We're going to be talking about a bunch of different subjects, and I'm going to tell you ahead of time that there are certain... I'm going to be dealing with all these subjects, some of which are, frankly, a bit uncomfortable for me to deal with. But I think I need to anyway. And because some of them are a bit uncomfortable, I'm actually going to not allow for questions. during certain parts of this, and I'm just going to invite you to ask the questions to me or my wife or both of us later if you have questions. I think you may, and I think you need to ask the questions, and I think you don't let them go undealt with, which I'm going to explain. But in certain cases with this first subject, where I'm going to, which is biblical sexuality, I just would be more comfortable not. So it's kind of like this. There are certain questions that I'm probably fine with answering, but there are other ones that I'm just personally uncomfortable with answering in a mixed group, and I'm not sure that your level of questions, your questions are going to match my level of comfortability, if that makes sense. So I think the best way to do it is there'll be points in which I'll say, okay, do you have any questions? And at those points, you'll be free to be able to ask whatever questions you want. And when we get into other things, we're going to talk about other things as well, and then you'll be able to be freely asked questions. That said, Elizabeth and I are available to answer any questions you have later on in a different setting when it comes to this subject. Alright, these are the subjects we're going to be looking at tonight. There are four major issues. We probably won't look at all of them. You're funny, Josh. And we won't look at all of them tonight. Biblical sexuality in marriage, the blessing of children in marriage, including birth control, thinking through infertility in marriage, and forgiveness in marriage. So, you know, all of these are lightweight subjects that nobody has any opinions on. They are things that I will just tell you in counseling and experience and life and everything else. These are such areas that have such bearing on the health of the marriage that I can't just move on to parenting before I cover these, frankly. I actually just sort of had to think through, okay, well, what are some areas that we need to cover that I haven't really covered? marriage yet, and unfortunately they're all the stuff that I'm not as comfortable with, basically, which is why I would just, you know, almost involuntarily not include them, but I do need, I do feel the need to. Also, of course, this is not going to be a direct exposition of Scripture, which means you're going to hear some of my own opinions about things. You're going to have to discern to some degree what is, I'll tell you when it's directly scriptural, And I always try, as we go through these kind of things, to point out when it's my opinion and when it's scriptural. I try to do my best to do that. But understand, my opinions are going to be mixed in with some of this. This is not, by definition, a sermon, frankly. This is sort of like, let's have a talk about some things that I think are absolutely necessary in marriage. And so, I think we need to understand that as well. Where is my wife, by the way, speaking of marriage? There you are, okay. Anyway, I did want her to make, I wanted to make sure she was in here tonight because if there are questions later on that she's asked or the two of us are asked, I wanted her to make sure she was here to hear what I originally said. Anyway, alright, so we're going to begin by dealing with the issue of biblical sexuality. We'll get the hardest one out of the way first. And we're going to just, we're not going to cover everything, of course, about this. And I will tell you that it's going to be fine that teens are here. because I'm not going to get into details that would be not appropriate for teenagers. So I'll just let you know that ahead of time. And of course, it's probably the most appropriate setting for teenagers to hear something like this. Why? Because in most cases, you're with your parents. That's exactly the most ideal. And so that's good. Alright, there are three biblical purposes for sex. Marriage, marital sex, there are no biblical purposes for non-marital sex because it shouldn't happen. So biblical purpose for sex, number one, is a healthy expression of intimate union. And we find this in Genesis 2.21, it says, and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh. Now that verse does not mean only, it's not only talking about the physical relationship, it's actually talking about the spiritual relationship as well, and even the emotional relationship when it says one flesh. But certainly it does, one flesh does mean coming together as one. And so it is intended to be an expression of intimate union, one with another within marriage, which is why it should only be marriage. That's important to understand. In 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verse 5 it says, do not deprive one another except with consent for a time. Why? That you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. What this verse tells us is that it is a normal thing within the marriage relationship it should be normal for you to be physically coming together. And it's important for us to understand that. It says that you really shouldn't withhold except for if you are in a time of prayer and fasting, where you are really so devoted to focusing on the Lord that you're not really even able to focus on your spouse. that should still be consensual. It says, except with consent for a time. So it's still a consensual thing that you would decide together to spend some time apart physically to focus on the Lord. But it says be careful to come back again together so Satan doesn't tempt you because of your lack of self-control. Now let me I've pointed this out before, but I'm going to point it out again. This is not saying that somebody who is not active physically is like somebody has to be in a relationship where they're physically active, sexually active. It's not what it's saying. It's saying that when you are sexually active in marriage, then there is a self-control issue. So that's important to understand. So this is something where it is a healthy expression of an intimate union. And that is the baseline for what the physical relationship is supposed to be. And we need to understand that that's the case. So it's supposed to be, so if we are spiritually one together, we're emotionally one together, then we have a physical way of expressing that one with each other. in a physical union. That's purpose number one. Purpose number two is procreation. That's very clear biblically, that God blessed them and God said to them, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. My pastor growing up, when he, in his sermon, in his wedding sermon, he usually preached about the same sermon every wedding he did, and he would always start, number one, marriage is for procreation. And it was a little like Wow, this takes us out of any kind of wedding mood. It's like, okay, this is pretty blunt, but he isn't wrong, okay? It's very clear from the very beginning that procreation is a, and certainly, of course, sex is created for that reason, to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. The human race will no longer exist if nobody has sex, frankly. It's just the way it is. Except for other, you know, there are now other ways, I know, like artificial insemination, stuff like that. We'll talk about that, too, believe it or not, unfortunately. But anyway, for now, procreation is something that is clearly the case. Purpose number three is pleasure, okay? And that's important to understand, actually. In fact, I would actually suggest to you that in certain times within Christianity, this has been downplayed so much that even in marriage relationships, people have felt guilty for having pleasure inside that sexual relationship within marriage. And that is very unfortunate. That's not biblical at all. If you read the book of Song of Solomon, you cannot get past the fact that they're having fun, that this is enjoyable. And so Song of Solomon 4, 10 through 11 says, how much better than wine is your love and the scent of your perfumes than all spices your lips, oh my spouse, drip as a honeycomb Honey and milk are under your tongue, and the fragrance of your garments is like the fragrance of Lebanon, and it will continue. You know, it'll say things like, you know, your neck is like the cedars of Lebanon, which I didn't know was a, I mean, it doesn't sound very complimentary, but apparently it was. Your hair is like a flock of goats. I mean, there's a lot of things in Song of Solomon that are like... Anyway, it doesn't seem all that complimentary, but you know, anyway. So, but there is clearly, clearly in the physical relationship within marriage, it is intended to be pleasurable. So, some basic principles. Number one, And I'm not, again, I'm not covering everything about this, but I'll just give you some basic principles. Hebrews chapter 13 verse 4 says, marriage is honorable among all and the bed undefiled. Number one, all marital sex should be three things, private, consensual, and free from guilt. Private, by private I mean it should only be with the two of you and no one else. That means visual, that means mental, that means everything, okay? Number two, it should be anything you do within the marriage bed should be consensual. So there shouldn't be forcing one or the other something on somebody else. So that's number two. The rest of it is you should be free. There should be a sense of freedom. There's no, there should not be guilt. It doesn't need to be guilt. Marriage is honorable among all. It's an honorable thing, and it's talking about the marriage bed there. And so there is no reason to feel guilty. There should be a sense of freedom within the marriage relationship that you have never experienced before, frankly, in any other kind of thing. And so those three principles will guide you as far as what what it is gonna look like. If you have questions again about, okay, well, what about this or what about that? I will answer any, not here. I will answer any question that you have. You come talk to me if you're a man. If you're a woman, you can talk to my wife or talk to both of us. If you're a woman, you might wanna talk to both of us. She might say, I'm gonna have to punt on this one. But anyway, you can certainly ask her. And so, just so that you're aware of that, That is important. Number two, sexual complications are common in Christian marriages. I just, I really want to bring this out. Sexual difficulties should be addressed or they can continue to be more problematic as time goes on. Biblical, outside, I should say outside biblical will help me better, but may not, may be needed and there's no shame in this. So what happens often in Christian, there's a lot of problems that happen in Christian marriages related to this, but there could be a lot of frustrations, a lot of misunderstandings, a lot of really hard things with regard to this issue. And the problem is, this, of all issues, people are the least willing to get outside help for. And that's understandable, actually. But at the same time, if you're going a few years and there are still frustrations and problems and difficulties, then there is need And there's no shame in getting biblical help. I would not recommend getting help from a secular psychiatrist, particularly in this area. They will not give you biblical advice on this, and it could be really harmful, actually. But I've had people come to me and my wife with questions, and I try to make it as not I try to make it as comfortable as possible, and it's not, I don't think people feel that it's weird after they come to me or feel strange or anything. I don't think that's the case. And frankly, just so you know, it's not like, I don't know, I have a really fairly good ability to compartmentalize, so I just, you know, when we're there, we think about that, and we don't think about that later, basically, just so that you're aware of that. But I have seen enough problems that will go on for years, 15, 20 years, in a marriage, and then surface, and then there's just, this is an area that becomes an issue that needs to be dealt with. And sometimes, there's a couple of very simple things, and that's really all it is. Other times, it's more. But just understanding a few things is helpful. This is actually really important, and can really help, this next one. And just to understand that the fruit of the Spirit and Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 13 apply to the marriage bed. So for example, if you think through what love is, love is patient, is kind, vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil. If you think through what love is in 1 Corinthians 13, that applies to the marriage bed. And if you apply that, you know, patience and kindness and those kinds of things in the marriage bed, that alone can help you. Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness. If you think through those, those still apply to the marriage bed. And if you think through those, then just understanding that and you make sure that that's happening there, that can really be a help to you. should be applying everywhere, but for some reason, we're so good at compartmentalizing things that sometimes we go into certain areas of our lives, we say, well, that doesn't really apply anymore. And then we run into problems. So that's something to consider. Number four, you ought to go to the marriage. This will help you a lot. You ought to go to the marriage bed desiring to please the other primarily rather than to get pleased primarily. Scripture says, it is more blessed to give than to receive. That is actually a very important principle. If both people in the marriage relationship will go in to that kind of relationship, and they will desire to please the other and to give to the other, still being able to receive. You need to be able. It's just like receiving a gift. You've got to be able to receive it. Somebody gave me a gift today, which I totally didn't expect. And I wasn't expecting it at all. And I could tell it was a gift. I actually said, how much was this? And they said, I don't know, because I didn't know it was a gift. And they said, I don't know. And I could tell it was a gift. And I'm like, I don't always receive gifts very well. I'm like, I don't know why. It's probably pride or something. And I just need to say thank you. So you have to be able. It's loving to receive. But it's most loving to focus on pleasing the other. And then as a result of that, then oftentimes you actually end up, over time, having more pleasure. just give more and you actually end up receiving more in time. And this one goes along with this. Developing a good physical relationship in marriage takes time and work for long-term results. Now this is very different than what the culture's message is on this. The culture's message is, you know, it ought to be great every time and all this stuff. That's not the reality of this. I mean, it takes work and there's long-term benefits to being patient and kind and all those kinds of things. And if you handle things the right way, actually there's a development in the relationship that occurs in marriage. And part of it is sort of this giving and receiving. In anything in life, the more you give, usually the more you receive, but you usually receive it later than you get it. So this happens to apply in this situation as well, where if you keep giving, and you keep being patient, and you keep being loving over time, then you'll end up receiving. And it takes time. It's something that's cultivated over, really, candidly over years, really. And part of the problem is we're so used to, we get so frustrated because we're so used to instant gratification on everything that it really causes a lot of problems in the marriage relationship in this area. Okay, and I'm done. That's it. Okay, so any more? Now, that may have been enough to provoke questions. And if it did, and if you're struggling in this area, and you're going three, four, five years in a marriage, and you're still having trouble, then you should get help. Because the problem is that a lot of these things don't solve themselves until later on. They don't solve themselves unless you get help. So just understand that. So I don't have any problem if you come to me in an appropriate setting and I'll be glad to answer any questions you have in this area. But I'm glad to move on in a mixed setting. here, and it actually has been the quietest. It has been probably in any Wednesday nights in a while, which is understandable. Okay. Yeah, that's true. Anyway, I'm glad you're following. No, I don't actually. Anyway, so... Actually, I really like this. Maybe we'll... No, anyway. Okay. All right. We're now going to move to the blessing of children. And we're going to begin by just asking the question, what does the Bible say about having children in marriage? Number one, marriage is for making babies. I'm going to make it really obvious. Because the culture is going against this. And I'm just going to start here. Now understand, I'll just say this, that we are going to talk about birth control. We're going to talk about it. And I'm not against birth control with certain guidelines. But just understand that biblically, God intended marriage and childbearing to go together. And I'm going to say this. I think I can open up this now. If you have questions or comments at this point, I'm really okay with that. I may close it down, by the way, again, and say at certain points, okay, now we're going to go down to no questions, please, because we're going to get a little dicey at other points. But right now, I'm probably okay with questions. Yes, Jeff. And then Lisa. But not on the previous subject. You can't ask both of you. Okay. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. That's why we have a number one next to it. Lisa. Yeah. No. Well, no. Because we have other, we have two and three and other things. I wouldn't say that these are necessarily ranked. Yeah. Based upon our previous, based upon, this is, this has to do, remember, this is the question we're asking. What does the Bible say about having children in marriage? That's our question. So now we're answering that question. So we talked about marriage before and talked about that the primary purpose of marriage is to glorify God, to be worshipers together, that the wife is assisting the husband in the husband's role that God has given him and all of that. That's the primary purpose of marriage. And so this is answering this question. Yep. The number? Okay. Number two, the marriage is for making worshipers. I think this is important, an important thing. Deuteronomy 6, 4 through 9 says, Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. And these words I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them as you sit in your house, as you walk by the way, as you lie down, when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your heart and on your gates." And there's really a lot of other passages of scripture that we could go to as well. But when God said, be fruitful and multiply, He wasn't just saying make a bunch of warm bodies. His goal was that you would bear children and that you would train them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Now the gospel is going to have to be, they're going to have to receive the gospel and they're going to have to receive that on their own. But if you train them, there's a higher likelihood that they will receive the gospel. and then if someone who is an adult who isn't raised in a Christian home. And this becomes an important thing. There are implications of this when we get into parents who can't have kids and infertility. How do you deal with that? So kind of keep that in mind that this is a principle that will have further implications. Number three is Children are a heritage and a reward and a blessing, Scripture says. Psalm 127 verse 3 says, So scripture tells us that this is something that is a heritage, it's a reward, and it's a blessing. And the quiver thing is so overused, I didn't even include that verse in my PowerPoint. So we won't, we'll just move on. Yeah. Yeah, you can. Anyway, verse number four. Children are sought after and celebrated. Children are sought after and celebrated. Genesis chapter 33 verse 5 says, and he lifted his eyes and saw the woman and children and said, woe are these with you. So he said, the children whom God has graciously given your servant. So we see that in scripture, they're celebrated. Now I'm going to very briefly, so understand God's perspective on having kids and children and all of that. I want to address something that is, this is one that I'm just going to address. What about somebody that's a couple that deliberately chooses barrenness? In other words, let's say they're not even married, they're going to get married, and they come to someone, they come to me, I was discussing this actually with three pastors, four pastors, and this question came up. Would you marry someone? if they came to you and you're doing prenatal counseling and they said, we are never going to have children, would you marry them? And you know, all of us agreed that we would not do that. Now, it's different if you can't, if there's a physical reason, okay, or a physical reason that maybe you shouldn't, that's understandable. And we're gonna talk about, this is not a birth control question, we're gonna get to that. But to just deliberately say, we're gonna get married, but we're never having kids, on purpose, is actually a very foreign idea in the New Testament, or in Scripture, in the Old Testament, too. It's a foreign idea in Scripture. Marriage and kids just go hand-in-hand. And if it's not a physical reason, we would be hard-pressed, I'd be hard-pressed to hear of a reason that's not selfish. And so I think we need to understand that. Sonia? Fairness is obviously a different phrase. What if there was some kind of a mental thing? Like if one of the parts of the couple maybe had some kind Yeah, sure. That's still physical. So if there's a physical reason, yeah, so if there's a physical reason, then that would be understandable. I'm saying outside a physical reason. Yeah. Yeah, that's, we're going to get to that. Yeah, we're going to get to that. Choosing not to have your own children Actually, we are going to get to that, so I'll answer, I think. If we don't, let me come, we'll circle back around to it, but remind me. Okay. Yeah. Sure. Right, right. Yeah, it all goes together, right? You have a really hard time. It's happening. I'll just let you know. This is a, this is something that is happening where people are coming together, they're saying they want to get married, and they don't want to have kids, and it's not a physical reason. Yeah. Okay, that's, we're gonna get to that. That's the birth control question. Okay. All right. So let's, I think, let's get to the birth control question. So what about birth control? Okay. Boy, we're going through it tonight. All right, I'm getting them all out of the way in one, and hopefully you don't hate me afterwards. Okay. All right, so let's deal with this. And by the way, I just think it's necessary to deal with this. You say, I'm curious, how many of you ever discussed this in church before? Okay, like we got one, two? Part two, okay. I'm not including, I'm saying just in church in general, yeah. Okay, then never mind, okay. And the problem is that premarital counseling is very subjective based upon who's doing it and all of that. And so, anyway, I think it's necessary to go through these things. This is the right kind of a forum I'm comfortable with. I would not be doing this on a Sunday morning during a worship service, but I think that this to me is the right time to do this. All right. Any birth control, here's, start this way. Any birth control that is any way abortive is unethical and immoral. I'll just say it very much up front. It just is, okay? There's no, if it's abortive, it's wrong. And I don't need to go into, you know, there's the morning after pill, there's all kinds of things like that, but it's just, it's immoral. Number two, any birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilized embryo is also wrong, okay? Now, Because once the embryo is fertilized, and if you're preventing implantation, you're essentially aborting. Life begins when? It begins at conception. All right, now there, so just understand that those two things are really wrong. Yes, Jeff? Well, there are different kinds of birth control pills to my understanding. There's even one called a triphasic pill that has three different, and I'm not a, I've got a doctor in the room. He can correct me on any of this. But anyway, so, and there's different ways of, they do different things. One of which I think is prevents implantation. So that becomes questionable in my mind since one of them will. There are other ways. And then you've got, I think, like high estrogen. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but you have other options, I think, that may not include preventing implantations. Is that right? Yeah. Right. Good. OK. you know, I don't need to go into specifics because I'm not qualified to. I'm just simply saying these things are from a biblical ethical perspective. They're not right. And then other methods of birth control are matters of conscience. Okay, so once we've got past those two issues, we're now dealing with matters of conscience. There are going to be some Christians that have conscience issues with certain things and others won't, and we are not getting into details of all what those are. I may use General terms, but I'm not going to get into details. And then number four, the primary consideration. I just want to encourage you this way. The primary consideration is motive. Okay. After you've gotten past these first two things and your conscience is okay with it, then you have to ask yourself the question, okay, what is my motivation? Why am I withholding? So let's talk about the motive then. All right. Let me give you an ungodly example. I did not come up with these myself. I got these from Capital Baptist, who had a series on this, and I pulled their illustrations, just so you're aware. Ungodly example. Kids are a hassle, and our careers are going great. In fact, Jane has a concern about overpopulation. She says, we can go off the pill later. Right now, we want to enjoy money, time, leisure, et cetera. That's an ungodly example. It's just selfishness. Okay, so to go to do it for that reason, because we just like our careers, and we just be concerned about our population. That was interesting. But anyway, all of that, those are selfish reasons. We just like our lives, and we don't want to disrupt them. Well then, you know, really that's something that needs to be considered as a motive that's not really a selfish motive. Because God says children are a blessing, children are a reward, children are our heritage, So we need to understand that. Let's go then to some godly examples. And I'm not saying that each one of these you should or shouldn't do them, but these are some things that I'm just going to say, and maybe godly is the wrong word. Maybe it's just, maybe I should put understandable examples. Some of you are going to go, maybe you're going to go, well, I don't agree with that. Okay. It's okay. We're not going to necessarily agree on every one of these. Just a heads up. We'll just have to agree to disagree. But, and I'm not even sure, I think it depends on the situation, but these are scenarios where it would seem plausible to consider birth control as an option. Number one, and these are not in any order as far as importance. In thinking long term about our overall ministry, it seems wise at this stage to hold off for a specified period of time in order to prepare. Just general preparation, we're preparing for ministry, and we think it's a good idea to hold off. Somebody's going through seminary or something or whatever. Did you have a question, Jeff? Like I said, it depends on the motive. I think that if your motive is just selfish, we're not ready because we like our lives, that might be a problem. If it's, we're not ready because we need to do, I would be asking the question, OK, well, what are you going to do to get ready? Like, what's the plan? I don't know if it's a time frame, but it's, OK, what's the plan to be prepared? And if it's, and there is a sense financially where you're never really financially ready to have kids, honestly. But so you have to be careful with that one. But you could, that could be a consideration. But you want to be careful about it. We are deliberately delaying children for a couple of years in order to pay off debt so my wife can stay home full time. Okay? I'm not saying that wives need to stay home full time. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that if somebody chose to do this, that would make, that would be, it's an unselfish reason. It's sort of like I can devote more time with my kids in order, and pay off debt in order to be in a better position. This is kind of, in order to be a better position to provide for the children that God gives me and be a better steward. for when the time comes. I think that might make sense. God has given us six kids and they are a delight, but we are thinking of using birth control because it's getting harder and harder to provide for them with the care God requires and having trouble feeding them and tuition costs or homeschool costs aren't going to get any lower, I think this is a reasonable thing to consider. And I used six because, I didn't use six, it was already there, and I thought, they're picking out a pretty good sized number. But it really could be any number, frankly. If your thinking is, okay, I really don't, I want to be responsible and good stewards with what God has given me, and I'm not sure that more is better because of that. I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't. That's up to you and the Lord and your spouse and your motives. I'm just saying that that would seem to be a better, that's not just a selfish motive. That's something that may need to be considered, that would be a reasonable consideration, if that makes sense. God has graciously given us two children, but due to significant complications of pregnancy, we feel it is not wise to severely risk my wife's health by having more children. I think that is probably one of the best reasons, frankly, for your wife's health, if that's an issue. That was a significant issue for my mom, I think, in making that decision. She had very, very hard pregnancies. She actually, so they, you know, she permanently, you know, dealt with that. I don't know what's really appropriate to say. Anyway, like, anyway, but she couldn't have any kids because she chose to after my sister. But she did regret it later, just FYI. But at the same time, it was a reasonable, it was something reasonable. because of physical concerns that the decision was made. Those are the scenarios. OK, before we get into infertility, do you have any questions that I might not answer? But if you have them, you can ask them. That's OK. Any questions about any of these? Do they make sense? Yeah, it's Lisa. When you started, did you discuss about, you know, primary needs and poor behavior? You're better off, or you're better together serving the Lord at heart. In essence, what you should be thinking is you're better together and as a family with children serving God. So you should already be thinking of how you're going to serve the Lord with children, like let's say you're missionaries. I think we're getting ahead of the game, actually, on that. I think that before you get married, if that's what we're talking about, when you're trying to determine a spouse that may be the Lord's will for you to marry, you're asking the question, can we serve God better together than apart? In other words, a man has a direction that God's called him a woman is to be a help meat for him, and they're trying to determine if they're a good team to be able to serve the Lord together. I don't necessarily think that you're, I mean, you can certainly factor in whether if children come, Will this be a good thing? You certainly need to factor that in. If a woman says, well, the guy's going to be a terrible father, but I like him as a husband, that doesn't hardly make sense. Okay? All right? All right? I mean, I would be kind of like, what? You know, what? So I don't think we're going to go that far. But there is a possibility that after you get married, you can't have kids. So what do you do then? So I wouldn't think in terms of exclusively, maybe not even primarily, okay, what will our family, what will we be like with children? I think that's, but we're going to assume that we will have children if we can. Does that, to some degree, answer your question? Okay, good. Yes, Miranda. Yes, okay, well, restate your question. Yeah, so They are going to specific they're going to be on birth control they can have children together and presumably, but they are going to choose to indefinitely be on birth control for their marriage in order to adopt. Okay. Sure. So we already have a few kids, and we're going to consider holding off in order to, we're going to consider not having more biological kids in order to have some of ours. Or any, so we don't have any kids. Which is it? Okay. Yeah. Okay, this is going to be my opinion, but I do not see scripturally where you have the idea of indefinite birth control for that reason. Scripturally, marriage and kids go together. If God Now, you could say, well, if the Lord doesn't provide kids for us, then God opens and closes the womb. If God doesn't provide kids for us, then we'll adopt. I would struggle with that. I would not counsel somebody that way. This is my opinion. If you disagree, it's really okay. This is not a gospel issue. But I really struggle with whether that would be a viable option, honestly. However, I would feel more comfortable if they had a few kids and then said, okay, we're going to, but to say we're going to be completely barren and just stay on birth control our whole marriage in order to have it, in order to adopt, again, I think we're still, it's not a selfish thing. That's not the issue. But is it really consistent with God's plan in Scripture. Is that what we see? Do we see any examples of that? And I'm not seeing that as a really great option, honestly. I would probably be trying to... I would not say they're in sin, because you can't say that. The Bible doesn't say that. But I would be really probably encouraging them a different way of thinking. That is a difference when it comes to... There is a difference there, though, when it comes to when it comes, I mean, in my mind, when it comes to kids that you've already had, you've already, you know, you already have a few. But that's just my, that's definitely my take. Yes, Jeff? What about in a marriage? I mean, would you encourage a marriage if a woman is not safe or not safe? Would that impact other kids? That's a good question. I'm going to have to think about that. It doesn't really matter this the question is still the same I mean if they're if they're The question is if they're in if they're in if you're in a situation I So off the top of my head, and I need to think through this a little bit more, I think that if a husband, so we just studied 1 Peter 3 yesterday, or last Wednesday, and in 1 Peter 3, it actually says that a wife should, even unsaved, should submit to her husband. If her husband wants to have kids, I would think that that would still make sense. If he didn't, she's supposed to submit to him. So that may be a reason to not. That's off the top of my head, though. I wouldn't, yes. Sure, yes. That's exactly right. Yeah, she's still under the authority first of the Bible and of the Lord. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's probably wise not to. Yeah, okay. So that's off the top of my head. I think it's a fairly sound answer, but I will tell you that I hadn't really, not sure I've had that question, which is odd because it seems like a good question. But anyway, so, okay. Infertility. We have time for, no, we don't have time. Okay, that's good. I think I've had enough controversial subjects for one evening.