The following is a production of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and is made possible by the generous financial support of our listeners and friends. For more information about the seminary, how you can support it, or applying to become a student, please visit GPTS.edu. Welcome to another edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. My name is Zach Groff, and I'm your host, also the Director of Advancement and Admissions here at the seminary, and I have with me, joining remotely by Zoom, Dr. Barry York of Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Dr. York, thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me on, Zach. It's good to see you again. Dr. York is the president of the seminary up there in Pittsburgh, but more significantly, he's a repeat guest on my podcast. I had the delight of interviewing him a couple of years ago about his excellent book on the marks of the church, and I recommend that to our listeners. You can find that interview online, and you can find that book wherever books are sold. Today we'll be discussing the 189th Synod of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of America, the RPCNA. This synod met on June 14th through 17th at Indiana Wesleyan University in Marion, Indiana, And it would have been the 190th Synod, except for the fact that last year, the Synod didn't meet due to, I think, a thing called COVID and pandemic-related shutdowns and travel restrictions. But this year, the brothers were delighted to be able to meet, though it was also a difficult year for them, and we're going to hear about that. For those who are not familiar with the RPCNA, I am not going to ask Dr. York to give us a broad introduction to the denomination. We've done that previously on the podcast in previous years when I interviewed the good men from the Jerusalem Chamber. They were very kind to give us an overview of what the RPCNA is, and so I refer our listeners to those podcasts. Dr. York, before we dive into the business of the Synod, I'm always interested to hear about the statistics of the different denominations, the statistics that are reported at their national level meetings. How many congregations are in the RPCNA today, and where are they located, generally speaking? We have about 105 congregations. Some of those are mission churches. We have groups of churches, I would say, here in Pennsylvania, out in Indiana, Kansas. But we do, you know, go from the east to the west coast, as well as have congregations located in Canada. And who attended this year's synod? Were you able to capture, I should say, delegates from every one of your churches or at least every presbytery or area? And how many delegates total were present too? Our delegates were mostly just from the United States. Our Canadian brothers had to zoom in, and we also have a presbytery that we have oversight of in Japan, and so our Japanese brothers also had to zoom in. I should have gotten the statistics on the number of delegates. I can't recall that right off hand, but I would say it's around 150 or so. Now, when you say that the Canadian and Japanese delegates zoomed in, did they zoom in as observers and viewers, or were they granted privileges to enter into deliberation and even to cast votes? Yeah, they were allowed to fully participate in the deliberations. We had one of our students here actually at RPTS was managing that and informing the moderator when one of those men wanted to speak and that type of thing. Well, these are interesting developments because in the past, Robert's Rules was not structured necessarily for teleconferencing, and they were slowly introducing aspects of teleconferencing and videoconferencing into Robert's Rules. And I think in the latest revision, which is what, the 11th or 12th, I think the 12th edition of Robert's Rules, there's a much expanded section on how to handle teleconferencing and videoconferencing. precisely because of the of the experiences which we had last year in a variety of parliamentary settings such as your synod meeting and where we couldn't get a lot of guys there just because of travel restrictions. So it's interesting to see how different churches and denominations handle this. I think the smaller bodies are much more able and better able to incorporate the new rules. I can't imagine doing this in a setting such as the PCA General Assembly, where we had 2,114 commissioners. It just wouldn't have worked. I don't think there's a Zoom room big enough. to accommodate even a significant portion of that number. But in a group of 150 or of 200 or something like that, I think that it's much more feasible. It's interesting to see how different churches have adjusted that way. Now, getting down to business, can you give us a brief overview of what happened over the course of the Synod? If you provide bare bones here, then we can flesh it out a little bit more with follow-up questions. Zach, this year marks my 30th year as an ordained pastor in the RPCNA, and I have to say that this was the heaviest synod that I've ever experienced. It's hard to describe it otherwise. I think that's just the takeaway. We had a number of judicial matters that were before us, and we're seeing people struggling with really deep issues, and so that made it difficult, as well as the fact that because of things related to COVID, and I just see Satan attacking the church, not just the RPCNA, but other bodies as well. There's just a sense that there was a battle going on, and we were seeking the Lord to help us through these things. We were encouraged. I mean, there was a focus on the preaching and devotions that we have each day. The men brought messages regarding the fruit of the Spirit. There was hearty song singing. There were actual times devoted to prayer. So that was encouraging, just to get the spiritual nourishment that we needed. But again, our hearts were heavy as we dealt with a number of matters. I think one brother in summarizing the goings-on in your synod this year said, heads and beards were visibly more gray, and pages who ordinarily serve the court with passing out papers were stationed behind screens to monitor delegates over Zoom, unable to attend due to international restrictions. For some, tensions were high, and for many, hearts were very heavy. understanding that part of the heaviness was not being able to gather together in person in full as you're used to doing and as you delight in doing. I know that fellowship and fraternal bonds expressed in physical fellowship is one of the hallmarks of the RPCNA and your gatherings, and being able to sing those psalms together in a large assembly, especially in a denomination of generally smaller congregations, it's a great delight for brothers and a good encouragement. But what else made this difficult? We did have three different judicial committees that started off. I mean, that's how we started off the first session, is approving the appointment of those that were to meet there. They were dismissed from the regular meeting of synods so they could go and take care of these matters. And I guess I would characterize them, one was a theological matter, one was a moral matter, and one was a ecclesiastical matter. So we had the full gamut of issues that we were dealing with. Some of those got dealt with effectively at the meeting, and others are still carrying on and trying to, since Senate, trying to continue to take care of these things with the guidance and help of Senate. And that really was the bulk of the business this year were judicial matters. And for our listeners who have followed the denominational debrief, you know that I don't really get into judicial matters on the podcast. I don't necessarily think that's helpful or constructive in most cases. And so, as a result, this interview may be a bit shorter than what we're used to, but I think that some general statements can be made as we try to get a grip on what is going on in the RPC&A and how we can be praying for our brothers without getting into nitty-gritty that would compromise the work of these committees and any commissions which came out of them. I think we would be interested to know how best we, as brothers and sisters in other churches, can continue to uphold the RPCNA in prayer. I appreciate that spirit, Zach, and that's the way I want to answer the questions, in that spirit, just for prayer. One of the matters involved a dear friend of mine, Dr. Michael Lefebvre, who had written a book called The Liturgy of Creation. And that book, along with an article that he had posted online, drew a lot of attention in our church. Michael was our board chairman at the seminary and adjunct faculty member here. And today he's no longer in the church with us, and so it had to do with concerns regarding evolutionary teachings that are found in his writings. And so that's just a sad thing. I've known Michael, I was there in the living room when he first announced he wanted to come in and seek pastoral ministry. And so there's just been a lot of heartache over the last couple of years as we've tried to work through that issue. And so this greatly saddens us. He's a very gifted man. So that's one thing you could just pray for, is just for him and for the ongoing healing of the Church as we've had to discuss difficult things. Another issue is a congregation having to deal with child molestation by another minor, and that's because of Presbytery Commission, and concerns both about what was happening at the Church, as well as how it was handled by the Presbytery, that came up to Synod. And all I'm going to say about that is the Synod actually took over original jurisdiction of that matter, and so there's a Synod Commission looking into that. And so we just really need to ask God to help those men who are leading in that situation, and I just keep praying that God would, you know, bring forth His light and truth and bring healing to the church regarding that matter. And both of those situations, by the way, are in my old home presbytery, the Great Lakes Gulf Presbytery, and so I just really feel for those men there and the congregations there, so we just really need to keep praying for them. We also had a situation up in one of our churches in Canada where there was a trial of a minister, and it got kind of messy because of COVID matters and the inability to meet easily, and questions were raised regarding that, and sent a gate council to that presbytery, so they're still trying to deal with that matter. And so those things, plus, you know, we had a tragedy of one of our pastors in California, a few weeks or a month or two after sin had met, where his life was taken. So that you can just sense the heaviness, just in sharing those matters with you that we've been going through. And so we do appreciate prayer that God would help us overcome them. Thank you for opening that up for us, Dr. York, and I know it's not a pleasant thing to rehearse it, and these issues are ongoing, as you mentioned, with commissions being formed out of the work of the Synod. That means that men are still meeting and still working this out with the mandate and the authority of the Synod backing them up to bring these conflicts to a resolution. And certainly we will continue to pray that the Lord would prosper and protect the RPCNA even through these trials and these difficulties, and may He use them as a scouring, as it were, to sanctify His Bride and beautify His Church. I think that he is faithful to use these kinds of issues, even in the highest courts of the Church, to accomplish his will for our good and his glory and the salvation of sinners and of men. Moving on from those things, I think we've said all that would be appropriate to say on a podcast of this nature. I do want to ask if there were any developments in foreign or domestic missions which you would like to highlight, particularly because the RPCNA is unique among most of the churches which I interview on this podcast in that you're an international denomination, not just in North America, but even across the Pacific Ocean, and I want to give you an opportunity to speak to some of the efforts that you all are making to see native denominations and national presbyteries and denominations formed abroad. Yeah, we are very thankful for our brothers and sisters across the world and several nations that we have rich fellowship with, and you can travel over there and step into their churches and you feel like you're at home. We have what is called an RP Global Alliance, which is not an official court of the Church, but is a cooperative effort so that we are sharing resources and information with one another and trying to work in a cooperative way, whether it's in mission work or, for instance, theological education. So I, once or twice a year, get on a Zoom meeting like this with some of the representatives in other places, like in Ireland, Scotland, Australia, Japan, and we just talk shop. try to think of ways that we can encourage one another in our ongoing theological education. The Global Alliance may have a new member. One of the things that we were petitioned with at Synod came from our Canadian churches. They are asking to be able to form their own denomination out of us. The initial steps toward that was approved at Synod. And so they'll begin that process. There's not a final end date on that yet, but there's certainly this coming year they're going to start taking steps in that direction. And so they will really miss their presence because there's a lot of gifted men that come descended from Canada and I get a lot of encouragement from them. We're still excited to see them wanting to You know, raise their banner and testimony there in Canada in an ongoing and unique way. With respect to foreign missions, we're encouraged. God continues to open doors for us. Our South Sudan work that was started well over a decade ago, led by Vince Ward, a Canadian pastor. We really saw the Lord do a great work. Lots of converts there in South Sudan and the congregations formed. To be honest, that work took some hits by some of the men that had been ordained, indigenous men that had been ordained. falling away, and so I called it South Sudan 2.0. We sent a new team of men there, actually a couple of graduates from our seminary here that I'm really excited about, really gifted men that are there now. They're, in a sense, doing some rebuilding and deepening of the work. I just heard a report from them not too long ago, and was really encouraged. It's hard work, and there's challenges, but there's still many people there that are professing the name of the Lord, and they're really working on matters related to church governance. this greater theological understanding. So I think that that work is moving in a great direction. We've been encouraged with our ongoing relationship with our work. I'll call it East Asia, just to be careful here. Our missionaries had to leave that country back in 1950 during the communist takeover. And about 20 years ago, connections were reformed with us, and we're just amazed at the work of the Lord there. There were two Presbyteries, now they've organized a third one. We're regularly seeing men coming from there to study with us here at our PTS. A lot of our men go over, although COVID has halted some of that right now, to provide training. And we're continuing to have discussions and foster ways that we can encourage that work, which, by the way, outnumbers the RPCNA in congregations and in membership. So to me, that's really just exciting to see, despite the evil one trying to shut down the gospel there, that it continued to prosper. We also have some works that are developing down in South America. So we're encouraged by that. So the Lord is opening doors. Our church plants in India, our first one there, it continues to go well. And so we're just seeing the Lord opening up these places around the world. And we praise Him. There's a work in Pakistan that's going on. So very exciting time, an opportune time. I think perhaps part of the reason that we're also seeing the evil one attack us is he's trying to discourage us and distract us. It is exciting to hear about how the Lord is particularly bringing you all around a difficult corner in South Sudan. I had heard about that from some of our students here as well, and I'm encouraged by your report on that work. And also, I think it's a wonderful thing that we might see the emergence of a distinct Canadian denomination coming out of the RPCNA. And, of course, you'll be in union with them through the RP Global Alliance, but also through NAPARC, because they'll still be in North America. And so that'll be a wonderful addition to our fellowship there. Dr. York, I want to give you an opportunity to share any final thoughts or even any particularly encouraging highlight in the midst of a difficult synod before we sign off. Yeah, I would just also say that we're continuing to be encouraged with church planting. A lot of our congregations in the RPC&A are pretty young percentage-wise. I'm actually involved in a—our congregation here in Pennsylvania just spawned off a sister work a year ago and already And the Lord is adding to our numbers. And where I live, we just had our first worship service a week or so ago to explore the possibility of a further outreach in our area. And we're seeing that around the country, places and pockets. We used to not have any churches in Texas, and now we have several there. So we're just encouraged that way. One of the things I would ask for prayer for is We have open pulpits, and of course that's my business here, and so we're asking the Lord to keep raising up preachers. It's your business there as well, Zach, and we are thankful for God bringing to us. We have a good crop of men, I think, that will be coming out this year's graduation, and just keep asking God to bring others. So that would be the encouragement, and then just Even though the synod was a heavy one, I think we all left with a real sense that the Lord was with us in the midst of the valley. And, you know, we were just really encouraged to keep our eyes on him. And so I would just end on that note, that the Lord is with his people. That's his promise, great commission promise. And so I'm just thankful for his ongoing presence and blessing despite difficulties. Well, I praise the Lord with you in that he is faithful to gift to his church officers for the right administration of the church and governance of the church, but also for the blessing of his bride in the ministry of the word and sacrament and diaconal care and in all expressions of his love for us. I've enjoyed having you on the podcast. Thank you again, brother, for being with me to open up what was a particularly difficult year, and I trust that our listeners will commit the RPCNA to prayer as the Lord brings the denomination to mind. I'm excited about the friendship and fellowship we have as sister seminaries within the Reformed tradition, And I'm particularly pleased to see you at different meetings where we run into each other. And of course, I always like seeing my buddy Mark Sampson and others from the seminary when we're at different events together. Thank you again, Dr. York. I really appreciate your time. Thank you to the seminary and especially you for getting ready to have another baby here in a few days. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. To help ensure that we can continue to produce content from a Reformed and confessional Presbyterian perspective, please consider making a gift of support in any amount at gpts.edu. For more information about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, please visit gpts.edu. you