The following is a production of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. For more information about the seminary, how you can support it, or applying to become a student, please visit www.gpts.edu. Hello and welcome to another edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. My name is Zach Groff and I'm your host. I'm also the Director of Advancement and Admissions here at the seminary, so if you have an interest in enrolling with us or in supporting our work, you can let me know. I'm sitting here with Dr. Joseph Paipa, our president, as well as one of our professors here at the seminary. He teaches historical and systematic theology, and we are very grateful for his time and willingness to answer some of your questions. Thank you for joining me, Dr. Paipa. Thank you, Zach. Now, before we dive into the questions, I'm going to open us with a word of prayer and we will share some announcements from the seminary. Please join with me in prayer. Our Father and our God, we bless your name. In fact, we praise you for you are our creator and our sustainer. And Jesus Christ, we confess you to be our sole redeemer. And we lift you up even now in this time when we address some of the questions that your people have brought before us to consider. Lord, I pray that you would be with us by your Holy Spirit, that we would speak truth, and where we err, you would close ears, but where we bring words of life, you would open ears. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. Amen. I just wanted to share a couple of the events going on at the seminary between now and the end of the year, as well as give a little highlight of the conference. So first, Dr. Schall's inaugural lecture as full professor of Hebrew and Old Testament will be taking place Monday, November 20th. at Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville. If you're here in the area, we would love for you to join us. There will be free refreshments provided by Dr. and Mrs. Shaw and the Dear Saints at Second, and if you're in the know, you know that those refreshments will be worth the price of your commute alone, not to mention the lecture itself. And if you are in the Greenville area, do not be dismayed. Mel Duncan down at Second has told me that they will be able to simulcast the lecture. And I suppose that that will involve recording it as well for the sake of posterity. So and however you want to enjoy that time that we're going to be having, you may. You have a lot of options open to you. We'll post a link, Zach, before the end so folks will know how to access it. yes i'm just waiting on the link uh... from our media director steve richmond uh... other things going on at the seminary uh... between now and the end of the year we are uh... we do have open our registration for winter courses for non gbts students at this point i'm of course our students are already registered for them but if you are a pastor or ruling elder wanting to grow in your understanding of reformed worship or of what it means to be a Reformed pastor, or even to brush up on your preaching skills, you're welcome to join us for any of those classes. And then anyone, ordained or not, you can join us for our Presbyterian Church History course, which involves a tour of Columbia and Charleston. So please reach out to the seminary if you'd like more details about those. We do have forms prepared that you can fill out. and we would love for you to join us for one or more of these classes that we have this winter. I intend to be in Reformed Worship, which is taught by Dr. Piper, but Dr. Ian Hamilton will teach Reformed Pastor, Dr. Wilborn will teach Presbyterian Church History, and we would just love for you to join us. Let me also say, though, I would like to encourage ministers to take the homiletics intro course with Bruno Macedo. It is a great course. And if you've not had a particular design GPTS course in preaching, this will profit any minister who's been in the ministry even for a long period of time. And we would welcome ministers to join us for this as well. As well as some of you who are studying in other seminaries and would like to get the Greenville philosophy of preaching, this is a great opportunity. With that, we'll dive into our questions. Or no, I did say I'd give you a little preview of the conference. Keep an eye out. We have ads running now on The Equilibrium Report and in some print magazines across the country. Registration should open either this afternoon or this evening once I get things loaded up after Dr. Pipe and I make a visit with Dr. Smith. I imagine most of you have heard, if not all of you, that our beloved founder, Dr. Morton H. Smith, who is 93, had a stroke this past Thursday. In doing the MRI, they discovered a blood clot that caused the stroke, but they also discovered a tumor on his brain. Because of his age and frailty, they have decided not to do any surgical treatment. Initially, though, they thought that he would probably die within a couple of days. He has responded very well. And then they made it indefinite and Saturday he actually set up and ate some yogurt and graham crackers. So Lord willing, the Lord will spare him for us a while longer. So we're going to drive up after the podcast and visit him in Brevard in the hospital. I think if you want to send a note you can send it to the Brevard Hospital in Brevard, North Carolina or send it to us here at the seminary and we'll get it to him. Please keep Dr. Smith and Mrs. Smith in your prayers as they go through this. Like Dr. Pipus said, he's 93 years old. He'll be 94 in December if he lives to see his 94th birthday. But moving into our questions now, our first question comes from our friend Chad Warner of Greenville, South Carolina. And Chad asks, when Jesus drove the merchants out of the temple, Was he making a point against commerce in general in the temple or only against theft, that is, dishonest commerce in the temple? And he gives his citations for this account as well. Thanks, Chad. And I think our hearers would know the account. I think it's both. Obviously, Jesus was opposed to the money changing practices, which was only one part of it, though. Others were simply selling livestock. smelly lambs and whatever there in the temple and Jesus is really asserting the spirituality of God's worship and the purposes of the temple. Now we recognize in the New Covenant that there are no holy spaces. A place is made holy by the worship service that takes place there and so We recognize that we can use buildings where churches meet to worship for other activities. Many churches have a hall that they use for the totality of church life until they can afford to build more spaces. But the spirituality of worship is very important and that the gathering of God's people is to be a gathering for prayer and worship. I think a principle to take out of that is where does a church put its money? Does a church need to run an athletic program, have a gym that people would pay to use? These are things that I wish were being more seriously considered by churches in terms of the purposes to which they put their property. In addition to using church property in inappropriate ways, like you cited, or at least unintentionally, at the very least, what about using the social networks that we have in the church improperly? So to give an example, you have a man who who has pursued ordained ministry as a ruling elder in a church, but primarily for the purposes of advancing his business, whatever it may be. Would that be analogous to what outraged Christ here in these passages that Chad cited? You know, Zach, I haven't thought about that particular implication there. Obviously to abuse church office there are plenty of passages that speak to not using office for greed or covetousness, for self-aggrandizement. The prophets speak to this, Ezekiel speaks to it, Jeremiah speaks to it, the Apostle Paul speaks to it. So I don't know this directly related or even indirectly related but it's clearly an abuse of the church. I thought when you mentioned social networking, you were also going to ask about churches or people in the church using their social network on social media to push political agendas or to push a candidate or something like that, and these are things that we ought to keep the church out of. Yeah, I mean, those would certainly fall under the heading too. And I was even thinking of certain information ministries and just expanding on Chad's question as we conceive of the church, not so much as a physical temple, like in these instances where Christ is overturning the tables and lashing with the nine tails and such, but you know, the church is the people of God. And as we talk about that, but we don't have to go. One more thing. Now, I mentioned spirituality of the church, the confession of faith, Westminster Confession of Faith in the chapter on the church. As it talks about the purpose of the church, the purpose of the church is for the gathering and perfecting of the elect. And it says then that God has given to the church ordinances, word, and ministry unto that end. And so everything the church does needs to be focused on that work with the diaconal supplement of that work. And I think we really need to do a lot of redefining today. I think you're right. Thank you, Dr. Piper. Our next question comes from Lucas Salgado of Recife, Brazil. And Lucas actually sent us a number of questions that we may or may not get to throughout the course of the interview. He asks this, When I was in college, there were some Christian groups that organized prayer meetings, Bible studies, and evangelistic outreaches. I went to a few of these meetings and became very uncomfortable with some of the doctrines, so I decided to stop going to their meetings. However, I am confident that they were sincere evangelical believers in the Savior Jesus Christ, and I knew some people that have been truly saved through their gospel preaching. So my question is, is it okay to participate in Christian groups at school, university, or work, even if their doctrine is not entirely in line with the Bible? Is it wise or useful to participate in these groups in order to reach sinners and to be a witness to others? Thank you, Lucas. It's a very thoughtful question, and I think quite complex. Let me start with the spirituality of the church. It's to the church that Christ has given the sacraments as well as the ministry and the Word and the promise of the Holy Spirit to bless those things. So our conviction here is that parachurch organizations should not be doing the work of the church in evangelism because they can't baptize people. and in various forms of outreach. So, theoretically, we want to focus our attention, then, on the church's ministry, which should be the second thing, then, and that is, ideally, in any university setting, local Reformed churches would work together in order to have people on the campus and And our denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America, years ago, decades ago, we started the Reformed University Ministries for that purpose, to have a church-based ministry on campus. Each campus group then is related connectionally through its campus minister to the local church. Now, the problem with being involved in the para-church groups is that many of them supplant the work of the church. and downplay the necessity of involvement in a local congregation. Now, I know you, and I know that's not your issue, but I just want to address those two things. Now, if you're in a place and you're able to have fellowship with other Christians through one of these organizations, and it pretty much is the liberty of each Christian individual, your primary church life needs to be in your local church. If there's not a sufficiently good local church, although you must be worshiping and involved in the church, to have some fellowship with Christians in one of these groups so you can encourage each other. I think that, again, it's a matter of conscience, but I think you're free to do that if your conscience is free. But our focus both for outreach and discipleship and service needs to be. So if you've got that kind of spare time, then you go to your local church and start the Bible study with the session's permission on your campus, or just get really involved in the life of the church. Thank you for the question, Lucas. And he gives us a second question right now. It's quite short, and I think you're going to enjoy answering it. Lucas asks, how can someone be sure about the call to the ministry? Very important question, and a neglected question. The statistics are that some over 50% of men who finish seminary in five years are out of the ministry. And what that means is they weren't properly called or weren't called, didn't have gifts for ministry. And so you're right to ask the question how to discern one's call. We first refer to the gifts that Christ would give to a man that he's calling. So a man who's called to the ministry needs to have above average mental gifts, able to interpret scripture and speaking gifts in order, well, mental gifts to organize that material, speaking gifts then to communicate that message that he has brought out of Scripture. So there are a lot of mental things that would be involved but then there's also the necessity of holiness and that's why the Apostle gives us in Titus and 1st Timothy these qualifications for ministers and elders. We are to be men in our piety that are exemplary, it doesn't mean that we're sinless. But there's a pattern of holiness that is both attractive and we can say to God's people, follow me as I follow Christ. And so we have the gifts and we have the graces. These in a sense are things in the man that as a man is thinking about the ministry, he then should go to his office bearers to his elders in the local church. And let me back up. And there should be a desire for ministry. Now sometimes that desire will come from the elders in the church. They'll approach a man and say, we think you have gifts and graces for the ministry. We'd like you to pray about this when we want to help you test your gifts. So the desire can be implanted. are come up through the more direct work of the Holy Spirit, but there must be a desire to minister, to serve people. I say that ministers in the first place are deacons, to minister to the needs of people, to have a servant spirit, to have love for Christ and for the triune God to a love for communicating truth, a love for the truth, a desire to know the truth. It's a very interesting question because just this weekend I was doing a conference in North Carolina and the elders were sharing about a young man who really wanted them to recommend him to ministry but he showed no interest in reading sermons, reading theology, He wasn't coming to the elders or to the pastor with questions about ministry. And they're simply saying that there's no subjective hunger for ministry in that young man. He might grow and mature, but right now. But then we ask the elders in church to examine us and help us test our gifts. And so a man that has a desire for the ministry should be involved teaching Bible study, doing evangelism, going with the pastor on pastoral visits, getting in various types of ministry opportunities so he can be observed by the elders. The gifts will be rough for the most part, but there's evidence of these things. Then the elders will concur and say, yes, we think that you should pursue the ministry. Now, in our Presbyterian system, there are yet further steps, and the first is coming under care. So when the man and the elders agree, then the elders will recommend him to the Presbytery, where he is examined particularly with respect to his call to ministry and his piety. If he passes that, then they enroll him as a candidate for the ministry. encourage him in his seminary studies. The next step, then, is licensure, and that's where a man can begin to test his gifts more publicly, particularly with respect to preaching in local churches. And, of course, the third step is ordination, and kind of the seal on that, then, is when a group of God's people recognize the gifts and want to have that man come as a pastor or an associate pastor, and they call him. And then the presbytery examines him in that last step. now with respect to his full preparation, his theological and biblical discernment, his ability to communicate and to think. And if they concur, then that man would be ordained. So it's not an easy process. We also encourage churches to do this, and that is something that Greenville Seminary is very aggressive about. We require church endorsement for a man to study for the ministry. Now sometimes a man can come, still in the process, and the elders agree, we don't know if this particular man has gifts. But take this next step. And then one of the things we do at the seminaries, we also help a man think through these things. And the nice thing is, if a man comes to us, and in a couple of years, he, in his session, realizes he doesn't have gifts for ministry, he takes a Master of Arts in theology. I mean, then he's very well equipped to go and serve the church as a ruling elder or a deacon, and whatever vocation Christ does call him into, he's going to be theologically equipped in that vocation. You know, we have men that even started with us this fall who entered into the M.A. program with the intention of exploring a call, but not having a firm sense or even external confirmation that the call is there. And I, as the director of admissions, am very clear with them that what they're doing, A, is not a waste of time, but may not mature or come to fruition in the way that they're expecting, but they will grow spiritually through it. And we've actually had it go both ways. I just participated in the ordination of one of our finest graduates. He's served in a small church about an hour and a half south of here. He came in the M.A. program, and as I observed him, amongst others, but I don't know what others said, but I challenged him. I said, I believe that you are called to the ministry and you need to get in the MDiv program, which he did. than other men that we've encouraged to switch to the M.A. program. They've done that. So you're not locked into something. It's just a great opportunity to develop. Absolutely. So the next question on our list is from William Tejeda, San Antonio, Texas. But he just sent me a message through our live broadcast app here. And it's with reference to the recent dustup between Scott Clark and Mark Jones and John Piper. But the question, though instigated by that, I think is one that's important to address anyway, and doesn't have to do with just that little exchange between those men. The question is, for the Protestant and the Reformed, are good works necessary for salvation? Not justification, mind you, but salvation. Is it right to say that justification is one new covenant blessing under the broad heading of salvation? I would say yes to the first part, William, that good works Growth in godliness is necessary for salvation. I think the scripture teaches that, our standards teach that. The Bible says, pursue that sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord. I wouldn't phrase the second part in the same way. Justification is not just one part, it is foundational. Justification is the grounds of our legal acceptance with God and it is the grounds by which we go to heaven. And justification, God pardons our sins, but he also constitutes us and declares us legally righteous, innocent and not guilty. Now, that's absolutely necessary. But because justification grows out of regeneration, so a person is born again, the Spirit calls them to faith in Christ. As they believe in Christ for justification, they have a new heart, and the confession says they have a seed of righteousness, and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them." Now just imagine if the Spirit of Christ is dwelling in you, are you not going to be transformed from the inside out? And Paul addresses that in 1 Corinthians 1 when he talks about Our union with Christ says, of His, of God's doing, you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Now, the grammar there is important, both righteousness and sanctification. Righteousness is justification, but there is the close connection. If a person is justified, he's going to grow in holiness. And so this is what James is getting at when he talks about Abraham being justified by his works. It was the declaration of the reality of his faith. Thank you, Dr. Piper. We'll ask your other question too, William, because it's a good question. He asks, and I've thought about this frequently too, what is your opinion on Dave Ramsey's teachings in his books and classes? Should Christians use credit cards, loans, and the like? You know, I think that Mr. Ramsey has many good Christian principles. I think we can go to Proverbs and find these these precepts there. I think the Bible says that a debtor is enslaved to the creditor. But I don't think we can make ironclad rules in terms of how one manages his finances. I use credit cards, but I only use them if I can pay them off each month. So there's nothing wrong with using a credit card. There are things in our culture, I think, for which we need loans, and I think particularly of buying a house, a car, which is a necessity, or maybe paying for college. So there are types of debt that seem to be allowable according to Christian liberty. So I don't think we ought to pontificate, but I think the idea of living debt-free is a good goal for any Christian. Paul does say, No man anything but love, and by that he means live with our neighbors according to his law. So I think Ramsey's helped a lot of people become much better managers of their resources. We just don't want to put in an absolute moral standard there. But the important principle, again, is if I don't have money to buy, it's not essential. then I ought to recognize in God's providence I don't need this non-essential, and so I don't buy it on credit. I pray for this thing, and if God wants me to have it, then I believe that he's going to provide the funds. I think it's a principle that particularly churches need to think about, not so much educational institutions, but I just learned of a church that has And I double-asked a $30,000 monthly mortgage. And what that does, it can put pressure to the elders or the deacons or whatever on the pastor to trim his sales, not to deal with certain doctrines that would offend people or don't dwell on sin because people are not going to come to church or we need to adjust our worship. So I think church is also, again I don't think you can put it out as a moral principle, but in terms of a matter of wisdom Be very careful about debt. And when we're getting back to individuals, I know a lot of our listeners are men in the ministry or men preparing for the ministry. One of our great emphases here and one of our values at Greenville Seminary is to graduate men with a burden for the lost and for preaching the word, but not a burden of debt. because debt at the individual level to the minister has the same result as what you described as a possibility for this church with a $30,000 a month mortgage, and that is you enter into the ministry with a load of debt, you have this extreme pressure to provide for your family, which is godly, but also to pay off your student loan debt, and paying that off is godly as well, but that can result in you compromising in order to stay in the call that you've been given, especially if it was really difficult to find a call right out of seminary, which it is for a lot of men. And I've known men that there's no way in the normal course of life they would ever be able to pay off their education debt. So yes, I'm glad you pointed that out, Zach. I hadn't thought about it in this connection. But our tuition and fees are two-thirds to three-fourths less the other seminaries. other Presbyterian seminaries. And this is deliberate. So whereas the general rule of thumb, you can look this up, it's both undergraduate and graduate level education, is that a school gets about 70% of its income from its students. That's why we have student debt. 30% from donors. We have reversed that. And we have, we get less than 30% of our income from the tuition and fees of our students. Thus, we must generate 70% of our income from donors, churches, and individuals. And then on top of that, we have our waiver program, where a student who comes from a church that is committed to supporting Greenville Seminary at a minimal level actually comes tuition free, pays his fees, but he's tuition free. And then when I was talking about testing gifts, I meant to say this then as well, and churches also need to get into this partnership. So if elders come to the conclusion that this man has gifts for the ministry, then they need to put their money where their mouth is. And we've had students in the past, we've got a student right now, he gets a monthly stipend from his church who sent him to seminary. Now, some churches won't have the same kind of resources. They can give a little bit, though, or they could get other churches in the Presbytery, but we need to get our churches much more involved. And that's true down there in Brazil as well. I know the economy is poor right now, but we need to get our churches involved in sending men not just saying, yes, go. It's kind of like, be warm and full. But here, we're going to help you go to the degree that we can. From a seminarian's perspective, if you're listening to this as a ruling elder and you're thinking about this issue and what your church does for seminarians, I can tell you that you don't have to cover 100% of his living expenses to make a huge impact on his own soul to know that there's a church backing him up at some level. even if he's still responsible for covering the majority of the burden. And so I'll leave it there. I won't get any more personal than that, but just if you're a ruling elder or a deacon or even a missions committee chairperson or a member of presbytery, know that whatever support you render to a seminarian that you endorse for seminary is support that will be received with gladness and with appreciation and will sustain him through dark times in seminary because, hey, even seminarians struggle with doubts and with study loads and all kinds of trials while they're in seminary. And you mentioned missions committees, Zach. I want churches to get this realization that there's no better use for missions money than to prepare a man for the ministry. It's just the kind of investment that's going to come back. thousandfold. Absolutely. Our next question comes from Deborah Welch of Newark, Delaware. Deborah, it's nice to hear from you. She asks, how is Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary specifically training seminarians to deal with the postmodern problem and its resultant influence on our congregation? Deborah, thank you for listening. In the first place, We are convinced that the primary antidote for any culture, any generational group, is the simple means of grace. And so we begin with that foundation, that our men are well grounded in how to interpret and preach the Word of God, and in how to pastor and shepherd people's souls, and how to worship. And in worship, emphasizing that our worship should be full of the Word of God, as some of my friends have said, that we read the Word and we preach the Word and we pray the Word and we sing the Word, not just in Psalms, but in biblical hymns. We feed on the Word and have the sensible signs of the sacraments. That is what God has used in every generation in the 2,000 years since Christ established New Testament Church. And again, it goes back to what I referred to in our confession of faith. Christ is given to His church, His ordinances, the ministry, the oracles, the Word of God. So our foundation is there, but we also recognize that there will be cultural distinctives. And so in the first place, when we study, particularly, say, in systematics, we are seeking to look both at the church and church life and pastoral experience, but also how the truth of God will intersect with the particular errors in culture. So with the relativism and the self-centeredness of a postmodern culture, the lawlessness, then we're going to address those things. Then we have in our curriculum a number of courses, equipments. So we have not one, but two apologetics courses. And these courses are taught by our evangelism professors so that we are wetting apologetics and outreach. We have a cults course that deals, and it's not a set curriculum, so Dr. McGoldrick is looking at what other pervasive things we have taught electives. We've had a required course on Islam, but it was very poorly appreciated. And it got to the end where it wasn't that well taught either. But we do have people here that are experts on Islam. So it's even a broader approach than simply post-modernism. We think that, yes, we want to speak to our age and not to the mythical age of the Puritans or the American Presbyterians or whatever. So we're seeking to equip men to do those things. Even in church history, we're looking for the parallels. And so Dr. Goldrick got into studying cults when he wrote his book, Ancient Heresies, Modern Cults. And there is really nothing new under the sun when it comes to error. And so he has simply shown these patterns. So these are some of the things that we're doing. And as far as the postmodern problem is concerned, there's a real temptation, especially in academia, to fall for the thought and the thinking of Derrida and Foucault and all these Frenchman, but other thinkers as well, who have had an unwieldy influence over academic thought. But at Greenville, we seek to answer that with the Word of God and with Scripture, as Dr. Piper expounded. One thing that I really want to highlight that he said is there's nothing new under the sun. And so even though the postmodern problem seems so foreign in so many ways and iterations, At the end of the day, it resembles that which the church has been confronted with for generations and for millennia. So thank you for the question, Deborah. And moving on, we got a question from one of our students, Bradley Chastwick of Linthicum Heights, Maryland. He asks, should Christian schools display the American flag and require the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance to that flag? And is one sinning should they choose not to participate in said ritual? Brad, I've been mulling over this ever since I read it. And I don't know there's a simple answer to this, and of course in today's climate. Let me, where I can answer quite authoritatively, Christian churches should not display a Christian flag because a Christian church belongs to the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. And you mean in the sanctuary exclusively or just on the grounds of the church at all? That's the only place I've ever seen it is in the center of worship. So now, so let's say, we'll build a question, so let's say that church houses a Christian school. I am of the impression that teaching patriotism is a very important thing, not to ignore the flaws of our country. One of the problems we have today is that our publicly educated people have no concept of the uniqueness of our government, our culture, anything else. So that just in a survey that came out last week, one out of five millennials think that Stalin, Lenin, and the current dictator of North Korea are heroes. And 50% of these people said that they would be happy to live in a socialist or communist society. Now that's happened because we quit teaching government and civics. And I was taught patriotism as a Christian in high school, in a public high school. And I think that that is something that is important. Now, it's part of patriotism. I don't see anything offensive in saluting the flag of my country and honoring the symbol of my country. It is the God-ordained because it's been established by our elected representatives as the symbol of our country. So I don't have a problem in a school environment with the Pledge of Allegiance. can probably get shot down for this, but that's just, I'm answering the question where I am and what my thinking is about it. Now, if a Christian parent has a problem with that, then they need to have the school, I think, should have an allowance for conscience. And so, but not in a way of open display and stuff like that, but just work it out where this can be done, where the student's not put on the spot, and the other students are either up in arms or receiving a bad example. So there needs to be some creativity. Then if it's done, but the display is surely not a problem. It is our flag. And the Pledge of Allegiance, I have no problem with it in its proper context. What do you think, Zach? You're a millennial. What do I think? Well, um... I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you asked, when I was in high school as a young Christian, I refused to salute the flag. I refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in my homeroom and in any public assembly at the school. And a little anecdote, my homeroom teacher says, why don't you say the Pledge, Zach? Because I mean, I wasn't a a kind of a outcast in any other way. I mean, I pulled good grades, I was very active in class, active in extracurricular activities and things. And I said to her, well, out of religious conviction, and she said, well, what do you mean? Aren't you just a Christian? She's Roman Catholic, sweet lady. She said, aren't you just an evangelical Christian? Don't they salute the flag? I said, well, I pledge allegiance to a country without borders and without politicians. and uh... that's uh... for those of you who are my age you probably know that's quoting a switch foot song and uh... that really just revealed my heart at the time as a high school student doctor pipers fit to fall out of the chair right now he's laughing so hard off the mic My objection to it really was born out of a lack of real good thinking on it. There might be some truth into what I was saying, but at the heart of it, I was very immature, however many years ago this was. I'm still very immature, but not in that particular way. I don't have a problem saying the Pledge of Allegiance. Now, I would say that if I was compelled to take part in a nationalistic not just a patriotic, but a nationalistic, even fascistic exercise in some kind of dystopic future. And they forced upon me the saying of the pledge. At that point, I would even today refuse to do it. But notice how the context is very different. Right. So if I could go back in time and visit my homeroom in high school and I see my adolescent self there sitting down during the Pledge of Allegiance, I'd go over to him and say, young man, stand up and get over yourself. But that's my two cents. Thank you. Probably more than you bargained for when you asked me my opinion on it. Our next question comes from River Labelle of Centerville, Massachusetts, and River asks, It seems to me that among our Reformed brethren, spiritual revival is a topic that gets little attention or prayer. This term has different definitions, so exactly what sort of revival should we be seeking from the Lord? Why do you think it gets such short shrift in the pulpit and at prayer meetings? And how do we overcome our pride and doubt to renew our pleas for spiritual revival across our land? River, thank you for a wonderful question and just let folks know the congregation there in Cape Cod has just become a sponsoring congregation of Greenville Seminary. I think that there's two or three things in answering your question. One is there is a misunderstanding of revival where people have confused revival and revivalism. Revival is Basically the Holy Spirit's intensifying the results of the means of grace. That's all it is that the means of grace have normal slower process and in revival there is an intensification of zeal for God, of affection, of holiness, and then out of that comes an awakening. when the Spirit works to draw others unto Christ. But what happened in the early 19th century is that when people like Finney and others saw revival, and some of the manifestations of revival, they thought if we create the manifestations, we can create revival. And so revival became something that people created, and revivalistic methods. And so in the South, where I have lived most of my life, A lot of our churches have revivals, and so they're saying that on November the 3rd through the 10th, we're going to have a revival. What they mean is you have a meeting for revival, and usually those meetings are all manipulative and revivalistic. So because of that, some Reformation-based people have a very bad response to the concept of There's also, perhaps in the last few decades, been an emphasis on proper revival at the expense of the normal means of grace. So, I think that we should begin with a commitment always to the normal means of grace, which normally are the ways that God operates. And we commit ourselves prayerfully to those things, and we're pleading with God to bless those means. But then it ought to be our desire, because we see revivals in Scripture, and we see we're taught in Scripture how to pray for the promises to the church that God has given, that we should pray for reformation and revival. You know, we're celebrating the Reformation. It was basically a revival. That's how Reformation occurred. So I agree with you, now at Greenville Seminary we talk a lot about proper revival, we pray for revival, our graduates as they pastor pray for revival, and the prayer meeting we pray for revival. I think we should do more, but not to idealize it, and not to take away from our regular daily work is the means of grace. If God sees fit to intensify those results, we bless his name, pray that he will. My own eschatological conviction is that sometime there's going to be a great revival and reformation and the nations of the earth are going to be Christian. And so obviously we pray, and I think probably, I don't know what percentage, but some good portion of our faculty here holds that same position. So obviously we pray for revival. Now there's one other segment in Reformation churches that's anti-revival, because it's also anti-personal piety. And they look on revival as too subjective. And they objectify the means of grace to such an extent that there is a de-emphasis on, I think, the affections and the will. And I think we have to guard against that as well. Dr. Piper, what resources would you point somebody to who had an interest in the doctrine of revival, so to speak, and wanted to study it further? A good place to start would be Ian Murray's revival and revivalism, and then through him, You can see the errors. By the other hand, he'll be resourcing the books and the people that God has used in the history of the church and revival. And that reminds me, to our listeners who know Dr. Henry Krobandom, please keep him in prayer. He had open heart surgery a couple of weeks ago, and he's doing well, but he's being held down at the hospital for the next couple of weeks, which, if you know him well, you know how difficult that might be to do, because he was a flying Dutchman before Joel Beacon. He was the Flying Dutchman, always in the air, traveling around the world. But Dr. Kramadam was going to be with us later this month for a day of fasting and revival prayer. But we've had to postpone that with him, and so Dr. Shaw is going to be leading our time together. in that effort. As if you know Dr. K, he and Al Baker and others with Presbyterian Evangelistic Fellowship are very passionate about that. They go to churches and have days or even weeks of revival prayer, basically praying for what Dr. Piper has talked about, that is the intensification of the effects of the ordinary means of grace. not for some kind of emotional frenzy, but for that which is biblical and which is true. And again, so once a semester we have a day of prayer and fasting focusing on revival and reformation. There's also personal revival. It's interesting in Psalm 119, the prayers there are for the Spirit to quicken the psalmist and to revive him. And that's a daily thing in our lives. And it's really the same as being filled with the Spirit or led by the Spirit. We must have the Spirit's active involvement for the means of grace to be effective in our lives every day. The next question we're going to look at comes from Garen Tell, and Garen asks, Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul tells us that love believes all things in 1 Corinthians 13, 7. Should I believe everything a liar tells me? How should I deal with a liar, and what does Paul mean? No, you don't believe anything a liar tells you, even if he happens to palm the truth. once in a while. In the context here, as Paul's talking about love, it's patient, kind, not jealous, doesn't brag, not arrogant, doesn't act unbecomingly, does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. He's here talking about how we relate to one another. And many of us are very thin-skinned, and we jump to conclusions. And we get offended thinking that this Christian brother or sister meant to insult me. And we have to recognize, well, give them credit. No, they didn't mean to insult me. If they tell me that they didn't mean it in the way I took it, then I am responsible to believe what they say. And part of our forbearance then with one another in the body of Christ. But Paul is not saying here that if a person has a track record of lying, that you're to be naive. In fact, remember what he says about the Cretans in Titus chapter one. I think it's in chapter one. He says that all Cretans are liars. And he's now talking about a cultural model. It's not that every individual Cretan is a liar, but it's a cultural pattern. Of course, in our day of political correctness, we can no longer talk about cultural patterns. And when you recognize that a person is a habitual liar, and the Bible says that liars do not inherit the kingdom of God, then you have responsibility to be prudent and wise in dealing with that person. You know, in Titus, as Paul deals with this, he says, reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted. and sinning, being self-condemned. So we are not to be naive. Now, again, this is where church discipline and elder oversight come into play. Let's say, and I've dealt with situations like this, that a man has either been fooling with pornography or committed adultery, and he repents and confesses and submits to counseling and yet he does it again. He comes back to his wife again and says, I'm sorry, you know, I'm truly repentant. And we recognize with respect to pornography that that can be a life-dominating sin and a person can be truly sorry and be there slowly growing out of it. But in many of these cases, the I'm sorry is just cheap words, it's a lie. And it comes to a point where a wife, or if it's the other way around, the husband, would be naive to believe what they're being told. There has to be a track record of truthfulness before we begin to believe what a person who has habitually lied to us said. So no, this—and Paul's simply talking about giving the benefit of the doubt, not jumping to conclusions, esteeming others more highly than ourselves, not how we would respond to a liar. And if you look at the larger catechism's teaching on the ninth commandment, which is, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not lie. In the question 144 in the Westminster Larger Catechism, it asks, what are the duties required in the Ninth Commandment? And one of them is unwillingness to admit of an evil report. And then if you go to the next question, 145, what are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment? Similar language is used. It's holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproach from ourselves or complaint to others. And so... Not only are we not to believe liars, but we are to set ourselves against false reports and evil reports, as the Catechism describes it, and to really herald forth the truth going after falsehood, trusting that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church's advance, and thus the gates of falsehood will not prevail against truth's advance. So let's ask this last question from Sam Frane of Chestertown, Maryland. Hi, Sam, and thank you for your endorsement of the seminary on your video podcast, though I totally teed you up for it. He asks, what is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? And how do you interpret Hebrews 8, especially verse 11? My Reformed Baptist friends will go to this verse to prove exclusive credo baptism. Well, Sam, the main difference is spelled out for us in our Confession of Faith, the chapter on the covenant of grace, that it is one covenant, one unified covenant. But in the old covenant, it was couched more in terms of types and promises and shadows, whereas the new covenant, it's all fulfillment, but it's not a different covenant. So what does Peter say on the day of Pentecost? Now, repent, be baptized for remission of your sins, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and this promise is for you and your children. He's applying there the covenant principle of believers and their seed. And then he says, as many as who are far off. Now, that's a technical phrase to refer to Gentiles, but he wouldn't be saying, okay, you Jews, you can bring your kids with you, but no Gentiles, you can't bring your kids with you. Then you really would have had a divided church. Paul applies the principle in Galatians chapter 3. The seed is always spiritual, focuses in Christ, but then it's the elect. Paul is very clear that the church is Israel and that those who are in Christ are the seed of Abraham, and that seed language doesn't change from its context in Scripture. Now, Hebrews 11 is the The end of the quotation from Jeremiah chapter 31, which is the chapter of New Covenant promise, and that our Credo Baptist friends, particularly the Calvinistic ones, like to go to this chapter. And I would simply encourage you, I don't have time today, but Calvin's exposition of Jeremiah 31 is very useful. But let's just take this last promise that you referred to or to. in 811 of Hebrews. This comes out of Jeremiah 31. And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, Know the Lord. For all will know me from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. And let's start with verse 12. And what the writer's pointing out there is that animal sacrifices never did away with sin. There were signs that God would do away with sins in the Messiah, and people didn't trust the sacrifices, they trusted the Savior to come. But in Hebrews, it actually points out that the repetition of the sacrifices demonstrated that there was no full sacrifice. And so it's promised now the completion, and later in Hebrews, the writer applies that to the cessation of sacrifices. But then, not to have to teach Well, John gives us the full interpretation of that when he quotes it in 1 John chapter 2 verse 26. These things have I written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. Now listen to this. The anointing which you have received from him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about all things, and it's true, and it's not a lie, just as it has taught you abide in him. Now, the anointing here is the Holy Spirit, and that's what's being promised, obviously, from what John says. Because you have the anointing in you, this means you don't have a need for anyone to teach you. So the Spirit is the great teacher. And he's the one that's going to illumine truth to us. So again, Psalm 119, constantly asking God to teach us his word. And so obviously in the Old and New Testaments, teachers were needed. Preachers were needed. Mentors were needed. But the Spirit has been promised now to be the great illuminator It's an advanced work in the new covenant because he indwells us as the spirit of Christ, Christ is in us for wisdom, Christ is the treasure chest of God's wisdom and the spirit now who anoints us and is the seal of our salvation is the ultimate teacher. So there's no grounds here for saying that well they had To have teachers in the Old Covenant, we don't have to have teachers now in the New Covenant. Obviously, we do have to have teachers. We simply have the greatest teacher indwelling us. Amen. Thank you, Dr. Piper. We still have a few questions on our list, but we did address at least one question from everyone who submitted questions for this month, and we'll get to those other inquiries later on, perhaps next month. Our next podcast will, in fact, be December 4th at 2.30. That's our regular time and so you can tune in live or you can wait for the recording. A couple things I would recommend to you. I've been meaning to do this. These are not connected to the seminary in any way except peripherally or indirectly, but I would recommend that you subscribe to the Reformation Scotland weekly devotional that is published every Saturday. It's been a great blessing to me digging up treasure from the second reformation in scotland and bringing it uh... modern audiences and new digestible settings and i've really enjoyed that and then also uh... log college press which is a joint work of uh... one of our students is act dot sin and caleb uh... kanga loci and their bringing uh... sometimes scans sometimes new type settings of old uh... colonial and 19th century Presbyterian writings and bringing them to modern audiences. So if you have a love for historical theology, if you have a love of Presbyterianism or just biblical Christianity, I commend these resources to you. Reformation Scotland and Logg College Press. Well, we will go visit Dr. Smith and bring back hopefully glad tidings to you all. Until next time, this has been Confessing Our Hope, a podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Thank you for joining us. For more information about the seminary, please visit www.gpts.edu.