Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling is a live call-in radio program providing doctrinal dialogue, cultural commentary, and insightful interviews with some of today's foremost Christian authors and leaders. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. The goal of the church and the radio program is to seek the glory of God in the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of the saints by the ministry of the Word. For more information, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Here with today's edition of Knowing the Truth is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome into this edition of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. This is Pastor Kevin Bowling. So glad that you joined us for the broadcast today. We've got a lot of things on our plate here that we want to cover on the broadcast today. But let me start by wishing you a happy Reformation Day. Of course, this is October 31st. Some people refer to it as Halloween. I particularly don't celebrate Halloween, but I do celebrate Reformation Day, and I love talking about the great core issues of the Reformation, like I did yesterday on this broadcast. Justification by faith in our wonderful Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 1517, Augustinian monk, Martin Luther, nailed the 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Chapel, and there a lot of folks would count that hammer hitting that nail as being the beginning of the Reformation. Of course, it spread like wildfire throughout all of Europe. And even today, the Protestant Church in America here today is a result of the Protestant Reformation that took place way back when in 1517. It's still relevant today. I won't talk much more about that on the broadcast today. You can listen to yesterday's broadcast if you want to hear more about that. It is extremely relevant to where we are today. I think it plays in to our broadcast today in the sense of reformation. I think that the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is in need of reforming again. There are changes that are being made in the Church today that are not good, and there is some reformation that needs to be made in the Church today that is good. And I think that you'll understand that a little bit more as we go through the broadcast today. On the broadcast today, we have a special guest, in-studio guest, Joe Dallas is with us. Joe has been with me on the broadcast on numerous occasions. I'm one of Joe's biggest fans and promote his book very often, have given away copies of his book repeatedly, specifically the book that I'm referring to is his book, The Gay Gospel, How Pro-Gay Advocates Misread the Bible. I've given away that book a number of times and recommended it a number of times. And so it's really a pleasure for me to have Joe here with us in studio so that we can do this interview. Joe is here in town because there's a conference taking place. It begins today and it goes all the way through Saturday. And there's different elements to the conference, but the bottom line good news is you can still get in on the conference there. In fact, McCray Game was in the studio here with Tony Beam in the morning show the other day, and if I understood McCray correctly, they want you there one way or another, you know, so if you have difficulty registering or paying for that event, you can get a hold of those folks over there and talk with them about how to get you to that conference. It's going to be held right here in downtown Greenville, down at First Presbyterian Church in downtown Greenville. Pastor Gibbons there is the pastor, just had lunch with him recently. And so the name of the conference is called Rising from the Ashes. And it's part of a conference that is being put on by the Hope for Wholeness Network. And this is the Hope for Wholeness Conference. Again, October 31st, that's today through November 2nd. And it's going to feature Joe Dallas as one of the featured speakers, along with many others. And then on Saturday night, they have a banquet that's going to be part of this. And Stephen Baldwin is going to be speaking at that banquet on Saturday night. So a lot taking place. Let me give you the website. Right up front here, so there'll be no question about where you can find out information. That website is www.hopeforwholeness.org. That's hopeforwholeness.org. Hope for wholeness is all one word. I'll be giving you that website throughout the broadcast today. And mentioning the broadcast today, let me tell you two things. We're streaming live out on sermonaudio.com, so some of the folks are watching the broadcast out there. Jim Moline is handling all the video production there. We're also, the audio is streaming live out at, audio only, out at Christian Talk 660. Gary Miller is taking care of that portion of it as well, out on their website, 660.com. And let me tell you that you can participate in our discussion today, and there's two ways for you to do that. We have a toll-free number set up. That number is good nationwide. Toll-free, it's 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-9535. And Joe will be answering your questions on the theme that we'll be talking about on the broadcast today. And also, you can shoot me an email, and the email is very simply just kttradio at gmail.com. That's kttradio, all one word, at gmail.com. Be happy to take your question or comment that way. Sometimes, as we're talking about sexual sins on the broadcast today, sometimes people want to remain anonymous. That's absolutely fine. I don't need to state your name or anything like that. If you have a question that you want to ask, No problem whatsoever. Just let Gary know when you call in that you want to remain anonymous, and he won't give me a name on the list when he hands it over to me, and I'll watch in the email there as well, and if you want to remain anonymous, that's absolutely fine. The program today that we're going to talk about is Responding to Pro-Gay Theology. Joe's session over there is going to be speaking to leaders and the first session that he's speaking at tomorrow and I just thinking about that subject I thought you know that a lot of leaders today in the church are confused and therefore as to exactly how to approach this subject how to think about it biblically and and therefore we need clarity. We are in desperate need in the Evangelical Church of clarity on this issue. So I'm so glad that Joe's here to provide that clarity in the sessions that will be given and also today on the Knowing the Truth radio program. Joe, welcome to the Christian Talk 660 studio here. Well, thank you, thank you for having me back. Excellent. It's a pleasure. I still get folks, we had you a number of years ago, come and give a half-day seminar at the Hilton in downtown Greenville. Yes. I still have folks to this day who say that how much that meant to them, how much they got out of it. The spirit in which you spoke at the session there was picked up by a number of people. It wasn't, you weren't belligerent in the approach. They were very kind and gracious, but yet firm and confirming of what the Word of God had to say, and people were really appreciative of what you did. That's good to hear. That's good to hear. Joe, I just mentioned that there's confusion in the church today. Oh, my gosh. I saw a news story, and I wanted to get your comment on this. This was a news story. I picked up on it out on WMD. It actually started much further before that, but the story was speaking about the fact that there was – in fact, let me read it here. It says this out on WMD. It says the Washington Times, October 11th, editorial included the following, quote, At the Washington National Cathedral, the very Reverend Gary Hall announced last Sunday that he had discovered a sin unknown to hundreds of churchmen before him. They quote Reverend Hall then, quote, we must now have the courage to call homophobia and heterosexualism what they are, he said. quote, they are sins. Homophobia is a sin. Heterosexualism is a sin. Shaming people for what they love or whom they love, I should say, for whom they love is a sin, unquote. And the article goes on there then to explain that basically homosexuality is not the sin any longer, but the way that people respond to homosexuality, that is what the sin is. This is an Episcopal minister, a mainline denomination that for a long period of time has embraced homosexuality, so it's no surprise there. But the sentiment that he shares there is one that I find that people are are echoing sometimes, regurgitating that same sentiment, the idea that, you know, whom you love is all the issue really is, and so forth. There seems to be a lot of confusion, even in evangelical churches, as to what we should, how we should approach this issue. Your response? Well, Kevin, I'm glad you make that distinction, quote, even in evangelical churches, unquote, because we expect that confusion in the world. We do not expect nonbelievers to be subscribing to a biblically-based worldview. So it is no surprise that these arguments are compelling to nonbelievers. But within the population of born-again believers, we expect a healthier, more robust ability to ward off error, if you want to look at it this way. And I think it's good to frame this by noting the real problem is the general biblical ignorance within the body of Christ today. A healthy body can ward off, you see, diseases that will affect a non-healthy body. The less healthy we are, the more susceptible we are to various diseases floating around. The healthier we are, the better we are able to resist. And I think that it's indicative of how unhealthy the modern church is when you look at how easily so many born-again believers will embrace that kind of a notion. Now let's unpack the Reverend's statements. He noted three particular sins, at least what he calls sins. The sin of homophobia, the sin of heterosexualism, and the sin of shaming someone for whom they love. Homophobia is one of those words that means different things to different people, but strictly speaking, I think it's fair to say it means an unwarranted prejudice or animosity towards homosexual people. And on that point, I'd agree with him. I would agree. I think that a sin that has been prevalent historically has been the sin of animosity towards homosexuals. And that was a sin that our culture largely practiced, you know. up until maybe the past 20 years or so, and I'm sure there is still a number of people who hold unwarranted prejudice towards homosexuals. But on that point, as I said, I would agree, it is wrong to look down on or express contempt for or hate homosexual people, as it is wrong to look down on, express contempt towards, or hate any people. Heterosexualism is a new word that's getting thrown out there, and I'm not even sure what he means by that. Again, looking at it at face value, it seems to indicate a standard. Heterosexualism, the belief that the heterosexual union is the normative union. Well, if that's a sin, count me guilty. I believe that God established the heterosexual bond in the creation account, and that the testimony of Scripture keeps going back to that as the foundation, the bedrock, both of the human family and also as a type of God's relation to his people, the bridegroom and the bride. So, for that reason, I don't believe that is a standard to be messed with. I think what he is trying to do, the Reverend, is get us to apologize for holding a particular standard. And he is calling that a sin, and I would say personally, no, I don't believe it is a sin at all. I believe it is a standard. Jesus himself referred to it when he was asked about marriage and divorce and remarriage, and he said, let's cut to the chase. Okay, what did he just say? That the standard, divinely instituted, Was one in which the marital union is independent a man leaves his father and mother monogamous he'll cleave to his wife let no man set it asunder and heterosexual No, you not he created them male and female and anything falling short of that Kevin be it adultery premarital sex incest prostitution or homosexuality We define as sin because it falls short of created intent Now, I call that a conviction based on a worldview. The Reverend calls it heterosexualism, so there you go. His third alleged sin is the sin of allegedly shaming people over who they love. And that's a clever way of saying that if you disagree with someone, you're shaming them. You notice how negative that turns the concept of disagreement. And again, I say that's clever because it makes people feel like, oh dear, if I disagree, I better not say anything because people will think I'm trying to shame these people. Well, the fact is we do hold opinions, don't we, as to what is right or what is wrong. And when we express an opinion, we are not necessarily shaming anyone. We are simply expressing an opinion as to what is right or what is wrong. By and large, I don't think any of us conservative, born-again believers have a problem with anyone loving anyone. The Bible does not prohibit love, for heaven's sake. The Bible commands love. The Bible commends love. The Bible also establishes boundaries in which love is expressed, particularly sexual love. So I believe it is entirely possible, Kevin, to love someone and to be in a sexual relationship with that person, and to be completely wrong. I believe it's entirely possible for a married man to fall in love with a woman other than his wife, and to fall very deeply in love with her. And in fact, he may be more compatible with her than with his wife. He may feel things for her he has never felt for his wife. With her, he may feel more complete than he's ever felt with his wife. And I think that all may be true, and it's still completely wrong. Marriage is a covenant. It is a covenantal relationship. So, just for example, my favorite actor of all time is Spencer Tracy. I love his movies. I loved the guy. I thought he was great. He very deeply evidently loved the actress Katherine Hepburn and they had a long-standing relationship. In fact, their relationship is one of the Hollywood legends. Now, Mr. Tracy was a married man and was not married to Katherine Hepburn. I have no doubt they loved each other very much. I could even say they were very committed to each other. So the fact that they loved each other did not legitimize the adulterous relationship, nor did the fact that the relationship was adulterous discount the fact that they loved each other. Now, we could argue over the meaning of love. We could say, well, that was surely not agape love. That is not divine love. And I'll grant you that. But there is a very deep human love, isn't there? I mean, very deep, very passionate, very committed, very solid. And so I guess the question becomes, does depth of love legitimize any relationship? Well, clearly it doesn't. Else we would have to legitimize incest. We could say that two consenting adults in an incestuous relationship may love each other very deeply. If love alone baptizes a relationship, then there are any number of types of relationships we would have to legitimize. But again, that is not a biblical perspective on the nature of love or on the standards that God has spelled out for sexual union. And yet that is so prevalent in our society today that no less than the President of the United States Said that he changed his view on this issue because of love he said that who am I basically to if people love each other to say anything about that whatsoever to stand in the way and he Spoke of love as being that issue that caused him to change his view on this so it's extremely prevalent and Kevin to me That's even more disturbing than the belief that homosexuality is legitimate because if you are going to state that very broad position that your views about a form of relating were changed because of the love the people had for each other. I mean, very seriously, you don't have a logical reason to object to polygamy, because if you talk to a polygamous unit, you will often find that all of the women and the men involved will say, we love each other very much. And you know what? They probably do. They probably do. I think that many people who live together, apart from marriage, love each other very much. And we could go on down the list of any number of sexual sins and say, love may be present. That doesn't legitimize the relationship. Evidently, Solomon loved his wives. Yeah, all 100 of them. Loved them a lot. Yeah, all 100 of them. I think that you've been mentioning that there are these other sins that we can point to, like polygamy, and incest, and pedophilia, and these types of things. I think, though, people are seeing that, yeah, that's exactly where we're going. that once we have now capitulated on this issue for that reason, this is a slippery slope, and we fully expect now for polygamy and these types of things to fall as being vices in our society as well. Why not, Kevin? If I were a polygamist, I'd be all over this. I would be fighting hard to say, hey, you have rewritten the standard to accommodate same-sex unions. Now you don't have a leg to stand on by which you can prohibit including us in the standard of legitimate marital relationships. And I would be amazed. if we don't eventually, probably sooner than later, legitimize polygamy. I'd be amazed. Sure. I think that there are probably steps underway even right now, and in some ways it may, you know, we've got television programs now that are showing polygamous families, and so again, Here comes that same mechanism, that same methodology to get people accustomed to it. I could fully see that being an... Who could, using that standard that you just described, with only love as being the standard, who can say anything against it, if you accept that standard? Exactly. And of course, as believers, we don't. But Joe, I want to continue this thought just a little bit, but I want to remind our listening audience that we're speaking with Joe Dallas. We're talking with Joe. He's going to be here in town speaking at a conference that begins tonight and goes through Saturday. And the title of that conference is Rising from the Ashes. It's Hope for the Wholeness Conference. You can find out more by going out to their website at www.hopeforwholeness.org. We're going to be talking specifically about a couple of Joe's books on the radio program today, and I'm actually going to be giving away one of those for your question or comment as long as supplies last here in the studio. We'll make sure we get them mailed out to you directly so you won't have to come by. the studio, but we're going to be talking about Joe's latest book on pornography, and we're also going to be talking about the book that I recommend of Joe's to so many people, The Gay Gospel, How Pro-Gay Advocates Misread the Bible. I'll tell you more about both of those in just a few moments. Joe, I wanted to ask you that there was a statement that I actually posted yesterday on my Facebook page, but in order to tell people what we'd be talking about today, I found it under a heading called Responding to Pro-Gay Theology, and I wrote this. It says, when God is reputed to sanction what He has already clearly forbidden, then a religious travesty is being played out, and boldly. Confronting it is necessary because the pro-gay theology asks us to conform or to confirm professing Christians in their sin when we are biblically commanded to do just the opposite. As Christ's ambassadors on earth, we unfaithfully represent him if a professing believer's ongoing sin has no effect upon the relationship with that believer. So it was responding to the idea that the movement now is not just saying we want tolerance, We want legitimacy. We want you to affirm us in this relationship. And now, maybe even a little bit further, we want you to say that God affirms us in this situation. Is that where we're at? Well, clearly it is. The quotes you gave earlier from the Episcopal reverend, I think are indicative of where we are going both as a culture and largely, I hesitate to say as a church, but as a religious population, if you will. I mean, as you know, there's the body of Christ made up of born-again believers. There are many people who profess Christianity all kind of mixed in together. But, absolutely, that is the trend. The gay rights movement began as a plea for tolerance and looking at the original goals and claims of the gay rights movement. I would agree with many of them. Because, initially, it was a movement about respect. It was a movement that said, please, don't beat us up, don't call us names, don't treat us like we're subhuman. all of which was very much the experience of many homosexual people up until the mid to late 1960s and well has been the experience of many of them up to today but I mean broadly as a culture it was acceptable to despise homosexual people and so initially the goals of the movement were ones that I could largely agree with. They were not goals to legitimize homosexuality, to pass laws codifying it. They were basically saying, we are fellow citizens and human beings, please treat us as such. Now that evolved into what we have now, which is a demand for affirmation, a demand that you not just tolerate, quote-unquote. But that you get with the program, if you do not say that homosexuality is normal, that same-sex marriage is legitimate, then you are homophobic. There is no middle ground. They very much co-opted the race issue and said, in essence, it would be unthinkable in 2013 to hold the viewpoint that African-American citizens are somehow second-class and inferior, intellectually and physically even, to white people. And that if you hold that viewpoint, it would be ludicrous to say, well, that's just my viewpoint based on my interpretation of scripture. I don't mean you any harm. But they're trying to put us in the same category as that. And trying, I've got to say, with a good deal of success. Yeah, it's scary the amount of progress that that view has made over just the last couple of years and the number of organizations and people that have spoken out positively for that movement, no doubt about it. We're going to take a quick commercial break. When we come back from the break, we'll continue our conversation with Joe Dallas. Let me tell you that I am giving away copies of his book, Five Steps to Breaking Free from Porn. This is Joe's latest book. And this comes under the heading, we're talking more about sexual sins in general. And today we're specifically focusing on the sin of homosexuality because Joe's going to be addressing that at the conference that he's speaking at right here in Greenville. And so there's where we're zeroing in. But remember, Joe actually deals with the idea of sexual sins in general. And that involves sexual sins involving heterosexuals, as well as sexual sins involving homosexuals. And so both of those two areas. This book will help you, though, in both of those areas. Five Steps to Breaking Free from Porn. It's the latest book by Joe Dallas. Gonna give away some copies of it on the program today. 1-888-660-WLFJ. Be happy to take your call. We'll be back in a moment. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bolling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Sarah Lou walked in her own blood. Her feet were beaten by her captors, and then she was made to walk. What was her crime? Well, she was a Christian. She wouldn't renounce her faith or reveal her fellow believers. She was just a young girl, but she stood strong in God's love. Hear Sarah's painful but thrilling story this Friday at 1130 here on Christian Talk 660, 92.9 FM on Peace Talk, your place to find hope, get help, and discover peace. Killsong United is coming to Greenville. Killsong United, Welcome Zion Tour. Tuesday night, November 19th at the Vilo Center, including new music from their hit new album, Zion. Tickets for Hillsong United Welcome Zion are available now online at hisradio.com. Hillsong United. You can find out more when you click box office at hisradio.com. My name's Kurt Cameron, and together with Warren Barfield, we are putting on an incredible event that is designed to fireproof marriages. Maybe you saw the movie Fireproof, maybe that resonated in your heart and in the heart of your church and your community. Well, this event, in essence, takes the movie and turns it into a live experience. We want to pull down as many barriers and walls that would separate us from coming together around the gospel for the sake of building up our marriages and our families. If we're concerned about the future of the church, we've got to heal the family. And it's got to be done in a gospel-centered way. That's what Love Worth Fighting For is all about. Feed Your Faith at the Love Worth Fighting For event featuring Kirk Cameron. Sunday, November 17th at 4 p.m. at Brushy Creek Baptist Church, Easley, South Carolina. Sponsored by Crown Financial. Tickets at FeedYourFaith.org or at BrushyCreekChurch.com Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into the second half of the Known in the Truth radio broadcast. We're talking with Joe Dallas. Joe is going to be speaking at an event right here in Greenville, South Carolina. That event is called Rising from the Ashes and it's put on by Hope for the Wholeness Network. This is their conference that they're having this year. It begins today, Reformation Day, October 31st and goes through November 2nd, that's Saturday. And starting today at 4.30, the conference opens, and there's a leaders' conference that's going to begin today, and Joe will be speaking at that leaders' conference. And then there's a participants' conference that then will start in the afternoon tomorrow. The leaders' conference begins tonight, and then part of tomorrow morning is going to be part of that leaders' conference as well. And then, after the leaders' conference, there's a participants' conference, and that then starts at 6 o'clock p.m. tomorrow. And then there's also a banquet at the end, and that banquet will be on Saturday, and Stephen Baldwin is the guest speaker at that banquet. Let me just tell you that the best place to go to get all the information, to find out about how to register for the event, to see who the speakers are, to see a schedule of what's taking place. All of those items, those pertinent items to this conference can all be found at one source. That's out at hopeforwholeness.org. That's all one word, hope for, F-O-R, hopeforwholeness.org. You can go out to that website and find out all the information that you need. We're speaking with Joe today. We're talking with him specifically about some of the issues related to the pro-gay theology And because Joe's written a book on this subject called The Gay Gospel, How Pro-Gay Advocates Misread the Bible. We're zeroing in on that topic here today. But I'm giving away copies of Joe's latest book, which is called Five Steps to Breaking Free from Porn. This is a scourge on our modern-day society, and the Church needs help, and individuals need help in order to figure out exactly how they can remain pure before Almighty God, and this book will enable you and give you some good help to be able to do that. If you want a copy of that book for your question or comment during the broadcast today, we'll go ahead and mail out a copy of that book to you while supplies last here in the studio. The way to get you get in touch with us is via the phone line toll-free number 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-9535. 1-888-660-9535. Be happy to take your question or comment via the phone line. And also, my email address, let's see if I can remember this one, it's kttradio at gmail.com. That's kttradio at gmail.com. Be happy to take your question or comment that way. And I am watching the Gmail account here, so if you have a question or comment. And again, you can do it anonymously if you'd like, that's absolutely fine. Okay, let's go back to our discussion. Joe, with that being your topic that you're going to be speaking about, I wanted to ask you about some of the key issues involved in this, in your full-blown argument about this, as to what the pro-gay theology is trying to do. You have a couple of headings there. We won't have time today to go through these headings, but there was the social justice argument that they give. and then you refute in your book the general religious arguments that are given, and then the scriptural arguments themselves. Hopefully we'll have time to get to some of those scriptural arguments, but let's just glean from those broad three points a couple of important elements. What would you say would be some of the most important elements that we need to talk about here today? Well, the scriptural arguments, in my thinking, are the most important, Kevin, only because they are the core issue. The core issue is coming down to what does the Bible say, what does it not say? And as Paul asked the Romans, the ultimate question is, what saith the scripture? And believe me, this is essentially where the final battles are going to be fought, Kevin. The revisionist movement is a movement that seeks to revise our understanding of what the Scripture says. The revisionist movement has taken a hold in many denominations already. You mentioned the Episcopal Church earlier. There's also the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Presbyterian Church USA, as well as many independent groups have already adopted a revisionist approach to Scripture. And that's an approach that basically says we believe the Bible is inspired. We believe the Bible is authoritative. However, we understand now that the references to homosexuality from Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy have been either mistranslated, or they've been misinterpreted, or they have been misunderstood, and we need to revise our understanding of what those verses really say. That's the core of pro-gay theology. Pro-gay theology seeks to revise our understanding of what the Bible does or does not say about homosexuality. Somebody once said, I think it was Lorraine Bettner, the great theologian, said, You know, if you can break down the people's trust in the Word of God and what the Word of God says, it'll be relatively easily to make them believe anything. You know, you have no standard then to go back to, like Isaiah says, to the Word and to the testimony. If it agrees not with these, it's because there's no light in it. So we have to really reiterate that idea of the inspired, verbally inspired inspiration of God's Word and stand upon that and teach that and that's so important and we're going to look at a couple of those verses here in just a moment. Before we do, let's run to the phone line. We've got Wayne is up first. Wayne, your question or comment today for our special guest. Hi, Brother Kevin, Brother Joe. I appreciate both your ministries. Joe, I especially appreciate yours in the book, The Gay Gospel. I've read that, and that's helped me formulate my view on this subject. My question today is in the form of a scenario, and then I'll ask you what our church should have done better. The church I was attending, I had a small outreach to children, and through that outreach, there was a lesbian couple that came to our church, and they're a so-called married couple. I say so-called because, you know, we know that God defines marriage. But they attended our church for a long, long time. They actually became a staple in the church. I mean, someone you'd expect to see every Sunday, and they were there every Sunday, still wearing their wedding bands and married. Eventually, our church baptized them, and then let them join the church, and then eventually they were in ministry, or at least one of them was in the ministry in the church. I just, what should we have done different? I, it was a slow process in that they came into the church and become a staple in the church and everybody got to know them and very lovely, nice people, you know, but the church, I think went too far and, and, uh, and what they did, but they did profess Christ, but with no change in this lifestyle. So if you could help me, uh, what should our church have done better? Good question, Wayne. Appreciate that. We're going to go ahead and let Joe answer that. You can stay on if you want in case there's a follow-up. Yeah, sure, Wayne. Let's remember there is a difference between church attendance, church membership, and church leadership. Church attendance we should celebrate no matter who attends our church. I mean, we should be grateful for anyone who walks through the door of our sanctuary to come hear the Word of God. That's a wonderful thing. Whether they are not born again, or whether they are born again but are in serious error, or whether they're born again and walking in the light. No matter what, we welcome anyone to church attendance, provided they're not disrupting our church services. But apart from that, we're very happy to have anyone attend our church. I think your church did that right. They should have been welcomed, they should have been loved, they should have been respected. Good job there. Church membership is another matter. When someone joins the church, we should be telling them that church membership requires that you be living the life of a disciple. That means that you are going to be living within the parameters of what is prescribed in scripture, that you will be submitting all parts of your life to that, and if you are not, you're not in a position to be a member of the church, nor are you in a position to be baptized. Those are for disciples. Now, we may have professing believers come to our churches who are not willing to submit those parts of their lives. And in a case like that, I do not believe it would be right to offer them membership. So I would disagree with your leadership on that point. I would certainly disagree with putting in leadership anyone whose life is being lived blatantly outside the parameters of what Scripture prescribes. And so whether it is a couple who are living together apart from marriage, or a homosexual couple, or someone who has an ongoing problem with alcoholism or chemical dependency and they're not taking the right actions to stay sober, I would say all of those people are disqualified from leadership. And so I strongly disagree with your church on having put them into leadership. Not knowing your church, who the heck am I to sit in judgment on them? That's not what I'm doing. But I am saying I strongly disagree with the decisions that they made. I don't know why they made them. I'm going to assume they made them with the best of intentions. But that doesn't legitimize the decision. Yes, their reason would be that. Their reason telling me was that If we get them more involved in church, then eventually they'll give up their lifestyle, and they associated homosexuality with any other sin. Really? Yeah. Now, at the risk of sounding like a jerk, let me ask this candidly, not sarcastically. Is there any other sin which your church would accommodate in that way, if a man was beating his wife? Would they put that man in leadership and say, well, we're hoping that because of his exposure to the church, he will change his ways? If a man was selling cocaine and himself using illegal substances, would the church put him in a position of leadership and say, well, we're hoping that the influence of the church would rub off on him? I'm going to dare to say that would be ludicrous. But I think it's just as ludicrous to assume that if someone is involved in sexual sin, by promoting them to a place of leadership, you're somehow going to influence them out of that. Let's look again at the early church, as described in the book of Acts. We don't see that kind of ambiguity in the early sermons we read from Peter on the day of Pentecost or from Paul or from John or from Stephen for that matter. You may have disagreed if you were there with the sermons that you heard, but you would have certainly understood the sermons you heard that were very clear. You might have liked them. You may not have liked them. And I'm sure that there were many people who were turned away from the early church because the preaching in the early church had a holy clarity to it. And that might not go down very well with you if it nailed a particular sin you weren't willing to abandon. But nobody substituted or watered down their clarity in the early church for fear of offending someone, and no one should today. Well, using your book, Brother Joe, I made all these same arguments with my church leadership and to no avail. And so they've actually perpetuated this with other people. So I had to leave the church because I couldn't get any resolution with this. But I appreciate all you do in this area. It's just really broken my heart, you know, to see the church that I attended to do that. Well, Wayne, just like we were talking about in the beginning with the news item, you know, it's now things have flipped so much so that the person who now stands up and says that this isn't right, he's looked upon as the sinner and the person actually who's involved in the sin is looked upon as being the person in the right. And so, you know, truth is falling in the street that equity cannot enter and right is being said to be wrong and wrong is being said to be right. Wayne, appreciate your stance on this and your willingness to stand for the truth. We're on the right side, the scriptures are on our side of you standing up there, and I just pray that the church would repent of this as well as the people involved. Well, I appreciate about that. Have a great day. Okay, Wayne. Let's go back to the phone line we've got. Mike is up next. Mike, what's on your mind today? Hey, how you doing, sir? I just wanted to ask, The subject that you're talking about right now, homosexuality and the Bible, where they try to fit the Bible into their lifestyle, saying that the Bible condones what they do. Does he have a book? book for that, that discusses that. Yes, exactly. In fact, we're going to go through a couple of those verses right now, but the book that you want to get, I didn't get the okay from the publisher to give this one away, but the book is called The Gay Gospel, with a question mark after it, and the author's name is Joe Dallas. If you go out to his website, joedallas.com, you'll find a copy out there, a link to where you can get a copy. But that book goes through all of these verses, the five verses that Joe listed a few moments ago. It tells you how the verse has historically been interpreted, how the gay theology movement has twisted that interpretation, and then Joe gives his rebuttal as to why they are wrong in that interpretation. And so you'll get all that in the book in great detail. The gay gospel question mark? Exactly. And the author's name is Joe Dallas, and you can just go to his website, joedallas.com. Okay. Thank you, sir. All right. Thank you, Mike. Up next is Greg. Greg, what's on your mind today? I appreciate your participation on the show, Brother Dallas, and I'd like to get your feedback on how we should promote public policy with regard to issues of sexual orientation and so forth, and specifically whether or not we should try to promote policies that would prohibit public promotion of homosexuality in society. Good question there, Greg. Do you want to take it offline or do you want to hang on? I'd like to hang on. Okay, great. Joe? Well, Greg, to my thinking, it depends on the policy in question. I think that there are some public policy issues that are secondary to others, and so right now, just for example, my top concern are the public policies that would clamp down on freedom of speech or freedom of religion in America. I am concerned about policies that inhibit the ability of a church to operate in good conscience as to whether or not it will rent out its facilities for a same-sex marriage or whether or not A non-profit Christian organization can continue to operate if they don't comply with laws that are anti-discrimination in nature and that would require them to either hire openly homosexual people or to promote or provide support for behaviors that they don't believe in. Those are public policy issues that are very near to my heart. I'm still very concerned about the definition of marriage in America. I realize that public opinion is hugely shifting on that, and it seems very likely that we will see the widespread codification of same-sex marriage. But personally, I'm still resistant to that. So again, it depends on the public policy issue at hand. What about issues of adoption by homosexual couples and just the whole concept of being proactive to promote family values. The issues that you mentioned seem to me to be more defensive in nature, promote religious freedom and so forth and the natural definition or biblical definition of marriage but what about being proactive. South Carolina is a conservative state, conservative area, could we set an example for other parts of the country, of the world, on how we could have public policy that promotes family values and discourages a destructive lifestyle of homosexuality. I think you can be proactive, and I think it's critical to be fair when you're being proactive. I have been a part of many efforts that were proactive in the public policy arena. And my only caution that I would express is to be sure that in clarifying your opposition to a behavior, that you do not resort to stereotypes or half-truths about the people involved in that behavior. In the past, one of my biggest complaints about conservative public policy participation, and I've been very involved in that over the years, is that too often we have been willing to exaggerate claims that we make about homosexual people in order to make our point. I think we can build a strong case for a heterosexual ethic. while still acknowledging that there are many homosexual people who are fundamentally very decent, responsible people. So we are not advocating the idea that homosexuals are all promiscuous or that they are all child molesters or that they are all dangerous. Rather, we are advocating the idea in public policy that children are best raised in an environment where their biological mother and father are raising them, and we strive for that as the ideal, and that heterosexual unions are, by their nature, more stable and healthy than homosexual unions. Now, that is something I think we can, with integrity, promote in public policy and proactively. Greg, does that help? Yeah, I would just add that. We also need to be cautious because those who are promoting the opposite worldview are very intolerant and we need to... take that into consideration. But thank you so much. Don't get me started. I think Joe knows a little bit about that intolerance. I think he's been on the end of that quite a bit in recent years. Joe, a couple of the verses, we want to make sure that we talk about a few of those. I know we don't have much time to do this, but let me ask you first about the idea of Sodom and Gomorrah. What's the new revisionist view of Sodom and Gomorrah? Well, the revisionist view would have us believe that homosexuality had virtually nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. I would argue that Sodom was not destroyed exclusively because of homosexuality. There were many sins being openly practiced there. But the attempted homosexual rape of Lot's visitors, two angelic beings, was the last straw by which they finally said, all right, we're out of here, the city is doomed. The other verse would be in the Leviticus, Leviticus Chapter 18 and Chapter 20. Some people, I've heard the President again even refer to this and say, wait a second, what are we going to do? Are we going to condemn people for eating shellfish or doing different things along this line? In order to be consistent, we would have to do that if we are going to condemn people then for a homosexual lifestyle based upon that verse in Leviticus. But if we take the Bible as an entire document, the Bible itself clarifies that we are no longer bound by the dietary laws of Leviticus. The sexual standards set in Leviticus 18 and 20 transcend the book of Leviticus because those chapters condemn incest, they condemn adultery, they condemn prostitution, and they condemn homosexuality. Now, honestly, Kevin, I don't hear anybody arguing that incest could be legitimized just because it was listed in Leviticus and that's no longer relevant to us. So, again, I think consistency would demand that we look at the overall document of the Bible and we can see that these behaviors are condemned not only in the Levitical law, but throughout all of the both Old and New Testaments. Romans chapter 1, the Apostle Paul writing and talking about unnatural, natural and unnatural affections and so forth, and the giving over of people. How is that one viewed? The revisionist would have us believe that either these were not true homosexuals in Romans chapter 1, they were heterosexuals dabbling in homosexuality, or that Paul was talking about homosexuality in the context of ritual prostitution or cultic activities. Now there's nothing in the chapter to indicate that. Pro-gay theology imposes a contingency on that chapter that doesn't exist. the chapter condemns a number of behaviors, not just homosexuality, many others, as evidence that we are a fallen race, and that's the argument that Paul is making. But it is significant that he points to homosexuality as one of the first evidences that human nature is no longer what it was meant to be. So I think his argument there is very clear. You've got a couple more that you go over here, as well as in Corinthians and so forth. But let me ask the question. They say, hey, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Therefore, he must have been for it. Well, Kevin, that may be one of the strongest arguments against homosexuality. Since when was Jesus shy about overturning people's misconceptions? He knew he was speaking largely to an audience that adhered to the Mosaic Code and that believed homosexuality was a sin. Now think about it. Jesus went out of his way to speak with a Samaritan. who was a woman no less, crossed both gender and racial boundaries. Jesus was not shy about pointing out that many of the traditions the people believed were false. In fact, during the Sermon on the Mount, how many times do we hear him say, you have heard it said, but I say unto you. He was radical that way. Now, if he did not say anything about homosexuality, and if he approves of homosexuality, then I would say he missed a heck of an opportunity to once and forever establish the fact that homosexuality is legitimate, because he had the opportunity to say, you've heard it said, thou shalt not lie where the man is with the woman, but I say unto you that if it's a loving relationship, it's acceptable. If he felt that way, why on earth didn't he say it? By the way, Jesus also didn't say anything specifically about incest or wife-beating or bestiality. Now, come on. None of us would assume that we would legitimize those behaviors because of the Gospel's silence on them. Hmm argument from silence. You got to be careful about those. That's for sure. Let me thank you Joe for being with us today I really appreciate it. Hey, if you want to hear Joe speak, here's your opportunity. He's gonna be speaking over at the At the conference that's taking place right here in Greenville rising from the ashes go out to the website. Hope for wholeness org That's hope for wholeness org. You can go out to their website and and get all the information. Go out to Joe's website at www.joedallas.com and those of you who called in, shoot me an email with your mailing address and I'll send you a copy of the book. We'll talk to you soon. Remember Jesus said, you shall know the truth. You've been listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. For more information about the church and radio ministry, visit us on the web at knowingthetruth.org. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or Clear Channel Communications.