Welcome back to Pilgrim Talk Radio. With me today, the Canadian Destroyer. Crepler. No, this was different. You've been the Crepler, now you've been upgraded to the Destroyer. No matter what, it's good to be here with you, Lee. Oh, thanks. That's Reverend Darrell King's way. Upgraded to Destroyer. And then there's Scott, my friend Henry. He's just here. Scott Cunningham I'm just here. Darrell Bock Probably the one who's going to get destroyed by the time we get here. Scott Cunningham Probably. Darrell Bock Which would make for some good radio, by the way. Scott Cunningham It would. Darrell Bock In case we hit a lull. We, if you were with us last week, began to discuss what we understand when we confess in the Apostles' Creed that Jesus suffered. Right. And the necessity of that suffering. The necessity of that suffering. And the nature of that suffering. And we talked last week about why people avoid talking about the suffering. The efficiency and the sufficiency of that suffering. Boom. Boom. Nicely done. That's a nice good wrap up there. Now, I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to read questions. Darrell Bock Wait a second. Let me put a nice bow on it too. John Dickerson Do it. Go ahead. Darrell Bock All right there. It's good. John Dickerson All right. Question 37 of the Hatterberg Catechism. What do you understand by the word suffer? The answer is that all the time he lived on earth but especially at the end of his life he bore in body and soul. the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race in order that by his suffering as the only atoning sacrifice he might redeem our body and soul from everlasting damnation and obtain for us the grace of God righteousness and eternal life we are going to start off talking this week specifically about this phrase that he bore the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race but before we do that let me ask God a question Okay, go for it. I'm sure that many of our listeners, they have this question. Christ was forsaken of his father. Right, Scott? And he said, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Was he forsaken in his deity or in his humanity? It's the person of the Son of God who was forsaken. What's that mean? That means you're trying to divide him up. Can you make a distinction? Did he suffer in his divine nature? How is that possible? How is it possible for the divine nature to suffer? So was there a disruption of the eternal trinity? No. He suffered in his humanity. So in other words, this might be one of these things that is inexpressible. Well, what's understood as the hypostatic union of Christ, that in one person, fully God, fully man, there could never be a disruption of the triune God. He could never be separated from that essence of the Godhead. It is an impossibility. Otherwise, God would no longer be God. Because that's who God is. He's triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So he did suffer in his humanity. Did the deity die? The deity could not die. What died? The humanity died. So when Jesus, the things that he did not know, because he said he didn't know the day or the hour, in his humanity he did not know certain things. But in his deity, clearly he knew those things. And how that all worked together within the one person of Jesus Christ, he didn't have a problem with that. So I'm asking a question. that would presuppose, if you're able to fully answer it, would presuppose that you're able to plumb the depths, the unfathomable depths of God, his ways and his judgments. Yeah, I think we would call that comprehending. And to comprehend something is basically to draw a circle around it and to encompass it all. We can't comprehend that. All right. We can apprehend the things that are taught. So I just ask that question so that if the listeners are thinking, I can't wrap my mind around this, that's okay. Yeah, that's okay. I just, this is something that's beyond me. Yeah, that's a mystery to us. It's not a contradiction, but it's a mystery. And will we ever know? I don't know. I don't see anywhere in scripture where we're going to have all wisdom and knowledge when we go to heaven. So it's incomprehensible? It's beyond our understanding? Yeah, I think so. I know it is so in this life. Whether in next life, I don't know. So it just might be based upon something that God has revealed, not man discovering? Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to know. I was thinking about that since the last program. Yeah, you answered my question. Well, I'm glad. Now back to the subject matter today. Okay. Let me repeat the question. Having digressed, let me repeat the question so the listeners know that I was listening. You weren't listening. I'm going to repeat the question. I was listening. We're going to discuss this matter of the Lord Jesus Christ. bearing in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race. And what's the problem with that? Why is that such a significant thing that possibly could be misunderstood? Did Christ die for everybody? No, He died for those whom the Father had given to Him, for whom He laid down His life. The sheep. He delivered His people from their sin. Yeah, but that's understood that, you know, people we see at the football games, baseball games, John 3.16, for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, right? That whosoever believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. It's not just football games. Let's just go ahead, I'm in the mood to call out names. Let's talk about Rob Bell and his book, Love Wins. Everybody goes to heaven because Jesus died for everybody, the whole human race. Now, I like to hear that Lee's in the mood. I'm in the mood. He said he was in the mood for it. So what are the possibilities of Christ's death? For whom did Christ atone when he died? I think that probably the best one that's unanswered today is John Owen and his teaching on that. And he gives only three possibilities for that. And the three possibilities are either that Jesus Christ, when he was on the cross, he died for the sins, for all the sins of all men who would ever live in this world. That's one possibility. And therefore all are saved? Then all are saved. Because that would be the result, right? That would be the consequence of that. The second one would be that Christ on the cross, he died for some sins of all men. And therefore, it's left to men then to contribute to that, right? And therefore, salvation would be predicated upon man doing his part. Well, what would be some of the sins that he didn't die for then? Well, that's the question. Sin of unbelief? Well, that's the third one. That Christ died. But see, there's the contradiction, right? The third one would be that Christ died for all the sins of some men. And therefore, all of their sins of this particular group of individuals have been atoned for by the work of Jesus Christ. And he makes the comment that if number one is true, then everybody's saved. If number two is true, then you could actually go to heaven being an unbeliever. Because if Christ died for your sins, some sins, maybe it's the sin of unbelief that he died for, then you could actually go to heaven being an unbeliever. See? So that doesn't make sense. Nobody believes that. I mean, even those that are contrary to Reformed theology would say that there is limitations in this sense you must believe. Because as soon as you say that, if Christ died for the sins, I think that going back to the Old Testament and recognizing what the sacrifices did, and when the high priest imputed to the goat and sent him away, that was an imputation of all the sins of the people there. And so there was a symbolism of complete atonement there. Wasn't there just the possibility? No, it wasn't. It was an actuality. And so it's actually demonstrated through that that all the sins were imputed, and they were driven away from the camp never to return to them again. And so that all of their sins— And those Old Testament sacrifices foreshadowed Christ's work? Yeah. Signs, symbols, they signified the work of Jesus Christ. Okay. I'm just trying to follow the conversation. No, you're following. Okay, good. And so, what we believe as reform and hold to the confessions of this church. Is that the issue we're dealing with here, this phrase, the whole human race and reformed Calvinistic theology? Which is just a nickname, as C.H. Spurgeon said. Biblical Christianity. He's just way ahead of you on the quotes. This is a school that we come from. This is our presupposition. This is what we hold to be true, that Christ did not die for everybody. The Bible nowhere teaches that. The Bible teaches that he died for his sheep. And it's popular to hear that Jesus died for everybody, that Jesus died and he loves everybody and he wants everybody to be saved. Is that what the Bible says? The Bible says that he died for his sheep? Reverend Kingswood, why don't you show us some places in the Scripture where he says that? Reverend Kingswood Well, I'm just listening to Scott here and enjoying it and, you know, just kind of playing the active listener. I'm telling you. John's Gospel. Let's hear from somebody. John chapter 10. John chapter 10 there. See, Reverend Henry, he's all over it. Thankfully somebody is here. Yeah, exactly. You're going to get demoted back to the cripple. Verse 11, John 10, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. That's who he died for. He gives, I am the good shepherd and I am known by my sheep and I know my sheep and I am known by my own. And as the father knows me, even so I know the father and I lay down my life for the sheep. And he says that there are other sheep of this fold, which are not of this fold, them too I must bring in. There'll be one foal, one shepherd, they will hear my voice, and there'll be one flock and one shepherd. And Jesus told the Pharisees that, you know what, you don't hear my voice because you're not on my sheep. If you were on my sheep, you would hear my voice and you would follow me, but because you're not on my sheep, you don't hear my voice. Ephesians chapter two, Paul says that Christ died for the church. Christ died for those who were given to Him, John chapter 6, from before the foundation of the world. So there is an amount of humanity that the Scriptures teach which are no better than anybody else. But in God's good purpose and pleasure, He has determined an elect or a chosen group of individuals to save, to have His Son saved, atoned for, live a perfect righteousness, impute that to them in exchange for their sins being imputed to Him, Him dealing with it once for all time on the cross, never to be repeated again. But that choice must be based at least on some foreseen thing that we've done. No, it's not foreseen faith. It's not looking down the tunnels and corridors of time. Some work of righteousness, even if it's just that Work of faith, that's the work of Christ. If it was, let's say that it was, okay, then this would have to be true, that God loves us because we first loved Him. But that's not what it says. We love Him because He first loved us. It also, this can't be true because... There you go, quoting the Bible all the time. Because Jesus said that it's the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. And if I have a little bit in me that enables me to turn and make a choice for Christ, apart from the working of the Spirit of God... And the flesh does profit. Profits everything. Profits everything. But isn't it the case that people are not his sheep because they just won't believe? No, he says, because you're not my sheep, you don't believe. It's the other way around? It's the other way around. And who makes sheep? And just so people know, they can look it up, John 10, verse 26. There you go. Jesus said that. And he gives eternal life to his sheep right in there, about verse 27. So you're kind of like if people, the readers are familiar there with James Montgomery voice. He once preached a sermon called Jesus the Calvinist. And you can find that in his sermons on John's Gospel if you're looking for it. Excellent. There you go. Why don't we stop here and we'll come back and talk some more after the break. Welcome back from Pilgrim Talk Radio. We are discussing the suffering of Christ, and specifically how he suffered in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race. And we've been talking about whether that means that everyone is saved, that Christ died for everyone, or did he die simply for the elect and the sheep, and things like that. We've heard from Reverend Henry, and we've even had Reverend Henry grilled by Reverend King's grill. Now we're going to flip the tables. Why don't you tell us what this phrase means? Tell you what it means? Or discuss it within the context of the teaching of Scripture. Are those two things really different than telling us what it means and discussing it? Well, no, in the context of the discussion about, you know, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Right? That's right. So God's done what he is able to do. And now, on the basis of John 3.16, it's up to man to believe. Isn't that what John 3.16, I mean, let me quote it again. No, I'm going to. No. Here we go. It simply says whoever does A receives B. It gives absolutely no inkling of what ability man has to believe. What are you talking about, Willis? That's found in other portions of Scripture. So you're saying John 3.16 doesn't teach us anything about the ability or inability of man to believe. It's just simply the syllogism of whoever does A receives B. OK. All right. Reverend Henry doesn't know how this works. You flip the tables right back on him, and it's just you grilling him again. Counter moves. This is unbelievable. You've got to have counter moves. This is so sad. Yeah. You've got to have counter moves. He played hockey. He knows how to cheat. Yeah. You know how to slip a check, man. He comes into the corner. He's going to try to hit me. Boom. Next thing you know. People don't know how I lost my teeth. Well, they'll know how. They're sticking on my elbow pad. Anyways, we digress on that subject. But those who are listening in Canada would appreciate the Hawkie reference. Sure. No, they wouldn't, but whatever. Oh, no, they will. Okay. I just stared them down, people. I see that. But anyways, we're discussing, taking these scripture passages, and some people will read. I mean, I know of the small town that I minister in, a minister that was in another church that held to the Heidelberg Catechism supposedly, and who would point to this statement here in the Heidelberg Catechism with regards to the whole human race. and say there it teaches, it teaches that Jesus died for each and every single solitary individual who has lived, who is living, who ever will live. And so it was a person who supposedly was a reform minister who was Arminian in their approach and using the Heidelberg Catechism to say look at the Catechism teaches an Arminian gospel. Now, how do they reconcile the three forms of unity where the canons of Dort are completely contrary to that interpretation? We didn't talk about reconciling. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. What did you say? That's what I thought. That's what I thought. So that's what we're dealing with here is in this context of the Scriptures teaching clearly. Like, for example, in John chapter 6 where Jesus says, all that the Father gives me, will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me. This is the will of the Father who sent me, that of all He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise Him up at the last day." All that the Father gives me will come to me. And those whom, and Jesus, as Reverend Henry has quoted from John chapter 10, Jesus says, those who the Father gives him are those for whom he gives his life. He lays down his life for the sheep. The sheep are those whom the Father has given to him. The sheep are those whom the Father, as Paul said, are chosen in Christ Jesus from before the foundation of the world, right? Who are predestined So let me ask you this. I think this is another logical question that many of our listeners may have. How then is you to, as ministers, can you stand up and offer people, if you repent and believe, you can be saved? If Jesus only died for some people, how can? Because that is in God's sovereign, that's His sovereign prerogative. That's not my business who the elect are. The call of the gospel is repent and believe. Trust in the Lord Jesus. I have no idea who the elect are. But God does. And as Paul says, known to God alone are His elect. So He knows His people. And even as Paul was in Corinth, he says, I have many elect people here in this city. So, you know, that's God's doing. And it's simply for us to preach the gospel and to call all men everywhere to repent and turn to Jesus Christ. I'd like to read just a portion of the Canon to Dort, the first head of doctrine, Article 7, the election, because this is what we're talking about here. We're talking about the election and the predestinating work of God, which is, predestination is election and reprobation. Because He elects some and He reprobates others. For one, I don't hold to what the doctrine of preterition that just God just passes over. God actively chooses those whom He's going to save and also those who He's going to damn. So there are vessels of mercy. Is that what you're saying? In Romans 9, there's vessels of mercy. Are you saying that there are vessels of wrath? Yeah. Well, that's what the Lord says in Romans 9, right? And if God says it, that settles it. But isn't it important, you know, really, isn't it, if God says it, I believe it, that settles it? No. As John Gerstner used to say, you can't get that on a bumper sticker. I've seen it on a bumper sticker. I also saw a guy who said that Jesus was his co-pilot, which I ain't getting on that airline. I don't care if they check my bags for free. You know, you can take out that middle phrase, if God said it, that settles it. That's right. Whether you believe it, that's irrelevant as far as whether or not it's true. It's not irrelevant when it comes to your salvation. because if you don't believe the word, you're damned. But the Canons of Dorrit say this, a certain number of persons to redemption in christ whom for he from eternity appointed the mediator and head of the elect and the foundation of salvation this elect number though by nature neither better nor deserving than others but with them involved in one common misery god has decreed to give to christ to be saved by him and effectually to call and draw them to his communion by his word and spirit and to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification, and having powerfully preserved them in this fellowship of his Son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of his mercy, for the praise of the riches of his glorious grace. And it's to them and to them alone that God does this work of salvation in his Son, Jesus Christ. That means the work of Christ is an actual atonement. When He died, He actually died for the sins of all those who were given to Him once for all time, never to be repeated again. So it's really finished. And that's what He said on the cross. Absolutely. It is finished. You can't hold to one of those other John Owen positions that you were saying, for example. No, you can only hold to the one and be consistent with Scripture. You can only hold to one. If you hold to the one where He died for some of the sins... Why don't you tell the listeners what that one... Yes, clearly articulated. The only position that the Bible teaches is that Jesus Christ, in His death, He died for all the sins of some men. those who were given to him. Let me ask you this question. Chosen from the whole human race. From amongst the whole human race. And that's what Revelation says, right? From every tribe, tongue, and nation of the world. So it's a representation of the whole human race. The whole human race as represented by the different tribes, nations, tongues, are going to be redeemed in Jesus Christ. So he's not just a Jewish Savior? No. He doesn't just save Americans? Well, we know that the blessings of Abraham come upon the Gentiles, and that's why Christ was made a curse for us on the cross. Now, let me ask you this. Was Judas given to Christ? No. No, he was the devil from the beginning. That's what Jesus said, right? Absolutely. He's the son of perdition. But who chose him? Jesus chose him. But how do we know that he was not given to Jesus? Because in the end, how do we know? I mean, other than the fact that Jesus a couple times tells us he's the devil. Oh, okay, so we don't know. That's it, huh? Boy, Jesus told me. We've got other reasons. Darrell Bock This is not an Alpha Fortiori argument here, brother. Wait a second, I think Nick is writing down a couple of them. Gary Barnes In the end, he turns his back on Christ and doesn't believe. As John would say, he went out from us to show that he was not of us. Darrell Bock And now what about Peter? How do we know that Peter was given to Christ? Because in the end, he was restored and Jesus prayed for him. Yeah, that his faith would not fail. So we know, and so how could it be that Christ died for all sins? If you make that statement, you have to be able to substantiate your understanding of an atonement from the Old Testament Scriptures and what that atonement meant. It didn't mean that this sacrifice was given and now you have to do your part, and as long as you do your part, you're going to be saved. It doesn't say that at all. That's God's mercy and grace that He gave us, Savior. Now, we see with Peter really clear in John 6, don't we? Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. Many turn and walk with him no more. And he looks at his disciples and he says, you also going to go away? Peter says, where are we going to go? You have the words to eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Christ of God. And so that's what the believer does. The believer abides. And Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, John 8, if you abide in my word, then you are my disciples indeed and you will know the truth. And to abide is to set you free. No, make you free. None of these have quotes. Well, and also this, we are freed, but we are, judicially, we have been freed in Christ. And in sanctification, there is a sense we are being freed. And in glorification, we will be freed. So the three tenses there of being freed. Right. Salvation, past, present, and future. And even in terms of the freedom. and freedom from the enslaving power of sin. That's a reality right now. We are free. Well, let me ask you this question about alcohol. Is alcohol evil? In and of itself, alcohol? Right. No. Okay. But that is a common understanding of many people in the evangelical world. Although Jack Daniels might be. How about Charlie Daniels? Well, yeah. Absolutely. That would be a common understanding of many in the evangelical world, that alcohol is evil. With the demon alcohol. Well, drive him out, right? You know what I'm talking about. So isn't it that we talk about things like the demon of lust and the demon of alcohol, and then all of a sudden guns are evil and this is evil. These are inanimate objects. How can they be evil? The only thing that can be evil is a moral object, a moral creature. Dogs can't be evil. Cats can't be evil. You mean like a creature created in God's image? Right. But you could have. Man? Well, but angels also. The human race? The whole human race? Right. Okay. So you've lost my train of thought here. You know what? You were talking about cats being evil. It's not hard to derail you. No, that cats are not evil. Oh, I'm sorry. I misheard that. So alcohol, I asked you that question about alcohol being evil. And it's very common in the evangelical world to say that alcohol is evil. So if someone has a beer or has a glass of wine, all of a sudden they're unspiritual. They're unsaved. Yeah, they must be unredeemed to drink a beer or an alcohol. What kind of beer is it? Oh, God. Oh, wow. It's not Budweiser, is it? Let me wrap it up. You need to be quiet. It's not the alcohol that's evil. And when you're taught through the Word and by the Holy Spirit that truth that Jesus created wine. and that it's not evil, and that God gives these things to be enjoyed by those who believe and know the truth, then you're freed from that lie of the world. And that's a progressive thing in the life of the Christian. So that's why I think we, as believers, we need to be patient in long-suffering. But money's evil, isn't it? Or could it be the love of money? Your questioning is evil. No, it's not. It's again, that thing. A lot of people think money's evil. It's the love of money that is the root of all evil. The love of money, that misplaced affection, there's the issue. And even with alcohol, that's a thing. What are you looking for in that alcohol? Well, in everything. Sex. God created sex and he created a good in the confines of marriage. As John Cougar Mellencamp would say, sex, drugs, and rock and roll, this is serious business. We're out. Okay, yeah, just join us again next week, 660 KTRO.