So what I want to do is I want to ask you guys a few questions. Raise your hand. I'll do my best to look over my shoulder to the left to see you guys over there. We still have at least one seat on the couch over here by Ben. You'd be real primed to do Q&A. But how many people have tried to defend their faith in some capacity before, whether online, with another believer? OK. OK. How many people have felt uneasy about apologetics when that arose, like maybe completely ill-equipped to do it? Yes, okay. Ian, I'm just curious what your feelings are. Did some of you guys feel like, I don't know, maybe you've seen apologists in the past who gave Christians a bad reputation, so you're like, oh, I don't wanna be like that guy, right? I think that's a big one. How many of you felt like, I actually just literally have no idea what I'm doing? All right. Anybody actually attempted to do apologetics and then just miserably failed in your own estimation? Yes. So this is a common experience for us as believers. And here's my last question. How many of you, after attempting to engage in apologetics, have realized that you don't really even know what you believe all that well? Yeah, the fact of the matter is that when we start defending our faith, we actually start looking at our faith in a way that we never have before. And I find with young men in particular, and I hope as many of the people in youth discipleship as we can, we can get them out here, there is a zeal to defend something, and often without knowing anything about what it actually is. All right, anybody want to be bold and just actually share a bad apologetic story? Anyone? Time when you attempted to defend the faith went miserably bad. Callie, let's hear it. It didn't go miserably bad. Miserably bad. So we're the only Presbyterians in our school. The rest are Baptists. So of course, I'm like, oh, my dad's a pastor. So I'm going to try. I don't know how this came up, but the kid in our class named Judah was trying to tell me something. I'm like, no, it doesn't go like that. And I'm just like, I can think of any scripture person every time. He's like, no, that's not true. Yes, it is. It's in the Bible. Yes, but you bring up an excellent point. A lot of us kind of have these ideas that we believe X, Y, or Z, and we don't know where the Bible says it. Our actual ability to, you know, articulate that in a compelling way is maybe zero. And this brings me to a very, very important point. We're gonna do three things in this course throughout, and it's gonna begin with every single class we have, there's gonna be some very specific doctrine that we're gonna talk about what we believe, okay? The what is very important. The second thing, like second level of apologetics is the ability to show where in the Bible this doctrine is that you believe. And then the third step is actually being articulate as to why this is important. Does that make sense? You've got to know what, you've got to know where, and you've got to know why. Your assignment every week is going to be those three things. Your what is going to be a catechism question, your where is going to be a scripture proof, and your why is going to be how well you took in this particular session of our class. So, as for Bible verses that compel us to do apologetics, what comes to mind is maybe one of the main proof texts for those of you who have done a little bit of apologetics in your time. 1 Peter 3, 15. All right, let's hear it, Scott. You know what it says? Well, I get it. Paraphrase. He knew where. Duncan's stool for you. Let's see. Well, it basically talks about be ready always to give a defense for the hope that lies within you, and do that with gentleness and reverence. That's a pretty good paraphrase. I'll start in verse 14. If you guys have your Bibles, I would recommend, by the way, bringing them every time. The epistle of 1 Peter is written to believers who are being persecuted, and The idea is, not only are you going to be asked to give a rationale for your faith, but you're going to be asked to do that potentially genuinely on trial, or at least with a hostile audience. And it says this, but even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. and do not fear their intimidation and do not be troubled but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you yet with gentleness and reverence now To sanctify Christ in your hearts means to let Him have a prized and special place in your soul of the things that you adhere to. To sanctify something means to set it apart as special. And one way you do that is by being ready always. to make a defense for why you have the hope that you do. Now, of course, this is especially directed to ministers, but it's broadly directed to all believers. So here's what we've got to do. We've got to first know what we believe. We've got to know where. And then I'm going to draw out a broad apologetics principle each time we meet. Now, this is an important thing for us to grasp. We as Christians are not attempting to defend the idea that some God exists, broadly speaking, out there. Our interest is in defending the existence of a very specific type of God, the Christian God of the scriptures. We're not out there to tell the world about a generic deity. We're defending a whole worldview, the Christian worldview based on scripture, with a very specific type of God. How many of you have felt like maybe you know your Bible well enough to defend your faith against someone who's in a cult, or an aberrant Christian sect, but thought, I am powerless to defend the faith with someone who is an out-and-out atheist or agnostic? You guys ever felt that way? One of the main points I intend to make in this class is that we actually are going to be using the same principles to defend our faith to someone who believes in the Bible, to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible, and that what we believe is relevant across the board. So, what we believe, where the Bible says it, why it's important, and we're gonna jump straight into a big what. This is one of the most debated, one of the most challenged aspects of our faith, and it's gonna seem like a very weird place to start. We're gonna talk about where the Bible teaches this doctrine, and we're gonna talk about why it's important at the front end, and it's actually our doctrine of eternal punishment. How many of you guys know that Christians today, there are people who call themselves Christians who deny that anything like hell or eternal punishment exists? called universalists. So what we're about to talk about is going to be valuable to a whole bunch of non-Christian sects out there who claim to be Christian and not to believe in eternal punishment. We're also going to see this doctrine is supremely valuable. to defending our faith against atheists, agnostics, and adherents to entirely different religions. So we've got to start with what? What does the Bible teach about those who do not place their faith in Christ alone for salvation? Somebody want to give me a synopsis? What happens? An eternity without God. Yeah, eternity at a distance from God, at least at a distance from God in any loving and kind disposition toward people. So what does this mean? We believe in eternal hell. I'll bet most people in this room haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this belief we have as Christians because it's a bit terrifying. This means a few things, friends. It first of all means that we believe that those who don't trust in Christ for salvation are going to be in a place forever that's not purgatorial and it's not corrective. What does it mean to say it's not purgatorial? Well, there's no place to go to purge your sins and then make it up to heaven. There's no middle ground. It's up or down. That's right. The condition and state of people in eternal punishment is not corrective. The function and purpose of it is not to better them. It's not to help them to cease from evil or rebellion. Those things will not be possible at all. Now think about some other beliefs that this is contrary to. What are some ideas about what happens after we die that our doctrine of hell is directly opposed to? Reincarnation. Okay. Reincarnation. Which religions, which worldviews teach reincarnation in some fashion? Well, Hindu is the major. Didn't the Greeks also believe? Yes. They called it transmigration. What's that? Unity Church believes that. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yes, the Unity Church. Yes, Unitarian Universalist believes that. Any other religions that teach reincarnation in some capacity? Doesn't the Buddhists? Buddhists, absolutely. Yes, most of us should anticipate ages of reincarnation beyond this life in the Buddhist worldview. So reincarnation, there's a whole nother idea. Has anyone ever heard the Second Chance Doctrine? Anybody know what that is? Yes, all your second, third, fourth, and fifth chances are right here in this life. But the second chance doctrine, it's common to all sorts of American cults. Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, both teach this, that upon death, you're gonna get a second chance to receive Christ or not, perhaps at the judgment, okay? This is fundamentally not biblical. And how many of you knew that was not biblical? You can raise your hand and go, no, I know that's wrong. Okay, so you've got a taste in your mouth on the what. Okay, so this is eternal punishment, and it's not eternal in the sense that it is definitive and final, and it's a lasting punishment, but maybe you just cease to exist. What do you call that doctrine that you just cease to? Annihilationism. Annihilationism. Cease to exist-ism? Yeah. Annihilationism is what that's called, and there have been proponents of that doctrine in a variety of forms and a variety of religions, most notably the secular religion of our day, which is atheism. It is fundamentally annihilationist. You just cease to be, right? So we're not saying annihilationism and we're also not saying that you simply are maybe put away in a cell and maybe like a wild animal chained so that you can't harm others and you're just imprisoned. We're saying there's conscious suffering that goes on in this place. This is a pretty intense doctrine. No ending, no possibility of release, conscious. I think we can all understand why this would be widely opposed, right? So we begin with what, and your catechism question that you're gonna memorize, and you can always use the songs, but it's gonna be what doth every sin deserve? And the answer is every sin deserves God's wrath and curse, both in this life and that which is to come. Now that's just a what, that's just a doctrine. The world is gonna look at that doctrine and think it's the greatest scare tactic that Christians have ever used to get people to believe our worldview. First thing we've got to know is therefore where this doctrine is taught. And I'm just curious from you guys, who is the most outspoken person in all of scripture about the reality of eternal conscious torment? Yeah. You guys, this is something that should be very clear to you then. You guys know this. How many people knew Jesus as the number one person in the Bible who talks about hell by far? Hell is mentioned more often by Jesus than a lot of other topics in the Gospels. Okay, so not only does Jesus preach this doctrine more than anyone else, he preaches it quite a lot relative his own teaching. This should tell us something right now, that this is not an ancillary add-on to a worldview or to a faith that just kind of got thrown in there. there is something inherent about this doctrine to what Jesus taught. So where does the Bible teach this? Who could tell if, you know, this is baseline apologetics and unbeliever comes to you and says, I heard there's this doctrine of hell. Where is that in the Bible? So I'd want to see it in the lips of God himself or his prophets. Who knows? Who knows where the, yes? The story of the beggar and the rich man? Lazarus and the rich man. Yes, so in Luke, which is the only gospel which records this. you know, Jesus is speaking a parable. Now, anybody know what a critic of our doctrine of hell would say about this story? It's in Luke 16. What would the critic say if you try to point to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man as a proof text for hell? What do you think a Jehovah's Witness would say? Yeah, they'd say that's just a story. Now, it would be interesting to reply, did Jesus ever tell any other parables about completely fictitious states of affairs? Like broadly speaking, it's usually about, you know, masters and slaves, which is a historical reality. It's usually about farming. It's usually about a woman who lost a ring. It would be really weird for Jesus to tell a parable about a purely fictitious fantasy state of affairs. That would be very odd. But there are probably some other proof texts you could go to. What else might you go to? What causes you to sin? Pop it out. Better to enter heaven with one eye than to enter into hell with two eyes where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. Excellent. In what chapter of the Bible would that be in? Matthew 5. It's in the Sermon on the Mount. It's very good though. I'm going to put out as one of our main proof texts, and you're going to memorize the 46th verse of chapter 25 of Matthew. If anyone's got their Bible, go ahead and read Matthew 25, 41 to 46. Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me. You cursed into the eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. I was a stranger, and you did not welcome me. Naked, and you did not clothe me. Sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you? Then he will answer them, saying, truly I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least Anybody know what parable this is? Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. It describes all of humanity, all of the nations before Christ is judged, or before the master is judged, which is clearly Christ as Jesus phrases it in terms of himself. And it provides for you a description of what Jesus will say to a large portion of humanity at some point in the future. And I want you guys to think about this and meditate on this with me for just a little bit. Notably, first off, the time frame of eternal punishment is very clearly placed next to the time frame of something else. Look at verse 46 if you got your Bibles. What is eternal punishment compared to? Eternal life. A lot of people will try to say that the word eternal just means for a very long time. And if you looked in a dictionary and you said, what does eternal mean in English? People would say foolish things in a common way that we might speak, would be like, oh, that test took an eternity, or my job, it was never ending, say things like that. And so there is a sort of hyperbolic use of that word. How can you respond to someone who says that eternal punishment is just extremely long? It's the never-ending story. Well, I assume that if one is one way, why isn't the other one the same way? A much more helpful answer. Yes. A very long amount of time of punishment is finite, and just to say that the eternal life we expect as believers is also not finite. Yeah, it would really, really wreck. If you take the same meaning of the word. Yeah. If the eternal punishment just means a very long punishment with the possibility of reversal, what in the world does eternal life mean? A really long, long period of blissful life with the possibility of reversal? When you're a kid in college, you believe that. He said, like, I hope I don't lose my celebration when I'm up in heaven. This is a valuable discussion, guys, because these are the sorts of things that if you're talking to a critic of biblical Christianity, they're gonna say. And being able to actually look at the text and be able to go and to reason with it and to say, if you're gonna use that word eternal or argue that word eternal means something less than forever, you've really kind of undercut the whole biblical doctrine of salvation. We're not laboring for a very long-to-be-enjoyed prize. We're laboring for an eternal prize. That's why it'd be better to lose your eye or to lose a limb in this limited time frame of life that we have. Yes? There's an obvious corollary, of course, and that is that it's all fused with the reality and character of God, who is eternal, and there's no beginning or end to God. So His eternal life is with Him, so the eternal life with Him would only end if He ends, and we don't contemplate God ever ending, let alone when He began. That's right, that's right. Also, there's very few things in life that you can count on forever. Is there anything you can count on? Life insurance. Taxes. No, that's Texas. I do believe in states of anarchy. There's a brief period where there are no taxes, but other help to pay maybe. But it's a strong statement to say God is eternal. our reward, our punishment, our consequences, our eternal reactions. Win it or lose it. Absolutely. It follows from the nature of our God. And we're going to talk about the nature of our God next week. But these are important parts of drawing a web of your Christian belief system and world view together. What are other indications in this passage in Matthew 25 that would make you conclude that, say, for example, this punishment isn't eternal in just the sense that it's final. That's what annihilationists will say. You suffer eternal punishment in the sense that you are eternally judged and killed and annihilated, and in a sense that's eternal because you'll never come back again. What would be a compelling reason from this passage to conclude otherwise? Okay, so you could say that a penalty is eternal in the sense that it's irreversible But for them they'd say God just makes you disappear and in that sense you're suffering an eternal punishment because you're just gone forever What would make you conclude? That's not what this passage is saying well because you Punishment only has meaning if you're conscious. Okay. I mean if you're not conscious, how is that any punishment at all? You're just not there. That's right. You can beat me all night. What if I'm not there? Right. No. Oh, stop. No, but You're bringing up a major critique friends of annihilationism. Go ahead Scott. I just say the idea there's this eternal fire and ongoing thing. If a fire goes out, it's not a fire anymore. Right? It has no fuel. It's gone. What would you need an eternal fire for if the judgment being suffered by those who reject Christ is just disappearance? Why have the flame go on forever? See what he's saying there? These details of the text are the things that are arguing against these other points. And Scott's point is good though as well. You know what Jesus says about Judas? What does Jesus say about Judas? It would have been better for him to what? To have never been born at all. It's hard to imagine how that's an intelligible statement. If people have a second chance to be saved. It's hard to believe how that's an intelligible statement if, in fact, those who have been wicked just disappear. You could even say that their, like, aims at living a hedonistic lifestyle just for themselves to enjoy themselves as much as they can because let's eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die was totally right. Wouldn't that actually be the case? So these sorts of verses, and that's another excellent one, is a proof text that's in this right here. The idea that it would have been better for Judas to have never been born is really seemingly only intelligible if Judas is consciously suffering. I'm just curious, any other sorts of proof texts or descriptions of hell that would make you believe it was conscious, that it was forever, that it was perpetual? Revelation 20, 11 to 14. Okay. 15, 11 to 15. Okay. Scott's got the proof text. Does he have the paraphrase? He did pretty well last time. So, starting 11, fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades also gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. I think earlier, too, it talks about the lake of fire. I skipped ahead because it talks about the defeat of Satan. Starting in verse 7, it says, And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather for the battle of their number like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints of the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So it literally says right there that they'll be tormented day and night forever and ever and that's the lake of fire and that's the same place that that the people who were judged. Yes, multiple such statements in Revelation. The same statement almost exactly gets made earlier in the book, and we'll read it later in Revelation 14. Same thing, it says specifically that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They will have no rest day or night. That's quite the contrary of annihilation, maybe an eternal rest, right? You disappear. Surely not that. So we have this idea that it's conscious, that it's perpetual. We have proof texts from Matthew 25 to Revelation 20 to Matthew 26 where it describes the condition of Judas that would have been better if he had never been born. Guys, it might sound like we have just well-established a doctrine that would make Christianity the hardest possible belief system to ever defend. Um, that's a challenging doctrine, right? I'm going to tell you right now, Christianity and religions based on the Bible are the only religions that have any such doctrine of hell. And I want to start probing your guys's understanding as to why this is important. Why is this doctrine important for us to believe? Well, to properly frame our status, our condition in life, that there is a choice we face in terms of the end of our life. When our life comes to an end, there's only two directions, and that we have a choice while we're here. We don't get to choose after, so it's very important. consider soberly the facts and the evidence, the pronouncements, the scriptures, and make a choice that is the best choice. It seems obvious what you should choose, but of course, then, you know, well, is this true or not, blah, blah, blah. Scott said a number of things there, and there are actually a lot of really good gems in what he said. There are three reasons that we're gonna really, really chew on for a moment. as to why this doctrine is important and why I made it the beginning of our apologetics class. The first, which Scott did touch on, is that we have a better reason to defend our faith than the adherent of any other worldview on planet Earth. We have better reason and more reason to go out and to boldly declare Christ and to defend Christ and the faith than any other worldview because we believe in eternal consequences. This doctrine that we just talked about, the idea of eternal conscious torment for those who do not believe in Christ, it frankly is a doctrine which makes this life more significant than any other worldview or philosophy that you could ever embrace. This life matters with an utter consequence. What you decide here, what decisions you make, actually affect eternity. And I want you to think about this for a moment. Why evangelize for naturalistic atheism? If you're a naturalistic atheist, you believe fundamentally there is no God, fundamentally there are no consequences, I want you guys to get into the mind of the person you might be talking to. What is the point of trying to compel people to agree with you? What are they after? You guys tell me. Get into the mind. Maybe you've been in, in states of unbelief. Maybe someone you know. Why do people want you to believe naturalistic atheism? That all there is is the material world, matter in motion. Why do they want to compel you? They don't want to be alone in that. Okay. They want company. Darn right. They want company in hell. I've actually heard people say that before. If there's a hell, I'm going to go there because my whole family's there. What you just said, they're terrified of that. Okay, then there's the other thing. There's the deterrent factor that they're terrified of the idea. Not terrified enough to repent in any way. But what is the point of being an evangelist for atheism? It's to not have, okay, so company. To be right. Get to dunk on fundies. Get to dunk on people. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it was for me back in the day. Yeah. The intellectual hubris of, oh, you stupid Christians. It's like, let me teach you something here. I know so much more than you. I agree with you. That seems like a big half of it for Sam Harris types. Richard Dawkins types also just look like they hate, they literally hate the idea of God. Absolutely. So some people, I totally agree with you, they're like, oh yeah, I mean, we're way past that now, guys. That's like really. That's our mom and dad. Yeah, but some look like they just, this is like really regular human nature, just like they just, That's right. They want to do it in right my brother went through a big phase like that for about a decade where he was feisty angry and definitely wanted everybody to agree with him that Christ did you know maybe didn't even exist I'm Jesus the human figure but then beyond that that God didn't exist you name it and guys what I'm really trying to get at here is You can start to see how our doctrine about eternal consequences plays into even just the significance of why we would ever want to defend our faith. When we actually believe there are consequences This life matters. You think about, for an atheist, what is an atheist saying are the grand consequences if you make the mistake of believing in Jesus for your entire life? What is the dangerous consequence for an atheist? Wasting time. Yes. You could be doing what? All the other things, you know, save the planet. Which is going to just get burned up by the sun, and they'll be the first to tell you that. That's so way far in the future. Right. So all you're ever working for is an intermediate goal, which fundamentally will never have any lasting significance. Guys, do you actually see for a moment this doctrine, which seems extremely terrifying on the one hand, is actually the only sort of doctrine that makes this life, and the decisions we make in it, fundamentally consequential. If you're an atheist, whether you believe in Jesus or not, it might be a matter of fun for a while, it might be a matter of intellectual superiority, but at the end of the day, It makes zero difference for eternity. Do you understand? Go ahead, Scott. You're hitting on the point. I love to say this when I talk to atheists. So fundamentally, in your worldview, what you're telling me is Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler end up in the exact same spot. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you fed orphans in India and lived your whole life doing that, or you helped kill millions and millions of people. They end up in the same place. Their reward, their punishment in the end is exactly the same. That's what you're lobbying for here. No, I'm just saying that, and just let them own up to that, that that's literally what they're saying. That's right. And just let them sit in that, that that's what they're promoting. And fundamentally, people who have done much to help others may have wasted their life having far less fun than those who otherwise did. I mean, Hitler made the trains run on time. Yeah. Adrienne, you were going to add something? Oh, no, Matt, you said it. There's actually a proverb in the Bible that we've alluded to a few times. You'll have the references here, 1 Corinthians 15, 32, Isaiah 22, 13. It gets repeated in most of the prophets, and it's the word of those who are practical atheists. It's, uh, let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. There's, if you have this mentality, There is no reason to do anything but to serve yourself. Even the good things that you do bring about nothing at all in the way of lasting change. Guys, I want you to have the sense as well that this is actually religions that seem nice because they teach annihilationism. Seventh-day Adventism teaches that. Liberal Christianity often teaches that. That you just get annihilated even if you happen to be evil. they actually leave you in the exact same place. Why waste your time? Why break a sweat trying to understand your faith in someone else's? Why attempt to persuade if there is no lasting difference? This is, it's a hard truth to swallow, but it's important for you to understand the apologetic value of saying, if there are not eternal consequences, we shouldn't be arguing at all. There is no difference. This is foundational to why we would go into a discussion with someone knowing we could lose a friendship offering a reason for the hope that we have. I'll ask you as well. Okay, so another belief about the afterlife, atheism. We're all going to the same place, which is nowhere. Okay, so universalism. We talked about Unity Church. We talked about Unitarian Universalism, the Baha'i faith. They also teach that every path leads to God. It is the unofficial religion of secular America. It's called pluralism. You know, everybody has their own way and their own path. Here's my question. Why spend your time trying to persuade someone of universalism? What would be the point of that? Anybody know anyone who holds that view that probably everybody's going to heaven? OK. What's the point of trying to argue that or reason that with someone else? Get in their head. I think this one guy just likes to disagree with me. Yeah? It's worth noting that George MacDonald was a universalist. Yeah. David Bentley Hart is a universalist. Yeah. found it attractive, even though he didn't wanna go down that path. He pumps the brakes for sure. Yeah. And like, I think there's multiple reasons. If you believe, Hell, as you just described, the blood of everybody you know that you didn't, that you didn't confront, is going to be crying out against you for eternity. That's a hard pill to swallow. And the other question is, when you're trying to conceive of the goodness of God, I still think that that's a good question. If I were to punish my child for eternity, Like, there are thoughts that I have about hell that don't make any sense to me, still. Like, look, a Chinese kid who's five years old, 500 BC, who lives till they're four and then gets slaughtered, you know, like, punished consciously for eternity, that doesn't, that doesn't, like, if that doesn't, make you think, how does that work with the goodness of God, then I still think you have a lot of thinking to do about this topic because they're very difficult. Yes. So I'm going to paraphrase for Tim. For Tim, part of it is a cognitive dissonance that you want to dispel. Now, here's the thing, Tim, I'm going to hand you that like on the intellectual level, but fundamentally, if you're already a universalist and you use that cognitive dissonance to deny what the Bible says, my question is, why do you want to compel other people to believe it? What is the rationale for why you should spend your time in this life, if you've accepted those arguments, trying to compel your neighbor who does believe there's a hell, it's compelling your neighbor to go out and evangelize all of those kids to the degree they can find them in China, or finance missionaries who are, why do you want to compel that person to disbelieve in hell? I still think that the general perception for most philosophers throughout history has been that the more that you understand the truth and you can align yourself with the way things are, the better things are. So I would still think that, for example, George MacDonald wrote those into stories instead of trying to write an actual essay on his belief because he felt like Christianity itself or by embracing this belief at large scale, by aligning with what he perceived was the truth, would somehow be an improvement. Right, so for him it's just a more intellectual matter that truth should be taught, period. And it's probably better if it is. Even though he would have to admit many people who don't believe that truth are compelled by believing the opposite to preach the gospel elsewhere. But I would just put it this way. I mean, there's a fellow on the internet who talks about witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses. And he calls it the impossible gospel. And Jehovah's Witnesses do believe in the second chance doctrine. So there are a few different videos, and a Jehovah's Witness will come, and he'll be like, alright, let's just say I'm dying right now, like I've got two minutes left to live, and you've got to tell me about becoming a Jehovah's Witness. And we can say they're essentially universalist, since you get that second chance, and who would stare the maker in the eye, so it seems, and be like, oh, forget you. So Jehovah's Witness struggles and they're like, well, you're dying? Okay, well, I've got good news for you. You've got a second chance. And he's like, oh, wait, you mean I could have spent my whole life sinning as much as I wanted and I just have a second chance? And he kind of rattles it backwards the whole time. And at the end of the day, It's hard to say what a Jehovah's Witness has to say to you in that moment. Where you're headed, why should I burden a man on his dying deathbed with a doctrine that should be believed if I fundamentally believe he's going to a place that is eternally good? And it's a very hard question to answer, I think, especially in those circumstances. It actually puts the whole world in a very weird condition. Hitler sent more people to heaven than anybody else in the Holocaust. He just expedited their getting there, because it's just eternal life. These are really complicated ethical conclusions that you arrive at. Planned Parenthood, if you're an out-and-out universalist, has sent more people to heaven than anyone else in probably American history. And that's a hard, that's a difficult concept if you're just gonna just say, blank pass, everyone's going to heaven. Go ahead, Josh. I don't know quite how far this went, but you never heard the word, you're a tribe in the middle of... Nowhere. How do they go to hell if they have no idea? Sure. And that was kind of to his point, too, about a child that's birthed in China. I mean, I need to understand that because I don't... Right. Yeah. Well, there's a few things. We're going to talk about the condition of the state of man and the state of man's mind. If you look at the world as if there are all these people dying to hear the gospel and just waiting to embrace the Savior, all of it sounds insane. If you look at the world as filled with people who fundamentally in their heart of hearts hate God, then it's a very different perspective on all of this. We're going to go to the condition of man next, but I'm just starting right now. I'm going to tell you right now that the masses who have gone and covered this earth and become martyrs for their faith, 999 to 1 believed that there was a hell that people stood to suffer so we had better go and tell that person in China about a savior. And I really do challenge you guys to consider if fundamentally the universalists were correct, what would be the value of disturbing anyone's belief system or worldview when people have proven themselves to be very content to give God no consideration whatsoever? We have to take that in. And it's the same with the second chance doctrine, which is similar. You guys have to take this in. We are doing apologetics because there are consequences. And when you have this mindset that God is good, I wonder if it would be good for God to have a reality in which there were fundamentally no consequences. Not any that last. Whether that would trivialize life or whether that would make life the more meaningful. I just recently encountered a Mormon kid in a restaurant, and he did exactly this, because they're universalists in the sense that they go, well, maybe there's a hell, but it's possible that nobody goes there. And I was talking with this fellow, and I said, okay, well, so why does it say that it would have been better for Judas to have never been born? And he's like, and he's a bit shell-shocked. And I'm like, no, but seriously, if Judas is going to the same place you and me are, why would it be better for him to have not left his mother's womb? Why could that be better? And he's like, well, you're just, and then he really kind of shut down. He's like, you're using reasoning and your word. Reasoning? I know. Don't use that. Don't use that from the word. Because fundamentally, if he was right, there was no point in doing what he was doing. You guys, we have to have this idea at the heart of why we're doing apologetics. It matters. And I would actually submit to you that it is our belief in eternal consequences as Christians, which is so profoundly unique to every aberrant Christian cult, every aberrant religion. What does reincarnation teach? Are there eternal consequences for you? No, at best is a life after this one, which is a little bit worse. And actually, at the end of the day, in all cyclical worldviews, and that's what the Greeks believed, that's what Hindus believe, that is what Buddhists believe, there is a cycle. What is the point of anything if it is just a ring? There's no telos, to use an important word. There's no end, there's no goal. This is a unique thing that Christianity has brought to the world, you guys, a linear view of history that we are headed somewhere and that things matter. I would tell you this, one of the most important proofs for Christianity, I'll lay this out right here, in all but Christianity, time fundamentally does not matter. What you do in this life fundamentally does not have eternal consequences. For all but Christianity, it's very hard to say why you're defending your beliefs at all. This should be a really compelling thing for us to say, A, this is why we need to do this. And this is what marks our belief system and our worldview as radically different from anything invented by the minds of men. It is a uniqueness point. I'll put one else out there just so you guys can know, and then I'll get Adrian's question. Because in Islam, they actually do have a view of eternal punishment. Anybody know, and you might say, okay, well, there's a counter argument, another belief system that is making similar claims. Anybody know the Islamic view or doctrine of salvation? Can you know at any point that you're saved? No, I had a co-worker when I worked at Daniels, his name was Ayhan, and I was kind of hoping that he would be a somewhat inconsistent Muslim, but I asked him, I was like, Ayhan, you know, we're friends, we've been friends for a long time, I know you're Muslim, are you confident that you're going to heaven? He's like, no. He's like, no good Muslim will ever tell you that. I would submit. Go ahead, Scott. Well, I think there might be one exception, and it kind of depends on maybe what everybody's heard, but it seems pretty clear that if they die in an act of If they die in an act of martyrdom, jihad, then they are. So that would be a reason to go ahead and fly a 757 into the world trade zone. And only certain sects of Islam will tell you that. I think that's an important distinction too. Islam is an extremely huge group of people. very small percentage that would probably adhere to that act would lead to certainty that you're going straight to heaven. And remarkably, that particular act is one where you have to put yourself in an extreme moral dilemma to do something that would otherwise be evil, even in Islamic terms, to be there. But as for why you should argue with someone, at the end of the day, for a Muslim, The idea for why they should reason with you to become a Muslim is not because they have this good news of assurance that you can be saved. It's not that. It's actually that the only way you could be saved, maybe, is if you're attempting to pursue Allah who is otherwise, his bar is unknown. You have no idea whether you've jumped over it, whether you've done enough, whether you're going to retain it, whether you're there. There's no certitude about it. That also really cheapens why you would ever be the apologist talking about those things. And frankly, in Allah's capricious capacity, no one could really say if he doesn't save someone else just because he likes them. And they either have or have not prayed multiple times a day and undergone the various course of Islam. Uncertainty is at the heart of things. We have a reason to preach the faith because we also can tell people you can have assurance that you're saved, there are eternal consequences, and you can actually know where you're gonna end up on the end of this. This is a radical difference for Christianity. And so I'm making this claim on the front end of our class. If any other worldview is true, there is literally no good reason why any Christian should believe it or convert to it Because their worldview itself either makes time inconsequential, you're believing that worldview inconsequential. And that's a radical difference with Christianity. You know, did someone say something? No, it was a dog. Oh, I'm sorry. These strange voices. And I would actually put this other point out there too, Ecclesiastes 3.11 says that God has placed eternity in the hearts of men. You're actually hungry for consequences. Every one of us is, and even the world is, and that's why, frankly, when we tell people these things, that there are eternal consequences, being made in the image of God, as you had mentioned earlier, who is eternal, makes a big difference. We're talking about something that the unbeliever is actually gonna be able to say, In their heart of hearts, I know I'm actually hungry for something that lasts. Okay, so that's the first point. That's why this doctrine's significant. Second reason this doctrine's significant, and you guys, this is the meat of this course. What is step one? Where is step two? Why? Why is step three? And we're gonna meditate on this. And the second reason it is important is for you as the apologist defending your faith, it's important for you Know the cries of the... Trying to weave this in. No, one of the reasons it's significant is you need to understand the state of the people you are talking to in unbelief. I want you to think about this for a little bit. We just read Matthew 25. Jesus says that when the goats encounter him, he's gonna say, you never fed me. You never gave me anything to drink. And when they're standing in front of the resurrected Jesus Christ, when they're standing in front of a divine judge and they've figured out there is an afterlife, they're not going to beg forgiveness. They're not going to say, what can we do? Oh my goodness, I made a mistake. I believe in you now. They're going to say, when did we not do that? I want you to think about the condition of the state of man. to have that kind of reply. Apparently, face-to-face, firsthand knowledge of Jesus Christ will not persuade demons, Satan himself, or fallen men who have just been resurrected from the dead to change the beat of their drama. This is a pretty intense revelation and it starts to begin to answer the questions that Tim posed earlier, that Josh is mulling on. How could the Lord do something like this, have anything like eternal punishment? The answer, fundamentally, is that human beings, to the very last man, are born into this world hating God, not with a weak or minimalist hatred, but very literally, with an eternal hatred. Yes? What about the predestined? Yeah, well, see, so there you go. We're predestined unto life by being regenerated, as Elder Bosserman talked about today. God must, by his Holy Spirit, literally change our hearts and our souls, or we will not believe in Jesus Christ. We will not have tenderheartedness to him at all. We will be these people. That's what he foreknew us before we were born. That's right. So when he foreknew us, we hated him? That's right. When he foreknew us, first in Adam, in a state and condition of innocence, he knew that we would, in our father Adam, rebel, that every one of us would second that rebellion with our every single breath for our lives until we are regenerated by Jesus Christ. And this is important, you guys. When we have descriptions of hell, It's described as gnashing of teeth. Now gnashing of teeth is not something that fundamentally reflects sorrow normally in the Bible. It reflects anger. That they will be angry at God. The picture in this final judgment scene is actually one of Incredulity, the judge, how can you be sending us here? You didn't give us enough. You didn't give us what we needed. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, which Ben mentioned, the rich man is not described in that parable as repenting in hell. He actually is like, Lord, you didn't give us enough information. If you just send someone back from the dead to tell everybody, then they'll believe. And Jesus not only said, the Lord not only says, no, that's not true, they have the law and the prophets, but then he says on top of that, well, obviously then in the course of the Gospels, he does rise from the dead and people are not satisfied. You guys, the reason I'm pointing- I'm saying that if I became the perfect Vantillian presuppositional apologetics, apologetics guru, that I could not argue so wonderfully. Yeah, that's exactly what we're saying, and this is important. Hell Book teaches us A, why we need to preach the gospel because there are eternal consequences. It also shows us that there is a hard-heartedness in man that nothing short of a miracle will change. And this changes how we do apologetics, you guys. If there is eternal conscious torment out there, and there are people who are not there and sorrowful and repentant, but still angry, This tells us something about how we would do apologetics. I mean, the description that I was gonna tell you earlier, Scott jumped on some of it in Revelation 19 and 20. It's Revelation 14, 10. It talks about the false prophet and the beast and says, he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb. Did you hear that? And in the presence of the lamb. The picture of hell in the Bible is that God is like a fire. And he himself is that fire who makes believers shine. It's like we in the resurrection of the righteous become like a precious metal that just gets refined and glows in the fire. but he will be a presence unto unbelievers that they will hate the fact that he has conquered. They will hate the fact that he has resurrected. They will hate the fact that he's redeemed of people and they will hate that fact for eternity. That is the condition of unbelief. And the important thing that Paul was getting at is that in the presence of God himself, that information and evidence won't be sufficient to persuade them to change their heart. They won't be capable of it. This tells us something that the Reformed called the noetic effects of sin, and we're gonna call in apologetics the concept of antithesis. It is the idea that believers and unbelievers view absolutely everything differently. despite the apparent overlap in how we can get around in society and agree that two plus two equals four. When you guys hear two plus two equals four, you go, God created two plus God created two equals God created four because everything in that equation immediately says made by God. The unbeliever says, two which came I know not from where, when combined with another two which I know not where these numbers came from, equals four. We literally view everything differently, and unbelief is a sort of thing, a sort of anger that really clouds our ability to view anything rightly. And I would put this out there, part of your apologetics task is kind of unfolding this for people. One of the analogies I love to give to people is that, for example, how many of you have ever been in a fight with someone and been really angry? How many, two hours later, were like, dude, I was nuts. I did not, like literally nothing that was said did I grasp correctly. I misread you wrong. I read you in an angry way. In fact, there's nothing you could have said that I wouldn't have heard that wouldn't have been mean. You ever been in that state of mind? We all have. What we have to understand, friends, is that the Bible says that is fundamentally the disposition of man toward God from day one, from the womb. By nature, by nature. By nature. We are already in a fight with God the day we come out of the womb. And sometimes it's passive aggressive. Have you actually ever been mad at someone, but like you're perfectly calm and your anger doesn't come out in the form of like outbursts and protestations, but when it actually comes out, it's in the way of like, I'm just gonna ignore you. Thank you, Caius, one honest man in the room. Yes, oh, I had a few over here. Yes, I'm gonna ignore you, I'm gonna pretend I don't notice anything. That is the state of atheists. That is the state of every man who comes out of the womb of his mother. I am going to live my every moment, and I'm gonna pretend you don't exist. We're gonna talk more about this. And we talk more about this when we talk about presuppositions, but we call this, in apologetics, an antithesis between how believers and unbelievers view the world. And hell shows us this antithesis in the most frightening, imaginable way. You can be in the presence of the resurrected Jesus Christ, not be compelled to love him at all, and only harbor the deepest anger for him forever. That's the picture. And the reason we're going out and preaching the gospel is because we know there's only a supernatural solution to this, but we have to understand the condition of the people we're talking to. You guys get this? Ben, you were gonna say something? Spiritual death. I mean, if you think of people outside of the covenant as being born in a state of spiritual death, that's hard to comprehend, because when we're born, we tend to think of a baby as alive. And Adam didn't die. physically right after he sinned, but he did die spiritually right after he sinned. And so, because we can't see that death in that way, it's hard for us to comprehend that that baby is actually spiritually dead. That's right. immediately, you know, upon conception, that soul is spiritually dead. Yes. Save the resurrection power of the spirit. Yeah, you're nailing it, Ben. And God really emphasizes for us that that first death experienced by Adam was spiritual because Adam went on to live for hundreds of years. In fact, the antediluvian people lived much longer. So you couldn't be confused that it's just physical death. It begins with a spiritual death condition that we're under and this makes for a very weird and counterintuitive thought that frankly everyone in hell hates God so utterly that in a twisted sense, they would rather suffer for eternity than trust in Jesus for salvation. That is the picture. And it's the same, and it shouldn't be hard for you to get in that you have these experiences when you're in the heat of the argument. There's a sense in which you would, like you're kind of loving being angry at that moment. Like think about yourself in that irrational moment where you can't be reasoned with. There's a part of you that loves your insanity. It's kind of scary. It's really scary because the Bible says that is actually more true to you in what your condition is before God than that of a calm, cool, collected, rational party, an interlocutor. Go ahead. That's right, yeah. And that might seem very odd that in the midst of this condition. No self-control. That's right. If you're powerful. That's right. This is the remarkable evil and cunning of sin and you need to be aware the people you are talking to are in that state. So let me ask you a question real quick. What is the best analogy for apologetics? Which of these resonates with you? Is it like you, the believer, the apologist, are an assistant to a scientist, the unbeliever, to help them to see the evidence? Hang on to that. Is it that you, the Christian, the apologist, are like an attorney before a judge trying to help them to decide in favor of maybe two pleading parties, maybe God and Satan on the other side? Or, Is it that you are, like a family member, trying to do an intervention with someone who is in a state of mind that they're denying the completely obvious, which is that they're a self-destructive, self-destroying person, and in a way you're just, you're trying, you're not trying to teach them even anything new. You're just trying to get them to admit their state and condition. Which of those is the best portrait for what? That's multiple choice. Yeah. And it's easy, because the third one makes it so, well, like if you're going to an abortion clinic and you're a Catholic, sure, you might rescue that child from physical death. You might get to live, because you convinced the lady. In that scenario, you have nothing to offer as far as pulling that baby or that mother out of spiritual death if you're a Catholic, because you're just going to be enslaved in the same worldview that's going to take you away from that. But if you come as a Christian, you have the offer of the miracle of salvation that God can do, so you can both save that baby and the mother. I'm gonna try to rephrase what you're saying. You're saying that if you're a Catholic apologist, you're appealing to that woman's reason, and you're saying like, maybe we can all be reasonable here, but if you're a Christian out there, what you're laboring for is a miracle. That's really how you have to think about what you're actually doing as an apologist. You know, I know a lot of people who would feel embarrassed when they're doing apologetics to quote a Bible verse, because what you do is you'd go like, I'm trying to talk to a scientist here, and they don't believe the Bible yet. What I'm trying to tell you, friends, is you should unashamedly quote Bible verses, because here's what people are. They're people whose Creator, God, they know His voice, and they can't help but to know His voice. And when you open up the Word of God, they're hearing the voice of their Creator. They will vehemently deny it. They will vehemently fight against it. They will vehemently tell you, Don't take that for and yet why is it like even in movies? It's like Americana to like have Bible verses in a completely secular plot and theme and somehow it has significance It's the voice of a father that you can hear in the background and you keep trying to tell yourself that's not my dad But you have to have this sense that that is the best picture of what's going on You're doing an intervention You're talking to a person who is self-destructive and will kill themselves by their behaviors and actions, but not just for this life, but for eternity. That is the condition you're in. And think about it, when you do an intervention, the people, when they're talking to that person, that family member, that friend, Do they argue and reason the way that you debate with your friends who are on the other side of the political aisle and, you know, get really mad and huff and puff? How does that conversation go? Does that get you anywhere when you're talking to an addict? No. It's, there's something heartfelt about it that's really important. And I just, I want to give you this verse so you guys can see the Lord Jesus by His Spirit telling us this. This is 2 Timothy 2, 24 to 26. This is a very important verse for apologetics. The Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if, perhaps, God may grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth, and that they may come to their senses in escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." That word, come to his senses, is literally, in the Greek, become sober. What this is telling you is that people in unbelief are not calm, collective, rational people, no matter how monotone Sam Harris speaks. He is drunken with anger. And you're probably not gonna be able to fight fire with fire. It's not to say you don't build arguments and we're gonna talk about these sorts of things, but you have got to have the sense that that is the condition. That's what hell teaches us about the human race. So, what are the two reasons for why hell is important? We've had two, and I wanna make sure you guys are actually tracking with me here. We know what the Bible says, we have our proof text, we have our catechism song for what and where. What are the two reasons that we have said for why this is important? Motivation and stakes. Okay, right, so eternal consequences, the stakes, and it's important to know the condition is the second one, the mental state and condition of unbelief. It is radical disdain and hatred for God. You guys got those two? Mental state of? Of unbelief. You have to have that idea. I'm just curious for any of you who have been unbelievers and gone from a state of unbelief to belief. Can anyone share like I'm shutting that door sort of anger or like more vehement anger things that you've been through? I'm just curious. Anyone? Ben? Yeah. Well, I think when I was younger in my state of unbelief mainly came from I thought I was learning about science. Yeah. I thought very cold logic of sort of the universe itself, atoms, you know, like I didn't have really a sense that there was anything beyond what I could experience in the flesh until things started happening in life that made me think otherwise. And that was strange, though, because as a young man, I almost automatically believed, in a lot of ways, having a best friend who died at a very young age, I had to tend that open casket as a kid and see all that, feel all that. I actually believed it, that there was an afterlife. I think once you start learning other things, you can get in the way. And that's been great. So I don't feel like I really have hatred for anybody. I just figured they were blissfully ignorant. And I would submit that's probably the more, there's so much affirmation around us for not believing or pursuing the Lord, especially in a pluralistic society. If you would describe it as hatred, usually you have to be triggered. This would go back to that picture that I had earlier. You can hate something and not know it until you're triggered by it. If someone actually came to you and said, Josh, you're going to hell, man. That's the sort of thing that surely does trigger people. Paul, when he's in Athens and just babbling, they just call him a babbler. But when he's like, no, Christ died and rose from the dead, and he's going to judge the living and the dead, that's when you're like, get this guy out of here. Well, I've had enough. I think my reaction was, because I had been accused of that. It was like, I just couldn't. Yeah, that's right, but I don't think I was Yeah, yeah anyone else when you were an unbeliever I Angry at God. Guys, we've been angry at God when we've been believers, okay? So let's, like, this does not require, you know, great depths of insight. I'll bet every one of us in this room have had times where we're mad at God, we're in a sober state of mind, we're like, yeah, that was all me. How do you know when you're young that there was a God to be angry at? Yeah. We're going to talk about presuppositions in a moment. It's funny. I'm going to make the argument next week. I shouldn't say moment. Next month. I make the argument that you know all sorts of things that you don't have names for and that you don't acknowledge. So we'll go there. But for today, the third point I'm going to talk about why this is important Number one, and I'm going to keep hitting you guys with this, there are consequences. That's why we're doing this, eternal consequences. There's not really another religion who can speak about consequences the way we do. Number two, we need to know this doctrine of eternal punishment to know the state of mind. It is the most forthright presentation of how Unbelief can just cloud our minds of objective thinking. And then the third thing is going to be this. It tells us about how to engage in apologetics. And take this point in, you guys. Without the belief that you are deserving of and have in fact been saved from eternal conscious torment, your apologetics will not be compelling to people. Nothing's at stake. Yeah, that's right. I want you to think about this. If there was an intervention, and let's say Rich was just a severe fentanyl addict. Let's say all of us in the room, no one knows it, but we're on the front end of a really bad fentanyl addiction. And we're trying to do an intervention with Rich. Do you think if we really shared that exact same addiction, or were right in the same mental state that he was, we would be a very compelling audience for why he should quit? How destructive a condition he's in? I think we all know that it would all fall flat. If you are functioning on a day-to-day basis without any sense of the fact that you are fundamentally deserving of being separated from God's kind presence, your darkness, gnashing of teeth, that is what we deserve, our apology will fall on its face. You know, one of the things that it says in Romans 9, 23 to 24, when it talks about the objects of God's wrath, this is in one of those chapters that talks about predestination in a pretty intense way. It says this, it says, what if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, so he's not afraid to do that, endured with much patience the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? That's to say, he took his time, gave them time on earth, And frankly, apparently is gonna endure with much patience people who hate him for eternity. He says, what if God did that? And he said, and he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon the vessels of his mercy prepared beforehand for glory. I wanna just confront you with this thought. The Bible is rather clear that those who are redeemed will not forget or be unaware of those who are in hell for eternity. There's actually this idea that every single moment as you advance into eternity, you will have a witness to how hard your unbelief was. A ready and present witness to it in this other realm, and you will know more and more and more and more and more and more and more what you were redeemed from. That's a scary thought, my friends, and I just really want to impress upon you that chewing on that reality about who we are is at the heart and soul of being able to make a plea to people that they need Jesus. You know, it's really interesting. When you started, I was thinking this is kind of an odd place to start, apologetics, honestly. I really, I've kind of been on the back end of this, this lecture, but it is interesting also that I, one of my universalist friends, co-workers, his absolute favorite is Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards because he mocks it relentlessly, which was kind of new to me because, I mean, I had been taught that stuff and I thought Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God was pretty stark and challenged me and very descriptive of the wrath of God that's awaiting for us, right? And it had compelled me to think about What I mean now I don't think it's necessarily the best sermon ever written, but it certainly is you know Stark and clear in terms of what wrath awaits the unbeliever and it is interesting that it is the universalist Who found it to be very amusing yeah? When I didn't think it was at all me no That's right Because you take it seriously. Take it seriously. And he doesn't. And I think it goes back to what Grant was saying about how just having the knowledge isn't going to necessarily be persuasive. The Holy Spirit needs to speak to it. But even just having that conversation about what the eternal consequences are that are before us is critical. That's right. You'll see, ultimately, where people shake out And if they're uncompelled by that, then it's the Holy Spirit we need to be praying for. That's right. And you know, we need to be witnessing in the power of the Spirit is those who know redemption firsthand. That is the first way that we do not rely on mere human power alone. We go as people who have really been changed. And it's interesting in these passages, both in 1 Peter and in 2 Timothy, it says the Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome. This is really interesting. And then it talks about gently correcting those who are in opposition, and it talks about being able to teach. For so many of us, apologetics seems to be exactly that, to just be quarrelsome. I just want to lay this before you guys that a very important part of your apologetic, in addition to actually knowing and really believing yourself to be worthy of eternal punishment and having been redeemed, is that you do not argue for the faith like you argue for other things. It will hurt your witness if you're just known to be a guy who argues for everything with the same vehemence. and with the same sense of urgency or with the same sense of sport as you reason for the faith. I'm not saying as Christians we don't have much to say about all things in the world. We surely do. Our faith is relevant to everything. But I am saying there should be a marked difference between how we confront people with the truth of Christianity and the way we confront them with the truth that we shouldn't have our taxes raised next year. I feel strongly about the one. I hope to always feel infinitely more strongly about the other. And this is a hard thing, you guys. It's hard to be able to focus on the things that really, really matter. But I'm gonna say this guys, if there's something that's worth losing a friendship for, just because the substance of what you're saying is deeply offensive, I hope you're able to do that in the name of Christ, before and beyond and above all other things. Because that actually speaks to the power of this thing you believe. When you're actually willing to lose a friend just to speak the truth in gentleness, even though you know they're gonna hate it, That again is a supernatural witness to how compelling Christ is to you. It's in the parables where Jesus says things like this, the gospel, my kingdom is like a pearl of great price. Someone goes and just sells everything they have to have that. You're actually showing people that not the whole world and honestly, not even the fleeting friendships that you could have in the world are worth so much to you as Christ himself. And so this is why our doctrines, guys, our doctrines, the very things that we believe, do the work of defending the Christian faith when we can articulate them in a compelling way. They set themselves apart as divine truths when you really understand them. That's why this whole course is gonna be what, where, and why. That's why we're going that route. Who's on first? Guys, I'll also say how we engage in apologetics. I mean, we kind of touched on this. Belief in this doctrine of eternal punishment has everything to do with our boldness and being ready to confront sin and error. Every one of you know that if you saw someone in an imminent state of, you know, dying, You would operate with a different sort of boldness. There is, inevitably, if you're going to do apologetics, a moment of boldness where you're just gonna have to say things that you can hardly actually believe you're saying because they're that insane. You know the mindset of the person you're talking to. And you can imagine it's like that in an intervention. You know, when you sit down and talk with someone and try to tell a fentanyl addict to quit doing what they're doing, everything you're saying is nuts. Like if you try to step into their mind. But understanding this reality of eternal conscious torment is what's going to draw out of you this sense of need for the moment to do that. We've gotta be willing to confront people about the reality of their sin, that they are a sinner, even things that they fundamentally don't believe, that at the root of that is an anger that's been there for so long that you don't even think of calling it that anymore. And ultimately, your boldness to speak the scriptures. If you can take it in today that it is not a bad thing, albeit with grace and gentleness to quote Bible verses to people who say they don't believe the Bible and that they hate the Bible and that that's a real apologetic, if you leave believing that alone, you've believed something very important today. How many people have ever kind of, you've pulled back to even mention a Bible verse to someone because you're like, I know they hate it and they don't believe it. Anyone ever been there? Okay. I've got a cousin, and she's very, very outspoken about her conversion. She grew up in a home that was nominally Christian, and she went off the rails. a very, very, very intense life of sin. She is very forthright in telling her testimony, and so I'm not disclosing any details that she hasn't publicly, in the form of sharing her testimony before multiple people share it. She fell into witchcraft, fell into prostitution, she lived in Taiwan in the most bizarre circumstances for about four years in that line of work, doing those sorts of things. Her mom had a prayer board in her house and she'd have her name on that prayer board. She would go up and erase her name from that prayer board. There would be, you know, scripture. It was just in the air in her world. She had one of the most radical conversions of anyone I've ever known in my entire life. She glows, glows with Christ and for, you know, over a decade now. But you really have to believe that the word of God is a means of grace, and it's a more powerful means of grace for people's conversion than really brilliant facts about the latest science that confirms God, and we'll talk about these things, or evidence that Jesus existed or rose from, the word of God is powerful. It is a sword, and you shouldn't be afraid to use it. With gentleness, and with all of the things we have here, not quarrelsome, and with patience. All right, so any questions at this point that people wanna get off about this place that we started? We started at the end, and I hope it's apparent why. This is a doctrine that's attacked. You need to know where the Bible teaches it, why the Bible teaches it. We gave three reasons. Last time I'm gonna repeat them. First, it makes this life consequential like no other belief system ever. It is why we would go out preaching. Number two, it tells us about the mental state of unbelief in its most severe form so that when we see it now, we can recognize it's already lied to well in unbelieving hearts here and now. And then three, it tells us all about our demeanor when we engage apologetics. We must go as those who have been changed supernaturally and we're not, Attempting to just simply reason in our own strength. We reason from a place of those who have experiential knowledge of redemption You guys got that you're taking notes. Those are why I'm gonna ask you why this is important next week Jackie's got a question Yeah question 84 what doth every sin deserve and in fact, we've only got Yeah, we've got 15 minutes, and so we'll do a few more questions if anyone has them. Rich? Do you think the concept of the consequence or eternal consequence of this life is the linchpin of that? And if someone doesn't, like, say, you know, care about the notion of consequences for this life, like a hardcore existentialist or someone who's in a life of hedonism and pleasure for the sake of this life alone, will be like you know willing to track with you if they just forget the whole thing right i don't care about consequences in life i'm living me right now yeah this life alone and the pleasure and freedom of everyone around me right rich is bringing up an important point you will meet people are like i don't care i just don't i don't care there are a few things you gotta gotta do with that For the person who says they don't care about eternal consequences, thinking about this in terms of an intervention, you've gotta A, have it in your mind, have I crafted the scenario for this intervention to have any effect? Because we all know if you just go up to a fentanyl addict who's in the middle of trying to get their fix, they don't care. And if you attempt to have an impromptu intervention, it's probably not gonna, it's a good chance it has no effect. And that's where it comes into effect what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 7 verse 7 to 8, don't cast your pearls before swine. If you try to get in front of that person, he actually says he'll tear you to pieces. And you do need to recognize when the fool is in the midst of their very hot folly, and getting in between them and their goal is going to be to your detriment. That's what everybody does who knows an addict. You know you can't just go at it at any moment and expect results. I'm not saying you don't still give it a shot and, you know, fire one off even. You know, the wages of sin is death and, you know, it's not temporary and you don't want to, but it's kind of like just a passing, you know, plea. But then you take a different scenario, like a family member who's in that state of mind who might allow you to have that sort of forum. You know, it's interesting, I think of my cousin Maren. She was that person who, she's erasing her name from the prayer board, vehemently against this thing. And here's the thing, when she became a believer, She became an insane evangelist believer. She'd go up to those coffee stands with bikini baristas and borderline harass them with the gospel. But I might even say that no one else could probably quite pull that off the way that she did. And that's when you ask yourself, what unique position am I in? If you have a family member who's a fentanyl addict, they probably can get lured into an intervention. And that's when you start assessing what specific targets has the Lord really providentially placed me in to intercede with. It's also worth noting that Jesus frankly does have very subtle witnesses as well. Recognizing that someone's in this state of hard and unbelief, Jesus does not go to every single individual and fall to their knees. In fact, Jesus is incredibly, He's pretty calm about the whole thing, most of the time. This is another thing about understanding, if we really believe the word of God is powerful, then it means that we don't have to necessarily put our oomph into that sword. The sword, with the smallest little prick, is more mighty than we tend to give it credit for. And so we talk more about apologetic method, but we have to go out as if we understand it's not the power of our thrust that's gonna get somebody, but the word itself. But so, two points. One, don't cast your pearls before swine. If in your judgment you're able to decipher this person is just violently against this, they are in no state of mind to hear a word I have to say. That's what I do when I'm in the cafe house and I say, hey, have you heard the gospel? And people are like, you know, I don't wanna talk to you. I usually go for one more question after. It's because I know I'm in safe territory in the cafe house. But after that, then I just, I let him be. Any other questions? And the second one is, what providential targets, even to those hardened in belief, has God uniquely put you in a position to witness to? And, you know, that's really important. Like for me, I'll be honest, I'm not as, I don't want to use the word aggressive, but I'm probably not as eccentric. Is that even the right word? I don't reach out to women in the cafe house as much as I do men, and especially men who are in their 40s and seem successful. I'll tell you right now, there is probably not a more, in my experience, swine class to meet than just that one right there. If you're white in your 40s and successful, you are not going to be sold anything, you're smarter than everybody, you've made it. If you're a minority, if you're female, if you're young, if you're homeless, if you are in any way on the traditional not winning side of reality, I've almost universally seen softer hearts. The things that I've heard from people in that category are insane. Just truly insane. Yeah, that was the guy who told me when I was like, well, if you're standing before God in judgment, what do you say? He's like, I'm a pretty good talker, I think. I mean, this is insane. This is crazy. Like, what do you get? Like, I'm going to wash dishes? Like, you know, and come in the back door? Like, let's work out a deal like this. insane I mean I there was one of the few times I actually just I had to flat-out laugh I couldn't I usually can restrain myself but it was so insane and that obviously didn't work out super well yeah no he's like I've got philosopher friends smarter than you it's like it's like I like it was just rolling with him like I just I didn't know what to do with this guy but anyone else yeah Tim said something about how if we don't, we're not, we don't evangelize. So share the gospel that we get. Yeah, if you mind. So this is, this is the way I felt about it. I'm not calling this truth. I'm just saying like, if, if I know, Kevin, my boss, Ben, my friend at work, Nick, two Nicks, another Tim, another Andy. If they're on the brink of eternal hell, There was a guy named Lee who died of cancer and I had to go to his house beforehand and share the gospel with him because I was like if he Doesn't hear Like I think of the watchman. What was it? Ezekiel I've made you a watchman if you do not tell others And they die in their sins then your blood is on earth and their blood is on on you if you tell them And they die in their sins, then you're absolved of their and I feel like in some sense God is Could be wrong about this, but God is making us watchmen in that manner And I I don't know doctrinally whether or not that's sound or not, but it just seems to me like The stakes are so high that I would have to be pretty hard-hearted not to feel compelled to share the gospel with people somehow or other. And you know what? Here's what I want to say, a few things about that. You're absolutely right. This onus is placed on us in the word. We do have this responsibility as a church. We pray that prayer at the end of every service for a reason to be a witness. I want to say a few things. Number one, Do not underestimate how powerful your witness is simply as a Christian and a Christ follower. This is where we believe in the efficacy of the sacraments and your baptism is meaningful. People probably know you're a Christian, Tim, who you maybe have not spoken all of the details of the gospel to. And I want to put that out there for you guys as Christians. Your witness is more mighty than you think it is. Your baptism is more mighty than you think it is. And people knowing you're a Christian, your existence as a Christian, joyful and happy and hardworking and even sometimes sinning and then repenting, That contributes to the witness of maybe whomever else might be directly speaking the gospel to these people. Like, my cousin Maren was getting it hard from her parents, but she knew other Christians who were adding to that witness by their very existence. I'm gonna put that out there. It doesn't take Dionys off you to actually speak. You know, we do have a calling to do that, especially when the time comes. But the third thing I wanna say is this. I just totally lost my train of thought. Hold on. Yeah. It is important for you to know that in hell, it's very clear who the unbelievers are going to be mad at. And it's not any one of you. In fact, in that passage, Jesus says, you had opportunity to honor me if you would have just fed my people. to the least that you neglected, tore down, ridiculed, the least of these of my sheep, you did so to me. If your disposition had even just been different to my people, you would have been not far from the kingdom of God, is what Jesus is saying in the final judgment. At the end of the day, all of their anger will be toward him. And it's important you know that. No one is going to be in hell hating Tim Marston or Michael Morales or Adrian or anyone else going, why didn't they do more? The picture of the story of Lazarus and the rich man is it's you failed. You failed us, Lord. He will be the aggregate of all human hatred in hell. He will be the point where it's aggregated to. So, the last thing I do want to say is this, you know, Josh had brought up, you know, just situations of people who are in total states of, you know, ignorance in regard to the gospel. It's important to know in the Old Testament, there are people outside of the covenant of God in Israel, who, you know, under the Noahic covenant, know the Lord and are saved. I would simply say the Bible does not give us much encouragement to the effect that there are people like that still on the earth today. The picture is that the farther people get from these covenant administrations and revelation from God, the more hardened they get in a path of unbelief. And here's the thing. I would just simply say the idea that maybe there's any knowledge from the Noahic covenant that people might have on earth to be saved, if they do, the Lord has not told us about it, and presumably so that we are not in the least anything but ambitious to go and preach the gospel to all nations. And that's where we're at as Christians. The only thing that could give us confidence that a people has salvation is that they have Christ. And we really have to stop there with a hard stop because the Bible hasn't given us positive indication to the effect that the Lord has preserved this knowledge of the Noahic covenant that was made with Noah and all of his sons. So you better get out there and share Christ. That's really the picture that it gives. And people love to put that as a reason for why they're not gonna believe the gospel. What about the people who haven't heard? I always just love to be like, look, guy, what about them? There's you and there's your sin and there's the Savior. What are you gonna do? Go ahead, Scott. Well, it even says like one of our favorite verses as evangelicals is John 3, 16, which is a great verse. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. And we don't often keep reading, but you keep reading and it starts to touch on this. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world through him might be saved. And it goes on to say, Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that light has come into the world, and people love the darkness rather than the light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. Right. So people don't go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus. Right. People go to hell because their works are evil, and that's everyone. And they love the darkness. And they love the darkness. Right. And Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn the world. He came into the world to save the world. Right. Right. But it's man's works that condense him. Right. So you think about the people who've never heard of Christ, They haven't gotten a raw deal. Those of us who have heard of Christ have gotten mercy, to be sure, but there's no inequality or injustice with God for those who haven't ever heard of Christ because it's their works and their love of the darkness that condemns them. Right. Happily seconding the rebellion of Adam. Well friends, we have- I know we're long, and I apologize if this is too big a question. But we're using the terms, you know, claiming the gospel, sharing the gospel, and apologetics. I wonder if you could maybe comment for a moment on what is the difference between the apologetic endeavor and the Great Commission? Obviously they overlap, and we're almost talking about the same thing here, but what really is the difference, and why are we talking about apologetics, not just a share the gospel? Right, so for example, you share the gospel with someone, and you presume that they know themselves to be a sinner, because that's a safe assumption, even if they don't admit it, and then you share with them that Christ is the solution, the atonement for sin, and the only point of deliverance for the consequences of sin. The minute that person asks a question and says, uh, OBS because this, now you're engaging in apologetics. Now you're offering a defense. It's not a mere proclamation. And I would simply say on the front end, yes, proclamation is the beginning of apologetics. Before someone can ask you a reason for the faith that you have, it presupposes either they know the gospel and they know you believe it, so maybe you did skip that step because they're like, it's ridiculous that one man could die for everyone else. But the minute you start answering objections, Now you're engaging in apologetics. Now we see when we're preaching, we're always, I mean, I'm trying to anticipate objections and things like that. That is a specific job of the minister, but it's also a general call for all believers. And so it's that second part. And that's why today we didn't just learn what we believe and where, but hopefully you're more articulate about why. Hopefully you have a deeper sense of why this doctrine is utterly important. It's otherwise chided by the unbeliever, but it's actually what renders Christianity significant, and it's this doctrine that actually renders every single human life of paramount significance in terms of what we do here and now. So we'll stop there, and the last thing we'll do is we're going to do the catechism question. I'll read portions of it, you say it back, and then we're going to sing the doxology, and I'll say a quick prayer for everybody. Did we get a sheet passed around? Nice. Did you just write everybody's name, maybe? Or did you pass it around? I passed it around. Oh, nice, nice. Awesome. Well, I will send you the notes from this class. I will send you the notes of all future classes. I will send you a reminder email that class is coming. And this class will actually be far better for you if you come every time because it builds. You've started with this doctrine tells you why this is important. Each step will render this whole endeavor more coherent. Okay, here we go. So you guys are gonna repeat after me. This is a Westminster Shorter Catechism Question 84. What doth every sin deserve? Just say it. What doth every sin deserve? Every sin deserveth God's wrath and curse. both in this life and that which is to come. Both in this life and that which is to come. And then our proof text is gonna be Matthew 25, 46, just say that. Matthew 25, 46. These will go away into eternal punishment. These will go away into eternal punishment. But the righteous into eternal life. But the righteous into eternal life. All right, sing the doxology. Praise God from whom all blessings flow. Praise Him all creatures here below. Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts. Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen. I'll say a brief prayer for you guys. Lord Jesus, I pray that we would leave this place tonight, especially dwelling on what we've been saved from. Lord, having these meditations blessed by your spirit, that we could really contemplate and look straight in the eye what we deserve, who we are, and what we have been given instead, eternal life, Lord, and I pray that this truth would just be that for which our heart beats, that we know ourselves to be redeemed, that we affirm you in your judgment, and now, nevertheless, we are blessed to praise you for eternal life undeserved. God, I pray that that would be the characteristic quality of Trinitas people. Pray it would be the characteristic quality of your church all over the earth. In Jesus' mighty name we pray, amen.