We're going to be looking after our families and taking care of our children and all of that. But we're not, I trust, bringing up our children in such a way as to keep them forever dependent on us. That would be the perennial nightmare, I think. We want our children, rather, to be developed in such a way as they rise up and they take up their responsibilities and they begin to fly and they begin to move out and they begin to live in the world we trust and pray for the glory of God. But the reality is that within all of us then is this subtle danger of paternalism. What we're really thinking through here in regards to material poverty is that we must not do things for people that they can do for themselves. And we need to work this out, we need to think this through. It's not an easy thing at times to know what we ought to do. So for example, being from a materialistic culture, as we are, I was watching a documentary on the Second World War as I sometimes do. I haven't watched one for a while actually but I was watching one yesterday about the Second World War and some of the figures that they were thrown up regarding just the deaths again just struck me as shocking but one of the things that was very interesting was how The United States rose from like the 16th or the 15th world superpower, or superpower, or not even superpower, just power in the world, to number one at the end of the Second World War. And the economic transformation that the war brought to America in particular was huge. Very interesting that the most amount of people killed in the war were from the Soviet Union. That was very interesting. America's casualties in the Second World War were actually quite small. in comparison with some of the other powers. And yet America soared to the top of the economic scale and began to, in many ways, develop what we now really call globalization. And a very interesting study all on its own. And so as a result, here we are in North America and we are in the top 2% of the world's wealthiest people. We have to realize that, brothers and sisters. That's a sobering thing to consider. In terms of material prosperity, we are right in the front seat with regards to the judgment of God. Not only the blessing from God, but the judgment from God, because to whom much is given, much will be required. We have to realize this. We have to take this seriously. If we have grace at all in our hearts, it should cause us to have to pause and think. And so being from a material culture like we are in North America, we can often view the solution to poverty in material terms alone, and tend to just want to pour in financial and other material resources into the situation. And we see that. The thing that dominates our media is often just the whole issue of money. and material resources. And we have to be careful as we think about this from a biblical perspective. The real secret is that we need to have local people steward their own resources. How are we going to do that? Well the only way we're going to begin to do it is by building relationships with them and we've talked about this issue, having relationships. We've got to consider what this will look like at home and abroad. There are implications for the church with regards to poverty alleviation with regards to our money. What do we do with our money? One of the things that we can be doing is looking for agencies that really do alleviate poverty biblically and we can invest and support them. They're not all in the local church. I don't think that the local church alone is expected to alleviate all material poverty. We should be playing our part in it. We can be doing that corporately, we can be doing that individually, but we've got to work this out with regards to resources especially. You've got money, I've got money, what do we do with that money? OK? We need some of that money to be living on ourselves, but we also should be looking to use that money, as Ephesians tells us, to help others. And we need to realize, brothers and sisters, as we probably will at different points in our life when God brings providential circumstances upon us, you can be sure you brought nothing into this world and you ain't taking anything out of it. So, what are you going to do with your money? One of the challenges that Spurgeon brought into my life a number of years ago, reading his life, was he had a very healthy salary from his church, because it was a big church. They reckon he was earning something like £20,000, £25,000 a week in the middle of the 1800s. Well, you consider the reality of that. Some people are only earning that now, right? But when he died, when he died, he had a total estate of £2,000. But he had built orphanages. He had built a theological training college that trained 800 pastors. He had been involved in the distribution of Christian literature all over the world. The reality is that, point being, he used his wealth for the gospel. And he gave it away. So that when he died, he wasn't going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ with a huge amount of money sitting in the bank that he'd never used. And the Lord's going to ask him, why? And he was going to say, well, that was for the rainy day. the rainy day never came so we never used the money more things could have been done you see we've got to reckon with us we've got to work this out so we've got to be careful about resources paternalism we don't bring people dependent upon us but we want to use our financial resources for the furtherance of the gospel but there's other forms of paternalism that i want us to think about and i think particularly this might be one for those of us who are pastors or for those of us who are preachers that can be a problem but I think it can also be one that can be a danger to those of us who are reformed in our understanding of the scriptures. Spiritual paternalism. Many of us assume that we have a lot to teach the materially poor about God and that we should be the ones teaching and preaching. That can be a real danger because the poor have a lot to teach us. about what it really means to depend on God, what it really means to trust God. You know, if you've got 10, 15, 20,000 in the bank, it's easy to say you're trusting God with your money. You've got nothing in the bank. You've got to really know what it is to trust God in a way that others can easily see it, but not really know it. And so we've got to be careful here, brothers and sisters. This has been an interesting thing for me to think through in recent days, particularly regarding how we're involved in missions. We do have much to share, there's no doubt about that. I am personally persuaded that the English people speaking group, okay, because this is how they talk about it missiologically today, right, it's about language groups, it's about ethnic groups, how many are there in the world? The English speaking people group, okay, to which most of us are native, okay, is the most singularly blessed people group in the history of the church. and have produced in many ways the most amount of literature, Christian literature in the history of the church. That is a remarkable reality that any figures that we would study would not disprove, they would only uphold. Again however, what does it mean? Too much is given, much will be required. Not only are we right in the front line for the judgment of God regarding what we do with our material wealth, we're right in the front line with what we do with our knowledge. And brothers and sisters, this is critically important to understand. We have been given immense resources, right? We do have much to share out of our knowledge and experiences, but don't forget that the materially poor can have an even deeper walk with God and have insights and experiences that we need to learn from too. So we have to be careful here. And I think some of us know this, maybe some of us are learning this and others haven't maybe discovered it yet, but head knowledge is not identical to spiritual experience and spiritual depth. Head knowledge doesn't make you spiritual in and of itself. You can know a lot in your head and be practically useless. You can. And we have to realise this, brothers and sisters. That's why most of us, as we've grown up as Christians, have realised, you know, we got doctrine and theology early in some propositional ways, which was good and helpful, but we also realise that we took a long time to catch up with our hands and our feet and our hearts, didn't we? I mean, I believe that. I'm convinced of that. And the older I get, the more convinced I am. It's not like it's going the other way, right? It's like, this is absolutely true, isn't it? You can have a lot of head knowledge and be practically useless. And you can be practically very useful and not have so much head knowledge. You're just willing to serve. You're just willing to do whatever needs to be done. You've just got a humble heart. You're just willing to give yourself away in whatever needs to be done. And brothers and sisters, this is really important to understand. This is really important to understand because it will affect how we relate to people. If we think it's just about giving them theology, now don't misunderstand me, you know me well enough, you know I believe theology matters, right? But if it's just about giving them head knowledge, then we haven't understood the gospel. It's about having them have transformed hearts, transformed character, transformed lives. Now it's true, that won't happen without knowledge. But it's more than knowledge, it's about more than knowledge. So we have to be careful here. Okay? Let's discuss it for a minute or two. What are some of the dangers you've seen, even in your own Christian experience, your own life? Right? And even right now, as you're in transition, you're developing, you're growing, I trust you are, right? The reality of this, right? You know, you get people who say, I just read a book on the five points of Calvinism, that means I am now really mature. That's a disaster. But that's how it sometimes happens, that's how it sometimes works. Anybody experience this? Ray? She started to share with me how the Lord was ministering to her and sustaining her in her time of need. And she was just rattling Bible verses left and right about how God was faithful and true to her and how God loved her and how she was lacking nothing. Sure, I was holding a bag of bread ready to give it to her, but when she started doing that, that reality of spiritual paternalism, it really cracked my heart, because I felt like she was preaching to me. And I always said, well, I don't really think you need this bread. She said, well, I have everything I have in the Lord. And she felt very satisfied and happy, even in her poverty. And that reality just really felt guilty. And I mean, we were still developing that thing. Sure. We still are, bro. It's funny how that issue of spiritual paternalism, that we have all this theological knowledge, doctrine, and we think we're better than other people because God has blessed us So what's that? What's the problem, Lee? One word. Right, one word. Well, that's true, but what's the problem with us? It could be a lack of love, that's true, but what's the real core issue? Right, one word. George. Right! That's it! We're proud, aren't we? There's an element... it's pride in our hearts, isn't it? I don't know about you, but one of the things that, you know, even looking at this whole issue of the wiles of the devil, and I thought, you know, it'd be good to preach a series of the wiles of the devil as a kind of sub-series to my Ephesian series, but one of the subtle things is that the Lord can take what is good. I mean, the devil can take what is good, and he can twist it. And even something as glorious as the truth can be actually made to be something as a source of pride in our hearts if we're not actually walking in humility and the challenge for us is we can become proud and haughty and head and the bible of course warns against us but nevertheless I think all of us have experienced this to a certain degree and it's part of our sanctification is realizing you know God gives grace to the humble but he resists the proud and we can take truth and we can become proud with it and we're not understanding it properly of course we're not appropriating it properly but nevertheless it happens we've all experienced that and so this is the challenge for us brothers and sisters paternalism has many different manifestations it's not just a resource paternalism it can be a spiritual paternalism we think that we've got it all together and we've got to teach them and they've got you know to learn from us now it's true we have a lot to share there's no doubt but we've got to make sure Right? That we go in with a respectful spirit. That we're going to, to your point Ray, learn from them what the Lord has for us. And we can learn some very important lessons about humility, about faith, about love. Oh wow, are these things the fruit of the Spirit? Interesting, isn't it? Yeah, they are the fruit of the Spirit. We can learn these critical things from those that we're seeking to reach. And we must be open to that reality. We must be not just going in with an attitude that's a one-way street. Because here's the reality for us, brothers and sisters. Life is never a one-way street. Even though we forget that. We tend to think we're always driving on one-way streets. And it's always the way I'm going. Right? But it needs to be two-way street. Are we learning from those that we're ministering to? India? And we read the Bible together, and she has her thoughts about what we'll be reading through in a book. And she'll ask me questions, and so I'll try to answer the best that I understand and think on my own reading and her. So it's a balance between speaking as if I'm an authority, which I'm not, and then I'm trying not to be patronizing. I'm trying to be honest, as far as my ministry and all that. But it's hard. It's hard not to think, OK, well, I'm doing a good job. I got the answer right. She's different from what I had to say. It's hard not to think, oh my gosh, you're wrong. This is why you're wrong. It's not about that. You've got to stick to what the Word says. No, I appreciate that, Andrea, that's a living dynamic that you're expressing that I think all of us at certain levels have experienced, you know, and what are you doing in that kind of situation where, you know, we've got to deal with our own flesh as we minister, and that's really what this is about, right? The flesh, we carry it with us, it's always present, right? John Owen the Puritan said it's like a terrorist. It's always lurking, ready to rise up and attack when we don't expect it. And we've got to learn how to be mortifying our flesh in ministry, right? Even as we're engaging with people. Because very often, and we know this, don't we? I've known this from my experience with Jehovah's Witnesses coming to my door. I can win the argument and lose the soul. So what profit did it make? Well, I'm really pat myself on the back. I really have got the ability to win the argument. But what is winning the argument when the soul is lost? And so you've got to work that out in your context, in my context, and we've got to work it out with humility and humble dependence upon the Spirit of God, humble dependence upon the Lord to help us, that even when we maybe become paternalistic or patronize in a similar kind of idea, that we own that. We are honest with people and we say, forgive me, I was guilty. Well, if I maybe possibly did, No, if the person is feeling that you were patronizing or you know, you've got to be willing to own that and then just have a humble heart. God gives grace. And you see here, if we're walking in the freedom of the gospel, the true freedom of the gospel, right? You already know that you're guilty of sin. Right? So you should be able to own that. Right? And not worry about, you know, Jesus already loves you. He's not going to change his love for you. The challenge for us is our flesh will Tempt us to think, oh, now you're going to have a disconnect with God, God's going to disapprove. And then, oh, the devil's going to whisper in your ear, I see, you're not really a Christian, or you're pathetic, or whatever it might be. No, we've got to understand our foundation in Christ. And then we've got to be willing even to own our sin in those situations and keep working through. Remember what we said, it's not about programs and projects. It's about people and processes. So a process of relating to them. And so her seeing your integrity, her seeing your humility displays grace before her, as well as information regarding the truth of the gospel. And I think sometimes what we tend to do is disconnect those two. So as long as we dispense the information, we don't think of the actual dynamics of our character involved in it. It's not either or, it's both and, and there's a biblically important connection we must maintain as we relate to people. But your experience in there is exactly the challenge that we all face. It's exactly the challenge. The problem is that this doing is not what we do, it's why we do something. So, I mean, it's a heart issue. And the thing, one of the dangers is that we look out and we see all that needs to be done, and you can almost be overwhelmed, and Satan will tell you, well, you know, it doesn't make any difference. So what you have to do is to say, you know, you have to say, well, these are the areas that, you know, I can minister, That's it. That's right, Joe. That's right. Amen. Right. Right. Right. Right. Which the devil would love to happen, too. And that's the challenge for us. And that's why cultivating on a daily basis our own walk with the Lord, figuring out what the Lord has for us in our small little sphere of life, is what it's really all about. And it may be that you only reach one person. It may be that you only build a relationship with your neighbor or whatever. Others have got wider opportunities. And again, even in terms of work and in terms of spheres of influence, God gives that to us. Our job is to walk with a good conscience before the Lord and before men. Chuck? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It can be. Absolutely, Joe. The world is lost and perishing. And we have to realize that. We can't save everybody, but we've got to do what we can to just honor the Lord. That's it. Go ahead, Chuck. Sometimes I think I see a prideful attitude when I listen to music. I hear a song by somebody and I don't know who it's by. And it matters to me whether they're Calvinistic or not sometimes. Well, this can't be a good song because it's not by somebody that I would recognize. Right. And yet it might minister to my soul. Right. and there's that element of pride springing up that says if they don't believe the same things as I believe, they can't really make this music. The carnal reality of how could Charles Wesley write such a great hymn and not be a Calvinist? That's how pathetic my heart is, I'm just being honest, that's the reality of it. But I love Wesley's hymns, and this is the challenge. So what are the implications for the church at this level? Because this is really We've got to get down to this, in terms of the implications for us as we minister. There's got to be discernment, absolutely. Neil? being able to engage where they're at. You know, I'm going through, I don't know if you've heard of Rosaria Lutterfield. She's a, she was, it's a great, she was a Syracuse, look, she was a Syracuse liberal lesbian. Her major was, was a queer, queer, queer. So. There are majors in such things? Wow. Oh, this is the woman whose wife, the pastor's wife, or the pastor wrote to her and was very gracious. Right. Yeah. And she was converted. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Right, right. Well, you've got to know yourself, Neil, whether you're capable of that, you know. Dive in where angels fear to tread. Yeah, amen. Amen. I think the burden for me as a pastor is that we as a church would see the tendencies to spiritual paternalism that exist amongst us, right, we have to be honest, and we would seek to mortify them. So what does that look like to your very point, Neil, people coming to Emmanuel for the first time, the issue is not What do you believe? The issue is who are you? And how can we help you? Get to know people. And I think that there is a propensity for us to want to jump to stage 4 and 5 in our relationship before we've even worked through 1, 2 and 3. And I think we've got to learn this. Now we're going to be, depending on where we're at, depending on how much understanding we've got, depending on the different gifts the Lord has given us, we're going to be better at it or less good at it than others and all that. The climate of our congregation has to be that we are committed to mortifying spiritual paternalism in our hearts. Just as much as the resource paternalism. And to your point, when we learn of illustrations like that, there is things for us to learn. Because we all know that there are situations that we've had in our lives where trying to reach someone has foundered a big part in part because of how we approached it. not wild or unregenerate. They don't have the spirit. We know that's true. But the way we went about it was like a bull in a china shop. And that had a massive impact on the fact that we didn't relate to the people. And this is the real challenge for us. I'm persuaded that we can bring persecution upon ourselves not for righteousness, but for stupidity. And I'm convinced that there are some Christians just don't seem to get this. I mean there's an incident right now and some of you might have seen it on Facebook but there was a guy in Scotland got arrested for preaching in the open air. I actually happened to know him. He unfriended me on Facebook because I challenged him about stuff he put up on Islam when the soldier was killed in London and how he was talking about Muslims and I'm thinking you're going to get yourself killed, right? Because you've just been foolish. What's really been interesting, and you guys probably haven't been following it because you're not Scottish and I follow these things, but there's been a real, it's been on the national news, a guy got arrested one day by the police and then the next day he went back and started preaching again. But he was arrested for breach of the peace. He wasn't arrested for preaching the gospel, but he claims he was arrested for preaching the gospel. But the point I'm making is, he believes he's been persecuted for righteousness sake, but there's a number of us thinking he's been arrested for stupidity. The reality is that we've got to know the difference. And if we don't, we're going to bring persecution upon ourselves and opposition to us and at times in ways we don't need it. Now, that's not to say we mustn't be naive. The world is hostile. The world hates the gospel. We understand all of that. But nevertheless, we have got to walk in wisdom and we have got to walk in discernment. And we've got to really realise, you know, there are things that we will have to be persecuted for, but there are things we don't need to get into trouble about if we conduct ourselves. We are, Paul says, We're possible. It's not always possible, but we're possible. Live at peace with all men. Right? Blessed are the peacemakers. Now, there's a danger, because being a peacemaker, sometimes you can do a Neville Chamberlain, right? And if you know your history, you'll know who Neville Chamberlain was. He was the guy who came back from having met Adolf Hitler with his little piece of paper, peace in our time. And within no time at all, the Germans had gone in and invaded the Czech Republic. I think they basically had annexed the Sudetenland, and then basically the war started, right? Well, they had to replace Neville Chamberlain with a guy that had to fight the war, and that was Winston Churchill. But he appeased wickedness, which is not the same as standing against it with righteousness. And so we've got to realize that there is a danger even in being a peacemaker. The devil will have us compromised. But on the other hand, we don't want to be thinking we're standing boldly for righteousness when in actual fact we're really just being foolish. We've got to work these things out. The spirit and climate of our congregation, I'm convinced, What's coming to us in America is going to be challenging enough without us not having discernment and wisdom in how to relate and interact with people. And I think it's very important that we work this out. I don't have all the answers, but I believe that this is important. Ernie? the boys that relied upon the college did not really be aware of the dangers of that in their own life. So, for example, in the SOQ test, when we were taught and we embrace a certain theology and whatnot. We want to use it, you know, which is a good thing. But what happens all the time, it seems in my life, is I haven't really been qualified to deal with certain situations because The Spirit of God hasn't even dealt with those issues in my own soul, first and foremost. So, Jesus, for example, said, first remove the being out of your own mind, and then you can see clearly. And I think that that often times we don't learn that lesson. What we do is we get knowledge, we get these tools, and we're excited to apply it. And we, not intentionally, but we can make a mess of things. Amen. Amen. That's right. That is a brilliant point Ernie, what really the bottom line is the world knows authenticity when it sees it and it knows performing when it sees it and so the reality for us, the big issue for us and we're back to the very point we started with Ray we think we're qualified when in actual fact we may not be qualified You know, having your Bible and having the Spirit of God doesn't necessarily make you qualified for a given situation. And humility demands that we do not think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think, but think soberly. So, soberly looks like, you know what, this is beyond me. I need someone else who is more qualified to deal with this. to deal with the situation. And the challenge for us then, according to your point, is very often though, of course, life is moving forward and we get caught up in situations that we've got to try and deal with something somehow. But isn't it interesting that we may not stop to actually say something like this, you know, I really would like to help you on this, but I actually know someone who would be better qualified to deal with it. We tend to think, well, I've got the Spirit, I've got my Bible, You know, I'm five minutes in the kingdom, I've got all I need. No, wisdom should teach us, humility should teach us. It may be better to refer this person to someone who's got more ability to deal with that. Now, of course, we've got to be careful because life comes at us fast and we will make mistakes and we have to be willing to own that too. But the point being, brothers and sisters, humility, Humility. Humility. That is critically important. And I think this is an outworking of humility. Right. Right. And that's basically, are you being a hypocrite? Exactly. Were you going to ask me something, Paul? Right. Right. Right. Right. Well it's easy, anybody can throw a hand grenade. But to invest, and not only invest in a way that you're trying to help the people, but also invest in a way that you also endure the sins. You know, love covers a multitude of sins. That the relationships that we have are really gospel-based relationships. So that if I sin against you, you sin against me, we sort out, brother, forgive me. It's really behind us, we move forward, the relationship goes on. And that we know, by getting into this relationship, we're both still got remaining sin. And there will be times we will say things we shouldn't. There'll be times that we will do things we shouldn't. There'll be times we fail to do things we should. And we've got to have that commitment to one another. And I think very often we're not prepared to do that. Because really the bottom line is we're not believing the gospel and applying the gospel. Elaine. I totally agree with what Ernie said, but the question is how do you then balance that humility and realize, okay, I haven't had the experience of the Holy Spirit within certain matters that I can't help. Well, that's a good point. Right. Well I think we're not saying, when we get into this kind of arena, we're not saying absolutely you can't help. Right? We can always help people. But it's to the degree that we can help people, because some people's issues are very deep and very naughty issues. And again, the only way that will happen is if we get into relationships and we get to know people. And there are going to be things that will come up and we say, well, that issue is probably beyond me. But in other practical ways, you know, we can help people in spiritual regards. I mean, you can still pray with someone. You can still encourage them to be in the word. You can still encourage them just by doing something practically kind to them or good to them or helping them in some way or whatever. But maybe the deeper issues of the soul that start to come out in the relationship, you begin to realise either I'm going to have to really get myself to a place where I can understand this problem or I need to try and bring someone else in that can really help in this problem. So I think the challenge in this kind of discussion is that we don't always think in absolute categories. and we don't put everything into tight boxes. It's always fluid. But we will feel at different points that this issue now is a bit beyond me. I'm not really sure what to say to someone. And the danger can be that we can just hand out a placebo. We don't want to do that. We definitely want to. And so I think we can always help people, but we've just got to know our limitations to a certain extent. That's how I would say it. I think it helps us to be more compassionate, be more understanding, and be more effective when we're trying to grow something. Right, right. And so the bottom line is if we're walking with God in a sincere way and dealing with our own sin, right, we're going to be in a place where we won't behave hypocritically. But there will be issues also, I think there are issues that people have, struggles that people have, sins that people have, problems that people have, that we might not be so equipped to actually address. We may not know that until we're halfway into it. Then we realise, you know what, I need some help here, I'd better call for the cavalry or something like that. But the reality is we have to realise, the point being really that we need to be, to Joe's point, discerning. We need to be walking in wisdom and dependence upon God. We're depending upon the Lord, and not just head knowledge that we may have that's factual knowledge. We've got to actually be depending upon God to give us help and wisdom in regards to that. Let me keep pushing on, Brandon, because otherwise I'm not even going to get to my next little section. But anyway, knowledge paternalism. This occurs when we assume we have all the best ideas about how to do things. Of course, I do have all the best ideas about how to do things until someone else has a better one and I realise it. The problem is realising it, that someone has a better idea. We see this in our marriages, don't we? Husband's got an idea, thinks it's a brilliant idea, his wife comes in and asks the most practical question and he goes, I never thought of that. That's true, that completely changes the whole paradigm. That's life, right? But the materially poor can be treated as if they need us to do all their thinking for them. That must not happen. We must train and encourage people to think for themselves. Best ways to grow crops, for example, well we know. Best ways to build businesses, best ways to cure diseases. Now there's no doubt when it's foreign mission situations and we're going into cultures that are less developed, we have got a lot of knowledge and a lot of advanced stuff, but we've got to be very careful about how we dispense that, because it will become very paternalistic. Often we do have knowledge that can help, but we must not forget the materially poor have unique insights and ideas. They probably know better how to build things for their situation than maybe we do. They certainly know their soil better than maybe we do. And we've got to think of those realities. Well, if we take that from the farm and bring it home, we go into even neighbourhoods that we're not familiar with. They're going to know the nuances of the neighbourhood better than we do. They're going to know the dynamics of the culture better than we do. Don't assume that you know it. That would be arrogance. Reckon with the fact, actually we don't know, it's going to take time here to get to know this. I mean, I've been here 10 years and California is very different from Scotland and Northern Ireland. And I feel I'm still on a learning curve regarding the culture, the cultural sensitivities. The Lord has then brought in, you know, a bunch of Slavics, Andre and now I'm realizing, well, they've got a whole different culture even from the California culture, and there's other cultures here, and there's other cultures represented, Ray's culture, and Ernesto's culture, and Ernie and Dave's culture, and I'm realizing, whoa, this isn't just a one-size-fits-all situation. And we've got to be so careful, brothers and sisters, that we think we know that that's the case. People talk about American culture, the question I have is, what is American culture? Which one do you want to pick? Because we know that as soon as we raise that flag, No pun intended, but the reality is we're going to have all these different people arguing about what American culture actually consists of. And you know that. And you even have your own personal bias in that regard. And the fact of the matter is we have to work through this as God's people. Why? Because this is the place God has set us down to minister. And so we've got to think about it. We've got to work this out. It's going to take us time. And we mustn't think we know it all. We have all the answers. We have to be prayerful. We have to be studious. We have to be relational. And we have to be listening. And we have to be hearing. And we have to be learning from others. And that's the challenge for us, brothers and sisters. We have got a lot of work to do in this regard. But I'm convinced it's worth doing. I think it will bring glory to God. I think we will learn more how to be effective with the gospel in our generation. So, knowledge paternalism is there. Then there's even this issue of labour paternalism. This occurs when we do work for people who can do that work for themselves. A couple of illustrations that I read in the book were quite interesting. Hurricane Katrina, you remember it well. Loads of teams went down to New Orleans and Louisiana to help rebuild. And they were talking about how these teams all came in and the guys that were actually just as strong and maybe more muscular who lived there were just sitting around watching everybody else build for them. Well that ain't going to help them. You need to engage them and bring them into the process and actually help them to actually do it for themselves. And that way you help them to see, you know what, you guys can do things. You guys have worth, and that's a very important issue when dealing with the materially poor. The issue of worth and the issue of dignity. And actually encouraging them to work so that we don't do things that they can do for themselves. It's very important that we avoid that. And it's just like our own children, isn't it, in many ways? Think of the illustration at home, right? Yeah, when he's two, it's a good thing that you get him up and you dress him and you feed him and all this. But hey, when he's 14, you shouldn't be doing that. When he's 14 he should be dressing himself, washing himself, getting his own cereal ready, getting his own school bag ready, whatever he does, getting his books out, whatever. It'd be really weird. If you're doing that and your kid's 14, we need to talk. That kind of paternalism is a disaster. But that illustration helps us to see we mustn't do these things for those who can do it for themselves. We have to empower people to do it for themselves. And so we have to be careful, even the projects that we go in and get involved in. One of the things that I learned from the mission trip to Scotland and talking with MES, and we had talked about what we would do when we went there. And it's true, they could have done some of the stuff that we did, they could have done that, but there was an agreement that we would do certain stuff to free them up to do other stuff. And here's the point, because he told me this, there are a number of the teams that came across, they thought, we're here to win souls for Jesus, where are the souls? We want to go out and do this. And Mez made it clear, but you guys are not qualified to do it yet in this culture. And there was some tensions with other teams because they thought, well, we've got the gospel, just let us loose on the scheme. Meth said, well there's two possibilities, you'll either cause a riot or die. And it'd be better if you actually didn't either happen because we've got to live here after you leave. Okay? And so one of the reasons why we went in and did what we did, because we had discussions about this, I said to Meth, what would it be, what would be beneficial for you that would be a long-term benefit for your church? Because we don't live there. And so when we went, we did a lot of the mundane stuff. deep cleaning of the Mission Cafe, laying of concrete, painting. What did that free them up? That meant that when they got to the start of their new year, beginning of September, when all their clubs and their stuff gets back up for the kids and all the rest of it, they were not having to do that and the ministry. They just could launch back into the full-fledged ministry. So we were helping in an auxiliary way, right? It wasn't particularly glamorous for us, But we were only there for 10 days. We don't live in Scotland. We're not to reach that community with the gospel. We help them, then we come back and we learn things from that and we do that here. See, this is the point, that we've got to realise that when it comes to the issue of labour paternalism, we've got to be careful that we're not doing things for others that they could be doing for themselves. This even affects how we do foreign missions. This even affects what we get involved in in a foreign mission way. And we have to work this out. You land in a foreign culture and try to win them for Christ and you haven't taken much time to figure out the culture. You're going to have problems. You're going to have difficulties. And we've got to think this through. It's the very same at home here. We've got to think through the culture around us here. And then there's managerial paternalism. Middle class Americans love to see things getting done. as quickly and efficiently as possible. I thought, well that middle class Scotsman liked that too actually. Thus we are prone to take charge to get the job done. And those of you who know me know that that is an issue for me. I want to get the job done. Right? And I know many of you are like that too. But very often when we go into a community where there is low income we can undermine the community's well-being by being managerially paternalistic. Because we want to see results and see them fast. Now let me take this and put it into a church plant context. This is why I'm persuaded, especially when foreign missionaries go abroad, and this is one of the things I know that Chris has worked out in China, you don't make yourself the pastor of the church. You train up men there to be the pastors, and you move on. So you never get into a managerial paternalism in that sense. If you put yourself into the position where you're the pastor, I think this has been a big mistake in missions. The money's coming from America to support the guy in the compound where he's, you know, all that. The reality is then you have almost, this trickles down into the culture of the church. It's not a healthy thing for mission. And so it's the same for us if we're going to be involved in our community. We get into the community, we start helping to see things develop. We want to be getting people in the community involved to run the thing. Nor us have some kind of control of everything. And it comes down in some ways to the fact that we are, a lot of us by nature, and I know this can be one of my problems, we can be a control freak. You've got to stay in control of everything. Instead of trusting God with it and letting it run. And even if mistakes happen, let God work that out and let them learn from their experiences. This is the danger with us as fathers, isn't it, as parents. We want to make sure we control our children they get to the point where they don't get hurt and they don't fall. It's true, there's a difference between our children getting a bleeding knee and breaking their neck. We want to avoid them breaking their neck if we can. But a bleeding knee here and there, they'll probably learn from that in a way that's a healthy thing. So we've got to be so careful here in terms of managerial paternalism when we get involved in things in the community. We don't have to be controlling everything. And I think we as Christians can have a tendency to be like that. We've got to control it. We want all the Christians to be in charge of everything that's going on. And the reality is we want to train people up, we want to give them responsibilities. If God saves them, that's wonderful, that will be good. But the reality is we've got to avoid a managerial, paternalistic mindset. I think that's what we've got to be careful about. That's why we even have to be careful. I know we want to see a righteous man in the White House, but at the end of the day, if we don't have one, Who's still in control? Those of us who really do believe our Bibles, who's still in control? God, right? So we realize that. So remember, it's not about projects and programs, it's about people and process. And this is a critically important element for us to grasp. Okay. Any questions or any comments? Joe? Community building. Being involved. All of this together as a church. things that we can do. I used to be somebody whose hand was put down when I'm older. I don't have the energy to do it, so I have to be concerned about how we use the account system. First we use our hand, then we say we have to be here. People hear something and then they can enter in. I think it really Amen. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I think that the biggest challenge often in ministry, if you were to draw concentric circles, You have a large proportion of work being done by a small proportion of people in the church. One of the great dreams as a pastor is that you get full out to the edge of the circle and full out employment in terms of the work of the Lord. What that looks like practically, I honestly have no idea. I think the challenge for all of us is we're encouraging one another. The one another's of the New Testament are there for a reason. that we would encourage one another to be involved in serving Christ in community in the communities perhaps we're living in certainly serving in the church in some capacity in some way and continually developing that and continually in many ways expanding our influence to touch the lives of others and that's a challenge that we'll never be done doing till the Lord comes in his glory but you're right the challenge is not everybody is well first of all not everyone's going to do the same thing because we're not all gifted in the same way And we've got to know our gifts and we've got to know our abilities. And then we've got to encourage one another. And it's not just going to happen overnight. Some of us are already involved in things. Some of us could be more involved in things. Some of us are maybe thinking, what I am involved in, I'm not going to be involved in anymore. I need to change it. Some of us are thinking, hey, I want to get involved in some things that I'm not involved in. So that's good, because that's the dynamic that should be happening in the life of the church. Brandon. I'm finished, Steve. Right. So here we are. Final slide. Quickly finish this with us. We must find our niche. Alright? You've got to find your niche individually. I've got to find my niche. What does that mean? Find your place. Find your spot. point where you can be serving, right? No one church can do it all. So don't think that. Don't think we're going to be doing it all. That's why we relate to other churches. It's good, isn't it? We have other churches we can relate to. That's why we relate to other agencies, right? No one church should try to do it all. So don't be overwhelmed by the fact the pastor is going to launch some crazy insane idea that we're going to all be exhausted in a week. Every church must seek to find its own particular niche and seek to do that well. Some churches are really good at the relief. Some are good at rehabilitation. Some are good at development. Some have touches on all of these things. Okay. How do we decide? Come back next week. Let's pray. Father, You're teaching us some challenging things. You're showing us, Lord, that we are here on the earth to serve You. And we're here on the earth to reach those around us. We know, Father, that in particular this whole area of reaching the materially poor, for those of us, Lord, who would have to say are materially wealthy, is a challenge. And we ask, Lord, that you would help us. We ask, Lord, that you would give us spiritual discernment. We ask, Lord, you would deliver us from hypocrisy. We ask, Lord, that you would give us humility. That, Father, in whatever ways you lead us, whether they be great or small, that we would simply be found faithful. faithful in the use of the gifts you've given us, faithful toward those that you bring into our lives, that we might bring glory to Christ, that we might see you honored even through the testimony that we bear as a church in this city. And as we relate to other Christian agencies and Christian churches in our city, that Father, we would continue to zealously Pursue good works for the glory of Christ. For we ask these things in Jesus name. Amen. Thanks, folks.