Welcome to Pilgrim Talk Radio. I'm Reverend Lee Johnson. With me today, the Jimmy Foxx of the group. What does that mean? Jimmy Foxx. He was the big slugger a long time ago. Great home run hitter. Well, thank you, Lee. And the Billy Martin of the group. It's good to be here. How you doing, Lee? How you do today? I'm okay. We also don't want to forget the person who puts up with us. Nick. How's it going, Nick? It's going all right. It'll be going a little better in about a half an hour. Okay, well, let's just get to the question then. We have been going through the Apostles' Creed and we have come to the question or the phrase in the Apostles' Creed, He descended into hell. That's right. He, of course, being Jesus here, descended into hell. And I think that this is one that is perhaps not always understood correctly. Well, I think what's going to happen here, Scott's going to give us a little bit of a historical background on this particular phrase in the Apostles' Creed. Which was added later. And that's it. Yeah. There's your little bit of background. And that's why people tune in for the in-depth. You know, some stuff where the people are like, I don't know what he's saying, but it must be true, because it's so confusing. It was added later. And what is, okay, so if you look at it in the context. Did you read number 44? No, you guys interrupted me. Yeah, well, let's look at this in the context here. First of all, the phrase, he descended into hell, was in the Apostles' Creed, where we say we believe. that he was crucified, dead, and buried, he descended into hell. So, here's the question. Does that mean after when he was buried, he literally went to hell? Is that what we're saying? Hey, I'm supposed to ask the questions here. So the question here is, do we believe he literally went to hell after he died? Go ahead, Scott. As the catechism says... Wait a second, I just want to acknowledge that that's an excellent question that Lee just asked. It is. It is. Go ahead, Scott. All right, thank you. The question 44 the head over catechism. Why is it added? He descended into hell and then in my greatest temptations I may be assured that Christ my Lord by his inexpressible anguish pains and terrors which he suffered in his soul on the cross and before has redeemed me from the anguish and torment of hell Now, there is a dispute about what happened to Jesus after He died. There are those that believe that He went to a literal place, a literal hell, and proclaimed victory over the demonic host, and He led captivity captive in His train, led them to heaven, and that He went there to declare victory in His work. But the Heidelberg Catechism clearly makes the comment that he suffered hell in his soul on the cross and before. Time out here, time out here. Why would people say they believe what you said beforehand? Is there any biblical basis? Are there texts? Yeah, Peter mentions that about descending or went into hell. In the days of Noah, also he preached in the days of Noah and they want to make that a reference to going and preaching to certain souls that were there in the day of Noah. That's 2 Peter 2, right? 2 Peter 2, yep. Okay, go ahead. Do you want to read that text? Sure, I guess. I could start with verse 4 here. It says, "...for God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness, to be kept until judgment. If He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly, if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, He condemned the next extinction..." I could keep going here. Where is the part that we're looking for? Dead air. It's dead air. Yeah. Yeah. Who gave him this job? Well, I was just looking at it. Now I found the wrong spot. I found the wrong spot. Oh, man. Great. Well, these two scholars are searching the tombs for this verse. Well, let's get back in. You can help me. I guess I'm going to have to carry on here. Yeah. Well, I mean, some could use a text like, for example, Ephesians, chapter 4, where it talks about, let me flip to this, where it talks about how Christ, He ascended, what does it mean, but He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth. So here we have one statement, and then we have the more explicit here, Ephesians 4, it talks about descending into the lower parts of the earth, and some might look at that and say, well, the lower parts of the earth, what is that? hell, right? Although, that's coming to the earth. Yeah, exactly, but some could use that that way. Now we've found the text that you guys were looking for. Where do you want me to start, 1 Peter 3.18? Yeah, 3.18 is fine. It says, For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formally did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water baptism which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the bodies and appeal to God for a good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ who has gone into heaven is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him there hell being the spirits in prison. Yeah, in the days of Noah, it makes mention of that. And what you need to do on these, the things that are less clear, is you need to go to the text of Scripture and understand them, the things that are less clear, in light of the things that are explicitly clear, that are more clear for us to understand. And so what do you do when you have a text like this where some argue that Jesus, when He died, He went to a literal place of hell, but yet on the cross Jesus told the thief, this day you will be with me in paradise. Which indicates that Jesus is in paradise. That Jesus is in paradise. Which means he's not in hell. And which he said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit. And so immediately after his death on the cross, he went into heaven. And that's exactly what Jesus said himself. So you need to interpret these things, these passages like this 1 Peter 3, in light of that which is explicitly clear. So whatever Peter is saying… He's not saying he went to a literal place of hell. And so as Reformed, as the Heidelberg Catechism teaches here, and as what John Calvin also taught, the order is important of the Apostles' Creed. And he descended into hell dead and buried. So when we understand that Christ suffered hell on the cross and before, and that was the hell for Jesus Christ. That's where his soul was rent by the infinite wrath of God against the sins of all those who were given to him from before the foundation of the world. That's where God's wrath was meted out upon our sins in Jesus Christ at that time, especially on the cross. And I like what the catechism says here, that in my greatest temptations, that I may be assured that Christ my Lord, notice this, his inexpressible anguish, pains, and tears. Inexpressible. We have no idea the torment that Christ went through for our sins, for those that would believe on Him, for those that were given to Him before the foundation of the world. It's inexpressible. And it's something that we will never understand, because we will never be made to suffer it. So what a joy to know that Christ took our punishment, took our penalty, took the consequences of our sin once for all time, so that we would never be made to suffer that. And so I can be assured that Christ took these things for me, which He suffered in His soul on the cross and before, and He has redeemed me. Okay, let me stop you right there for a second. I'm going to play the examiner question. Now, it says, in his soul. Is that playing down the significance and the importance of this physical bodily suffering? No, because he had a true soul. No, but just in emphasizing in his soul. I mean, don't we like to hear it, you know, at Easter or things like that, these great and long, descriptive kind of things of the physical torment? You know, for example— Like the Passion of the Christ. Right. Like, for example, Bill O'Reilly has his new book out, Killing Jesus, after publishing, Killing Lincoln and Killing Kennedy. Now it's Killing Jesus. And in that book, there's just an extensive consideration of the nature of the physical suffering, the physical torment that Christ would have endured, and then in the crucifixion, up to being beaten, mocked, and so on, and spit upon, but then just of the crucifixion. And so the whole emphasis is on bodily suffering. Here, it talks about he suffered in his soul on the cross and before. The inexpressible anguish, pains, and terrors which he suffered in his soul. Darrell Bock Yeah, and I think that's important, and I think that emphasis right there is made to be important for that very fact, that it's – did Christ suffer in his physical body more than any other person that ever walked the face of this earth? Did he suffer more than the thieves on the cross? No, they were being crucified too. Right. And so they were going through the same. And you know what? They went the full extent of that suffering where Jesus had died, had given up, nobody took his life from him. He laid his life down. As you said, into your hands I commit my spirit. Into your hands. And nobody, as I said, nobody, Jesus said, nobody takes my life from me. I mean, who could take the Christ? You know, when they show up at the tomb and there's 500 soldiers and Jesus says, who are you seeking? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth, I am he. egg away me. I am the eternal God." And they all fall over backwards. I mean, with a word. Who can take the Christ? He gives up his soul and he does that. You know, that's the meek and mild and the wimpish Jesus that so many believe in today is just incredible. They haven't read the Scriptures. Christ wasn't this meek and mild weakling. He was meek. He was meek, and He was humble the most. But meekness isn't necessarily weakness. Weakness, right. So, you know, He suffered on the cross. He suffered physically in His body, but He suffered in His soul, the wrath of God in His – that's the important – that's where the body's going to die. And the soul lives on for eternity. And I think that in this naturalistic age in which we live, and so many people think that once you die, that's it, and there is no more. Eternity is written in the heart of all men. Every man knows that when they die, that's not it. And when they deny that, they're just simply suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. So it's important, I think, of getting away from that emphasis of just the physical torments and recognizing that God's wrath was poured out against him in his soul. That's where sin originates, in the soul. It's not in the physical body. It's in my mind. It's in my inner man. That's where it is. Darrell Bock So let me get this clear. Making the statement you make about people, what I hear you saying, they're whistling in the dark. hoping the boogeyman goes away. Poignant. Like Tom Hanks said on The Terminal, Dracula. It's poignant for a man once to die, then the judgment. And you're sane. People know that. I'm saying what the scripture says. Solomon said in Ecclesiastes that eternity is written in every man's heart. In Paul said in Romans 1, the Greek phrase, knowing the God. So you're saying God's Word is like a double-edged sword that lays bare the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4.12. It's a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. We're going to come back and talk more about that. Welcome back to Pilgrim Talk Radio. It's good to be back. It's always good to be back. It's always good to be here. It's a good day. We've been talking about the phrase in the Apostles' Creed, he descended into hell, and what it exactly means. And so let's talk a little bit about then why it's important to understand this phrase as not going into a literal spiritual, or a literal physical, excuse me there, hell. Because there are many people who still teach that. Which we were talking about. Yes. Whether it's those who I believe he went there to preach, right, to set those who were captive free. Yeah, sort of the Christ is victor approach there. Right, exactly. But there's the other side of that who believe he went to hell to be further tormented, that the torment of the cross wasn't sufficient, it wasn't enough. that he went to hell to be tormented, and be tormented specifically by Satan. And you can hear that type of a teaching on the TBN. I don't know how many of the listeners watch anything like that, but Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagen and Benny Hinn, and that's the kind of theology that comes out of the Word Faith movement, is that Jesus went and I think… Also known as the prosperity gospel. And I think there was one particular phrase that has said that he went and his emaciated, wormy little spirit was poured out under the wrath of Satan in hell. And that basically gets back to a ransom theory theology, that Christ had to pay the ransom to Satan, and that is not biblical theology. Christ paid the ransom to the father and it's also and tied into that I know Kenneth Copeland teaches that the idea of the born-again Jesus that he had to go to hell and then he was born again in heaven or in hell and he's the first born-again man yeah so he wasn't actually Christ he was literally you know dead in trespasses and sins and had to be born again well there you go and that's you guys watch a lot more TV than I do or read Scott's watching it, you know this. I know he's watching it. I mean, there's a good book, I think McConnell is the author's name, it's called The Different Gospel. Yeah, D.R. McConnell? D.R. McConnell, and he goes extensively into the historical roots, the philosophical roots of the whole Word of Faith, prosperity gospel of our day, and he discusses issues like this, and these things, this isn't the gospel. Right. It is another gospel, which is not a gospel, and many people are deceived by it. And this is where they may say, well, we're just believing historic Christian theology. And right here it says in the Apostles' Creed, and it's necessary for all Christians to believe what is summarized here in the Apostles' Creed. And the Apostles' Creed teaches that he descended into hell. So we're not unorthodox. We're not being unfaithful to God's Word. We're just in the line, the tradition of Christianity, and we're okay. And maybe this is a time to expand a little bit more on, it was added later from Reverend Henry there. I want to make sure I got this right from when we talked about it earlier. Now let me clarify, the reason why is because our host, Lee Johnson, Well, he said I got it wrong. Spanky Johnson. No, he didn't say you got it wrong. He wanted to know, Scott, what in the world are you talking about? I think you confused everybody. So clarify what you meant. Let me clarify. Let me make sure that I get my orthography correct here. Did you know what that means? I can't even spell it. How am I going to remember? You're wording. You're wording correct. Spanky's in bed. The right order of wording. John Calvin, when he came to the Apostles' Creed, He made this comment in his Institutes about the Apostles' Creed, and he makes a comment about the wording. And he said that the wording would better serve the clarity of Scripture if it was worded this way. that He descended into hell, crucified, dead, and buried. And so we understand that His hell was on the cross. And then when He was buried, Jesus Christ went, I mean, His physical body went into the tomb, and His soul went to be with His Father. And it was, like I said, it was added later, that phrase, He descended into hell, wasn't in the original, wasn't even in the original with the Heidelberg Catechism. It was something that was added later. And because of much dispute, much questioning about these things. But I think it's, to be clear on these things, we need to understand the things that are not explicit, the things that are implicit, you know, in light of the things that are explicit. That's, you know, biblical hermeneutics and understanding the art and science of biblical interpretation. That's the good practice. The things that are not as clear, you see those in the light of the things that are explicitly clear. And I think it's very clear. I mean, in my mind, in my understanding of Christ and His death, He did not go to some literal place. There was no need. Christ suffered hell on the cross. That's when the wrath of God, that's his crying out, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Hell is a place that people are forsaken by God. Christ was forsaken on the cross, and he suffered the eternity of God's wrath, that infinite wrath, and that span on the cross. And then he ascended into heaven after he rose from the dead, but immediately his soul went to be with his Father. I think my understanding even of how this got into the Apostles' Creed was that there was a copy that they found somewhere where he descended into hell was sort of written in the margin after crucified, dead, and buried, as if it was an explanatory note. That this is where he suffered, as you just said. This is where he suffered hell. This is where he suffered that Darrell Bock Some of the scribes would do that. They would put off to the side a little note, and these notes at times would get mixed in with the text of Scripture as if it became Scripture. Darrell Bock And so I think the Apostle's Creed always meant that he descended into hell to be an explanation of what we just confessed about his being crucified, dead, and buried. This was where he suffered hell. And it's not meant to be read as a temporal thing here. that these are the steps. He was crucified, dead, buried, ascended into hell, rose from the dead. This is an explanatory clause. And that's how the Catechism is treating it. This is explaining the importance. That's how the Catechism explains it. And if you read through the Catechism, for example, you get to questions 66 and 67 that deal with the sacraments. And the emphasis is on the one sacrifice of Christ accomplished on the cross, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as the only ground of our salvation. Yeah, but I would disagree with Lee with the explanation, because it is an order. And we see that from the beginning. He was conceived of the Holy One. He was born. I mean, there is an order. There is a logical sequence, you see. And there is an explanation, but I think it was inserted. It could have been inserted in a better place. That's what I'm saying. And I agree with Calvin on that. I don't think it was just an explanatory. I think the explanatory is there, but I clearly see there is a sequence that follows. That's following simply the order of the Hanover Catechism itself. Well, Scott's wrong on this. It could be. I've been wrong a lot of times. I have no problem with that. I don't have a complex where I always have to be right. I could be wrong. Well, then say I was wrong. So let's make it perfectly clear. No, I said I disagree with you. That's been proven wrong. With all the background noise going on right now and the laughing for the listener, it's the sacrifice of Christ accomplished on the cross. The one sacrifice that Christ made for us on the cross, our whole salvation, that's the suffering. And that's where He suffered the pain and torment of hell. Exactly. And this goes back, even this statement on He descended into hell, you go back to question 37 that deals with our understanding of the word suffered, right, and that's explanatory of when did Christ suffer. And it's, you know, His whole life, especially at the end on the cross, but His whole life He bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race. That one sacrifice on the cross. So we're going to make clear all the debate over the meaning of He descended into hell, so on and so forth. That's debate, but it's clear that orthodox Christianity teaches that Christ's suffering on the cross is sufficient. There's no need for any suffering in hell. There's no need. So for whatever that might mean, we've got to make that person aware. Yeah, and like I said, when we interpret the implicit in light of the explicit, when Jesus said, it's finished. It's finished. What in the world would he have to go to a literal place? Which can be translated, it's paid in full. It's paid in full. It's done. So if it's paid in full, you don't have any room for any more, do you? You do not. No, sir. Reverend Henry was shaking his head yes, saying, yes, Daryl, you are right again. He's got to do that so much, sometimes he's got to wear that neck brace. He's agreeing with me so often. I feel like a bobblehead. Yeah, he's just like, yeah, that's right. That's right. So Lee, what's next? Well, I was just going to add that if it's paid in full, not only does he not need to go to hell, there's also no more need for other sacrifices. Robert Chisholm Yeah, since it's paid in full. Darrell Bock Since it's paid in full. Robert Chisholm Right, exactly. Darrell Bock Since it's done. Robert Chisholm And the one sacrifice. Darrell Bock One sacrifice. Robert Chisholm And once for all. Darrell Bock Yeah, just that one phrase of Christ on the cross there. It is finished. Just understanding that, looking at that for what Jesus says after he suffers what he does, it makes all these other passages clear. Just like you said, once for all time. There's no other need. There's no more suffering. So do you want me to put him on the spot? Sure, put him on the spot. So how would you then interpret 1 Peter 3? I told you. I think it's speaking about the saints of old that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and Christ, the Spirit of Christ, was there through Noah preaching to those saints who are now dead. who were dead, as Peter wrote this. He didn't really put him on the spot. I thought it would be tougher than that, but he came through. Well, how about we discuss this. In his soul on the cross, so in his very being, because he had a body, but he was a soul, just like us. We have a body, but we're not our body, we are our soul. So he suffered, is that fair to say? He suffered in his soul, in his very being, in the very essence of who he is. Because the scriptures, when they speak of the soul, you can speak of, you can use soul in different ways. You can use soul as we are body and soul, a dichotomy. We are body and soul. But the scripture also, the Old Testament, uses speaking of individuals as souls. How many souls were baptized? Well, what do you mean souls were baptized? Well, that's speaking of people in the fullness of their being. And so that's what it's speaking of. Just like baptizing in Jesus' name. Does that mean that we're not to use the Trinitarian formula, that Jesus' name only, that's the way that we are to baptize? Jesus Himself taught that we're to baptize into the name of the Father. And you mentioned Jesus' name only, and that's oneness Pentecostalism. Right, but that's the doctrine. Another heresy. So what do you do with the doctrine where Jesus is baptized in Jesus' name, and then all of a sudden Jesus Himself taught to be baptizing into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? And now you have conflicting. Okay, so they're baptizing in Jesus' name only, and yet Jesus taught to baptize in the name of the Trinitarian formula, in the name of God. And so that's simply a representation of baptizing in Jesus' name. It's like we pray, and when we pray in Jesus' name, in Jesus' authority. And if you're under Jesus' authority, you're going to obey his word. Yeah, it's Jesus was body and soul He had a he had a full human body at a full human soul, and he suffered that wrath of God in his being Particularly in his soul so in our last minute here Scott. Why don't you tell the people? listening here in Omaha where they can come to learn more about our church plant here. Mission Middle School, Heritage Reformed Church, Mission Middle School, 2202 Washington Street in Bellevue. You can look us up on the web, heritagercos.com or look us up on Facebook at Heritage Reformed Church. That was pretty good. He didn't do any WWW. No, he didn't. He didn't. And he didn't use my new line. On Facebook, they're all a Twitter about heritage reform. We just got to go on that. That's it. So come back here next week. 660 KCRO.