Today on the show, we're going to be talking about the largest Christian cult you've never heard of. Actually, many of my listeners have. Welcome to the Youth Apologetics Training Podcast. Alright, welcome back guys again. This is Michael Bohm yet today. We're going to be talking about the new Apostolic Reformation This is a topic that I've touched on and have done several podcasts on today We're going to take a little bit of a different spin. We're going to be talking to Merle Hansel And she has a booklet, you can find it on Amazon, I highly recommend it. It's short, but it's very to the point and really tells you everything you need to know about the New Apostolic Reformation. It's the kind of booklet that is perfect to give somebody who might be involved with the movement, but not realize just what they've gotten into. Okay, and so as we progress through this podcast, I think you'll start to get a feel for the book. Although, I'm taking it, there are several things that were said in this little booklet, again, beware of the new apostolic reformation, that triggered a few thoughts in my mind. And I realized, you know, I was a part of this movement without even knowing it for many years. I never even heard the words, as far as I know, I never heard the words New Apostolic Reformation, yet we were part of this movement. If you were to ask anybody in the church, maybe perhaps save the pastor himself, I don't think anybody in the church would have even realized or known what the New Apostolic Reformation was. The pastor, probably. The point is we were submitting to these apostles and prophets that were part of this network. And I don't know for sure, but I would imagine our pastor was basically a card-carrying member of this movement. It's really hard to say, but there's no doubt that we were part of it. And as I was part of it, now I'm looking back and I'm thinking, you know, it really felt like a cult. And I know I've alluded to that many times. Merle Hansel also has another booklet that you're gonna find out about in the coming podcasts called Narrow is the Way, Have You Really Found It? Where there is a collection of several testimonies. I should have counted before hitting the record button. I'm just gonna say somewhere around 10 testimonies, give or take, okay? And each of them are from various people who have left the New Apostolic Reformation movement. And as you're going through these testimonies, and also the other booklet, Beware of the New Apostolic Reformation, you begin to see this common thread amongst all of them. Don't question leadership. No, you're supposed to blindly submit to their authority. If you question the leadership, you will be called rebellious, and you've got a spirit of Jezebel, and you'll be mocked, and you'll be looked down upon, and you'll be somehow pushed out of the inner circle. Many of us were part of the inner circle, you know, and suddenly you're Quote-unquote, anointing has been called into question and your salvation is being called into question. And if you keep asking questions, you'll find yourself kicked out of the church. And just like the Jehovah's Witnesses, there's like a disfellowshipping. that takes place. So anyway, I've gabbed on long enough. This is going to be a really interesting podcast. Merle knows her stuff. A little bit about Merle. She spent a large amount of time in her early life searching for truth and peace with God. She explored various different avenues including Hinduism, other eastern religions and dabbling in the new age before coming to Christ. Okay, so we have a lot in common actually. And going on here, after being part of the Toronto movement in the 90s, I was part of that as well, her life radically changed again when she became increasingly aware of the false teachings invading the body of Christ today. Merle is a researcher and co-founder of the Sound Word Ministry, and has compiled some of her findings in two booklets entitled, Beware of the New Apostolic Reformation, and also Narrow is the Way, Have You Really Found It? And so without further ado, guys, Merle, welcome to the Youth Apologetics Training Podcast. Thank you. It's really good to be here. So friends, today we're going to be talking about the New Apostolic Reformation. I know many of you are familiar with this. We've talked about it a few times before. Today we're going to be talking to Merle Hansel, and she's going to have a little bit of a different take on it. She's going to have some quotes that I've never dug up and presented to you guys either. Really interesting show ahead of us. Merle has a background in the New Apostolic Reformation. She came out of this movement, and actually, I'm just going to let you... Merle, tell my listeners what happened. How did you get involved, and how did you come out? And so it really goes back to Toronto, and I spent many, many years... I was at Toronto several times, and I spent many years receiving the anointing, and actually It then turned into praying for people to receive the anointing. And I also actually trained altar ministry teams as to how to release the anointing, if I can use those words. And after a while, I really began to see that things just weren't quite right. And I started attending a church. It was actually an evangelical church. and uh... the pastor after to read a book by chuck pierce i had no idea anything uh... i'd like to get glimpses of things that were just not quite right there too but we were asked to read a book by chuck pierce and everybody was raving about this book and uh... so i started to read it and i couldn't believe I just couldn't believe what I was reading from this book. Things like, he was saying that we needed to know what tribe we were from to come boldly before the throne. And I knew that that was in direct conflict with Scripture, because the Scripture says we can come boldly. And then, in the back of the book, he talked about the stones, and the tribes, and the Jewish alphabet, and the astrological signs, and he'd lump them together each month, and then he would talk about what would happen each month. He gave almost like a prediction each month. Things like, if we didn't worship brilliantly enough, something terrible was going to happen. uh... and then he would talk about another month stomach problems this month lots of stomach problems uh... well anyway uh... and the evil eye is lurking at your door if you don't do this or that and just so many things that we must do and he kept using the word must all through the book well i couldn't believe what i was reading and i couldn't believe that nobody else was seeing what i was seeing and uh... I thought to myself, where is he getting this from? Because he didn't cite anything, he didn't use scripture, and I typed in Jewish astrology, and up came almost word-for-word from the Kabbalah. And so that was a real red flag for me, and I started reading. I thought, well, what else is being taught. I mean, what other false things are being taught out there? So I started researching, and I found NAR through that, and I decided that I had to ask my pastor what he was believing about this, and did he believe the things of Chuck Pearson? Of course, he denied it. He denied that he believed the things that were in that book, but When I approached him about, I just asked him some questions. I didn't believe the response that I got. It was very hostile. And, um, that's a, that's a whole other story. Yeah. And Chuck Pierce is he's no small name within this movement. Well, he's actually the head of it now. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, Peter Wagner, uh, retired, so to speak, and he passed the baton. to Chuck Pierce, and he passed it to actually several people. Cindy Jacobs, at least this is the way it was about a year ago, or two years ago, and Cindy Jacobs is the leader of the prayer networks all over the world, and I believe Cheyenne is the leader of the Wagner Institute, and there's like different people that have different responsibilities, but Chuck Pierce is the head of the Global Spheres Network now, That's what it's called. And yes, he is very high up. So your pastor got very hostile. What happened after that? Well, I asked him three questions. I asked him, did he ever hear of the New Apostolic Reformation? Because at that point, I was seeing that things were really getting dark. The more I looked, the darker it was getting. But I really didn't know. uh... the whole story and i so i asked him i knew that he was had relationships with some of the higher people in our but he denied it he said no i never heard of it so i thought that was rather strange uh... at that time you know he was still my pastor i was really looking for answers and um... then i asked him if he was a dominionist And he laughed and he said, no, I'm not a dominionist. And although later I realized that he was teaching that part of it from the pulpit. But the last question was really concerning. And I asked him, why was he making these networks? What were the networks for? And I asked him really very innocently. I wasn't attacking in any way or I was just curious to know what was happening. And he said to me, I don't know. And I said, you don't know what the networks are for? And he said, I just live day by day. And I went, Whoa, what is he hiding here? So I, that was the end of the meeting. And nine days later, I was called in. and he told me that there were accusations against me, and mind you, you know, I had ministered in the church for four years, I was leading ministries there, and I was doing counseling in the church, I was leading a Bible study, and there was never any complaint about me, and yet suddenly there were accusations And it wasn't the kind of accusations where he would ask me, you know, did you do this? It wasn't like that. It was like, you did this. And it was really shocking. It was, it was really one of the worst meetings I think I've ever had without being melodramatic. But the accusations were vague too. And, and sometimes he wouldn't tell me who said what, except for one woman. uh... and i i thought her leader and she said she had never said anything so i don't know about that but uh... went so i denied the things that were being said and in spite of that he said that all leadership was being taken away that day effective immediately i was planning a conference at the time and everything was just stripped away that day and when i asked him why he said because i intimidated a woman in the church, and that he had to see if we were still on the same page. Well, I understood the second one, but it didn't stop at that. I soon learned that he was interrogating people in the church, asking them who my friends were, what I was teaching in my Bible class, who was attending, and even what I was handing out. And I was really devastated. I became an enemy overnight. and he said he was going to take a month and to see where this was going to go. Well, I started to put the pieces together and my husband and I decided to leave before the month was up, because we thought it would be fruitless to go through another meeting. It was really horrendous and, you know, I just didn't want to put myself through that again. But it still didn't stop there. Pastors and believers in my community came to me and told me that things that he was saying about me, and they were just absolute lies. And I also learned that from several different people that the pastor, my former pastor, told them that they were not to speak to me. And I asked them if it was a cult or a church. But I've never left a church like that before, and I really felt like I wanted to confront him and try and make some kind of peace with him and reconcile with him because he used to talk about reconciliation all the time. He was always reconciling with different groups and Native Americans. And so I set up a meeting with a third party because I just didn't want to... I thought that would be the way to go. But he refused. He refused to meet with me and I I said to him face to face, I said, you know, it would be nice for you to talk to me instead of talking about me behind my back. But he refused all my invitations, so I eventually let it go. So that's what happens when you try to ask some questions. It's really not funny. It was very hard. Yeah, I had a very similar experience, and I know what you mean. Your testimony, that's very common when you... I'm actually thinking of titling this podcast, The NAR, The Largest Christian Cult You've Never Heard Of, because... It's true. I hate to call it a cult, but at the same time, I've reported on so many different cults in this podcast. I mean, just so many of them. And this movement fits about 90% of the signs of a cult. And what you experience is exactly that. When you question the words of your pastor or one of the accepted prophets or apostles that are part of this movement, Never mind what scripture you might bring to the table. Never mind that Paul in Acts chapter 17 verse 11, you know, commends the Bereans for testing what he's saying and searching the scriptures to find out whether Paul, an apostle, what he was saying was true. That doesn't happen. No, in this movement and many other cults, when you question the pastor or an apostle or prophet, you're attacked. And it goes, I mean, forget logic, forget what arguments you may have, what merit your arguments may have. They're going to go at you personally. And even in some instances, they'll even make up lies about you. Which is, that's tragic. That is tragic. And I'm sorry that happened to you. Yeah. I had a very similar thing happen to me when I came out, and I just, I asked a few questions. I was the youth pastor. I was teaching every week. I mean, things were really good, but then I asked a few questions because some things weren't adding up with the scripture. And boy, the pastor turned on me. I mean, he just turned on a dime. And pretty quickly I had to pass all of my sermon notes through him. Things went really sour. When I left, I wrote out a really friendly letter. There was no arrogance. There was no hostility. I mean, it was very humble and loving, but, guys, I love you, but I have to go, and here are my scriptural reasons why. Well, he took that letter the following Sunday in front of the congregation and did an entire Sunday sermon in these types of churches. You don't have a 45-minute sermon. No, no. We would show up at like 8.30 in the morning, and we'd go until about 1 or 2 in the afternoon. So if you can imagine, I mean, that whole time, except for worship, he was bad-mouthing me. He would read just little excerpts of the letter and then go on, basically, that I had Stepped out from under my covering and I was walking in a spirit of rebellion, you know these types of things and and that my wife Soon to be wife the woman. No wait, we were married at that point. Yeah, sorry. Uh-huh that she had a she had a spirit of Jezebel and he saw this coming and she's leading me away from the Lord all these horrible things and nobody from the congregation would dare to talk to me for probably a good two, three years. And even now when I bump into them, there's definitely this space. In fact, and I don't know if you've ever encountered this, but when they ask you, how are you doing? If any of them actually are friendly enough to ask, you get this feeling that they're really expecting you to say, oh man, It's terrible. Oh, my life has been in ruins ever since I left." And, you know, when we tell them, oh, things are great, they always kind of, they're taken aback. They kind of jerk their head back a little bit and look at you sideways like, oh, well, really? Because they don't expect me to say, well, things are actually really good. They're great. But anyway. People, I don't think they really listen to him. there was a there was a a little bit of a strain for a while but then people began to tell me what he was saying and they were in tears i mean i would people in the marketplace in tears telling me that that they were not allowed to talk to me one woman even said she'd have to do it in secret and uh... the ironic thing is some of these people are my best friends now and they've left so it it really kinda worked out very well See, yeah, that's just like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and so many other cults. When you leave, you're kind of blacklisted. You're shunned. And people aren't supposed to talk to you. Most likely because the pastor's afraid you're going to infect them with a religious or a rebellious spirit. But anyway, yeah, I'm sorry. I don't mean to laugh. I've got a lot of pain, too. I've been through a lot coming out of this. Anyway, it was a very painful time. I guess going back to our outline, which we've never really touched yet, really quick, most of my listeners, they know what the New Apostolic Reformation is. But for those who might be new, who just kind of stumbled upon this, in a nutshell, who is the NAR? What types of things do they believe? Well, C. Peter Wagner coined the name, and many people consider him the founder, but it's made up of thousands of networks of churches, ministries, and self-appointed apostles and prophets and individuals with common beliefs and a common agenda. And as you know, there's no membership, but if your church aspires to the teachings and practices of NAR, then you're basically involved and a member of it. And if you are, believing some of these things and practicing it. You're a member as well. To sum it up, it's basically a false movement that is globally taking over biblical Christianity. So the New Apostolic Reformation, there's this huge network of apostles and prophets, and that apostles and prophets are for today, and that every local church leader needs to submit to one of these regional apostles. And so there's almost like this, I hate to compare it this way, but almost like the Roman Catholic Church where there is this hierarchy. And at the top, well, you've got kind of your head apostle, Chuck Pierce. He's the current pope, if you will. And then there's this hierarchy of apostles filtering down and prophets mixed in there. And so, so many of you, my friends who are listening, might be part of a church where you don't even realize it, but your pastor is reading books by these apostles and prophets, and whether he's vocalized that he's submitting to an apostle or not, I guess doesn't matter as much as he's starting to submit himself to these teachings of these apostles. Now, Merle, how big is the New Apostolic Reformation? It's huge, and it's everywhere. It's probably in every country, every continent, every state, city, and to some degree, in some way, just about every church. I belong to a NARA watchdog group on Facebook, and there are members from all over the world, United States, Europe, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and they're all reporting the same corruptions of biblical things happening. You know, Peter Wagner, by his own admission, reports that NARA is growing faster than Islam, And it's changing the shape of Christianity in big ways. Yes, it is. And speaking of Islam, and you already brought up Dominionism. Dominionism is, okay, Christians aren't running around cutting people's heads off or running into crowded areas with bombs. But the Dominionism stresses the idea that we as Christians must subdue the earth before Christ can return. we have to take over these seven areas of influence. They refer to this as the seven mountain mandate. I'm going to do this from memory and I'm probably going to botch it, but there's seven areas, government, education, arts, entertainment, family, religion, politics, and so these seven different areas that we as a church need to take over and we actually have to, I mean, really take over the governments of the world and all of culture before Christ can return, which anybody who reads the book of Revelation is not going to walk away with that interpretation. it blows me away. In fact, it's interesting, too, that they call it the Seven Mountain Mandate. I don't want to go too far with this comparison, but there is this Seven Hills that's talked about in the Book of Revelation, and it's not spoken about in a positive light. But I wouldn't want to go too far with that. I just think it's odd that they chose Seven Mountain, you know, called it a mountain, Seven Mountains. Yes, I wondered about that, too. They also believe that there was a, they call it a paradigm shift, and that the mandate of the church changed from winning souls to transforming society, like you just mentioned, and creating a physical kingdom on earth. So the mandate changed. Okay, when I was part of this movement, I was in a church. Nobody ever mentioned, as far as I can remember, ever mentioned the New Apostolic Reformation or NAR or NAR. Nothing. It was never mentioned. But having said that, we went to conferences up in Toronto, the Toronto Revival. And you were there, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was I was twitching with the rest of them. Yeah. And I'm embarrassed to say and Lou Engle and oh, what was that pastor's name up in Colorado Springs? He was involved with an illicit affair with another man. Oh, gosh. Oh, I know who you mean. Oh, that guy. Dang, I can't remember his name. But so many of these different guys, Rick Joyner, very much involved with Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, so many of these different big name New Apostolic Reformation guys, our pastor submitted to a local apostle and was meeting with all kinds of prophets. We would have apostles come and speak at our church. We were part of the New Apostolic Reformation. Having said that, I never heard that term before. Ever. No. You think that's common? Well, I was a leader in my former church. I had no clue what pastor was doing, and the networks, like I said, that he was building was a part of a huge picture. And I also went to the conferences with some of their biggest leaders, and New Apostolic Reformation and their agenda was never mentioned. and i would venture to get that ninety eight percent of the thousands that were there didn't know either uh... i think they know they're radical and i think they're afraid of being exposed and losing followers because well i know that uh... because their follow their followers provide them with money and power in a platform to influence the public and to further their plans and i think another reason is that they saw what happened in the 40s with the New Order of the Lateran, and they remembered what happened there. As you know, the Lateran was almost completely dissolved, because the Assemblies of God took a very bold stand, and drew up resolutions declaring that their beliefs and practices were heretical. And if you look at the latter reign and what they believed, and you look at NAR and what they believe, it's almost identical. So it's not a new thing at all. It's, it's, you know, they keep saying that this is a new thing, but it really isn't new at all. And, you know, something you kind of touched on there that I've, I've, I, I gotta be careful in how I say this. I have secretly wondered how many of the leaders within this movement Are not believers at all, but are doing it for the money and the power. I'm sure the beliefs of this movement really opened them up for a lot of imposters to sneak in. who are hungry for power and money. I've met several of these leaders who clearly, well, I shouldn't say clearly, but after talking to them for a while, they did not have any of the fruit of a real believer, but they did things that were horrendous, like stealing houses from people that were on their deathbed and stealing it out from under them so that the kids didn't get the house, but the church did. These types of things, we are going, is not what a Christian does. That is not Christian. And I don't, you know, I just, I don't know. I guess I want to throw that in there, that I do think that there are those that are within the leadership of this movement that are there just to abuse, you know, monetarily and just having that power. Well, even the secrecy is a form of abuse, don't you think? Like, even the secrecy of it all, that the people in The local churches don't know what's going on. Very true. Yeah. And when you try to find out what is going on, you're villainized. Suddenly you have a rebellious spirit. You've got a spirit of Jezebel, this, that, and the other. And then any number of things can start being said about you. People start shunning you. And just like the Jehovah's Witnesses, you get disfellowshipped if you keep it up. Yeah. you know it'd be dominionist views are troubling enough but i think what is that one of the biggest concerns that i have is their strong emphasis on the occult and new age uh... when i first got saved we have to be warned about new age and getting involved in it but now i see people doing the actual things that we were warned against And that is very concerning to me. There are so many parallels to be drawn between NAR and the New Age. In fact, you gave a couple books A couple quotes in your booklet. Again, beware of the new apostolic reformation that are alarming. For example, see Peter Wagner, the founder of this movement. Listen to this quote, friends. I suggest that it may be possible to receive selected but valid information from the world of darkness itself. Certain people such as shamans, witch doctors, practitioners of eastern religions, new age gurus, or professors of the occult on university faculties are examples of the kind of people who may have much more extensive knowledge of the spirit world than most Christians have. Some of the information they furnish is accurate. Many of them are not only intelligent, but they are also sincere people of integrity. I just about fell out of my chair when I read that. Something I didn't tell you, Merle, is that I come out of the New Age and the occult. Oh, I practiced for years, and my wife did before I met her. She was in the Wicca. And all of these things that you see from within the New Apostolic Reformation, things like, you know, having visions of angels and demons, there's always this idea of hidden esoteric knowledge. astral travel, contemplative prayer, you know, emptying your mind and allowing voices to speak to you. You have keyword here, quantum mysticism. Oh my goodness. All these things, trances, meditation, entering into portholes, opening portholes. This is all stuff that you get from the world of the occult. Now, I know my own pastor would say, yeah, well, Satan's the greatest counterfeiter. Yeah, I hear that all the time. There's got to be the real thing if it's being counterfeited. Which, you know, my response to him when he said that was, well, can you show me in the Bible where this stuff was happening? Now, obviously, there are situations where God himself pulled people into heaven and spoke with them, these types of situations. But you're not to just sit down and try to empty your mind and meditate. Yeah, we're not supposed to go after it or learn how to do it. If God wants to do it, He can do anything He wants. And the New Age says that everyone has uncharted human potential. But Norah says that every believer has untapped prophetic potential. So, I mean, there's so many parallels that you can draw. both have the fascination to receive supernatural information from higher powers, such as angelic beings, and I think it's gotten to the point where they actually believe that angels can bring them truth, can bring truth. That happened all the time at the church I was at. We had a couple ladies there that would claim almost every Sunday that an angel would show up and impart various truths to them. I knew that was happening as they go into taking daily trips to heaven, going there for impartation from not only angels, but from departed saints and relatives. Well, that's dangerous. That would be what's referred to as necromancy. Yes. Not any different than pulling out a Ouija board or, you know, these types of things, having a seance. Oh, yeah. Yep. There is a lot going on within the New Apostolic Reformation that is very much New Age, very much a cult. Bill Johnson, he's a big name. He's always claiming that angel feathers are falling down from the rafters and gold dust and glory clouds. Of course, you've heard about the craze that was going on for a while where they would go to grave sites and lay upon various graves of evangelists of the past, or also some other people who are kind of part of this movement who have passed on, and they would try to pull the anointing from their bones. It's an embarrassment. I think it's very offensive to God. And I know that, you know, with all the weird stuff that would go down in our church, the people that left Almost every one of them that did leave the church I was going to is no longer a believer. They have completely, oh yeah, they totally turned their back on the faith because things were so strange. And just one day they woke up and said, this is a game. We're playing here. This isn't even real. Anyway, tragic. In your booklet, You see Peter Wagner several times on the importance of submitting to apostles and prophets, and he really stresses it in ways that I think is really important to mention. What are the things he says? Well, he's written many books about the apostolic, and he has said quite a lot about the subject. One of the things he said was that apostolic networks replace denominations. And remember, their agenda is a one-world global church. So anytime you hear the word government, apostolic government, they're talking about setting up their government in the churches as opposed to the various denominations. Another thing he said was, these pastors are convinced that they would not be able to reach their full destiny. That's a word that's used a lot. in serving God, apart from the spiritual covering of a nar-ordained apostle." And this quote reveals how important they think they are. When the apostles begin to rise by the thousands, we will be able to take the nations for Jesus Christ. The harvest cannot be brought in apart from this foundational apostolic office. If John Kelly is right, and John Kelly was the man that was the head of the International Coalition of Apostles for years, he might still be. The apostolic office is so important that it can mean the difference between heaven and hell for multitudes. And the last one I have is Contrary to what some people might think, however, it is not the responsibility of all believers, nor even of church pastors, to hear directly what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Apostles are the ones who have been given the primary responsibility of hearing what the Spirit is saying to the churches. And you know, the Word says, My sheep hear My voice. It's really that simple. It blows my mind. It does. It's even more mind-blowing that people receive it. They're accepting it as hearing it from God. Thousands of people are believing this stuff. And it gets into something I've spoken about in the past, where there's this covering theology that you must submit to a covering. And if you're not under your covering, and by covering, I mean, you have to submit to, okay, just like your children are to submit to their parents, and the wife is to submit to the husband, and then the husband slash whole family is to submit to a pastor, and then the pastor is supposed to submit to one of these regional apostles, and then of course the hierarchy just continues on up. If you step out from underneath that covering, I'm doing air quotes here, If you step out from underneath that covering, then you step under, basically, you... Something terrible is going to happen to you. Oh, yeah, yeah, you're open to all kinds of curses, you're going to get infested with demons, and you're going to have all kinds of financial problems. And your your health is going to get hit your family life's going to get all messed up. And I mean, and then, you know, of course, if there's anything wrong in your life, if you've ever stepped out from underneath the covering, everybody wants to point out all these problems, and say, it's your lack of faith in your, your rebellion, that's causing all these issues. Even up to, I've heard specifically one man say, concerning the death of another person, well, they stepped out from under their covering. And they were living in rebellion. And I mean, my jaw hit the floor. Are you kidding me? Yeah. But you also mentioned a bunch of quotes from Bill Hammond. I think these are even more shocking than what C. Peter Wagner said. Can you read some of those? Sure. Bill Hemon also wrote a lot about the subject of apostles. He wrote that it's almost impossible for individuals to humble themselves under God without humbling themselves in submission and relationship to Christ's delegated representatives, apostles, to His Church. So he's putting on the same playing field the humility that we have to the Lord as humbling themselves to these Apostles. Another one, too, similar to Peter Wagner, learn to recognize the true voice of God through His holy Apostles and Prophets. You are not in divine order unless you are an Apostle or under one. oh boy notice the brainwashing here you know the subtle teaching as to how much we need their leaders and this is what this is what cults do you know we talked about that you're not in divine order i mean who wouldn't want to be in divine order somebody who didn't know the word or is just getting into this initially um... the last one is the choice is ours to submit believe and become one with the whole body of Christ, or to rebel, refuse, stiffen our necks, and be devoured." And, again, notice the fear and the intimidation and the manipulation, and it's very cult-like. Again, you know, what does Bill Hammond mean, to be devoured? He doesn't explain it, he doesn't say. And he tries to suggest that if you don't submit, you're out of step with the rest of the body of Christ. So it becomes that everybody's doing it, you know, scaring people into submission. A true leader doesn't do that. A true leader is a servant. A true leader does not try to control people, of course. That's absolutely correct. When I first read these quotes in your booklet, again friends, this is Beware of the New Apostolic Reformation, I was reading through those quotes and I wrote right next to them, in all capital letters, CULT. Because that is the essence of a cult. There's long lists of signs of a cult. And I would say this one is the one that tops the list. When you are told you must submit to, and really, if you read the fine print here, blindly submit to somebody claiming to be an apostle or prophet. And if you don't, all these horrible things are going to start happening to you. And when you go into Mormonism, you must submit to the words of their leadership, their prophet, Jehovah's Witnesses. You have to submit to the governing body. Christian science, well, okay, Christian science, not so much, but Seventh-day Adventists, you need to submit to the words of Mary, not Mary Baker, Ellen G. White. So many of these different movements, and when you start stepping out from under that teaching, you know, even if you've got good scriptural questions, they're not taken into account. No, you have a spirit of rebellion, and now you're in trouble. And isn't it interesting that all the people that you just mentioned all started out hearing extra-biblical revelation from an angel or someone. That's right. That's right. Well, and if you really want to go off the reservation, Muhammad himself claimed to have visitations from the Archangel Gabriel. Yes. And he came up with his unholy Quran. And we see what that's done to the world. It's just... That's why it's so important to ask questions. We are encouraged in the Bible to ask questions and to examine all things carefully. I think another thing that comes into play here in regard to coming under a covering is the scripture they use to touch not God's anointed. And they really twist that to mean that people are not to question, and that they need their covering or their anointing. And, you know, David wasn't talking about physically, he was talking about physically striking a leader. He was never saying that we shouldn't ask questions. Right, right. You know, and not only that, he was specifically talking about Saul. Saul was anointed by God, he was anointed to be king. I mean, you know, Samuel even poured oil on his head and physically anointed him. This wasn't like a Holy Spirit anointing that we keep hearing this, you know, these types of phrases being pushed around within the New Apostolic Reformation and the Word of Faith movement and such. No, it was a physical pouring of oil on his head. He was anointed to be king. And God had chosen him to be that king at that time. And David was basically saying, I'm not going to go in there and take him out. I'm not going to touch God's anointed. And I've heard people say to me, you better be careful, because these are God's anointed, and I don't even want to hear it, because we are not supposed to touch God's anointed. So, we can understand why this segment of the church is the way it is, because if they're believing the lies, I think the enemy has very cleverly sold to believers that they are not to touch God's anointed, and they're not to judge. That's another one. So it's no wonder that people are not doing that. They're not seeking, examining things, and testing the spirits. And it's, I mean, I can see how this all came about. Okay, so for all the people that are listening here today who are buying into the idea that we really should be submitting to these men, and that we shouldn't be questioning their anointing, questioning their authority, questioning their doctrine, Christ himself, he warned us that in the last days there would be false prophets. And we can all agree on that, right? Amen? God, Christ even warned us that this would happen. Now, of course, we've got the Pope. He would be an example of a false prophet. We have Joseph Smith of the Mormons, and the man who came after him, Brigham Young. I want to say Rutherford. That was actually the Jehovah's Witnesses. Charles Taze Russell, and then following him up was the Judge Rutherford. All these different men. There are many different New Age men and women who claim to be a Christ, they claim to be a prophet, they claim to be speaking for God. So really, to all those listening, how do we know when somebody is anointed of God, if you will, somebody who is actually a real sent-from-God prophet? How can we know that? We're supposed to test them. You know, we see in Thessalonians, Paul says, test all things and hold fast to that which is good. Okay? We're supposed to test these things. Acts 17 verse 11, Paul commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures and finding out whether what he said was true or not. So many of these, you know, Peter, he was questioned. We're supposed to, even if somebody looks like they're from God, we're supposed to test the spirits. We're supposed to weigh what they say in regards to, in relation to what the scripture says, because we know the scriptures are from God. It's not wrong to test these guys. It's not wrong to ask questions. And that's, go ahead. spoke a lot about unity and love. He was, of course, the author of the love chapter in the Bible, but he had no tolerance for false teaching. He had no tolerance for wrong doctrine. And he even tells us in Galatians that if he or an angel or anybody brings a gospel that's different than what he taught, that they are to be cursed. And Paul called out people that were doing wrong things and teaching wrong things. And he named them. You know, that's a kind of a phrase going around. We shouldn't name names. But Paul did. That's right. Those are pretty strong words. I mean, they also say, you know, they don't want to hear anything negative. Well, Jesus said things that were negative. Not negative, but things that were going to happen that aren't too positive. And Paul also, he said, let them be cursed. I mean, can you imagine someone saying that today? So, yeah, there's just so much deception behind this. So much deception. And when you come out of it, you you're like shocked because you realize how many lives that you were fed and believed. And it's really, it's really the, it's not a teacher's fault. It's really a person, a person needs to search the scriptures and know what it says, know the truth. You know, it's interesting you brought up Galatians. The Judaizers were claiming apostolic authority. And Paul rebukes them for that. He rebukes them for bringing wrong teaching, bad doctrine. And, you know, in 2 Peter, Peter is rebuking false teachers. Jesus, he repeatedly rebukes the Pharisees and the Sadducees. These were respected leaders. Somebody could have said back then, touch not God's anointed, because these were men in leadership. It looks like they were anointed of God, if you will. They were in leadership, and they were confronted. It comes down to truth. What is truth? What does the Bible say? What does the scripture say? Should we believe that or should we believe some new revelation coming from somebody who basically was set in as an apostle or prophet by a bunch of other guys who were kind of set in as apostles and prophets from other guys. You follow that line back and somewhere somebody had to just declare themselves a prophet? Well, when you mention Jesus talking about false teaching, it's interesting that the very first thing that came out of his mouth when the disciples asked him what were going to be the signs of the end, the very first thing he said was, see to it that no one deceives you. And then he goes on to talk about wolves in sheep's clothing, if you missed it in that first he says it two more times in the same chapter it's the only thing that he talked about three times uh... in uh... in comparison to earthquakes and pestilence and and uh... famine so that's how important it is uh... and we are supposed to see to it that's that's a command absolutely And so, you know, anybody that's listening that disagrees with us, please think that through. Christ told us there were going to be false prophets. He told us in the last days, deception would be the big thing. The main thing going on in the last days is deception. And, you know, somebody might say, you and I are deceived, Merle. Okay, fine. Let's test it by the Word of God. Let's take these things. What are these apostles and prophets saying? And take it to the Word of God. When you look in the Old Testament, and you see scriptures like in Deuteronomy, where it speaks of when a prophet speaks a thing and it doesn't come to pass, you shouldn't be afraid of him. In other words, you shouldn't listen to that person. In the Old Testament, when somebody prophesied, and it turned out it was wrong, you were to take them outside of the camp and stone them. Now, we're not going to go dragging Chuck Pierce outside of the camp and stoning him. We don't do that nowadays. God's character hasn't changed. God is immutable. And God still holds his word in high regard. And he's very serious about people who prophesy presumptuously. They say, Oh, God told me this. God told me that. And God didn't tell him that. It's a very serious offense to the Lord. It's very offensive. And I've heard so many of these guys, Lou Engle, Rick Joyner, so many of them utter false prophecies. I would venture to guess every last one of them has a false prophecy under their name. I've heard even some of these bigger name apostles say, you know, not everybody gets it right every time. We're practicing. We're learning to be prophets. Well, that's not the way it was in the Old Testament. You don't get it wrong at all. You get it wrong once you have prophesied presumptuously you are a false prophet. Mike Bickle says that 80% of what he hears he throws away. He's not saying that the man's walk is not with God, but he says it's just dumb stuff. Now, how many people in this movement know that, have read that? uh... know that mike pickle who trains profits uh... well trained people so-called profits uh... he said he doesn't pay attention to them there at their distraction they're just dot it's just dumb stuff it's not real either all the things that that's quoted right from him by the way so how many people know that right my most of them just take every word as as that it's from God. And again, yeah, Mike Bickle, very big name. He's the president of IHOP, the International House of Prayer. Not to have anything to do with pancakes, but yeah, he is a big name within this movement. When I was going to one of these churches, We would, and this would happen probably every other month, sometimes it would happen several weeks in a row, but towards the end of the church service, we'd all get up and move all the chairs to the side, and then we would form two lines facing each other. And the pastor would just randomly call out, you know, three to the left, or something like that. And everybody would rotate a little bit, and then you'd be facing a random person. And then you would prophesy over them. I mean, we would, in essence, Merle, we were all made out to be false prophets. I mean, I hate to say it that way, but we all did it. And it wasn't like towards the end, I started feeling sick to my stomach. It's like, this is not right. This is offensive to the Lord. I'm just making stuff up. Right. I know what you mean. It is because they believe that everybody, they want everybody to do it. They encourage everyone to do it. And, you know, if God has a word for somebody, He's going to tell them. People don't have to be trained, or people can't be trained to be a prophet or practice it. It's really beyond words. Yeah, yeah, and and those Who in the congregation didn't feel right about it and from time to time somebody would decide they want to sit it out They were they were actually pointed out Like oh my good pastor would call him out in front of everybody and say why aren't you joining us? Yeah, I mean you could just feel the pressure You know and he would be friendly but yet stern like hey, you know Danielle. What are you doing sitting down? What are you doing over there? Why aren't you joining us? Were they not joining because they didn't see the truth in it or they just felt timid about it? I guess it doesn't matter, though. Both. Both. There were instances where people suddenly didn't feel right about it. Like, you know, I'm not hearing anything, so why should I be over there making something up and feeling pressured to try and say something to them? And then there were others who just felt intimidated and you know, they they still bought into it, you know hook line and sinker, but they just didn't They didn't want to do it because they felt intimidated to like, you know, I'm I guess I'm not that spiritual yet So I'm going to sit this one out Kind of stuff which I guess is still being a little bit honest with yourself At least you're admitting that hey, I'm not hearing any voices right now. So I shouldn't be up there definitely Hmm So pulling this all together, what would you say to a friend or a family member who is caught up in this movement? I mean, what kind of things can you say to try and hopefully persuade them to look into the Bible? I think the words of Jesus, I would start out with quoting what Jesus said about, see to it that you be not deceived. I think that is just so apparent. there are people that actually say, don't tell me, I don't want to know, when you try to tell them about what's happening. Don't tell me, I don't want to know. I don't want to hear anything negative. So I would say the first thing is not to be afraid, not to be afraid to seek the truth. If we're afraid of the truth, we're really afraid of him because he is the truth. you know, we're not supposed to walk in deception or sit under false teaching or doctrines of demons. So I think some of it is fear, like fear that your world is going to turn upside down, which it does. But that's the first thing. The second thing is to ask questions and study the Scriptures and ask God, what is the truth? Just ask Him, what is the truth? uh... you know everything changes when you when you discover that the things that you have been believing for years are false and that you were deceived it's not easy to discover that you've uh... believe lies for years it's it's shocking and at last uh... the shock last a long time you begin to to think you know is this me or am i the only one seeing this and it's really nice because now there's a lot more written about it there's a lot more uh... websites that are explaining it and that's just so wonderful that uh... the word is getting out there and people are uh... coming out a lot more than they did years ago but also you know there's many broken relationships that's so hard when you when you uh... i'm getting to your point but i'm just mentioning this because i think it's important uh... You know, there are broken relationships that happen when you leave, but I'd rather experience that than to continue to walk in deception and do the things that are not pleasing to God. I think God honors our obedience, and as hard as it was, He was gracious and merciful and really helped me through the process and guided me all along. and then you know i started meeting other people who were seeing the same things i was seeing and so he's really giving me back a lot more than i ever imagined but it was difficult it's really a choice you know do do i want to stay in what might be deception even might be deception or do i really want to look and see and uh... and find out and the third thing is if after praying and sensing that your church is involved, or that you're involved, then run, you know, get out of this false movement. Some people don't want to give it up. The music, the anointing their friends, as I mentioned, and it's almost become a big part of them, like a big part of their identity, because it is so deceptive, and it's very seducing. uh... sometimes you can't really even see it until after you come out of it you can see all my goodness you know what what did i come out of what did i leave uh... but uh... and if it's a it's a huge life change when you when you come to this realization and uh... annually I don't know if that answers your question, but... Yeah, it does. It certainly does. I mean, friends, you know, go to the Lord. Ask Him. Lord, I just want the truth. If there's air in this movement, please make it apparent to me. If you want me out of this movement, please make it apparent to me. Lead me into your scriptures. We can all trust the scriptures, amen? We can all jump into the Bible and know without a doubt, 100%, that everything in there is true. And like the Word says, let God be true and everyone else a liar. We can jump into His Word and find out whether or not what is going on within this movement is correct. When you start hearing false prophecies coming from these apostles, you know they're not from the Lord. The test of a prophet in the Old Testament was very strict. One false prophecy made somebody a false prophet. And at that point, you can't trust their claim to be an apostle or prophet. I get into other podcasts, I get into what exactly is an apostle. There's very specific requirements in order to be an apostle. And these guys don't meet them. They don't. This movement is often given to power and abuse. The amount of money that they that they're able to pull from their their people With some kind of a promise of financial gain and and health When there's no return And yeah, you know, it's gonna be painful I mean when we left I some people leave these movements and They almost suffer from almost like a post-traumatic stress It haunts them for a while. I had somebody contact me on Facebook that basically told me, I am going through PTSD. Did I just say that right? Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I ended up calling him and talking him through it. We've talked quite a bit since. I've had a lot of other people contact me on Facebook that have expressed very similar things. I'm going through a really hard time. I think I should leave my church, and everybody's turning on me. I asked the pastor questions. Things went south. It's not easy. It's not an easy thing to do. But if you're in an erroneous movement, you've got to make a choice. Am I for God and His Word and truth, or am I in it for this movement? I think eventually everybody's going to have to make that choice. I guess another thing that's interesting when you're in this movement is there's a feeling of being elite. Pride. Oh, man. Oh, yeah. The longer you're within these churches, the more you start getting elevated. You know, oh, so-and-so really does have a powerful anointing for X, Y, or Z, and pretty soon you feel like you've almost got some superhero abilities in certain areas. You feel like you're cutting edge. You're on the cutting edge of Christianity. You are part of the elite. You're part of, you know, well, look, Joel's army, new breed, these different names that they're given. You know, they're part of the end times army that's going to rise up and do this, that, or the other. And so, it does tickle the ears. It makes you feel very special. Yes. I think, on the other hand, when you were talking about the post-traumatic stress disorder, first of all, two things come to mind. First of all, I have a friend that used to deprogram people coming out of Colts, and he said that some of the brainwashing that is done in Noor is equal to, if not worse, than some of the things he saw years ago in the cults. That's the first thing I thought of. And the second thing is, it's almost like a grieving process. It's like, you know, there are stages of grief, and there's a grieving that takes place at the risk of sounding melodramatic, It's, you know, some of the stages of grief is first shock and anger and grieving. Not just grieving, it almost felt like not grieving for yourself, but grieving for some of the people that are still there. And that's another thing that one goes through. Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When we first left, it was this horrible feeling that we just lost all of our friends. Yeah. And even though I knew that we were in the right, I still had nagging feelings of doubt. You know, just what if, what if we are totally turning our back on God and we're running off into a rebellion? You know, because there's so much pressure that's put on you for years and years and years. It's really hard to wake up from this stuff. It's really hard to break free of that mind control. It almost like it's not real. I mean, it's so because because it is so deceptive. Yeah, I know what you mean by the mind control. It almost seems like it's not real. Yep. Like I said, they really do, this movement really does fit the signs of a cult. And friends, if you want to hear some podcasts on it, I actually did a series on signs of a cult. If you go back in my sermon audio archive, they're there. And when you listen through, you can just check them off one by one. almost every single one of them fits this movement. In fact, it's funny, Merle, I did a teaching for my youth group way back then called Signs of Occult. And as I was doing the teaching, I started sweating as I was giving the teaching, as each point I'm reading them off to these students and I'm realizing, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I'm incriminating this very movement. I am naming, I'm calling out our own church. And it's funny. I told you that the pastor contacted me and said, I need to see all your notes before you teach. That was the teaching that pushed him over the edge. Oh, my goodness. But it was that and some of the questions I was asking. But oh, boy. Anyway. There's one more quote that wasn't in the booklet that is just astounding. And I don't know if you want to hear it. But it was in regard to the word of God. higher than the Word of the Apostles, Carol Arnott, the wife of John Arnott, who led the Toronto Movement in the 90s, gave this word. It's called the Golden Sword Prophecy. And, you know, if you ask their leaders if they regard the Word of God over the... they call it the Rhema Word, the Logos Word over the Rhema Word, the Logos meaning the Bible, and the Rhema Word being the spoken word, They'll say, of course, but unfortunately it's not what is practiced. And it's interesting that Warren Smith, first I want to share something he said very quickly in his book, False Christ Coming, Does Anybody Care?, he talks about the messages that are channeled through New Age practitioners that are very similar to the messages that are coming through the Apostles and Prophets. And one of them he mentions is this word, "...the Christian faith also has served its purpose. Its founder seeks to bring a new gospel and a new message that will enlighten all men everywhere." And if you read that, you could think that that was something that was spoken by a NAR prophet or leader. Well, back to the golden sword prophecy. This is what Carol Arnott said, "...and the Lord put in my hand a golden sword, and he said, this is my sword, this is not man's sword, this is my golden sword. The weapons you have been using in the past, you are to throw them away, Because I am giving you my sword now. And the old ways will not do. And the old ways will not be acceptable to me anymore. Because I'm doing a new thing. Do not look to yesterday, but look to the future. Because I'm doing a new thing. This new way is not the old. This new way is new. And you must throw it away and take up my sword, because my sword is made of pure gold and is mighty. and if you wield it, the captives will be set free, the chains will be broken, the healings will manifest, because it will not be by might nor power, but by my wonderful Holy Spirit." Whoa! I've never... Is he suggesting that we throw away the Bible? Is that what he's... Well, you know, that's what's so interesting. The Bible is not mentioned, but everyone knows that the sword is what's referred to as the Bible. In fact, the Bible says that the Word of God is like a two-edged sword. This is beyond words. And like I said before, the frightening thing is that they showed people in the congregation that were just really soaking this all up, and that's what the sad thing is, that they are being deceived and they are being seduced. And they're just accepting whatever is said through these prophets as truly spoken from God. Wow. Wow. And that's John Arnott, right? John Arnott's wife, Carol Arnott. It's on the internet. It's called the Golden Sword Prophecy. I just wanted to mention that because I thought that was tremendous. That is tremendous. That blows my mind. I've never heard that before either. And it makes perfect sense. When you question the words of a prophet using the Word of God, you're shunned. People don't want to hear it. And the pastors will not hear it. When a pastor's word contradicts the Word of God, they won't listen to reason. They get angry. And that's just it. God is doing a new thing. These are new wineskins. This is fresh fire. This is new manna from God. You know, these types of phrases that you hear and you get this feeling that the old and dusty, that old book, you know, don't quote that old book. God's doing something new now. Yeah, the stale old word. starting to feel a little aggravated and angry. I hate when you do that. How I found some of these quotes, I was challenged by a pastor's wife when I first started learning about NAR. And she would say to me, as I was showing her some of it, she'd say to me, well, how do you know if they really said that? Because I would read things on the internet. And I couldn't answer her, of course, intelligently. So I started reading their stuff. And that's how you really find out a lot about what is happening by reading their stuff. And I started putting all the quotes together and it was not looking like a very pretty picture. So that's how I came across some of these quotes. Merle, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on the show. Well, it's been a pleasure to be here. Okay, so we're gonna stop right there. Friends, next week, we're gonna do something different that I have never done on this podcast before. We're actually going to be, and I've already recorded all of this, okay, so I'm actually speaking in hindsight here. We got together. on a shared phone line and I was able to talk to several of the people who are in this book, Narrow is the Way, Have You Really Found It? Those who have given their testimony and I was able to interview several of them and you're gonna hear their stories. I think it's gonna be for some who are coming out of or have come out of this New Apostolic Reformation and also the Word of Faith crowd, because really, the two movements overlap quite a bit. Not all people who are part of the Word of Faith are also part of the New Apostolic Reformation, and conversely, not all the people in the New Apostolic Reformation are part of the Word of Faith movement, but you almost, almost, can use the two terms somewhat synonymously because most of the people that are in this new apostolic reformation will subscribe to most of the beliefs that you find within the Word of Faith movement. You can't use the two words synonymously, but you almost can because they overlap so much. But whatever the case, those who have come out of either of the two movements, I think you're going to find a lot of therapy listening to these different testimonies, as I did. You're also going to hear some pain. I mean, let's face it, it's very painful for some people to come out of these movements. And the abuse, the emotional abuse, the verbal abuse, the things that happen in these churches is unbelievable. It's actually disgusting at times and you're going to hear some pain in their voices just like in some of my earlier podcasts when I start talking about this stuff you'll hear me start getting a little aggravated and you'll even hear me get a little more intense in fact, flat out angry. So I think they actually controlled themselves much better than I did in some of my early podcasts. But whatever the case, you're not going to want to miss this. This is fascinating. If you've never been part of this movement, well, now you're going to see an inside look in it. I can almost guarantee that every single one of you out there listening to this, if you're a Christian, you know some people that are subscribing to these beliefs. So this will help you set them free. If you are still part of the New Apostolic Reformation, this is going to help you so much. Okay, and for those who have come out, of course, yeah, like I said, it's going to be therapy for you, really, to be able to hear other people's side of the story as you really are able to identify with their sufferings and the things that they had to deal with. So anyway, We'll stop right there. Again, this has been Michael Bohm with Youth Apologetics Training. We talked to Merle Hansel today and her books Beware the New Apostolic Reformation and also Narrow is the Way, Have You Really Found It? With that, I love you guys and we'll see you next week. Come on!