And greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. It is a Monday, which means we are doing a Monday, Wednesday, Friday thing. The computer screen isn't working again, but Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we're trying to make up. Is that penance? I'm not really sure if that's penance or not. We're going to try to make up for last week when I was overseas briefly. It was a quick trip to Frankfurt. Thanks very much to Peter and Tobias there in the Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt. Good guys there. They accepted my extremely short notification I was going to be there and we put together some meetings that went real well. We talked about Well, we sort of talked about textual reliability, CBGM the first night, and then we did the Trinity the second night. We were at two different locations and had a few more people show up on Friday night than Thursday night for obvious reasons. I mean, Fridays are a little bit easier for folks to get to. But I had a bunch of young guys from a local seminary showed up and was very encouraged by them and by their statement that their school is very conservative and orthodox and faithful, especially in its view of scripture. Look, Germany doesn't have the greatest reputation on that level. Certainly we know of others. I mean, I've taught in Berlin a number of times at the TMI school there and all those guys would, but still in comparison to the vast majority of, folks in Germany. It's good to hear that. So anyway, and I also had a chance to run up to Las Vegas first and see the grandkids. It's always good to see the grandkids and take them to Barnes & Noble and let them buy whatever they want and that kind of thing. That's what grandparents are for, obviously. And they're homeschooled, so it helps to expand the homeschool library for the kids. go to Olive Garden and do the kind of stuff that we do and it's very enjoyable. So anyways, we didn't have any programs last week and so we're going to sort of make up a little bit because I've got a lot of traveling left to do. I'm going to be down obviously for my 17th year in St. Charles, the first weekend in December. 17 years. We've been doing that now. That's pretty amazing. When you think about it. I sort of feel sorry for them. I think they're just sort of a reflex action. Now that is the pastor gets the first weekend in December off and the strange guy from from Arizona comes out and wears his Coogee sweaters and we do our thing. And so I will be there as per normal, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And every other time we've done this, I've just flown straight home on Sunday afternoon. This time, I'm going down to record some video on the subject of homosexuality, human sexuality, marriage, etc. in Mississippi, the first few days of the week. And then I'm popping back over to Pryor, Oklahoma, where Phil Johnson was this past Sunday, yesterday, to the church there in Pryor. Derek Melton is the pastor there. And so we're going to do something on the five solas on the following weekend there in Pryor. I'm hoping and praying for some clear weather. On one of those nights toward the weekend that i'm not speaking because it's a new moon and i'm hoping i'm gonna i'm gonna take. My camera and a stand and stuff and i'm hoping to get out the dark and. You realize i realize at this particular point in in the year that getting clear skies in december. Probably just going to be dragging my stuff around, not doing anything with it. But we're going to try. We're going to give it a shot. So I've got that coming up. So we've got a lot of travel. And then I'm teaching in Kentucky, January 3rd through 5th. And then we've got G3. And then I'm going to Russia, hopefully going to Russia. That's something we need to be working on ASAP. Um, and, uh, Germany and, uh, and then we've got to get Justin Brierley to, uh, to set up that debate. I mean, look, you know, um, either Wednesday or Friday, depending on how my schedule goes, uh, we're going to be doing a radio free Geneva program. And, uh, for the first time, good old Justin, who has always, Justin has always been the. Neutral moderator he's always it's not that you couldn't tell sort of where he came down on stuff but the fact is that he normally. Keep yourself out of stuff but. He put an article out in the premier Christianity magazine that he, I think, is editor of, or at least very much involved with, and basically took the autonomous free will is necessary to Christian theology perspective. And so, you know, it was a fairly lengthy article, and we're going to we're going to go over it on Radio Free Geneva. And then, you know, hey, he's thrown his hat in the ring. Justin's got to know that we do appropriate proper debates have for a long, long time. Let's debate it. Now he's talking about, well, let's get Roger Olson or Gregory Boyd or Lennox, you know, who did that long book, primarily philosophical book, not an ecstatical book. You know, let's get somebody else. But I'm like, Justin, come on, your audience and my audience are very similar and cross over a whole lot. I've told people about the Unbelievable Radio Broadcast, helped to get an audience going over here in the United States and vice versa. I've been on Unbelievable, I don't know how many times, getting toward 20, somewhere between 12 and 20, somewhere in that range. I think it's around 15, but anyway. I think it would be great. I think it would be everybody be like, yeah, this is this be great. Obviously, they're gonna treat each other with respect. It's gonna be focused on the issues, but it will be, you know, straightforward type thing. So let's let's hope something like that can happen sometime next year. I'm talking with folks about Australia and all over the place. So 2019 is gonna be big year. You've got the microphone up in front of your face. That normally means something. Just a little housekeeping stuff. Um, real quick, we are coming up on the end of the year and the folks that have, um, been repeating donors or just one-time donors. If you haven't received an email from me in response to your donation, then I don't have your email address. And I'm also finding that some of the email addresses that I do have have suddenly turned up bad. I don't know why. So if you haven't received an email from me in a while, you need to give me a call during the week. And I need to update your records and make sure that so that at the end of the year you're going to be able to get your receipts quickly through email because those go out first. So I send them out in PDF form and you can get right on that on your taxes. I also want to mention again as you've discussed in the last few weeks, the travel fund still needs some help. Yeah. And other than that, that's it. Okay. Yeah, the travel fund especially. With all the travel we're going to try to do next year, all over the world is going to be a real important thing. So please remember that as we are working toward planning all sorts of things, including, obviously it would be really nice to do a series in London. We've got a couple of different possibilities on the Islamic side for Different kinds of debates or get one try to do the same thing australia at some point. And you know just do a series of debates that's why you know if i'm gonna be there then you know justin i can at least do a program. On the subject but i'd rather do a serious you know actual. Actual debate if if that would be possible. So we'll see what we can put together about that. But that's that's an important thing. There's there's a Kranmer in channel right now. So I actually wish I could say, hey, you, because I had sent him an email about getting down under, shall we say, which is. Where the, Jeff Durbin and the gang from End Abortion Now were down in Australia, reported on having a good time down there. I'm still stunned that Queensland just legalized abortion. This strikes me as very strange because Australia is an extremely secular country and so that they would just now be doing that. Really, really took me aback. But anyway, that's what's going on there. Don't get me on some of those subjects, especially what Arizona did. Just makes me ill. Can you see this meme that you were laughing about? I have it up on my screen here. You don't want to show it? What? Okay, well, that's why it's up there. Someone on Twitter sent this to me. I didn't see it go by at first, but thankfully I saw Rich laughing about it later on, and so I was able to find it. There it is. Who would win an entire legion of false and unbiblical religions, teachings, worldviews, and philosophies, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Open Theism, Atheism, Queer Theology, Pelagianism, Critical Race Theory, Modalism, Federal Vision, and Unitarianism versus one grumpy Gramps with a Greek New Testament? Now the funny thing is, that particular picture of me, I'm not sure if people recognize where that came from, but that's from the Greg Strawbridge debate in Florida. And so I'm actually debating a Presbyterian and have that look on my face at that particular point in time. What? Yes, I did notice they did not include that on the list. That's probably good. I wouldn't want to throw my Presbyterian brothers under the bus there. Speaking of which, though, I'm not sure if any of you saw this, but there was a report in the Christian Post about studies from Trinity College and the Peer Research Center that had found there are at least 1.5 million witches in the United States. That would put them 100,000 over the 1.4 million mainline Presbyterians in the country. I couldn't help but thinking, who exactly are they counting? And so I did a little looking around, and they're pretty much just talking about the PCUSA. But the PCUSA would be called one of the mainlines. Where did it even come from? Mainline means dying as fast as possible today, in essence. But when you look up the numbers for the PCUSA, while they have you know, 1.4 million members that worship, or actual attendance is less than 600,000. So, you know, it's sort of like the same situation you have with Southern Baptists, you know. We've got the largest membership of any Protestant denomination, but we can only find about a third of our members in any one given Sunday, which is the reality, obviously, in that case. So I was looking up, you know, well do they include the PCA? And the answer was no, that would not include the PCA. And the PCA I think had what, 340,000, something like that. And an OPC messing with all the numbers there at 31,000. And I've often said that Reformed Baptists and OPC are most alike, and that's probably one of the ways that we are most alike. So even if you threw the PCA and OPC in there, it really wouldn't make any difference. The reality, of course, it's just a number, I realize that, but paganism is making a comeback, because the secular worldview is, is, always has been, always will be, as long as man has created the image of God, the secular worldview is going to be deeply unsatisfying and stultifying to human flourishing, if we borrow the phrase from a famous person. And so, when you see Materialistic worldviews predominating these types of pagan mystical type religions are going to benefit from that because mankind is not going to continue. By the way, phones are open at 877-753-3341. I put that on the tweet that I put out. and 877-753-3341. So we're going to open the phones. We already have one caller waiting, but we want to want to invite you to participate in the program today. The point of that article was not just to find out how many Presbyterians are still left. There aren't a whole lot in that sense as far as Orthodox ones. Calvin would not own many of those Presbyterians by any stretch of the imagination. But also just simply to point out the rapid degradation religiously in the United States, something certainly we have seen happening for a long period of time, but it seems to be accelerating a good bit. And I know that when I compare that together with looking at some of the people that were elected to public office, and given, I'll be perfectly honest with you, Deep cynicism now regarding even the accuracy of the vote counts that we get. I'm sorry, I'm skeptical, very skeptical. You put all that together and you look at some of the people who are now going to be having a direct impact upon our governmental procedures in regards to abortion and marriage and sexuality and things like that. And when people say, God bless America, we just simply have to once again specifically ask, upon what basis? Upon what basis? Blessing? What kind of blessing? How can a Christian pray for the material blessing of a nation that is just so adamantly opposed to his ways and his truth? It's stunning. It really, really is stunning. And so, I can go back. The archives exist. Probably still exist on magnetic tape, because that's what we were using back there. and document that on September 12, 2001, we did a program where we talked about God bless America with repentance, and that has not changed since 2001. The need has only, I think, grown ever deeper. And that's, I think, what we're looking at today as well. So, yeah, more Wiccans than Presbyterians. Edwards and the others back then, I don't think they – well, maybe some of them saw it coming. They saw the rise of universalism and Unitarianism and things like that. You know, maybe they saw the danger of it. I don't know. But that's what we face today. 877-753-3341. 877-753-3341 is the phone number. And so we are going to start taking your phone calls. You remember that, yes, Algo is in channel, so he remembers that particular one. Let's talk with Lauren. Hi, Lauren. Hi there, Dr. White. God bless you and Rich. My husband and I love your ministry and are very, very blessed by it. Well, thank you. Okay, sir. My question is, apologetically, with all the wackiness with marriage these days, I don't have a real good answer, or I don't have an answer at all, frankly, for anybody that would ask me, say, about a man after God's own heart, about great King David and all of his wives, and that, you know, he was basically living in sin, because we know that one man and one woman, with Adam and Eve. How would I explain to someone, because I really don't have an answer and I know it's a different covenant, about David living in sin with all of his wives, and maybe bring it over to the New Covenant today? Well, I don't know that I would accuse him of living in sin. God gave him those wives and those concubines. Obviously, we see with Solomon what happened as a result of that, but that doesn't change the fact that they were living in a time period where the intentions that God had given originally were not being observed within the society. And so, even within the covenant community. And so, we can recognize, especially you look at the really dark times of the judges, and they're coming out of that extremely dark time. It's interesting to note, for example, that the revival that takes place under Josiah when the law is even discovered. There hasn't even been a regular reading of the law and a knowledge of the law for a great deal of time, and so there's a lot of darkness. And so, you know, we assume that everyone was running around with their own copy of the scriptures that had been written to that particular time, but that wasn't the case, and it's plainly not the case. And so, we can recognize the tremendous pain and difficulty that polygamy brought into David's life. You look at what happens with Absalom and all the related things like that. You can definitely see that this is not what was intended, but you can also see that earlier in the judges. You can see that later. And the reality is that what we see in the New Covenant in regards to Jesus' teaching in Matthew chapter 19, that's the clearest revelation that has been given. And so, if someone wants to bring up David, I simply have to say, are you trying to make David the ultimate example? You know, when people use, you know, man after God's own heart, you gotta remember Uriah and all sorts of things like that. Evidently, being a man after God's own heart means an individual who is able to repent of one's sins, not be a moral paragon of virtue. And so if someone were to bring up that type of thing to me, I would just basically say, well, your presuppositions are in error. We don't turn David or any of the, even any of the patriarchs into some kind of standard for us today. We recognize that they had a limited revelation in their day. We have a significantly higher revelation available to us today than they had in their day, and therefore we will be judged by what light we have, they will be judged by the light that they had. And it is a danger when people read the Bible and as long as a story's told, they assume that that somehow communicates some It happens that apologetically the people say well look at this terrible story that happens in judges and that must mean that this is teaching us some kind of lesson well. Not necessarily. Sometimes it's just simply telling us how dark and difficult times were in the past and how God continued to work with his people in spite of all that. So, we have to be very, very careful along those lines to not allow certain presuppositions and assumptions to be made. What you see is you go, well, look at what resulted from this. You've got Uriah, you've got what happens with Solomon, you have what happens with Absalom. All of these things flow out of this living on a lower plane that we can certainly see now in hindsight, we can certainly see in light of Jesus' teaching. But what does that have to do with us today? I mean, we have a clarity of teaching on this subject. And if you're going to make the argument that, well, Jesus didn't really teach that, then you need to go to Matthew 19, you need to go to Matthew 5, you need to go to those texts that are actually specifically relevant and point out that there really aren't any counter arguments. But you can't say that God, I mean, the scriptures specifically say God gave him these things as king and they were a sign of his royal power and so on and so forth. But they're also, especially once you get Solomon, a fulfillment of the warning. Hey, you want a king? You want to be like the nations around you? Here's what's going to happen, because this is what happens when you concentrate power in a particular individual. You're going to get those individuals who use that power in a particular way, and that's exactly what Solomon did. what did take place. So that's how I would respond if someone tried to raise that. It's presuppositionally a flawed argument. And once you get those presuppositions exposed, you can go from there. That is a wonderful answer and so clear. And you just opened up my mind. My mind just opened up. I should have had a V8, of course. That makes all the sense in the world. They still make V8, but I'm afraid that particular commercial is dating both of us a good bit. Yeah, you bet. Who was that? Dr. White. Okay, thank you. Thank you, sir. Have a great day. All right. God bless. Bye-bye. I was talking to... Who was I talking to? Where was I? Somewhere. I was... This past week. and I was talking to some young folks and Who was it? Oh Yes. Yeah, that's right. I was taught I was talking to a I'll just call her sister see Because I don't want to get in trouble or someone to track her down and say hey don't listen to that guy. I told you But I Sat down next to a Mormon missionary at the gate with my delayed flight. I had a lot of delayed flights. This trip was just one delayed flight after another one. And they'll have to admit, you know, with the apps that you've got on your phones is like that. It's it's easier to deal with those things. And, you know, your app warns you, hey, your flight's been delayed and I can make a connection. You want to rebook and you can do it all right there. You don't have to sit there on the phone calling people. It's gotten a little bit better. But anyway. But I sit down, and right as I sit down, I realize that one seat over from me, there's an empty seat between us, is a Mormon missionary. And I'm sitting there going, okay, so there's a Mormon missionary over there, and while I'm formulating a plan, she starts the conversation. And it was like a 90-minute talk, and it was really good, it was really nice. But at one point I said, yeah, I don't want to have to do the OJ Simpson thing through the airport. And she just looked blankly at me. Because she had no idea who OJ Simpson was or what he did in an airport. And I was once again reminded of just how very old I actually am. And how some of the best illustrations just don't work anymore. They just, they just, they do not work anymore. So yeah, there you go. I lost a call. I guess they couldn't hang on. Sorry about that. So, let's talk to, I guess this is Jibril. Hello, Jibril. Hello. Yes, sir. So, I was going through John chapter 5 with a few Jehovah's Witnesses on my college campus, witnessing them. As you have pointed out many times, it's a text we often look over in terms of the deity of Christ. But I was looking a little closer at verse 19, and I was wondering, how should we consider Jesus' words, whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does, in light of the distinction between their roles? So as to avoid modalism. For instance, you know, the Son died on the cross, but the Father didn't. That's one thing that Jesus didn't, the Father did do. So, how do we understand his words, these things? I'm not sure exactly what he's referring to. Yeah. So, we're looking at John chapter 5, verse 19, and once again, this is immediately after the note from John. For this reason, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only loosing or breaking the Sabbath, but he was also referring to God as his own father, making himself equal with God. And so, what comes afterwards is an explanation of what it is that Jesus means when he refers to God as his own father in a specific fashion. and that this then results in his being equal with God, not to be identified as the Father, but equal with God. And so, verse 19 is the beginning of that. Therefore, Jesus answered and was saying to them, truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is not able to do anything off hao tu, Um, that is by himself, separate from the father, uh, unless it is something he sees the father doing, uh, for whatever, uh, for whatever that one, and most translations will put the word father in there because it gets somewhat confusing. in the English language, it's not confusing in the Greek language because the terms have case, gender, and number. For whatever that one is doing, these things also the son does in like manner or is doing the same things in the same way. And so the question is, does this in some way, how does this impact the relationship of father and son Evidently, based upon the assumption that for whatever the father does, these things, the son also doesn't like manner means that there has to be some kind of an identity between the actions of the father and the son, whereas we recognize it's the son who's been made flesh. It wasn't the father who's made flesh. It's the son who redeems the father, decrees the redemption and acts as judge on the basis of the finished work of the son, the father and the son send the spirit, who then comforts the people, so on and so forth. But I think the error in that assumption is that it's Jesus' intention to, in any way, say, the Father has done everything that I have done. He's talking about divine works, and he's also going to say, for example, all the words that I speak, these come from the Father. Well, does that mean that the Father in Heaven speaks to the disciples, hey, Peter, you forgot your rucksack or something like that? No, of course not. That's not what's being referred to. What's going to be referred to all the way through John 5, especially with the use of that term homoios, is the unity that exists between the Father and the Son in accomplishing the will of God. And so, the concern that is addressed in verses 19 and following is, yes, by his language, Jesus is making himself equal with God the Father, but that does not mean he is some renegade deity seeking worship apart from the Father. Instead, he has been sent to accomplish what the Father sent him to do, to say and to do and to teach. And so, the point of the unity is that Jesus is doing exactly what His Father has determined for Him, not that the Father has done everything the Son has done. There is one divine will. and the son is accomplishing that divine will in union with the father, and that's what it's referring to when it says what I've seen the father doing or what I've heard the father saying, the words that I speak come from the father. There is this perfect unity between the father and the son so that all the son is doing can in no way ever detract from or distract from the one proper worship of God. It does not mean that they're doing the same thing in the same way. None of the disciples would have even thought of interpreting those words in that way because they recognize it's not the father who's speaking to them, it's the son who's speaking to them. And so, the father isn't incarnate on the planet, it's not the father who's become flesh. And remember, John has provided us with the interpretational framework that we're supposed to be using as we read through John in the Gospel of John in the Prologue. And so, we've already been told that it's the Logos that took on flesh and dwelt among us, not the Father. He's been distinguished from the Father. In John 118, the end of that interpretive grid that is given to us, no one has seen God, the Father, at any time. the unique God who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known. And so, no confusion is given, none of the disciples would have even thought of that interpretation, the idea that, well, that means that everything Jesus does or says is something the Father has already done or said in an incarnate state someplace. No, but there is perfect unity and harmony between the Father and the Son in what the Son is teaching, in what the Son is doing, and this is a plan that was conceived within the Godhead before time itself began. And so, that's going to be fleshed out more as you go along, because it says, for the Father loves the Son and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing, and the Father will show Him greater works than these that you will marvel. perfection in the revelation that the Son brings of the Father that no one else could ever give us of the Father and the Father's love and the Father's heart. That again takes us back to John 118, the closeness that exists, the one who's at the Father's side. The Father loves the Son. These are the same themes that are being worked out once again. And so, for just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he wishes. So, when you look at the raising of Lazarus, is that Jesus acting in concert with the Father or separately from the Father? No, it's in concert with the Father. And so, that unity is what is being emphasized all the way through. That definitely makes more sense. Do you have time, if I could just ask one more quick question about this text? Uh, okay. Um, some people like to put Jesus' words here, specifically only referring to himself during the Incarnation, or something that could be referring to his pre-Incarnate state, or how would you refer to that? Is this something we could say this is only for Jesus, referring to Jesus himself in his Incarnate state, or can we refer to him at all times, even pre-Incarnation? That's interesting. I would, that is relevant to the controversy that erupted a couple of years ago during the summer in the concept of the eternal subordination of the sun, given that every bit of the context here in John 5 is either revelational or is salvific, messianic, It's all relevant to the sun in the incarnate state. It would be, I think, a danger to extract from this context of conflict with the Jews and Jesus' revelation of the Father as his own Father in a unique sense, extracting that back before creation, I think, could be problematic and might lead to, well, some of the things that we've seen. There's always a rationalistic bent toward forms of subordinationism. The unique relationship the divine persons hold toward one another is so outside of our human categories and so subject to our importation of human categories into it that are foreign to it that I think we need to be very, very, very careful at that point as to what we extrapolate backwards and, you know, Some orthodox teachers in the past, I think, have extrapolated a few things a little bit too far, but especially on something like this, I personally would be rather concerned about trying to take this in light of its context and read it into the eternal state without more basis upon which to do so. Okay, thank you. That's very helpful. Okay. All righty. Thank you very much, sir. God bless. God bless. Bye-bye. All right, 877-753-3341, 877-753-3341 is the phone number. Let's talk to Jeff, I think, up in, is it cold? Are you up in New Hampshire, Jeff? Yes, sir. Is it cold up there yet? Uh, it's a balmy 36 degrees right now. Well, a couple inches of snow and ice on the ground. Well, there you go. There you go. So you might, you might, you might end up with a white Christmas or a white or maybe a white Thanksgiving. That's that's possible too. I lived in Arizona for about 18 months and it snowed. in the part of Sierra Vista I was in for the first time in like 70 years. Well, there you go. I brought it with me when I was down there, but don't worry, I took it away. I remember, uh, I remember, is there, is there a granite mountain up there? Oh, it's the Granite State. So it's called the Granite State. Yeah. I, I just remember a trip with my, my family long ago when I was a kid up to, uh, um, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, uh, drove through Massachusetts. Oh, you went to the Old Man in the Mountain. I was on Cannon Mountain. Yeah, that's possible. That's possible. Yeah. Yeah, I just I just remember this was long before GPS and I just remember that was on that trip that my my mom my dad got into an argument in the front seat of the car as to where we're supposed to be going and and It got heated enough that my mom said we're supposed to be right here and she she popped her finger on the map and it went straight through. And it took out the spot we needed to see as to which turn we were supposed to take. And it's just a reminder of how things have changed over the past... I'm coming up on turning 56 next month. So things have changed a little bit since then. But anyways, I do remember it being a beautiful state because I think we went up there during the changing of the leaves and it was pretty. The best state in the union and everybody's welcome as long as they leave their ideas wherever they came from. Yeah, that's the problem. We, unfortunately, have been sucking in so many of the refugees from California that we've become an insane state ourselves. So that's not a good thing. What can I do for you? Well, I just I wanted to just encourage your other listeners to maybe if they're thinking of a New Year's resolution to look up your old your old write-up on your 100-memory verse challenge. Well, the way you describe how you ought to learn the verses is really great. It doesn't involve any apps, you know, so it's still good, and reading the written word and knowing where to find it is critical, and the context that you provide for a lot of the verses was immediately helpful right after I started, when I had an encounter with a Jehovah's Witness. We have more of those up here than we do Mormons, so I had substituted some verses, and your one-two punch of Psalm 102, verses 25 through 27, related to Hebrews chapter 1, 8, and 10, was immediately helpful, as well as John chapter 12, referring to Isaiah's vision, and chapter 6. This lady was absolutely floored when she, you know, I didn't steamroller actually watching your interactions with, with, uh, cultists, um, has been so helpful in understanding, um, like what, what it is they believe, uh, trying to demonstrate compassion and not steamroll them or, or, uh, proof text them to death. Um, but let them, uh, kind of, kind of get into the, into the mix, like they're helping you out and then, And then when I asked her simple questions like, can you please show me where Jesus is created? She was searching for the verse. She didn't have them memorized, and I did. So I had her verses memorized, and I said, are you looking for Colossians chapter 1, verse 15? And then I told her what it was, and I even pointed out that her translation, the New World Translation, added the word other in there when they're talking about all things created by God. by Christ. So I just wanted to encourage people to go ahead and go back to that, and if you, you know, your advice on that is just really helpful, and it's been an excellent way to memorize verses. Yeah, yeah, there's no two ways about it. And actually, I think, for me anyways, it is a little bit easier to memorize a text of Scripture when, A, you know its context, and B, you know what it may end up how you may end up using it. I just know that in my mind, if I know that this is information I may end up needing while on a street corner with 10 more missionaries around me or in someone's home with Jehovah's Witnesses or whatever, it just sticks better. I don't know why it just sticks better. I can still remember all sorts of dead Muslim leaders names. But like I said, I go to target. I can't remember what in the world I'm supposed to get. So it's just, it's just, you know, that's how I work. And I think there's some others that, you know, have that as well. What he's referring to, of course, are the hundred verse memory systems that I wrote up. Well, I remember I did the I did the what? What do you? Look at Twitter. There's nothing on Twitter. I wrote up, I remember writing the 100 verse memorization system in our teeny tiny office, our two room office on North 16th Street. And I remember the most advanced pieces of equipment we had back then. I wrote that on a compact, quote-unquote, compact portable. And we had one copy machine. That's all we had at that time. That was it. It was a long, long time ago. But you know what? God's truth doesn't change. So I'm glad you found that to be useful. And people can find all that if they just look up 100 verse. at AOMin.org in the search box and it should pop it right up. It's not on my Twitter screen, sorry about that. Well, I'm being told, though it's not showing up on my feed, that the link is on Twitter, so folks can find that if it shows up on yours and doesn't show up on mine. Anyways, Jeff, I appreciate it up there in New Hampshire, and keep talking to those folks, because you're their best hope. Well, thank you very much. All right. God bless. Bye bye. All right. Uh, let's talk to, um, hmm. Okay. Uh, Caleb. Hi, Caleb. Hi, Dr. White. How are you doing today? Doing good. All right. We met at the, uh, on the Germany trip last year at Sovereign Tours. Um, I'm the bearded guy that sat in the back of the bus. It's a privilege to talk to you again. Okay. All right, so I recently got a book, Two Thousand Generations, by Douglas Wilson. It's basically a case for infant baptism. I'm really used to the pretty bad arguments for infant baptism. I think he came out a lot stronger than some of the debates I've heard you have. I was kind of interested for your comment on Jeremiah 32, I thought by far your strongest argument was from Hebrews 8, as far as the nature of the New Covenant, Christ always being the mediator, and the citation there from Jeremiah 31. But in Jeremiah 32, I'm looking at it, and in verse 38 it says, "...and they shall be my people, I will be their God, and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me always, in their own good, and for the good of their children after them." For their own good, excuse me. and I will make an everlasting covenant with them." And that seems to be the follow-up to Jeremiah 31, and the argument that I found difficult to rebut would be Acts 2.39. This sounds like Acts 2.39 language to me, that this would be for them and their children, this new covenant, and I was curious as to your comment on that. Well, as soon as you connect it to Acts 2, that pretty much ends it, as far as I can see. Because, yes, there's no question this continues the New Covenant language, but who are your children in the New Covenant? What was Jesus' own teaching? His gospel divides families. And when you look at the application that Peter makes in Acts chapter 2, and I suppose we should pop over there to that, very, very important to listen to everything that is said. Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off what? As many as the Lord our God will call to himself. And so, the New Covenant interpretation by the apostles themselves, if this is utilizing similar language, As I've pointed out in discussing this, I don't remember if it was in the Reformed Baptist book on the New Covenant and these issues, where I had a two-part chapter in it where I had responded to another one of my dear Presbyterian brothers on this particular subject. At some point, I remember in one of those articles or one of those chapters, I lose track of it after a while, the important thing to recognize here is that what's happening here is the Jews are under conviction for being a part of putting to death the Messiah. And when Peter says, the promise is for you and your children, Sometimes my Presbyterian brothers stop right there and go, see? There it is. It's us and our children. Well, first of all, in context, the command is, repent and be baptized each one of you. And so, repentance and baptism cannot be separated from one another, and so you end up with all these strange ideas about infantile faith or infantile repentance or whatever else it might be. In this context, the whole discussion is about repentance and baptism, and there's nothing here about infant baptism taking place, I can't believe that anyone would actually make a serious argument that at this point in time that infant baptism was taking place. I mean, just from a church history perspective, let alone an exegetical perspective. So, you've got the immediate context, but very often they'll go for the promises of you and your children. Stop! You can't stop there. It is so very, very clear for your children and for all the ones who are far off. Well, who is Macron? The term Macron is used by Paul, for example, in talking about the Gentiles. And so, what he's saying is not this continuation of a sign of the covenant type concept from one generation to the next generation circumcision. This is Jews and Gentiles. This is the fact that God is going to, by His grace, call people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. That's the emphasis. It worries me when what is being said is missing the fact that, yes, even though you Jews have rejected your Messiah, the message is still for you. But you need to realize the message is for all people, including those who are far off, as many as our God will call to himself. The overarching thing that should catch our attention here is the electing grace of God. That's what's going on here, is you have election, and you tie that together with what you end up with in Romans 9, for example, and the fact that God has always acted in this electing fashion, even dividing families, Jacob and Esau, a very clear example of this. God's going to accomplish his purposes in election. That's what's going on here, and when it says you and your children, that is Jewish people, and in many who are as far off, Gentiles. Has nothing to do with baptism, and in fact, if you're going to argue baptism from this passage, you have to connect it immediately with repentance. Repentance is absolutely the prerequisite. And so, that would preclude, I would hope all of us would agree, who are Reformed, the exercise of repentance on the part of a nursing infant, or something like that. Repentance has a particular meaning. And it's interesting, you said you've listened to some of the debates. The two major debates, one was with a Presbyterian who doesn't believe in paedo-communion, and one with one who does. And that did change some of the essence of the argumentation. And I would say, in somewhat of a disconcerting fashion, once you get to the paedo-communionist, who is at least trying to be consistent, but where that ends up leading, I think can become very concerning, because now the whole relationship between Christian baptism and repentance and faith becomes highly questionable. at that particular point in time. So, yeah, the apostolic interpretation using that language definitely promises for you and your children and for all who, far off Gentiles, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself. And so, If you've seen, uh, Pierre, Pierre, Pierre, uh, I'd have to look it up. I've forgotten the full name of the book on infant baptism by Pierre something or somebody Pierre. I don't remember. Anyways, he ends up arguing that the children of Christians have a different spiritual state than what? Yes, Pierre Marcel. Thank you. Google to the rescue, Rich looked it up. If you've seen Pierre Marcel's book, he actually ends up arguing that children of Christians have a different spiritual nature, that in essence, their relationship to their covenant parents sort of, in some way, removes total depravity. And I'm just sort of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, where did that come from? That's one direction down there. Once you start going that way, there's all sorts of different understandings. It's not a monolithic thing on the other side as to how those things are understood. Have you seen the debate I did with Doug on Roman Catholics? Oh, I certainly have. It's one of my favorites. You both of you. I look up to very much. Yeah. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Well, look, I love Doug Wilson. I think he's a great guy. We should probably have some more debates in the future. He's brilliant. He's probably the best wordsmith alive today, but doesn't. change the fact that each one of us is, has to check out for our traditions. And so, you know, there you go. So there's so much stuff that I agree with Doug Wilson on, that it does sort of throw into rather sharp relief the issues where we don't. One thing is plainly obvious, though, beyond all dispute and debate, and that is Doug Wilson should never wear a Coogee sweater. Oh, no question about that. He could not, he could not pull it off. I'm sorry. He could not pull it off. Now, did you, my daughter showed me some video where he lit a, um, a couch on fire recently. Did you see that? Oh, certainly. Yeah. His, uh, no quarter November. Yeah. No quarter November. About all the blogs he's doing this this month. Yeah. Yeah. But he, but he, that wasn't photoshopped. He, he lit it. I'm aware. He lit it on fire and the fire was underneath him. Okay? Oh, really? Okay, just look, just watch. You'll see the under part of the couch that he is sitting on. The fire spread that far before he got up and walked out of that frame. And I was just like, okay, I'll wear the coogies, you sit on the burning couches, and we'll just let it go. Okay? For sure. All right. Go ahead. Thank you, sir. Go ahead, because we're going to run over time anyway, so. Oh, okay, I'm sorry. I just wanted to bring it back to Jeremiah 32, just not a follow-up question, but just a clarification. In the promise of the New Covenant, that promise of God's faithfulness to the children, we could then assume, based on what you've already told me, that that somewhat grown children that have demonstrated No, look, look, we, I do not, I'm very, very concerned when we take these promises of God's faithfulness and if we turn them into something that is connected to families, family specifically, not the continuation of the faith and Timothy being the child of Paul or something like that, so in other words, defining those within the work of the Spirit in forming the church, when we connect that to specific family units, don't, haven't we seen in the Old Covenant how many times that broke down? And are we saying in the New Covenant that's somehow going to change? Because the only way that could change in the New Covenant is if you accept the idea that all of your children are going to be regenerated. And it's a sad, sad reality that there really isn't a promise that that's going to happen. No question. That to me has led to a lot of broken hearts and a lot of thoughts that their promises had been broken. I think that the relationships that exist within the church is what is referring to there. The continuing generation down through the church, not the genetic relationship any longer. I think it's a spiritual one, not one connected. Land promises and all the rest of that kind of stuff that limited things to the nation of Israel. Anyways, thanks Caleb, I appreciate it, and don't light up any couches you're sitting on, okay? No sir, I don't plan to. Sir, you're a gift to the church, I thank you so much for your ministry, it's impacted me and my church deeply. God bless you, sir. Thanks Caleb, God bless. Stay faithful out there. Alrighty. Alright, thank you. Alright, let's get to Adam real quick and wrap things up. Adam in Minnesota, the land of 10,000 lakes and 100 billion mosquitoes during July. Well, thank you for taking my call, Dr. White. Can you tell that I am actually, did you know that I am a Minnesota native? I did know that. When I found out, I was pretty excited. It's on your Wikipedia page. Yeah. Oh, it is? Well, I don't, I have no idea what's on my Wikipedia page and I'm afraid to look at what is that on my Wikipedia. Because it's not anything too bad, but it's been a while since I checked. Yeah. Anyway. So, my question, you've mentioned several times throughout your podcast that God is going to hold people accountable for what they do, which is obvious, and you've also used that in referring to believers. Recently, a couple weeks ago, you mentioned that you don't think it's going to be like someone's life broadcasted on a big screen for all to see. Yeah, the jack chick, this was your life thing. Yeah, yeah. And so I was curious what exactly you think that's going to be like, because I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around how God holds us accountable for what Christ has paid the penalty for. And like, where do we draw the line with that? Well, okay, it's not it's not that this could be a review of every every sin, great or small, but the fact is we have been given well, the parable of the talents. We have been given gifts by God, and there is a reckoning in regards to what we've done with those gifts. Now, the nature of that, is it something that's a... I would guess that You see, we have the idea of any concept of judgment is primarily a process over time where observation, you know, that's where the idea of the big screen comes up. You know, everyone gets to observe and you get to be embarrassed and and then, you know, finally forgiven at the end or something. We don't know. We pretend to know and we write books about knowing but we really don't know a lot about the nature of consciousness and experience after death in regards to time, how we gain knowledge, will we gain knowledge in the same way we gain knowledge now, or can there be an immediate impartation of knowledge? What about our experience of time? You know, we just don't know, and I don't know that our current state allows us in our language to really wrap ourselves around what all of that is going to involve. But there is, if there is a demonstration of something, if there is a revelation of something, it is going to be primarily the righteousness and justice of God and His glorification, not so much a extended focus upon how much God gave you and you did nothing with. It could simply be a very, it could be as simple or as deep as the Savior drawing near to each one of His elect, imparting immediate knowledge of what all of His purposes were, so that we recognize him for who he is, see ourselves in a way that we never saw ourselves, we are disabused of all the self-deceptions we had ever had, we all of a sudden recognize all the purposes that we didn't understand, all the hurts that we had, we immediately see what their reasons were. I don't know what that would be like I don't know that it has to be instantaneous. Like I said, I don't know about the passage of time. But you would think that whatever it would involve, it would involve for us a fundamental breaking down of every last bit of resistance to the divine will, every last bit of ignorance, tradition, anything that is opposed to that divine will, and that it would be done for his elect people all in the context of loving adoration. And that's why I say in this life, I don't know that we can even begin to. to get a picture of it or even try to imagine it. But when we talk about judgment, we tend to import the human aspect of that, the temporal aspect of it, the fact that any judgment that we see in this life is always imperfect. So often it doesn't even approach the standard that the law itself is set, human law, let alone divine law. And so, all of that, I think, colors our perception of this. But, you know, 1 Corinthians 3, there is a testing of the motives of the heart, and there is a judgment that takes place there. But those who are in Christ and are experiencing this judgment, saved and yet there is a aspect of this fire that is this that was you know, that Has nothing to do with purgatory. That's that's obvious but what it does have to but but Because it doesn't have anything to do with purgatory. We tend to sort of like man it you know, will there be a level of Love in raptured suffering when we recognize How often we chose to walk alone, how often we did not utilize the resources that the spirit offered to us, how often we hurt others by our attitude, I don't know. But there's some type of judgment and there's some type of change that takes place as a result. And certainly, what is demonstrated to the watching universe, if you can describe it in that way, is that what God accomplished, what God did, was made of gold, silver, and precious stones, and what we did was wood, hay, and stone. I think it sounds like you're under attack by a dishwasher. Not quite, but pretty much. The only way I could describe that. So, that's the best way I could describe it, Adam. Awesome. No, that adds a lot of clarity to that. Thank you. Okay, thanks a lot. God bless. Stay warm up there. You too, I will. Alright, bye-bye. Alright, good questions as always. I do... I suppose I should just credit uh... the call screener with the quality of the the calls that come through he says that we would not believe how many he tosses seriously how many how many today five five people okay so i'm gonna amend everything i was saying you will not believe the nastiness of our call screen So to all of you who are mad right now because you didn't get on, it's Rich's fault. It has nothing to do with me. I wanted simply to say that we have the best audience in the world, but I can't say it thanks to Rich. So address all hate mail to Rich Pierce. He gets it anyways. He gets all the hate mail anyhow. So that's just sort of how it works. So there you go. All right, so we will be back on Wednesday. And then we're going to interrupt everyone's Black Friday sales. We're actually going to go... Does anyone really go... Who would want to do that anymore? But anyways, we'll be back on Black Friday as well, whatever that is supposed to mean these days. So, three programs this week to make up impendence for last week. So, thanks for listening to the program today. We'll see you on Wednesday. God bless.