Hey, so good morning, everybody. We're still moving through Romans and, uh, we're in chapter 13. And last time I had to leave a little early and this time I'm going to have to as well. But I, but unfortunately we, you know, we kind of left in the middle of, of, you know, a point where there might be some, some comments about what we were covering. So I want to just tee that up again and make sure we kind of get to hear some perspectives on it. Um, I'm not dogmatic about this. matter in Romans 13 on the government issue, other than I think historically evangelicals have used the idea of being submissive to government to, they've used it as cover, I think, to some degree where there might have been, or there were, places where we need to speak up. And when that happens, I think it helps create a vacuum where other people will speak up and make their views known and their influence known. There's just times when Christians need to speak up. The way I was taught a long time ago, and I accepted it for a long time, but I find myself refining my views on this matter of government. I was taught, and this was standard Bible college seminary teaching, you're to submit to the government so long as what they're doing, their laws or their kings, presidents, whoever, so long as they don't require you to sin or prohibit you from doing what God requires of you. So, for example, if the government said you can't go to church, then you could resist that. And we saw instances during COVID of some churches that stood up for themselves, and I think rightly so, and some pastors were arrested and that sort of thing. But I've questioned whether it's really that narrow, because I can think of all kinds of circumstances where it doesn't require me personally to sin, and it doesn't prohibit me personally from doing what God requires. Yet it's a clear abuse of authority. And so that's what I just wanted to bring out about this matter of submission to government, Romans 13. I take it as a general principle, but the authority given to government, it has limitations. And I would suggest, this is my thinking on it, It has to be broader than just resisting if it impacts me specifically. That is to say, imagine a scenario where the government instigates random secret arrest of people. They just disappear. You don't ever see them again. And you know it's happening. It's happening on a grand scale. But the government didn't make you take a part in it, nor has the government arrested you. So following at least a common view of evangelicals, we would do nothing. Any thoughts or ideas or maybe just a totally different perspective on that before we kind of leave government behind and talk about love? Yeah, Susan? Yeah, the only thing I can think of is that in those days, government was different than the government today. We don't have the same kind of government. Not that authority isn't always authority. It is, but and God puts up who he wants and he takes down who he wants, regardless of the times of history. But when Paul was writing the epistles, perhaps he was thinking that And rightly so. The Christian life is not about politics. The Christian life is about, and it's not about fixing this world. Not necessarily. It's about growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and fulfilling his plan for your life. So there may be things that he wants you to do that, um, might go against the government. I can't think of an instance of that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And so maybe Paul was more interested in directing people to grow their Christian lives rather than, let's throw down Caesar, let's take over the government of Israel, let's fight off the Romans, let's let's make this world a better world. And not that there isn't room for that, but I'm just speculating. Yeah, that's it. And we know during this time, and it would escalate, you know, after Paul would write, Paul's not that far away from when the Romans come and destroy Jerusalem, but what precipitated that was you did have what we would consider terrorism happening in Israel. Zealots, other groups of people, quick in and out assassinations, things like that. So yeah, there could certainly be some of this sort of mounting the rebellion. I see two other hands raised. Jud, is that you? Yeah, yeah. I think because of our specific form of government, right, that we are governed by the Constitution and we have separation of powers, I think just because the government tells you to do something at one point in time, that can easily be reversed at a future point in time. And my ultimate example is like the COVID vaccine. Does the government have a right to tell you that you have to get a COVID vaccine? I think the answer is absolutely not. If they tell you you have to get a COVID vaccine and I say they do not have the right to tell me that I have to get a COVID vaccine, I'm not going to get it. And I don't think that that's violating Romans 13 at all. If you're in a different form of government, I mean, maybe they have the right to tell you to do things, but under our form of government, I just think that they don't. And even if they do at a certain point in time, that may go through legal challenges in the court system, and they may reverse it at a future point in time. It's a little different for us as U.S. citizens, and I agree with Sue's comment, right? Our primary concern, of course, should be, you know, our heavenly citizenship. But as earthly citizens, we want to make sure that we're not violating scripture, but I think it's a little bit more nuanced under our form of government than under other forms of government. Well, we kind of know that one day we will be forced to put a mark on ourselves in order to buy and sell. The Bible tells us not to do that. So we have to go by the Bible. And yeah, that was to me the most scary thing about that COVID vaccine is to me, that was clearly a precursor to the Mark of the Beast, right? What is the Mark of the Beast gonna be like? Everybody's doing it, you do it, or you cannot participate in society. And to me, that COVID vaccine came very close to giving you a snapshot of what that's gonna look like. and how easy it would be to enforce it, right? But, Judge, you said something that's a very interesting comment, and it's something I've argued elsewhere in a paper I wrote, and I haven't heard it much, but in our style of government, it is different. And when we talk about the government being able to tell us to do something or whatever, what if what the government's telling you is expressly contradictory to the United States Constitution, which mandating COVID shots obviously is. And this same passage would tell us to honor the laws, right? And the Constitution's the one at the top. So I'm just suggesting, it really is nuanced because sometimes, frequently, what will happen is something that, you know, it is, you know, contrary to other law in this country. And of course it takes time to work that through the courts and all that. And, and, and so it's, it's not as simple as kind of, if they, you know, if the government tells you to do it and it's not a sin, right, they would say, you know, and I would hear people saying, well, there's nothing sinful about taking a COVID shot so they can make you do it. I, I, I think we're missing something, but Dan, Yeah, I was going to say, so I think Romans 13 here is more like a maxim or it's more like a default mindset of a Christian. And I think it's given primarily as a witnessing tool to show a government that Christians are in fact productive and good for society. And also to comment on the COVID issue, I wouldn't even argue Romans 13 if I was arguing for COVID or not COVID shot, I would argue constitution. We don't even need to bring Romans 13 into the issue because the law of the land already has provisions to fight against such a stupid mandate. So that's what I would say about this section of Romans 13. Yeah. Yeah. My, my comment about the constitution is, In our style of government, think about this. If we have to submit to the government, and let's just suppose you had a directive from a local mayor, but you had a directive from the governor, at least as we're set up in Texas, the governor's directive would supersede it as a matter of law, and the Constitution would supersede all of it. And I think sometimes when we talk about this issue, it needs to be brought in. And in the example I had mentioned before, where I've brought it in as an issue, it was dealing with this matter of the death penalty, that the constitution ensures you get effective assistance or process So suppose somebody has a trial and they find him guilty and give him a death penalty. Uh, but his, his lawyer was asleep during most of the trial. Is that okay? Uh, that's actually happened. It's not a hypothetical. No, it's not. Okay. Yeah. So, um, but I'm just saying, you know, I'm saying it's, it's, it's, um, we, we, we want simple answers for multifaceted questions and in, in, in, in Christians also, you know, our culture does. We can do it. We want it to be really easy. And I really think this issue is not really easy. Someone else had their hand up just a moment ago, I thought. Oh, I did. Yeah, go ahead. I just wanted to say that the Christian life is not a formulaic thing where you can come up with 24 ways to follow the Christian life and you're good to go. Um, every day, if you are, because, because you're, you're living every day out and every day to you has new experiences, even though God knows what's going to happen, you don't. So you have decisions to make all the time. Are you going to follow what the Holy Spirit inside of you is leading you to do? might that might take you to your comfort zone might make you witness to people you don't really want to or Might make you do more things, but the bottom line is everything is in flux everything's the moving part so that you have decisions to make constantly and Your only reference is Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit and of course the Word of God so you have to navigate those waters and I don't think they're cut and dried. I don't think anybody can say there's a handy dandy list, and if he fits all of these criteria, then he's living the Christian life. I think you got to think outside the box sometimes, and I think that as your personal relationship with God means that it's between him and you, and you have to follow the Bible, you have to follow the word, absolutely. You can't go off on your own into the toolies, but It is a living, moving part existence. It seems like, to me, my observation is that a great many Christians really do view it as a list. It's easy to get from a list to legalism, but also, it's what you said. The list just won't work. It's just not going to handle every circumstance. You know, when Paul gets here into Romans 13, we're talking about, he's assuming that we have Romans 8 on the mind, that we're thinking about the idea of someone walking in the spirit, and what will walking in the spirit look like in relation to human government, that kind of thing. It's, absolutely, this wanting to oversimplify it, have it as a list. You know, the thing what a list does for you, you don't have to really know the word of God once you figure out your list. You don't have to really probe these things, and anyway, it gets you in a lot of trouble. So, you know, one good example of, you know, disobeying authorities that we see is hiding people from getting arrested. They did it with Paul. Rahab did it with the spies. You know, and, and, uh, you know, the Corey, Tim bones family did that for the Jews and lots of others did people before they were betrayed, people helped hide and Frank's family. Um, you know, so those are examples where, where, you know, they're, you know, Christians are defined, the government's express command, even though what the government required did not require the Tim bone family themselves to, sin. Those are the things, anyway, that I wrestle with. It seems to me that it is kind of... I think this section is something that has been said, like a maxim. It's a general rule, but it's not an absolute. I also think it may not be as simple as just kind of that formula, like I say, that I was taught in Bible college. If we see the government doing something that in isolation may seem fairly innocuous, but you know for a fact it's part of a larger plan to do evil, then do you do something? Or you say, well, that one thing in isolation, they've They've now told us that Jewish people can't stay out after six o'clock. That doesn't make me sin. That's okay, I'm not gonna say anything. Or do you say, wait a second, this is moving somewhere. In our own culture, we're witnessing in small steps, but it's getting faster, attacks on free speech. We have the ministry of truth being alive and well. We call it fact checkers. There was some article just today coming out about the, recent presidential debate and how the fact checkers told one of the candidates they were wrong. And now it turns out the candidate was correct and the fact checkers were not. When you start seeing these things though, maybe things that in isolation are okay, but when you start putting two and two together and getting four, you say, wait a second, something's going on. And then you think about what the Bible says about the coming Antichrist. John would say there are many antichrists so far, you know, already, and we know one's coming, but he makes that statement at the end of 1 John, near the end of 1 John 5, that the world is under the sway of the evil one. We kind of have an expectation, maybe, of seeing these sorts of things happen, and I'm just raising the question. I'm still kind of working through that in my mind, but I wonder if you see things in isolation are okay, okay in the sense that they don't directly require me to sin, not okay in the sense that they're right, but you also see a larger movement or trend. Should we just be silent or should we speak? Dart? I agree with what you're saying. However, Romans 13.1 is problematic for me. It just seems so out of context to the rest of the passage. And I wonder sometimes when he talks about the governing authorities, if he's not talking about the synagogue and the authorities of the church, because obviously you can't be submitting to every single authority, government on the earth. Just want to throw that out there. Yeah, yeah. That's a real possibility. That's a real possibility that he's talking about the synagogues and the Jews. Yeah, I thought about that. I don't know. The problem is he talks about them having the sword, and that's really a Roman government thing. That's why the Jews needed Pontius Pilate's help of Jesus. You can read it and see the words. There's nothing but inherently confusing about the words. And I think what we can all see, and it's really kind of my point is, this is not easy to work out in our thinking. And what I think has happened to a large degree among evangelicals is that they've turned this into a very simple formula and it's not. if it doesn't require me to send it's okay, if the government were rounding up children randomly and shooting them, but I had no children to worry would have this happen and they're not making me shoot them, then according to the formula I was taught in Bible college, I'm just to submit to that and I can vote or whatever. And I'm just saying it's easy to come up with these examples that like, You know, it's a surprising outcome if I'm to do nothing, I guess. Uh, dark. I think there are plenty of other passages in the Bible that talks about how we should, we interreact with society to do good, to fight for those who need someone to fight for them and forth. I think just eliminating Romans 13 one doesn't remove our responsibility. to be part of society and try to live a godly life. I still think Paul put that in there just so the Romans wouldn't be pissed at him. And you know, the Jews were constantly looking for somebody to kick Rome out. So that's just my thoughts. But it's a good point that, you know, whatever, however we take it, however we work this out, We do have other passages that talk about the treatment of people. And it's interesting how often, of course, a lot of times in the Old Testament, it's within Israel that he's dealing with it, but not always. God comes down on a nation for what they're like. The book of Nahum, that no one ever studies hardly, It's got some of the most beautiful poetry in the whole of the Old Testament, but in Nahum, he calls Nineveh the bloody city and pronounces judgment on him. But it makes you wonder, well, the government was okay with all that, but the people are fixing to be judged. Clearly there was some Those people had a responsibility not to participate in that stuff, I guess, or something. You know, it's multifaceted. Well, let's push on a little further then with this. You know, he ends with, in verse seven, with paying the obligations to everybody. And it's not limited to financial obligations. That is important because, you know, he says taxes to who you owe taxes. Jesus taught that. You know, render to Caesar what's his. tolls, which is another tax, but then he says respect and honor, and it kind of leads to the next statement, which is don't owe anything. Now, the word owe can mean money, but it can also mean social responsibilities, like what he was just saying, pay respect to those you owe respect, honor to those you owe honor. that word can mean something like honored. So it doesn't have to just mean money. And in this context, it could even mean both because verse seven is telling you to pay money, but it's also telling you to pay other things. In any event, he says, don't owe anything to anyone. Accept to love one another. Now, this verse could be used, you know, taken to mean that you shouldn't have any financial debts. And some would take it like Zane Hodges in his commentary takes it that the idea is that your debts, whether they be financial or otherwise, should be timely paid. You know, certainly not being indebted is, you know, to the extent that it's possible is a wise choice. And certainly it's a problem if Christians don't pay their debts. I'm talking now about financial debts. That's a real problem It's it's you know, the law allows you to to to file bankruptcy. You don't want to pay anybody But it should mean something when you sign pieces of paper and say you're going to pay them and then you know Then you then you don't so We it's certainly the case I think with or without this passage that we as Christians are should pay the debts that we owe. And I say that knowing things happen where it can't be done. I get that. But it's just a general principle. But just understand this has taken a couple of different ways. And let's say one is that we shouldn't be indebted at all, except to love one another. And the other would be more like the idea of you shouldn't be past due on your obligations. open to thoughts on that, but I'll pause in just a second. I mean, there are really a couple of ways to take it, and you can look at different commentaries, you'll see it differently. But the big key here is he introduces this idea of love. Whatever the debts, we have a debt that never gets fully paid, and that's that we love one another, okay? And the one who loves one another has fulfilled the law. I'm gonna say some things about love here that I think are important, but any thoughts or comments, though, Anyone want to share about this matter of not owing anybody anything? Yeah. Yeah. I think he's talking about, um, you know, like Jesus in one, in one of the gospels, Jesus put the Lord's model prayer by saying, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And in the context of this paragraph, it seems that he's talking about interpersonal relationships. And so I would say that if you cause wrong to somebody, make it right immediately. Like don't, don't put off reconciling. with a person, and I think that's more the idea he has here about owing something. Don't put yourself in a position where you're constantly giving offense and not making it right, or if you're the one who's offended, don't hold a grudge. I think that's the idea. Well, if it's this paragraph, but then, of course, you know, then the immediately prior verse is telling us to pay taxes. So, but I hear you and it may be in order. Maybe it may be some of both Judd. Yeah, I think I've mentioned this before, but I would take it in that more narrow sense, because what we don't want to do is read Romans 13.8 with our modern Western American mindset put on, right? It wasn't written to modern Western Americans. It was written to ancient Semitic Jewish slash Gentile audience. And debt in the U.S. has been normalized. It's not even like that in Europe. Right. And I've met before. Right. I listen to a lot of YouTube videos from Europeans and especially the Germans when they ask the question, what's what are some things that, you know, when you've lived in the U.S. for those who have lived in the U.S. are very different from Germany. And one of the ones that always comes up is the debt culture. They say everybody's in debt over there. It's absolutely insanity. You're a young person, you come out of college and you've got a $100,000 student loan bill for a gender studies degree, which is why we have all this gender insanity. A lot of those people that are in all that debt have to pay off. their debt using what they learned in those degrees, which is totally biblical. But we can't look at it from that standpoint. Debt in the Bible, you have to look at it from the Leviticus 26 standpoint, which says that If you're under the curse, then you're a borrower and not a lender. If you're under the blessing, then you're a lender and not a borrower. The scripture lays out that as believers, if you've lived out the Christian life, the normal status quo is that you've got additional resources that you can lend to those who are in need. Right. Dave Ramsey does a good job of this. That's his baby step eight. Right. When you go through all the steps and you're totally debt free and you've got enough income from your investments to pay your living expenses so you don't need to income from work to live. Then you go to that baby step eight and you start giving your money away because now I've got an abundance. Now I can Lend and if I don't get paid back, it doesn't matter. I don't need to charge interest or I could just give my money away That's where we should be as believers. We should not be in debt and You're short-circuiting God's Ability to just flat-out give you things when you borrow the money for it, and I think he will I think if you decide that you know what I think Romans 13 8 I'm taking that in the narrower view of that it means I should not be borrowing any money for anything at all whatsoever, then God says, oh, okay, then I think I'll just give it to you. I think there's a lot to commend what you said, and it is true. You said it, we've normalized it here, and it's so ubiquitous that we can't If something is so widespread, we really are challenged. If we do come to a passage, it clearly says don't do that. So it's difficult for us to, I think as Americans, to accept that possibility. When I traveled to China, one of the things I learned there, the young guide, and she took us all over the country and with a large group of other families, because we were there for an adoption, But what I found fascinating was just her telling her story. She was engaged to be married. And what was normative there when you're engaged is you save up the money together to buy your house, cash outright. There was no borrowing. You couldn't mortgage. That's not even a possibility. It was just that. And it was interesting to me, but then I thought, what's a great motivator? When you're waiting to have that money together to buy that house before you're married, you'd be surprised. Couples will put their hard work together in a few years to have that house bought. And then, of course, it frees up ministry possibilities. Darn, I saw you had a hand up. I agree with Judd that our society has a tremendously dysfunctional relationship with debt caused by big corporations and a lot of other things. When I worked at the university, I taught a course on financial literacy to 18-year-olds. They had no clue that when they went outside the classroom and put their credit card in a machine to get Fritos and a Coke, that they were going into debt. It was insane, actually. But also, I think leveraging debt has a place. I'm not one to say you should never be in debt. You should never be in unprofessional debt. You should be able to use debt appropriately. I hate to sound like Camilla Harris, but I grew up in a poor house, a wooden house on blocks in Miami with a single mother. My father had died. If I had not used debt appropriately, I would not be where I am today, almost debt free. So I think it has to be measured correctly. And I think it is something, though, that we do have to rely on God. We should never go into debt without praying about it and listening to God. It seems like this is one of those areas that might be uncomfortable for a lot of preachers to talk about, because you know so many people are in debt too much. And it may be hard for them to hear it, but I think we probably could all agree that debt can become a set of prison bars really easy. And I knew somebody who's now on the mission field, but this person, because of the debt that had to be dealt with before they could do this mission work, it delayed the ministry for a long, like a decade. I'd like you and everyone to think about the debt our country is in. We can barely pay the interest on, in fact, I've heard that 75% of our taxes go to paying off our debt. Only 25% is used for our betterment. Well, and it's interesting about that. This is part of the issue that Judd was outlining. If debt's completely normalized, most people, I guess, don't care. And if you go back to the 1980s, this was This was a big thing within the political platform on both sides, addressing the matter of debt. We came out of the Reagan administration with a much higher federal deficit, and it became a big thing when George Bush Sr. was running. He, in fact, did do a lot at that time. There was a focus on it of trying to get this under control. Like nobody's even talking about it. And I'll hear people say one part of the other is a big spender. History bears out that both parties are out of control on the spending. We owe so much money, we can't even get our hands around it. And now it's like the hands have been thrown in the air because after all, a privately held company called the Federal Reserve Board is happy to just print more money. So the way we think about these things, you know, having a biblical mindset ought to at least give us a very different view of the matter of debt. I think I see maybe Dan and, I don't know, Judd, do you have your hand raised? Either one. Yeah. So there's a really practical side of this too. When you live the way Americans are living now, where they just buy everything on debt, It makes you foolish. It makes you not prudent with money. You begin to lose sight of the value of what you earn. I hate this money system we have in this country. They punish you for saving money. You have to get credit. I waited so long to get a credit card. And by the time I finally got one, they said, insufficient credit history. And I had thousands of dollars in the bank as collateral against the credit. And I had to fight tooth and nail to even get a credit card. And I hate having credit card and I never use the damn thing. I just don't like this debt system. The Germans are right. Like we're fools with money in this country. And it's a, it's a measure of our maturity, I think. And ignorance. Ignorance. Yeah. Ignorance. How would Satan, Now put on the Bible hat again and think about if you wanted to incapacitate a country That really had rich resources Isn't this a really clever way to do it? Yeah You know betcha just like the Weimar Republic That led to Hitler. Yeah after World War one. I mean They had to bring wheelbarrows to pay for bread. And I'm afraid we're headed in that direction because of ignorance of history. Nobody wants to know history. Nobody knows history. And so we're bound to repeat it. I agree with that. And, you know, I've, I've frequently recommend history books and, and, and, and the reason I don't think history will, will help us prevent remaking the mistakes, but I tell you what, from those who have, have a biblical mindset, can see the same playbook coming up again. I saw, Susan, you had your hand raised. Yes, I just wanted to chime in. I just wanted to chime in on this whole credit thing. So I grew up, this is my third continent that I live on. And when I moved to the United States, we grew up, we were raised with no credit at all. There was no credit system. And even till today in the Netherlands, even though people do have a credit card, you cannot be in debt to use your credit card. So if you wanna use your credit card, you must have money in your savings account or in your checking account because it's tied together. If you are below a certain amount in your bank account, you cannot use your credit card. And I remember when I came here and wanted to buy a house and we had money and I went to the bank, they said, oh, we could not take your money. Where does it come from? What do you mean, where does it come from? I saved my money. Well, you have no credit, you have no this, you know? So I think, that the whole system here in America put people into debt because even till today when I go to Suriname or anywhere else there's no credit required to purchase something even from an The only time when somebody probably would make a debt is maybe by a house. And even then, when they want to buy a house, they can go to the bank and say, hey, I saved up X amount of thousands of dollars. And the bank would not not question because that's the normal way, you know. So it's. I just waited. My daughter was 23 when she got a credit card. And I was like, so hesitant to get her one because it's so easy for them to get into debt because they require that, you know, you got to build a credit score. You got to do this. You know, if you have perfect credit, they don't give you anything. Even if you pay it off, you can't pay it off all the way because it will get a hit on your credit card or your credit score. It's a lost cause situation. Right, right. They'll tell you you'll get, it'll hurt your credit to remove a credit card, to close it out, drop it up. Yeah, it's a real problem and it's a real trap. And it's obviously, it seems to me, and I know like Dave Ramsey is, a lot of his ministry is that, and a lot of churches will use his series. And I think we've done it before. I think credit cards are evil, I just do. I think the whole concept of, okay, don't worry about it. If you don't have money, come on in. And of course, if you don't pay your debts, Uncle Louie will come over and break a couple of kneecaps, but don't worry about that now. It is legalized racketeering is what it is. Yeah, it's got an insane amount of interest. Judd, did you still have a hand up? Yeah, no, I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'm glad Susan jumped in because she, you know, has lived in Suriname and the Netherlands where the attitude toward debt is extremely different. And then to Dan's comment, it's so funny, that FICO score, right? What they want you to do is maximize your FICO score. But what is a FICO score? A FICO score is a good debtor score. Are you a good debtor, right? Do you have a lot of debt available that you haven't used? When you've had debt, are you paying it off on time? The moment that you're in the position where you're totally debt free and you don't borrow money and you don't have credit cards, your FICO score goes way, way down, right? So if I have $5 million in the bank, no credit cards and no loans, my FICO score is really low. Whereas, if my net worth is negative, but I'm a very good debtor, and I use my credit cards, and I pay my mortgage, and I pay my car loan, and I pay my student loan, and I pay my boat loan, etc., etc., my FICO score is hugely high, but I have a negative net worth. So what that FICO score is telling you is that person B that has a negative net worth is financially better than that person A who has a $5 million net worth and no debt. It's absolute insanity. Yeah. May I say something? It's a question maybe. I owe nothing. I have a credit card. I put absolutely everything that I buy from dinners to clothes to medicine. I put everything on my credit card, but I pay that debt off every month when the bill comes. So I, and I have plenty of money in the bank to buy everything in cash or check or whatever. I don't need to put it on a credit card. The only reason I do is I like to see what I buy every month, how much I've spent, and I don't go over a certain amount. I keep it way, way under what I have. So I guess that's what keeps my credit score high is because I do use my credit card. Yeah, it does. And of course, in a real sense, you're actually not not really going into debt. I mean, yeah, you're really the problem is happening, right, is that people. The whole debt structure is designed to appeal to our sin nature, part of which has just sort of a discontent with what we currently have. We need a little more. We can't afford a little more, but the card allows us to afford a little more. But then we're in a trap where we never really get ahead. In fact, we usually lose ground. And of course, it's why you have a whole legal industry of consumers doing bankruptcies and all that. It goes against what we have learned in the Bible. It's to be content with whatever we have. Be content, whether it's little or nothing. be content because God will provide. I think about that every time the hurricane comes by and I put things away and I think they're all God's things. They're not mine. He's just letting me use them for a time so I can praise him for the blessings that I have and praise him for what I don't have. Well, you know, Carol, I do the same thing as you know, I think I put everything on a credit card and then automatically my credit card is paid through my bank account. I do that because I don't want direct access to my bank account, right? If I had a debit card, I think it's dangerous from a cybersecurity standpoint, but there is one problem with doing that, right? Psychologically, when you charge something on a credit card, there's no pain point So they have done studies, and Dave Ramsey brings this out, where you will almost always, right, not everybody, but the vast majority of people will spend more money if they spend it on a credit card than if they pay cash, because there's no pain point that, hey, I'm actually paying this. What your mind does is say, hey, This is going on this little piece of plastic right and the pain point doesn't come until you get your credit card bill and then it's too late. So you do really have to be careful with that and also people tend sometimes. not to look at what things cost when they're shopping. They just say, I need this thing at this time, there it is, bang, here's my credit card. They don't comparison shop and they don't try and get the best deal because they can get it immediately, there's no pain point. Requires some discipline. Well, I'm going to have to close out. I've got to get a kid somewhere, and this has been a very good conversation. These are the kind of things that are harder to deal with, but we need to. Very practical stuff in church settings, and hopefully trying to pass some of this along to younger people. Because this credit thing tries to, you know, they're on the college campuses when you're there as a first year student trying to get you locked up. But I just would say there was a comment, Judge, you made that's so, so important that, you know, when you are debt free, you really have an ability to help other people, to minister other people. And we see that in the scripture that we should do those things. And a lot of people have a heart for it and they've never had the ability to do it because they're trapped also. And I do think, yeah. You can do it unanimously. You don't have to let anyone know that you've done it. You don't even let the people know where their help came from. It comes from God. Basically, it comes from God, even though He's worked through you. Yeah. God blesses Christians financially, and sometimes we abuse it by either just spending on ourselves or mishandling debt. But it really is so that we can bless others. I think that was just such an important point. It frees up ministry opportunities to handle debt in a responsible way and to do everything possible to try to be debt free. Well, we'll next week take up this matter of love and how it fulfills the righteousness of the law of the Old Testament. So looking forward to that. Hope everybody has a good weekend and a good Sunday. And think about gun control. And I would like to know what people think about gun control.