless you all.