Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling is a live call-in radio program providing doctrinal dialogue, cultural commentary, and insightful interviews with some of today's foremost Christian authors and leaders. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. The goal of the church and the radio program is to seek the glory of God in the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of the saints. by the Ministry of the Word. For more information, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Here with today's edition of Knowing the Truth is Pastor Kevin Bolling. Hey, welcome into this edition of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. This is Pastor Kevin Bolling. So glad that you joined us on the broadcast today. We're hoping to be joined here by an author in just a little bit to talk about his book about Jesus and his enemies. although we're having a little bit of some technical difficulty on our end on trying to hook up some of the Skype connection. We're going to try to work through that a little bit while we're going through the broadcast today. The gist of the discussion today is going to be on the idea that a lot of times today we're told by so many different people that if we just would do ministry in the way that the Lord Jesus Christ did during his day, if we would just be more like Christ, the world would love us, and the world would embrace the message that we have, that we're giving out about the gospel message. But what we find is, we find that that is probably not an accurate picture of what took place during the life of Christ. When we look at his life and we look at his message and the way that it was received in the world, We find that Christ was hated by many different groups of people, different entities, if we could put it that way, I guess, throughout his ministry. We find that he was hated by people in this world. He was hated by politicians. He was hated by the Pharisees. His message was not received well at all. In fact, from the moment of his birth until the time that his earthly ministry ended and he left this world in the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, he was hated. He had many enemies, is what we find in the Word of God. And so if that's true, and I believe that it is, and that's the point that we're going to prove throughout the broadcast today, If that's true, then why is it that, or I should put it this way, that will have dramatic ramifications then on the way that we conduct ministry and the way that we speak about the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Because Christ actually told his disciples that this would be the case with them as well. that not only was he hated, but that because he was hated, and there was this inherent animosity towards the gospel message, that they, if they held to that same message and same methodology, that he had used in spreading that message throughout the world that they too would be hated as well. John chapter 17 and verse 14 says this. This is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking in his high priestly prayer. He says, I have given them thy word and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." So there Christ is plainly saying in his high priestly prayer, he is plainly saying that they're going to be hated, they being his disciples in this world. Well, I want to look at that. I'm going to talk a little bit about that text while we try to work out the differences on our communication lines here with the author, Paul Ulett, and hopefully he'll be joining us. I'll tell you what we're going to do before I get started on this. We're going to take a quick commercial break, see if we can just have Paul call in on the phone line. And then if we can get Paul just on the phone line, we'll bring in the audio for Paul that way, and then see if we can go ahead and initiate a conversation with him about his book. Let's take a quick commercial break. When we come back from the break, hopefully we'll be able to have the author with us today to talk about his book, Jesus. and His Enemies. It's put out by P&R Publishing, that's PRP Books. It's Jesus and His Enemies is the title of that. We're going to look at this list of enemies that we find, or that Paul has laid out in that book. Herod the Great, the people of Nazareth, the folks when Christ cleansed the temple, the Pharisees and so on. Stay tuned, we'll be right back. to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bolling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Would you please welcome the pride of Alexandria, Indiana, your host, Bill Gaither. Hey, thanks, Bill, and welcome to Homecoming Radio. Do we ever have a great show for you? You can hear some of the great music you grew up with on Bill Dather's Homecoming Radio, Saturday evenings at 11 on Christian Talk 92.9. This is Wayne Peterson, president of HCJB Global with Beyond the Call. Sundar and his friend were caught in a frigid snowstorm high in the Himalayan mountains. Struggling to get back to camp, they came upon another victim, unconscious but still alive. Refusing to help, Sundar's friend continued on. If we stop, we'll all die, he said. But Sundar lifted the man on his back and arduously trekked forward. Jesus in Matthew 16 says anyone who keeps his life for himself will lose it. Well, gradually the heat from Sundar's body warmed the man. He awoke, and soon they were forging ahead arm in arm. A mile from camp, they caught up to Sundar's friend, dead, frozen by the cold. Even when it's inconvenient, unselfish Jews who can't care for themselves show them God's love by going beyond the call. This is Wayne Peterson. What is God asking you to do today? Make it a day that you go beyond the call, and then visit us online at hcjb.org. Christmas is right around the corner, and Personal Defense Outfitter is ready to help you select the perfect gift for your loved ones. They offer competitive pricing on quality firearms and accessories, as well as Christmas sale items. Their CWP and other training classes are taught by highly trained professionals. Please visit Personal Defense Outfitter today at 12 South Main Street in Traveler's Rest to shop, sign up for a class, or even purchase a gift certificate. That's Personal Defense Outfitter in Traveler's Rest. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into our discussion today. We're talking about Christ and his enemies. I was mentioning at the top of the broadcast, we had a little bit of a couple of technical difficulties, but we worked around them here a little bit in this studio. And what we're able to do is just bring our guest in today via the phone lines. And so we're going to go ahead and do that. Let me just remind you again of the topic that we're talking about. We're talking about Jesus and his enemies, and the way that this relates to us, it's a very relevant topic, because as I mentioned in the opening part of the broadcast, so often today we're told that, you know, if the Church is hated today because the Church has somehow veered from the message of Christ or the methodology of Christ in giving out the gospel message, In some cases, that may be true, but generally speaking, you know, Christ, the image of Christ or the way that people are thinking about Christ and His ministry is being used then to bludgeon Christians today to say, you know, if you were more like Christ and gave the message out more like Christ, everybody would love you and the world would receive the gospel message and everything would be great. Well, is that really the truth? Is that really what we find when we look in the Scripture? Or do we have a false image of what Christ's ministry, what it was like, and how it was really received in the world? That's what Paul's book deals with. It examines the various types of opposition that Jesus encountered—demonic, political, religious, emotional, physical, and spiritual—and it helps us then to understand why this opposition happened in both the life of Christ and why it is happening in our life today. Paul Ulett is the pastor of Shrewsbury Evangelical Church in Shrewsbury, England, and Paul joins us now via the phone line. Paul, thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks, Kevin. It's great to be here with you. Excellent. I'm glad we could work it out technically here. And I wanted to talk a little bit, obviously, about your book. Did I lay the case out accurately? Is this why you've written this book? Absolutely right. I mean, I went to take a youth conference about three or four years ago, and I took as my theme, Christian living in a dark world. And my case was, why is it that Christians find life hard? Well, the point is, of course, that Jesus himself, when he was in this world had many many opponents and enemies and if he had them we'll have them as well. So if you look at his life and his enemies we'll learn how to face enemies ourselves. And as I pointed out, you know, so often today we're told, you know, we just need to be more positive. And if we were just more positive in our preaching and, you know, be more like Jesus was, then the world would just with open arms receive us and everything would go fine for us. But that is just not the case, right? That's right, I mean, obviously the message we present is, in the end, gloriously, wonderfully positive, but we've got to deal with the difficult bits first, and we've got to say to folk, listen, we all have a problem, it's called sin, and Jesus shows us what that problem is, and he preached as no man ever did preach, and he taught and healed and wonderful things, but of course, unlike any man before or since, he was hated, persecuted, And we know that very well. So it's not the case at all. We've just got to make it jazzier or more exciting or more appealing. You know, the more faithful we are to his own ministry, Jesus' own ministry, then we will find ourselves that we face the same treatment as he faced in his life. And the bottom line seems to be that there is an inherent animosity from the world to the message of Christ, that there's been a division between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent from the very beginning, And although we shouldn't try to do something that would add any additional stumbling blocks, we need to realize that there is this inherent animosity built into that message. Is that true? Exactly right. I mean, the first chapter lays that point out. The light shines in the darkness. Jesus is the light. He's shone in the darkness, but the darkness doesn't understand. The darkness hates the light. And that's the first thing we've got to realize, until we realize that point, that In every man, every woman, every child, there is this inherent, this native fallenness and antipathy towards Jesus and his message. We won't know where to start at all. So it's the first and most important point, and it's there throughout the book, really, as well. Now you start, then, Paul, by looking at some of the invisible enemies in high places, and you go all the way to the end of the book. Well, you talked about the introduction there within John chapter 3, but In that chapter, in the one about the invisible enemies in high places, you go all the way to the end of the book in the Bible, in Revelation chapter 12, and talk about some of the enemies there. Tell us why you do that in the beginning of the book, and tell us what our listeners will find when they look at that chapter. Well, we need to understand that it's not simply a human battle that Jesus and Christians are facing. It's a spiritual and it's a demonic battle, and as Paul says in Ephesians, we wrestle not against flesh and blood only, we do, but against spiritual wickedness in high places. So from the very beginning, from Genesis 3, you have the seed of the woman, as you say, the seed of the serpent, and that whole biblical conflict comes to its head and to its absolute climax as Jesus is born, and as he faces up to Satan in the wilderness, and indeed throughout his life and ministry. And so it's no mere political or personal animosity we're talking about. It's something that is absolutely cosmic, and Jesus deals the death blow ultimately to the enemy of all our souls. So, you know, we need to see the scale and the setting and, in a sense, the grandeur of this conflict, and the way in which Jesus not only fights, but is triumphant in the end. So that's a very, very important part. I wasn't going to include that actually initially in my chapters, but as I went through I thought, you can't exclude that aspect of the enmity against Jesus, it's so essential to it all. Yeah, I think that that is excellent that you did include that, because that gives us, you know, the big picture view of what is taking place, showing us that it is not even just during the earthly ministry of Christ, but this is a much broader view of what is taking place. There is this, you know, repeated animosity from the fall of Satan himself, obviously here then in the Garden as well as it relates to us, but all the way through the end, even in the consummation of all this in the book of the Revelation. So I think that it's really good that you included that portion of it there. When we look back to the earth and to the visible enemies of Christ, one that you have identified is Herod the Great in Matthew chapter 2. I mentioned that Christ was hated from the time he was born all the way to the time that he ascended. Well, here it is right in the very beginning, Matthew chapter 2. Christ is born, and right away, what do we find but animosity against Christ? Tell us what listeners will find in that chapter. Well, what I've tried to show is that it's really a tale of two kings, and there is a huge contrast between the character, the methodology, the very personality, the rule of Herod, and that of Christ himself. And in a sense, on the surface, you look at it as we're familiar with our Christmas stories, you see Jesus born in a manger in Bethlehem, you see Herod as the ruler who is so powerful, such a tyrant, But of course, at the end of the story, even as it were in chapter 2 itself, Herod dies. Jesus lives. Herod is powerless. Herod's ends are not met. Herod can't actually get the prey that he wants, but Jesus is protected, he's kept, he's delivered into Egypt and then out again, and it's a It's a recap, in a sense, of the whole life of Israel. Just in a sense, as Moses was protected from the king's wrath, from Pharaoh's wrath, so Jesus was. And just as Israel came out of Egypt into the Promised Land, so Jesus is brought back. In a sense, it's a sort of glorious voyage over the whole of biblical history, but it shows that the true king, the endless king, the eternal king, and above all, the righteous king, is Jesus, and not Herod, and not any other king in any other time of history. And that is such it was such a powerful message to them. Of course that we're living under these dictators that were there obviously later on in the book as we get up to the time of the writing of the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. where they're under the rule of just wicked Caesars and Nero and so forth, these intense persecution, it was certainly a message that was needed for them to understand there. And even now, in our day and age, it certainly is relevant. There are so many Herods, aren't there? You know, there have been Herods ever since, and there will be in time to come as well. That's right. And yet the understanding that message enables the Christian to understand that this man doesn't, this current Herod, doesn't have the final say on what is going to happen. There's somebody above him, and that somebody above him is the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, so in a sense it does tie in with the previous chapter. It's not just about politics and power play and the biggest armies and the most wealth. It's about who holds all power in heaven and on earth, and the Lord Jesus himself does. So in a sense, even in his earliest years as an infant, we see what he said himself after he rose from the dead. All power is given to him. All power is in heaven. So Christians in countries where they're persecuted by some dictator or in countries where there is intense persecution of Christians, as there are in many countries, they can read this chapter and they can say, yep, this Herod may be, in a sense, alive and well today in a different guise. but Jesus is the King of kings and always will be, even in this suffering world. You mentioned in the beginning, Paul, that you had written this book because you were speaking about the idea of that, I think from John 3 there, where it says, and this is the condemnation, that light is coming to the world and men love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh into the light, lest his deed should be reproved." You were mentioning that this was the thrust of it, but was part of it as well seeing the increased persecution that is taking place around the world of the Christian community? It wasn't at the time. I mean, what happened as I began to write this book was that more and more lines of thought began to open up to me. And in a sense, the initial aim was just to try and bring to a number of young people aged roughly 15 to 20 that as they go into university, into adult life, they will be more and more keenly aware of the evil which is around them. But of course, so multifaceted are the enemies of Jesus and their strategies and their their ambitions and the ways in which they oppose Christians, that persecution, that kind of enmity became more and more apparent the more I looked at Jesus's life and ministry. So in a sense it does It does reach rather further than the initial plan had in mind, yeah. The persecution that's taking place now, the increase of it, the Christian Church has had the enjoyed relative peace for the last number of years, maybe I could say 50 or maybe even go further than that, 100 years or so. I don't know what it's like there in the UK, of course, but here in the States, really, it's been relative peace. And, you know, there's been a lot of working favorably along with the state and so forth on doing a number of initiatives here working together, even for like feeding the poor or doing these types of things. But all of that over the last, especially in the last five years or so, has changed quite dramatically. There's been this aggressive now posture that is being taken against Christians, and more and more of that is getting ratcheted up on a daily basis. What's your commentary on that, having written a book like this? What would you say to Christians that now see this coming to pass? Well, the same thing's happening here in the UK, just briefly. I mean, we have this law about gay marriage, which has now gone through, and there's more and more arrests of Christian preachers on the streets and things of that kind. And I think it's simply a reminder to us that the words of Scripture are true. You know, we know that it's a truism. You know, Jesus said, if they hated me, they will also hate you. and we need to not be surprised, says our Lord, that the world should hate us. And I think that has several sort of spin-off effects. We have a greater sense of solidarity with fellow Christians in countries where there is much more physical persecution. We have more solidarity too, spiritually, with those in the Scriptures and in church history who have gone before us who did suffer in various ways. I think also I would say that although we obviously want to see what we might call success, we would love to see Christians being accepted, we would love to see Christian policies and ideas and so forth being realized in the public world, but actually when the Christian, in a sense, looks most like the Savior, is when he is undergoing persecution and suffering, but bearing up and still doing what is right. just as Peter says in his first letter. You know, if you do wrong and you're punished, well, you know, what good is that? But if you're suffering for doing good, well, the spirit of glory and of grace and of Christ rests upon you. So I think it's a message not to grow weary or faint-hearted. We go outside the camp bearing the reproach that he bore, and suffering with Jesus, suffering for the sake of the gospel, is no shame for the Christian in its identification with him. in his own glory, in his own suffering. So that would be my message, I think, to suffering Christians. Mm-hmm. I had posted out on Facebook this morning talking about that we were going to be addressing this issue on the program today, and part of that post said this, Therefore, the good opinion of the world is about the last thing a true Christian should expect or desire. Luke chapter 6 and verse 26 says, Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you. So, you know, if we're looking for the applause of men, a lot of times that comes at the expense of the approval of God as to what we are saying. And every time that is the case, obviously, we should go with the approval of God rather than the applause of men. I want to continue this thought, Paul, if you would, if you can stay with us in the next half an hour. We're going to take a quick commercial break, but let me remind our listening audience we're speaking with Paul Ulett. Paul is the author of the book Jesus and His Enemies. The book is published by Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, PNR Books, Their website is prpbooks.com. You can go out there in order to find out how you can get a copy. Or better yet, I'm giving away a couple of copies during the broadcast today. So if you'd like to get a copy of this book and look at this issue, the way that you can do that is for your participation in the program today, either via email or the phone line. I'll give you that number when we come back from the break. Stay tuned. you're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. He's outspoken, he's controversial, and he's concerned that Christianity may be headed for a funeral. On the next Janet Mefford Show, Pastor Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Church will join me to talk about his new book, A Call to Resurgence. David Horowitz is a progressive-turned-conservative who's seen it all in American politics. He'll join me to talk about The Black Book of the American Left. That and a whole lot more next time. Join us for the Janet Mefford Show. This afternoon from 3 to 5 on Christian Talk 660 and 92.9. Hi, it's Scott Tanzel, host of the Trader's Edge. You will not want to miss the show this weekend as we continue a conversation that we've been having the last few weeks on you and your 401k account. Yes, it could be a 403b. Yes, it could be a thrift savings account, but that family of retirement accounts that exist in the financial markets with 50 million individuals across the United States and there's millions of individuals right here in the Carolinas who have 401k accounts offered to them by their employer company matched funds right they match the funds up to a certain point which entices you to put capital into these products, into these vehicles, and that's exactly what Wall Street wants you to do for a long period of time so they can siphon away the capital that you work so hard for on a weekly basis. They essentially steal this capital from you to the tune of 15 to 50 percent. It doesn't have to be that way. Tune in this weekend. It's The Trader's Edge, Saturday at 11 a.m. Then again on Sunday at 4 p.m. right here on Christian Talks 660. If you're suffering from anger, depression, anxiety, or addictive behaviors, Word of God Counseling Center is a non-profit biblical counseling center founded to help people resolve these issues as well as marriage problems. Word of God Counseling Center is non-denominational and pastoral based. They're online at wogcounseling.org. And their phone number is 246-3551. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into the second half of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. We're talking with author Paul Ulett. Jesus and His Enemies is the title of the book that he has written. Very interesting book about the enemies of Christ and looking at the biblical record of what is the truth about the way that Christ's message was received when he was here in this world during his earthly ministry. And so we're looking at what that record says as to then what we should expect. If we continue along with the same message and the same methodology of putting that message out, what should we expect then as the church, as the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ? Let me tell you that I am giving away copies of the book today on the radio program, so if you'd like to receive a copy of the book, What we can do is mail the copy out to you, courtesy of the good folks there at PNR Books. And so a couple of ways that you can participate in the program today. One, we have a toll-free number set up. It's good nationwide. That number is 1-888-660-9535. Again, that's 1-888-660-9535. You can call that number with your question or comment. Or you can shoot me an email, and my email address is simply just kttradio at gmail.com. That's kttradio, that's all one word, at gmail.com. Be happy to take your question or comment that way in order to work in your comment into our discussion. And in either case, just shoot me an email afterwards with your mailing address so that we know where to send the book out, and we'll give those books away while supplies last on the broadcast today. Let's go back to our discussion. I want to continue on as we talk about the different places and people that we found the animosity of Christ, animosity to Christ throughout the Scriptures. We've talked about a couple of those places already. And I want to continue on that. I want to talk about the people of Nazareth, and what about that group when the Lord Jesus Christ cleansed the temple, and so forth. But before we do, let's run to the phone lines very quickly. We've got Greg is up first. Greg, what's on your mind today? Hello. I love your show, and I listen often, and I appreciate all you do. Thank you. I always had trouble reconciling, knowing the truth that you're talking about today. Jesus said he will You hate it, they hate me, and they'll hate you. And then reconciling that with the proverb that says, if your ways please the Lord, you'll make even your enemies to be at peace with you. And I just always had trouble reconciling those two things, and often wondered why the world hated me the way it does. touch on that. Yeah, great, great question. I'm glad you brought that text up as well. Greg, you want to hang on for a second? And now let me toss it. I'll just listen off air. Okay, great. Could you hear that question? Okay, Paul. I could hear most of it. I think the gist of it was Why is it that people would hate us, even if we're trying not to make enemies of people? Why does that happen to us? I mean, I think he was also— Is that lovely, the gist of the question? Yeah, and he was taking into consideration the proverb that spoke about that if we're doing the Lord's will, that the Lord would make even our enemies to be at peace with us. Yes, I mean, I think there is—obviously there is truth in that. And you think about Paul saying to Timothy in 1 Timothy 2, They should pray for those in authority that we may lead a peaceful and a quiet life. And I think we should, even with all of this focus on the enmities, the enmity that we have with people around us, the norm should be that Christians should not be at enmity with their neighbors, they should be good citizens, they should be peaceable people, they shouldn't, obviously, go out of their way to ruffle feathers, as we say, or to create animosity. And I think that the key thing, of course, is that we should make sure that it's only the message itself that we proclaim which is offensive. The way in which we go about proclaiming it by our words and by our lives should always be peaceable, always be eager to be conciliatory, and so forth. But when we are all of those things, it's then that we understand and see at first hand that it's the message itself which is offensive to people. It teaches them, it tells them that they can't save themselves, that they're sinners before God, and that's a message which every generation of people has found unpalatable and upsetting. So, of course, Christians should be, in most societies, peace-loving people and people that are welcomed and approved of by those around them. But the message will have that effect of alienating us from But that text says that if a man's ways please the Lord, he'll make even his enemies to be at peace with him. I would think that the concept there is the idea that any of the additional ways that we would bring reproach upon us, that those ways would be removed if we are pleasing the Lord, but he's not referring to the inherent animosity that would come against us. And I think also, excuse me, that I remember this with one of the authors that specifically wrote about creation issues. His name is escaping me right now, but even his enemies, they said that they dramatically disagreed with him about creation, but they had respect for him nonetheless about the way that he presented his position and so forth after his death. So they fought him tooth and nail when he was alive, but yet, you know, he had a good testimony that in the way that he conducted himself, he did it in a way that was honoring to the Lord. So do you think some of those thoughts would be brought into the understanding of that text? Definitely they would. I'm sure about that. I mean, I can think of cases where where there were families where one member became a Christian, the brothers and sisters didn't, and the brothers and sisters may be more successful in worldly terms than the one who became a Christian, and the parents may profoundly disagree with the message and the lifestyle, as it were, of the Christian, but over time they actually see that there is a solidity, there is a strength, there is something profoundly winsome and attractive about the lives of Christians. Let's run back to the phone line. We've got another caller, Suzanne. What's your question today, Suzanne? Well, I'm following up on the previous question. I just have found that part of the Christian body is very man-pleasing, and they seem to just do great and swimmingly in life, and they seem to just have peace at all costs. And then it seems like there's maybe a remnant church or a separated group that, it's not that they're more strict, it's just that they are living a holier type of lifestyle. Christian faith. And the worldly Christians are the ones, I think, that come against the godly Christians. Have you guys noticed that? I have noticed that a lot, that most of the animosity, a lot of times, that comes, you know, or hurled at us from those that actually profess sometimes the Lord Jesus Christ, which is obviously disturbing in and of itself. But I think that you're right, you know, if we compromise the Gospel to such a level where it's barely even distinguishable at times, you know, the world is going to be just fine with that, and going to embrace that. Yeah, I think it's the megachurch. It's almost like the National Church in China, where the National Church and the megachurch is widely accepted. But it's the underground church and the house churches and those people that are persecuted. Yeah, and I don't know if I could put it just in terms of the actual numbers that are there. There are very good churches that have a lot of individuals in it that have held the line very closely to the Word of God. I'm thinking a little bit like John MacArthur's church in California. We're probably talking 5,000 to 10,000 members or something, and yet, obviously, John MacArthur has held the line and preached very faithfully on these issues. But so I don't know if just the numbers, but I know what you're saying, generally speaking, you're going to get like a Joel Osteen church, right, where he doesn't want to talk about sin at all, and largest church in America right now, and those types of things. That's going to be much more palatable to the world. if he's not going to take a stand on these issues, and the world's going to embrace that. So from that standpoint, I would agree. If you're willing to compromise the message, you're going to be much more received by this world, if that's the bottom line to, I think, what you're saying. Okay. Let me toss that to the author as well. Remember, shoot me an email, kttradioatgmail.com, with your mailing address, both you and Greg, the previous caller, and we'll make sure that we get a copy of the book sent out to you, okay? Thank you so much. Thank you, Suzanne. Paul, could you hear that okay? She was just saying, you know... Was that loud and clear? Yes, I did. Okay, would you like to comment? Yeah, I mean, I think we see much the same thing here in the UK. Where we live in Shrewsbury, it's a smallish town, 70,000 people, but it's a kind of microcosm, I think, of what you find across the whole of the UK. And I think essentially what more and more people who go to church are looking for is not for teaching, is not for truth. They're looking for other things which are not bad, you know, they're looking perhaps for fellowship, for companionship, they're even looking for music and things like that, but they're not looking primarily for the Word and to be instructed. And I think it's not the same everywhere in the UK. There are pockets which are relative, I say, Bible belts, where the larger churches tend to be the ones where the teaching is the strongest. But you will find that there is a tendency and obsession at times to to get people in, to get people on seats, and that any means are possible to try and draw a crowd. And what I find fascinating in that connection is how the Lord Jesus Himself in John 6, He'd had a great crowd following Him, of course, after the feeding of the 5,000. He then spoke to them about being the bread of life and the true manna that comes down from heaven. And then they all wanted to go and not follow him, and only the twelve remained. And Jesus said to them, do you want to go as well? And you think to yourself, would any evangelist today use that kind of approach and say, you know, do you want to go? How's he going? We would say, you know, come, follow me. And it just shows that as far as the Lord was concerned, it is the truth, faithful truth, with the bits about sin, the bits about rejection, the bits about hell and everything. which have to be preached, have to be taught, and when you understand them, only then can you understand the wonder and glory of the Gospels. So I think what the last scholar said about things in the States is very true here as well. Can you imagine the church consultants, you know, pulling the Lord Jesus Christ aside? And by the way, there are such animals as these church consultants. And can you imagine them pulling him aside and saying, you know, tone down that whole idea about eating your flesh and drinking your blood. You know, this isn't good for the offering. And yet the Lord Jesus Christ, you know, preached that message, as you said. When we look around the cross, when he's at the end, first of all, they crucify him. because of that message. He's put to death because of what he said. And then, when you look around the cross, there's very few. Even his own disciples have fled. I'll smite the shepherd and the sheep shall scatter. And so, you know, why should we expect? The Christian church has never been in the majority. And when the few times that it was, possibly in the majority, were not good times throughout church history. Jairus Meyer's message was, he's called the weeping prophet for a reason. Micaiah in the Old Testament is one of my heroes, where Micaiah preached the truth and he received nothing but a smite on the cheek and then thrown back into the prison for it. I mean, this is the lot of the people of God And we we need a more accurate picture of what that's like. And that's what your book does, especially with the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Let's run back to the phone line. We've got Jack is up next. And then, Greg, you're right behind him. Gregory is right behind him. Jack, what's on your mind today? Yes, that book sounds fascinating. I didn't get the author's last name. It's called Ulett. And that spelling is Y-E-U-L-E-T-T. Well, I did have a question directly for Paul. He had mentioned that there's a persecution of street pastors in Great Britain, or street preaching. And I was wondering, specifically, what are they arresting them for? What are the charges? And what are the preachers saying that's so distasteful that they're putting them under arrest? Good question. Thank you, Jack. We'll toss that to Paul and let him answer that question. Could you hear? Yeah. The answer is that they are being arrested primarily for actually reading from from portions of 1 Corinthians 5, et cetera, which say that homosexuality, the practice is a sin. That is the big hot potato issue in the UK at the moment. There is this terrible fear that if that issue is raised, in the public arena, then people are guilty of some kind of homophobic hate crime. As I said earlier on, that law has now gone through Parliament, whereby a man can marry another man or a woman, another woman. Gay marriages will be happening in the next 12 months in the UK. And there is such a sensitivity about that, that if any street preacher raises that issue in the streets in this country, they are liable to be apprehended by the police, although there is no law against it as such. It is simply a kind of a prejudice. They're not breaking a law. They are exercising the freedom of speech, which pastors in this country have had for many, many years. So it's a it's a misapplication of the law. But it's that issue more than any other. Probably the others would involve issues around Islam, things like that. But the homosexual issue is the one where there is there is a special You know that our U.S. Supreme Court, when we're dealing with that issue here in the States, when it went up before the Supreme Court, they told us when the DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, and it related to this issue, One of the Supreme Court justices who dissented on the decision said that the rest of the court had basically viewed that anyone who disagreed with them on this issue was an enemy of the human race. That's what he actually listed in his dissent. So this isn't just, you know, some guy on the street making this statement. This is the United States Supreme Court justice is saying that if anybody disagrees with them on this issue of the inherent gender difference between a man and a woman and what the definition of marriage is, that they are an enemy of the human race. You can see that we're getting into times here where it is going to cost you to articulate the Christian position on this issue. It's going to cost you business, if you're a businessman. And it may cost you your freedom very soon. You may be locked up because of that position. And it may eventually even cost you life as we go forward. And this is what we're talking about. remaining faithful to the gospel message has ramifications. It always has, and it always will, and so I think that that is something we've got to take into consideration. Let's run back to the phone line again. Gregory is up next. Gregory, what's on your mind? Well, you guys have entered the dialogue that I wanted to bring up, which is to speak the truth amidst the hostility towards believers with regard to sexual orientation and sexual ethics which are contrary to the scriptures and basically I wanted to ask the author to give his insight on how to best articulate that message in dealing with that hostility being that we can always take the approach from a Christian perspective and talk about how there's a legitimate reason to believe in God and that we have a freedom to follow our conscience and so forth. but also there are more secular arguments to make, such as, this is a tolerant society and we want to support diversity, and therefore Christians should have an opportunity to express their views as anyone else. My question is just for the author to perhaps give some insight that he may have as to the best strategy to use to offset the hostility that people have in their mindset that if you're a Christian, then you should just keep your mouth shut in the public sphere. Good question, Gregory. We really appreciate it. We'll go ahead and let you take it offline just so you can hear the answer better. Could you hear him okay, Paul? I could, yes. Yes, I could hear that. I mean, We are in a similar situation to what you've just described about the U.S. Supreme Court. Our Deputy Prime Minister has labeled those who oppose same-sex marriage as bigots. And that kind of language is being used. There's a fairly conservative paper, the Daily Telegraph, which quite recently spoke of hardliners as those who support heterosexual marriage are hardliners. So the territory has shifted dramatically in the last 40 or 50 years. But I think to come back to the question which the caller just had, I think with all of these issues, we have to, first of all, be clear that we don't always address these issues only and solely, and we're not always banging on about them. I think that some of our opponents would sort of jump on us if they perceived that we had a particular issue and a particular gripe about homosexuality. So we don't isolate it. We situate it in a general context of the falling away of a nation from godly principles, whether it's here or in the US. And I think when we do that, we don't, again, we don't just talk about homosexuality, we talk about sin, we talk about sin as any deviation, any falling short of God's holy standards. But if I could say one more thing, which is unpopular and unpalatable, sometimes Christians will say, well, there's no difference at all between homosexual sin and heterosexual sin. You know, they are that's true as far as it goes, but there is that unnatural aspect of a sexual activity which needs to be understood from the Scripture, and in Romans 1 it is shown to be quite a long way down the line, isn't it? So, I mean, going back to what I said earlier on about saying everything with gentleness and respect, we need to have our convictions held very clearly and to know why these things are sin, but at the same time not to be seen to be focusing exclusively on this one sin and not anything else. So the strategy there for Gregory is that, you know, we remain consistent in preaching the whole counsel of God. When we talk about sins, especially this one, this falls in the category of sexual sins, we equally talk against adultery in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. as we do against the perversion of sexual sins in homosexual relationships. So we're not, like you were saying, just zeroing in on one thing. One of the reasons is that this gets such attention is we don't find people that are committed in adultery marching in the streets demanding that they get hired into certain businesses, that they give minority status, and all of these types of rights issues along with it. And therefore, we're fighting on a couple of different fronts. We're fighting about how our society should look at this, and we're speaking in the public square about what should be the view of these things. At the same time, preaching the gospel and the whole gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ in a number of other areas. We equally stand up against what's taking place with abortion in this world as well. And so, you know, we're an equal opportunity exposer of the sins that are taking place in this world. And that's right that we should be doing that and not just focus on a particular one. I like to say to the folks in the congregation where I pastor, I remind them that the temptation is going to be to be marginalized in our view, that don't bring religion into these discussions. Just don't say anything. Just keep your mouth shut and go about your business, and that would be the best way to handle it. But you know what? I like to remind them that silence is golden or sometimes it's just plain yellow. Sometimes we're just a little bit concerned about, overly concerned about what people think about us and not as much concerned about what the Lord Jesus Christ thinks about us. So I would say that for strategy, Gregory, that would be my two cents, is once we start changing what we do based upon the opinions of people, That's when we've got ourselves into trouble. If we just remain faithful to the things of God and, you know, understanding that we are standing, we're accountable to Him first and foremost, that will keep us straight in the way that we go about the strategy on addressing these issues. Paul, very quickly, we only have a couple minutes left in the broadcast and obviously we weren't able to go through all of the different categories that you listed there. Is there one in particular that you were surprised about when you did this study that you saw a particular animosity from a group of people or folks there and you brought that, you know, came out forcefully to your own mind? I think as I came to the end, you'll see on the front cover of the book there's a list of the enemies, and one of them is Simon Peter. And people will think, what? That's a bit unfair on Peter. And then actually he emailed me and said, well, if you ever see Simon Peter, don't give him a free copy of the book. You won't like it. It went like his name, alongside the Sadducees and Pharisees and Herod and Pilate and so forth. But I actually did that because, of course, Peter had been an enemy of Jesus in the denial of him. But what I try and show is that the The reconciliation and the reinstatement of Peter after the resurrection is a glorious, glorious episode in the whole of the Gospels, because you see Peter being newly humbled and recommitted to service. You see him being prepared to live and to die for his Savior. So in the last few chapters, there's actually a bit of a shift away from the pure enmity and malice. towards the way that the Lord forgave those who were his enemies on the cross, who at one stage was mouthing his anger at him, Simon Peter, and then of course Saul of Tarsus at the end. So it's not just a book about enemies and darkness and things of that kind. It's a book that I hope has a glorious end to it. It's a book which I hope would enable people to To understand and to know and to love Jesus more at the end than they did at the beginning Yeah, that was a rather nice conclusion, which wasn't foreseen when I began to write the book Right. Well, I'm so glad you wrote this book. I think it's very timely, of course, as we find it where we find ourselves today in church history. Paul, thank you so much for writing the book. Thank you so much for visiting with us for a little bit here on the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast and talking about it. We really appreciate you doing so. All righty. That was author and pastor Paul Ulett. And the title of the book that we've been discussing for the past 45 minutes or so is a book entitled Jesus and His Enemies. And you can get a copy of that book by going out to Presbyterian and Reform Publishing. P and R is what it's known as now, P and R Publishing. And their website is www.prpbooks.com. Go out to their website and you'll be able to find a copy of it there. I'm able to give away just a limited amount of copies, but the folks that called into the broadcast, if you would like to be in the running for one of those copies, I will go ahead and send them out to the first three people that have called in and also then also submitted your mailing address. I can't get you a copy of the book without your mailing address, so you got to shoot me an email. The email here for the radio broadcast is kttradio at gmail.com. That's kttradio.com. I love the way that Paul ended the broadcast where he was talking about forgiveness. I'm going to be talking about that in our service this Sunday as well, this Lord's Day. We've been doing a study in Hebrews chapter 9. And we're getting now to the section dealing with the purification of sin in the ashes of the red heifer. We'll be looking at that this upcoming Lord's Day. If you don't have a church home, we'd love to have you out there at the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship in Traveler's Rest. If you want information about that, shoot me an email, kttradio at gmail.com. Remember this and all the things that we talk about on this broadcast. that we're referring to the idea that Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. We'll see you next time right here on Knowing the Truth. You've been listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Travelers Rest. For more information about the church and radio ministry Visit us on the web at knowingthetruth.org. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or Clear Channel Communications. 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