Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Welcome to Pilgrim Talk Podcast. My brother kicked over there. I saw his foot hit the ceiling. He did. It was like a jump kick. It was like watching Mr. Miyagi. No, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Wax on, wax off. Wax on, wax off. Oh, man. It's my dojo today. Oh, that's nice. So I do want to thank everybody for joining us and I want to thank you. With me today is... Sensei. Sensei Darryl Kingswood who is suffering with cat scratch fever. It's good. It's Scott Henry who has Saturday Night Fever. We don't. We're very thankful, people. We're the tiny whiteys next time. What's today's subject? Today's subject is, as we continue about church government, we talked about the role of the preacher-pastor. We are now into deacons and elders. So perhaps we ought to start with just what's the difference between an elder and a pastor? Who wants to field that one? A pastor is an elder. But an elder is not necessarily a pastor. Then there we go. Presbyterians like to make the distinction between a teaching elder and a ruling elder. But a teaching elder is a ruling elder. But why I say that is because if you look at 1 Peter 5, notice Peter, as an apostle, calls himself, I am a fellow elder. But there is a particular office that Paul speaks about in Ephesians 4, apostles and prophets and pastors and teachers, which I think is one office, pastor, teacher. And this is the role of a particular man who is called to preach faithfully the word of God. Timothy was called, as an elder, he was also a preacher of the word of pastor. a shepherd of the Church of Jesus Christ. And so you have the distinction between those who rule well. Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 5, let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine now you got a distinction but those who are ruling well and those who are laboring in the word and doctrine preaching and teaching in their ministry right exactly so that's that's how i would understand the distinction you know we're elders but there are specific distinctions within the office of elder between ruling in the congregation and being the primary preacher of the Word of God. And the gifting that goes with that. Yeah. And I think they all should be able to be apt to teach. They should be able to instruct the people of God. But that doesn't mean that they're specifically called to that particular office. Do you think that apt to teach means that everyone ought to be able to preach? All the elders? No, no, no. I think being apt to teach is they are able to instruct in the faith. They ought to be able to teach us. That doesn't mean in a formal context. That can be in their day-to-day involvement in people's lives, and they're able to teach and instruct. They know the Word of God. Simply, that's what it is. They are men who know the Word of God. And so they're able to counsel? Yeah, they're able to counsel, they're able to teach it that way. I mean, teaching doesn't necessarily have to be, as you mentioned, it doesn't have to necessarily mean on Sunday morning in the corporate worship service, but he can come to your home and he can instruct you in the truth of God's word. Or if you've had trouble, he can counsel you. He can counsel you, exactly. And part of his counsel may be, you need to go see the pastor. That's sometimes really good counsel, because they know that pastors have unique experience. More time is spent with a diversity of different issues. And the longer you're in the ministry, the more experience you have under your belt of dealing with things you never thought you might deal with. And this doesn't set the pastor above the other people of the congregation, just simply to say that all three of us have had a number of years of seminary training where we were taught, we were trained in specific areas and aspects to do the work of ministry, which the average church member has not had that ability to be trained. because they were, you know, laboring at a certain job. And why I say that, you know, we as pastors have been called to this vocation. We're not any better than anybody else in the congregation. And the people in the congregation who are faithfully giving of their tithes and their offerings to the work of the church, make it possible for us to fulfill our calling. And so, you know, I would say it this way, we tend the sheep, we watch over the sheep, we care for the sheep. And this is what Jesus said to Peter in John 21, if you love me, feed my sheep, tend my lambs, feed my sheep. And so if you take care of the sheep, the sheep will take care of you as the pastor. And we need to labor at doing that faithfully for the glory of God. And as John MacArthur always liked to say, the pastor's not called to pet the sheep, but to protect the sheep. Yeah. The worth of the pastor is not how well he pets the sheep. A lot of times the sheep want to be pet, petted, you know, rather than protected. Or coddled. That's not what we need. I would like to interject here, we did talk in a previous podcast about pastors who occasionally deviate from the word, right? And they begin, the elders as ruling, the ruling elders, part of their job is to make sure that pastor stays within being governed by the word and faithfully protected. Well, let's go back to what I mentioned before, the government of the church and its officers, Article 30 of the Belgian Confession of Faith, where it talks about the ministers of the word, pastors, who have preached the word, administering the sacraments, elders and deacons, who together with the pastor form the council of the church, that by these means the true religion may be preserved. So there's the responsibility of the elders and deacons right there. you know, that the true religion may be preserved. The true doctrine and the true doctrine everywhere propagated, likewise, transgressors chastened or restrained by spiritual means. And then there's also that the poor in distress may be relieved and comforted according to their necessities, so on and so forth. So there you see that, yeah, the elders have a responsibility, the ruling elders, the oversight to make sure that the one who is called to be the teaching slash ruling elder is preaching God's Word. One of the things I really like about RCUS classist meetings is in our Constitution, I think in Ark 81, they have to get up and answer questions. And it's the ruling elder who gives the... Consistory has come up with the answers, but the ruling elder stands up before everybody else and says, And the question is, is the gospel faithfully proclaimed? It's not asked to the pastor. It's asked to the elders. Because he's going to say, of course it is. Of course he is. He's not going to say, well no. It really helps drive home the point that you as the ruling elder, even though you're not preaching from the pulpit, are responsible to make sure that the gospel is faithfully proclaimed. Exactly. Scott, what are you doing over there? I'm getting, trying to pull up the Constitution because there's specific, it addresses the work of an elder to be the hands and the feet, the eyes and the ears of the pastor. That's in the Director of Worship. No, I'm thinking of the Constitution. You don't have a copy handy, do you? Not in this room. This is the recording studio. You've got to have the documents, man. We ought to be well, you know, we ought to be furnished with our stuff, man. I mean, yeah, when you say that, that is part of then also the directory of worship in the RCUS when it comes to the ordination installation of elders and deacons and the instruction as to what an elder is to do. And that's really the thing that dies in the years. involved in that ministry. And a lot of times it's the elders who are out in the community, know the people, and they're able to, they're interacting, ministering themselves, doing pastoral ministry, really. And then able to say, hey, go to the pastor and say, this person needs to visitation, this person needs, you need to talk to them, or you need to go in and see the pastor, and that would be a good thing, and I'll come with, come with me and we'll go in. But those are the things, I mean, a lot of times you don't see that where the You know, elders see just how big a role and responsibility they have, not just in making sure the pastor's doing what he's supposed to be doing, but they have a responsibility to... Oversee the preaching. Oversee the preaching, but also to be involved in the care... In the lives of the church. of the flock. I believe it's in our Constitution that in a worship service there must be a plurality of elders. So there is overseeing of the faithful preaching of God's Word. Because how will the elders then be able to stand up in front of the classes and then make it clear that the gospel is being preached if they're not overseeing the preaching. So there's a great responsibility. They're not passive in the worship service. Neither is those that are not church officers. You're not passive. You're actively listening and understanding and discerning in your mind whether or not what's being said is in consistence with the word of God. Yeah, and that's why historically you see it in many of the Reformed denominations where the elders would actually sit in the front row of the church. Do you know who still does that? Who does that? Was that the Heritage Reformed Church? Netherlands Reformed, yeah. Well, it's not part of the knowledge. They get up and they shake his hand when he leaves the pulpit, right? Yeah, but they're still doing that at the church that dr. Beeky's church was his hair. Yeah, but one of them what what they do is when the pastor comes down from the pulpit all of the elders stand in a line and shake his hand as he goes by which Notifies the whole congregation that they received that preaching that he was faithfully preaching the Word of God I don't I remember that came up with him and they sort of led him into the pool, right exactly and Actually, I was speaking to Reverend Mike Wojtek of the RCWS once and he said when he first took the church in, I think it was in Lodi at that time, he said for the first month he had the elder give up and give the announcement and then invite him into the pulpit so the people would realize. The elders are responsible for this pulpit. So there's an active, visible way in which they're showing their oversight. So the people of the congregation can see our elders are actively involved in this. Now, can anything devolve into just a ritual? Well, sure. But you know, it began with that understanding that there is a very real and serious responsibility that the elders have to play. in the church, in the body of Christ. Yeah. Although we went back on your point, we sort of made the point that the elders were involved in the church, and then we went back to the pulpit. Do you want to say anything else about being involved in the hands and feet and eyes and ears with the lives of the people in the pupils? Well, I think that comes down to the day-to-day lives often. You know, like, for example, I'm called to minister in a small town. Well, in a small town, these are people who have lived, many of them are related. So they know one another and they're interacting regularly with one another in a way that it wouldn't be possible for me to do that. It's just impossible. But they're there, and so they're aware of what's going on. They know the history of people. They've lived with them sometimes for 30, 40, 50 years. And so they have an advantage, and they can come in and say, hey, let me tell you something about this person. And let me tell you something, what might have happened 20 years ago. They lost a child. And that helps you understand their history. Things that the elders can help that way, or somebody who they might be aware of, and they know they're struggling, they're having difficulty, and they can come and say, say, Pastor, you need to go out. You know, I've told them that they should become, but they won't. So you need to make some contact to see if you can't reach out. you know, come alongside of them to minister. And I think it's important to understand also that when a man comes into a congregation as a pastor, he is one who has been uh... called by the lord commissioned by the lord and called by the church and then uh... he is installed by those who are already in the office of pastor into that the office either is ordained and then installed or if it's just a transfer of charge and he comes in and he's installed that uh... the guy that comes in new he would be an idiot if he didn't listen to the elders of the church because You have to then, as the pastor, who is a newbie, basically, coming into this congregation, you need to be one who gains the trust of the congregation. Now, these men who have been elected by the congregation... They have it already. Yeah, they already have that. And you need to gain that. So, simply stated that there are going to be things that they're going to tell these elders that they're not going to tell you. Because they don't trust you yet. they need to come to trust you. They've been burned a time or two by men. And so it's very important that you recognize that and you lean heavily upon the understanding of the elders within the community, within the church people. Well, I've got an example of that. I remember a particular place that I served in for like two or three years. particular family, just cold or standoffish, you know, and wonder what is that, you know, why is that? And then over time, all of a sudden you start to see they warm up, they're warming up, and then they start to talk about certain things and you get a sense, oh, and they got burned. Something was said or something was done that kind of set them, you know, their teeth off or something about it. And now you're a reformed minister and this reformed minister did this, can you really trust a reformed minister? And it took time. I realized, okay, this is a different person, wasn't involved in that situation, had nothing to do with it, and therefore we're going to begin to trust them more. But it takes time. It takes a long time to get to know people. It's a long, continuous walk in the same direction. I mean, there's guys who have the principle that you stay in a ministry for five to seven years. And then you leave. I don't know, can you really get to know people? No, I don't think so. It takes time to develop relationships. Long term, you start to develop them. And then as a pastor, you're trying to get to know hundreds of people often. which is for a human being, that's a tough thing to do. But the people are relating to one person, the pastor. You go through things in ministry with people and deep ties are created. And sometimes deeper than you realize as a pastor. You know, but for the people, if you've gone through things, like I can think of certain people where you've buried three people in their family and you've married three people in their family. Those are significant events in people's lives, right? Big events in their lives. Or you've gone through sickness and disease or things like that. There's, you know, it's always surprising when you, as a pastor, you're going to leave, perhaps go to another church. And now, you know, it affects people a certain way and often you can be surprised, wow. I didn't realize that that family or those people had such an emotional attachment to me as their pastor. The depth there sometimes is surprising. It's encouraging, it's exciting, but also it's like, wow. really form over time and that goes back to your point. What's interesting about that though is and I find that that's a two-edged sword because you get to know people real well like that and sometimes it can be a stumbling block for you. Right, because you have to love them but you don't really like them. Oh, wow. What I mean is you get so involved in people's lives and you know so much about them that you know when you come to this text, this is just going to rip this person apart. Yeah. And they're going to think, you aimed that at me. Yeah. They're going to think that you actually have a picture of them up in your home but just inspire at that particular point. Yeah. 14 years in satin, I'll say, now, Bill, I know you're going to take this personally, but I'm not talking about you, even though it's totally applicable to your life. Having said that, no, I don't do that. You know, if you think I'm thinking about you, you're right. He says that from the pulpit before he preaches. Yeah, exactly. I've changed the names specifically for Bill. And he's not here this morning. What am I going to preach on now? Yeah. But yeah, exactly, you know. But that's where you become pastorally sensitive, right? Yeah. To those issues. I mean, I want to be faithful to the Lord and faithful to the text of Scripture. And you know that if you preach this particular text, it's going to open up some wounds. Right. But you cannot shrink back from preaching it. Right, exactly. And you realize, I think, afterwards, there is that fear and trepidation But there ought to be more fear and trepidation for not preaching what the text says, because we ought to have fear of God and not of man. But I think this is where the genius comes in, of preaching expository from the text of Scripture, but preach expositionally, but sequentially. So you're working your way through the books of the Bible. And then when you get to these particular texts, you know that all I'm doing is working through the text. Exactly. And this is how we celebrate God's providence on this particular morning, if we're right here, right now. This is the balm of Gilead right here. Yeah, because it also, the other way it works, where people, well, a situation might, this happened recently, where a situation is going on in the church, it's a very busy week, a lot of counseling that has to be done. And there also needs to be sermon preparation, right? But I tend to try to be two or three weeks ahead so that when they're going to happen, I've got time to do it. Well, then you preach the sermon on the Sunday, and this happened recently where I told the person that, you know, they said, well, how are you going to get prepared for your sermon? I said, oh, don't worry. It's already done. It was done three weeks ago. Therefore, on the Sunday, you preach a sermon, and this person said, I would have swore you prepared that this week just for this particular situation that's taking place. I know you prepared that three weeks ago. Yeah, God's wonder is providence. Yeah, and it applies so specifically Exactly. But those are things, and there's the whole thing. This is what God says in his word. You know, and it doesn't make you feel... Is it uncomfortable? Is it convicting? Yes. That's what the preparation is. I use this example sometimes I tell people. There are times when, you know, during sermon preparation, and it's convicting. And, you know, it's uncomfortable. It's personal. And so I'm looking for the clock to be 12 o'clock. Right? Noon to go home for dinner, because I've had enough this morning. And that's usually at 8.30 or so. But you know, you're hoping the phone will ring and it'll take you away, because it is. And that's one way people say, well, why doesn't this person preach the word? I say, well, it can be personally convicting. It can be really personally examining. They can. So now let's also get back to what we were supposed to be talking about. Deacons now. Deacons. Deacons. What's the role of a Deacon, Daryl? You've been reading from that? Well, I mean, particularly in the context of Article 30 of the Belgian Confession where it talks about that also that the poor and distressed may be relieved and comforted according to their necessities. And a lot of times that's the area where the deacons have, you know, the diaconal aid. They're aware of the physical needs. They also, our Director of Worship talks about, they also have spiritual oversight of the situation. But they specifically take care of those areas where that person might need a little help monthly, you know, to pay the bills. Or maybe some food. You know, those particular areas, they need help, and so they take care of it, as it says, the poor and distressed, relieved and comforted according to their necessities. So deacons, also deacons a lot of times traditionally have the responsibility and oversight of the physical property of a church where they take care of the you know, either the parsonage, if a church has a parsonage where the pastor lives, or the church, the physical building where, you know, there's lights that need to be changed or plumbing that needs to be fixed. And traditionally we view Acts chapter 6 as a place where that begins. Right, exactly. And that was because of the controversy between the widows that were Hebrews and those that were Hellenists. There was a dispute of whether they were all being treated the same. Right, getting the food. And the food and the distribution, the daily distribution. Make sure there was no favoritism in the church where Hebrew women are getting treated better than the Greek women. Yeah, and that sort of stuff happens and it disrupts the body of Christ. Yeah, exactly. And in order to help alleviate those who might be in distress or feeling that they're not treated well and rightly, the deacons need to be people that are full of the Holy Spirit, that need to be self-controlled and accountable. There's a whole list in 1 Timothy 3. Let me read this from our directory of worship. Deacons are appointed to assist and support the pastor and elders in those services which apply to the material needs of the general household of faith. They have the honorable charge of caring for the poor and needy and making certain that the charities of the Church are properly dispensed. They are to aid in securing funds necessary for the support of the Church and its various activities. They are to labor among the people and making known to them the needs of the Church, fostering the principles of stewardship, and in this way cultivating the spirit of liberal and cheerful giving. In discharging these duties, however, they must not lose sight of the fact lose sight of the true spiritual character of their office. For although the office of deacon may often be occupied with outward and temporal things, it nevertheless always remains a proper branch of the Christian ministry, and its purpose in all things can only be the eternal salvation of men in the world to come. It is for this reason that the New Testament so much stress is laid on the character and the life of those who are called to participate in this work. They must be men honest of report, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, who may be able both by word and example to help advance the purpose of the gospel, making their services to the material needs of the poor the occasion and means of a still better benefit to their souls. The Apostle Paul writing on this subject in the first epistle to Timothy expressly requires that the deacons the same virtues which are the qualifications of the office of elder. Which are, let me read it. Go ahead. 1 Timothy chapter 3 beginning at verse 8. Likewise, deacons must be reverent, not double-toned, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested, then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children in their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons attain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." So there's a qualification. And the emphasis there, notice, on elders and deacons as a character. chrysler it's crucial absolutely crucial it's not just an outward duty it's not just an outward kind of uh... job it becomes so life exactly it's it's it's not just what you do it's who you are who you are and that's important to the lord's gifted many people to do this way shows up in their life exactly and this is the way that they can serve but i tell you that You know, sometimes we read Acts 6 and think, oh, well, that's just how it started. But if you've ever been in a church with really good deacons, it really does free you up so that you could do the ministry of the word. Exactly. Because you know the deacons are on top of the other stuff. And the other stuff comes up. Every pastor knows it. Every person who's in the church has been probably a part of something that really had to do with money, had to do with, we don't like the color of the carpet, or the roof leaking, or whatever. And when the pastor has to deal with all those things, That's not true. Let me make this point. I want to make this point, Clare, but think about it. It's been percolating inside of me. All right. When we address a biblical understanding of church government and the role and the responsibilities of pastor, teaching elder, ruling elders, deacons, It's making it clear that the pastor doesn't do everything. And the pastor should not be expected to do everything. And nobody has a right to demand the pastor to do everything. And the pastor shouldn't want to do everything. Yeah, exactly. And he should see the gifting and the use, the body, ministering to the body. That's 1 Corinthians 12. Absolutely. And nobody should be making those demands. And it's not the elder's and deacon's sole responsibility to make sure the pastor does everything. We've talked about it. They have a responsibility to make sure he's doing what God says he's to do But not that he does everything and I and I say that because as a pastor Starting to have some years of experience under my belt you realize many times there are many ways The expectation of the church is that the pastor does everything. We're just here to make sure he does everything. And as a pastor, I realize there are guys with gifting and insight and wisdom and understanding and you look to them and they're kind of the A go-to person, they go, hey, what do you think about this right here? Help me out. Am I missing something? Have I looked at this the right way? And they give you, I remember one particular time, there's a situation, and I said, I think this is what we need to do. And an elder said, no, I think you're wrong. I think this is what you need to do. This is what we need to do. And I said, OK. Turns out, guess what? He was right. I was wrong. What? Did you say that again? I was wrong. You got that on tape? I was. Or as the fauns would say, I was... No, that's the thing. And it's like, thankful for that. Somebody to come in and say, well, wait a second, pastor. And the pastor should be totally approachable that way. Sure. Open to the fact that, yeah, listen. That's a key. Listening. A lot of times everybody thinks that the key role in the ministry is talking. Yeah. Listening. Listening. I often think about it in counseling. In Hagatha Christie, in Hercule Poirot, as a detective, and he says, let people talk. They'll tell you more than they think they're telling you. And you find that in counseling. I always write it at the top of my paper, you know, because I've got a piece of paper, someone comes in for counseling, I'm going to take notes. I'm asking them questions, I want to remember what they say or think, you know, and I always write up in the left-hand corner. First of all, in lowercase, listen, then right underneath that in uppercase, because then it's screaming at me, listen. Listen. And a lot can be gleaned, a lot can be learned in listening. And that's the thing with the pastor. And we see that. We seem to think that it's totally just talking, talking, talking. There's a lot. Listen, listen, listen. And to begin with, if we're going to preach the Word of God, we've got to be listening to it. And this is just a text that I want to point out, which is very common with people, what you were saying. be a listener. And many people will turn to this and it says James 1 verse 19, so then my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear. You see, you have to be a listener. And that is so taken out of context. He also says to be slow to speak and slow to wrath. The whole context in there is regarding the Word of God. Yes, exactly. And so that we need to be as a people swift to hear the preaching and teaching of God's Word. Exactly. Now, do we need to be good listeners? Yes. Yeah, of course. And I just want to make a point that I can't stand that when we go to text and we yank something out of context. Right, exactly. Well, here, give me an example. I'll give you an example of how you yank that out of context. I was talking to a guy one time and his wife was giving him the silent treatment. Things would go on, and that's how she'd punish him. If she was displeased, she'd give him the silent treatment. And I said to him, obviously she's practicing James chapter 1, verse 19, where she's being swift to hear and slow to speak. That's a real bad application of that text, right? I was just saying that tongue-in-cheek, joking, because that's how, and to say, that's how distorted sometimes people, how much they distort the Word of God. There was somebody who said, well, I'm giving him the silent treatment. I'm just being slow to speak. Because he's been naughty. But that's what you do. That's an excellent example, Scott, of how the meaning of the text is the text. It's the text. And if I don't understand the text of Scripture, I don't have the truth. Right, exactly. Because the truth is what it means. Here's another example, right at the very beginning of James, chapter 1, where it talks about if any of you lacks wisdom. Well, the specific wisdom there is to count it all joy. What he has said, if any of you lacks wisdom, this wisdom. It's not just this general statement. No, it could be a point. Wisdom in suffering. Yeah, exactly. Wisdom in suffering, specifically. But a lot of times, you know, you just rip that out. You cherry pick. I call it cherry picking. Exactly. Coffee cup in it. T-shirt. See, I think what we often do... Fridge magnet exegesis, I call it. There you go. You take the verse out and you stick it up there and it's out of context now. You can just make that, say or mean whatever you want it to say or mean. Yeah. This is a day that the Lord has made. We'll rejoice and be glad in it. What? That's a day of salvation. That's not referring to today. That's a day of salvation. It's the day that Christ was the chief cornerstone. He was the one that was a stumbling block. Yeah. It's the day that he went to the cross. But this word comes down to handling accurately the word of God. And people do that a lot of times because that's the very way ministers are handling, you know, this kind of, you know, cliche, quote in scripture, out of context, because it sounds spiritual. And that's what pastors are supposed to say, you know, Oh, well, and then you go to scripture. to listen. That's why God gave you two ears and one mouth. So you can listen twice as much as you speak. I'll take that personally because I only have one ear. I'll tell you why God gave us two ears. So you can hear over both sides of your head. So since this is no longer about Elders and Deacons, we're going to wrap this up and we can have another show completely one day about just verses. Well, it is about Elders and Deacons because we need to listen to one another. Yes, exactly. And we need to speak to one another the word of truth. Right. Don't nod your head like he was doing that. He was just annoyed. Elders and deacons should not be afraid to speak to their minister. They shouldn't feel that they're not equipped to speak to their minister and that their minister can't be questioned. If a minister is communicating that, that I'm the sole authority, there's no way I could ever be wrong, but then he's communicating the wrong spirit. You should be open to instruction, open to rebuke, open to hearing others think, oh, hey, that's good. Let's go that way. And this is what we'll talk about at the next one. You're just going to have to wait about problems that arise from corrupted and bad church government. All right. So join us. You'll be really helping us with that one. And next time on Pilgrim Talk, perhaps it'll just be Daryl and myself as we... Join us next time. See you later.