Hello, this is Pastor Patrick Hines coming to you live from Cincinnati, Ohio. This time I'm supposed to be heading back home to Tennessee tomorrow. My mother is coming back here, but I wanted to go ahead and do a live program. Probably be kind of short today because I've kind of got my hands full here. I'm still trying to get a sermon ready for Sunday. I think I'm just about done now, but today I wanted to do a brief program on Christianian liberalism, Jake Russell Machen and the church. And I listened to an excellent podcast on Reform Forum where John Muther and Danny Olinger came on this program and were interviewed by the host. I don't know much about Reform Forum. I've listened to stuff they've done in the past and it's typically been pretty good. So I think it's a pretty good podcast from what I've heard. But I was just loading up some podcasts because it's a five hour drive from where I live in Tennessee to get here to Cincinnati. And so I had a bunch of podcasts. I brought a couple of my daughters with me and they're in the backseat puttering around. And I brought a big Bluetooth speaker and set it in the passenger seat and was listening to podcasts. And the stuff that they covered in this program, and I've got it linked in the description here, was really, really good and really useful. because it's always encouraging when someone who's really great like Machen, you find that you actually think a lot like they do about something in particular, because I have had so many conversations with ministers in the PCA and other places, other larger reform denominations that are drifting to the left. And there's an argument that is very common that's being used today. And it's very common today, and it's not new. People said the same thing to Machen 100 years ago. And these guys bring this up, and they're talking about it on this program. I wanted to play some clips and offer some of my own commentary. But basically, the argument goes like this. The argument goes like this. As denominations begin to drift left, Ministers, elders stop being Presbyterians, and they adopt a functional independency. And they'll say, look, We have our church. Our church is a good church. We're Orthodox. We don't buy any of this critical race theory. And we're not willing to go into this statement on racial reconciliation. And we don't buy into the side B celibate gay Christianity stuff. We don't buy any of that. I've got my church. I've got my Presbytery. My church is a good church. My Presbytery is a good Presbytery. And Machen points out, pointed out long ago, it's not an option. So Machen points out that, you know, one of the big problems that they were facing in the mainline denomination there is that they, the way he actually puts it is great companies of non-Christian persons have been admitted as members of the church and haven't been admitted to teaching offices in the church. And Machen says that We cannot adopt a functional independency. We can't do that. And what he means by that is you cannot adopt the mentality. Well, I've got my church and I've got my presbytery. My church is orthodox. My presbytery is good, solid, and we don't go along with this other stuff. Machen points out that is not an option. because that is an abandonment of being Presbyterian. And he calls that a failed corporate witness. That is our corporate witness. That's why I could tell long ago when I used to sit in Presbyterian meetings in the PCA, I used to kind of do a 360 swivel on my head, like stuff was being said. And I'm like looking around going, am I the only person in here that thinks like this? I think I might be. because really good guys think like that. Guys that are a lot older than me will look you square in the eye and say, look, I've got my church, I've got my presbytery. I don't worry about what's going on in the General Assembly. As long as they don't require us to give them money to promote this bad stuff, we'll just hang out because I've got my church and I have my presbytery. Machen faced the exact same argument. And he points out that is a failure to understand what presbyterian polity is all about. You can't do that. You can't go into a denomination or stay in a denomination when you know entire presbyteries and entire swaths of that denomination are going progressive, are tolerating so-called gay celibate Christianity, are tolerating critical race theory, are tolerating the ordination of women to the office of deacon and things like that. You can't have the mentality that I've got my church, I've got my presbytery, and therefore, because we would never do any of that stuff, we're good. And most churches are, you get this argument too, most PCA churches and most of these churches are rural anyway, and they don't really even keep in touch with the rest of the denomination. They don't really even talk about what's going on. They just kind of have their church and their presbytery. But that's not an option if you are a Presbyterian. You can't deny the fact that you're part of a larger corporate witness to the world. And if the rest of the church is going haywire, you can't hide behind your church and your presbytery. And I want to tell you, I have had many conversations with guys that I used to be in the PCA with who say that exact thing. And I actually, I didn't realize that Machen brings that up. He said, here's an option that people are talking about. Here's one thing that they're saying. Well, our church doesn't go along with the critical race theory. Our church doesn't go along with the LGBT stuff. Our church is strong on creation. We don't tolerate 15 views on creation and millions of years on. We are solid on all stuff. Our church is good and our Presbytery is solid and therefore we're just going to hang around because we have a good church and a good Presbytery. That's not biblical Presbyterianism. Machen calls that functional independency. Remember there's three basic types of church government no matter what church you're in it holds to one of these three. There's either Independence II which is kind of like most Baptist churches are independent They don't having there's no ecclesiastical authority outside of the session of that church if they even have a session but the ones that practice biblical church government at least to some degree will have a plurality of elders and So there's independency, or congregational, those are the same thing. Then there's prelacy, or rule by bishops, which is what you have in the Methodist Church, in the Church of England, Roman Romanism, which is not a Christian church, but they practice prelacy. And then there's what the Bible teaches, Presbytery. where you have the session of the local church, the elders of the local church, and then there's the regional church. For my part, I am a member of New Covenant Presbytery. I'm not a member of Myrtle Heights Presbyterian Church. I am a member of the Presbytery of the regional church. And I think that's what scripture is talking about when it speaks about the church in Jerusalem. Remember, there were thousands of Christians in Jerusalem after Pentecost, and they didn't all go to the same building or the same synagogue. They would have been scattered about in a bunch of different smaller local churches. But the church in Jerusalem would be the regional church or the presbytery. And I think you see that throughout the rest of scripture. But I wish you all could hear the clips I wanted to play. As I said, I tested the audio, and it did pick it up when I picked it up nice and clear. But apparently, when you're going live, you can't hear it. But I linked to it there in the chat. In fact, let me see if it's over here in the chat. There's Susan. Hey, Susan. Susan's got a notepad and a pencil, it looks like. That's cool. There's Paul Garvey from England. Man, what time is it in England right now? Yeah, and cat 444 and there's Daisy. Hey Daisy and That's it. Okay. Um, thank you all for being over there. But let me just make a few more comments about those Machen was a true churchman at heart and he understood the value of the corporate witness of your denomination Now when we were still in the PCA, there were actually people that came to me and told me they were embarrassed to be in the PCA and it's because they were thinking like true Presbyterians and They were thinking like true Presbyterians, because at that point, the denomination was allowing for openly homosexual pastors. It still was. You can still say that. And even though they've overtured the BCO and got an amendment to it or something, but that amendment never needed to be added in the first place. You already had everything you needed to get rid of people that say they're homosexuals. And they didn't. They didn't. One of them voluntarily left, but I know there's a lot more that are still in there that are still making those claims. And the notion that our church, we would never do it. And the presbytery, our presbytery is good. Our presbytery is solid. We would never allow this kind of thing. But yeah, we realize the General Assembly is doing stuff. We're gonna hang around unless they try to force us to do bad stuff. But you see, the thing is, the further left a denomination drifts, It will begin to give birth to stuff that is against orthodoxy, that is actively campaigning against it. And that's what happened in the mainline denomination. That's why Machen, although he did fight the good fight there, he eventually had to leave and he had to form the OPC. And I do know from the stuff that I've read about his life that he was very disappointed at how few churches left with him. And the thing is, the mainline denomination, the PCUSA at that particular point had gone liberal. I mean, if you're willing to be part of a denomination that says it's okay to deny the virgin birth of Christ, to deny the substitutionary atonement, to deny the essential truths that make us Christians by believing them, then in what sense is this even a church? Why would you want to stay, is my question. But as I said, when I was in the PCA a few years ago, I was in the PCA for eight or nine years, I think it was. And I could tell I was one of the very few people in the room at Presbyterian meetings that thought like this. But I thought a lot about the fact that there's a corporate witness that we're tolerating that is not tolerable. And it is not okay for us to be in subjection to these brothers. That's one thing that is also left out. I've talked to fellow ministers in the PCA about this long ago, and actually recently talked to one about it. When you take your ordination vows, you take it, you promise, God, do you promise to be in subjection to your brethren? You say yes to that, you're swearing an oath before Almighty God. And I said to this brother, I said, do you not realize that you are in subjection to men who promote sodomy, who are saying that men should embrace this as their identity? You are now part of a church court that embraces this. And he said, no, no, no, we're not in subjection. I said, yes, you are. Yes, you are. You took a vow. Do you promise subjection to your brethren? You said yes. If you didn't say yes, you wouldn't be a part of a presbytery. And so Machen understood the seriousness of these doctrinal defections. It's when these defections start happening, they need to be dealt with. And they need to be dealt with quickly. That's one thing, it's a running joke in Presbyterian circles. And I used to chuckle when I used to sit at Presbyterian meetings and hear this joke. Ah, Presbyterians take forever to do anything. They just take forever to do anything. And I was thinking about how unbiblical that is. Listen to the Apostle Paul when he was faced with very serious error. a very serious error that was related to the gospel. And I would say if you get sin wrong, if you don't even know what sin is, that is a gospel error because now you don't even know what people need to repent of. But listen to the way Paul described it. See if Paul, if Paul was sitting at a meeting and people started joking about how, yeah, it takes us years to get anything done. I wonder if he would have chuckled at that. Listen to what he says here. in Galatia, to the churches in Galatia when he wrote Galatians, and their errors were destroying the gospel. He said, this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty, which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage, to whom we did not yield subjection even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. And he says later in the book, A little lovin' lovin's the whole lump. And I wanna say, yeah, a little lovin' will lovin' the whole lump, especially if you let it sit there lovin' the lump for eight years. Yeah, it's gonna lovin' everything. And it's gonna desensitize everybody to everything. When people defect from the faith, if the courts of the church will not discipline them or deal with them, and every single person involved in the Revoice conference should have been brought up on charges and defrocked like that. They should have been stripped of their ministerial credentials. And that's the end of it. And it should have been a slam dunk. It should have been easy. The conference was an atrocity. Nate Collins and Greg Johnson and all those speakers are advocates of a different religion than me. Whatever it is that they're pushing and promoting, it ain't Christianity, and it's not what the Bible says. And the utter disrespect to the text of scripture that went on in that conference, it's all coming back to me now. I helped write our presbytery report that nobody read on that issue, but the massacre, the total disrespect of scripture that happened was absolutely appalling. And they just embraced it. They just embraced hook, line, and sinker. Homosexuality is a real thing. People are just, you know, that's just the way they are. There's no possible way of repenting of it. And you just have to embrace it and embrace a single celibate life. I'm like thinking, that's a death sentence. That's a death sentence. I pointed out in a sermon, someone actually got upset at me for saying this, but I said, look, if someone is telling you they're gay, the first thing you need to do is tell them, no, you're not. Stop saying that. You're lying. You're lying. Well, but adopting, owning the sin is the first step to overcoming it. No, it's not. No, it isn't. Paul said in Romans 6, 11, reckon yourselves, conceive of yourselves to be dead to sin. Not dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ. Not gay in Christ, or a thief in Christ, or an adulterer in Christ, or an alcoholic in Christ, or a porn addict in Christ, or any sin in Christ. A thief in Christ. Dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ. And I pointed out, even if someone is saying that they are a homosexual, if they're a professing Christian, if they don't have the gift, that special gift that's spoken of in 1 Corinthians 7 of lifelong celibacy, they should get married. And someone said, why would you tell a homosexual to get married? I said, you're not listening to me. Listen, there's no such thing as a homosexual. The first thing someone needs to recognize, R.C. Sproul, you know, pointed this out to people that would come to him, is saying that they were gay. He would tell them, no, you're not. God has equipped you to be a man. God has equipped you to be a woman. You can act what God has asked you to be, what God has equipped you to be. You know, I've had a couple guys come to me now, too. I've come to me telling me they have ongoing struggles with same-sex attraction at times, and I've let them know, you are not gay. There's no such thing. You crucify that desire just like any other sin in your life. It's unnatural. It's a violation of God's law. It's a violation of the created order itself. And you need to follow the Lord and obey him. And both of these men, and it almost brought tears to my eyes. It still almost does when I think about it. They both said, thank you for helping me understand there's no such thing as being gay. And I realized I'm not now, and that I've been deceived. And they both asked me to pray that God would bring them a godly wife. I just thought, isn't that encouraging? One thing, one of the last speeches I ever made in the PCA when I was at the Presbytery, And I know this angered some guys, but I felt it needed to be said. I said, the God that is being presented by these speakers at Revoice is not the God that we worship. Because for some reason, he's not able to liberate people from this sin. Or we can liberate them from anything else except this. I said, that's not the God we worship. This sin has no special status. It has no special power over any other sin. And people were liberated from it in Corinth, just like every other sin. You know, 1 Corinthians 6, 9-11, great passage. Such were some of you, fornicators, adulterers, sodomites. I mean, he mentions both arsonic koitai and the active and passive partner and the homosexual. He mentions them both, along with drunkards and everything else, just pointing out these are the sins that you used to live in. These are the sins that used to define your existence, but they don't now. Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were justified, you were cleansed by the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of our God. And so if you're going to allow people to get away with that in the courts of the church, their sessions, their whole presbyteries won't discipline them for such obvious sins against their ordination vows, against scripture, against our confession, against the book of George, if they won't deal with them, then I have to ask the question, what good is the denomination of them? You know, I used to think if the PCA was going to go wacko, It would be over some kind of very subtly worded false gospel like federal vision stuff. Federal vision intermingled with new perspectives on Paul and you'd have defenders trying to find ways of massaging language to make it sound orthodox and others that would massage it even more to make it sound like it's okay. But I used to think, okay, it'll be something like that that'll destroy the denomination. But if you stood up and told the whole world you're gay, that you would definitely be dealt with. It's like, no, you can do that, too. You can do that, too, as happened, as happened in the PCA. And I've played Greg Johnson's speeches out there. I'll link to it. You can watch the left if the Internet will work here. I will try to find this here. There's YouTube. OK. And I would encourage you to watch this, watch this speech, because I can't play it for you. I actually did a whole podcast on the worst of the PCA General Assembly from 2018. But I know PCA ministers who are good guys told me that after the speech, they got up and left the room and have never looked back. They left the denomination after hearing the speech. So I'm posting it. I just found it here. Please, please listen to that at some point. It's only, uh, I think it's five minutes long. Yeah, it's five minutes long. Please go listen to it. And you need to, you need to know that guy was charged with nothing. He got away with everything. He said all of his argumentation. And in fact, he was applauded for that speech. The Machen knew. that people were arguing, as they argue today, look, my church is good. We're not like that. My Presbyterian is solid. We would never tolerate that. Mason points out that's not an option. That is not an option if you're a Presbyterian. That is a functional independency, and we can't do that. We absolutely cannot do that. Because to do that, Mason said, is to bear false witness. It's a false corporate witness. If we know that there is serious false teaching going on somewhere in our denomination, we've got to deal with it. And the thing is, a zillion presbyteries did that and tried to submit overtures. We submitted an overture to investigate and to deal with this plain and obvious defection from the faith that's been going on. I mean, at the Revoice Conference, they had three Roman Catholic speakers there. One of them was a monk. One, a monk. And I'm thinking, OK, you had a monk from the Catholic Church. You also had a woman who identified as a lesbian Roman Catholic woman spoke at your conference and was put up there in front of God's people as an adequate spokesperson for the cause of Christ. And they were found guilty of nothing, nothing. They made some errors in judgment, but are they really guilty of anything? Do they betray the gospel? Their presbytery said no. And the SJC of the PCA upheld their They're ruling. They're fine. So I'm wondering what in the world do you have to do in the PCA to get in trouble? What do you have to do? Stand up and denounce all this stuff. I bet you'd get in trouble if you did that. It's absolutely unbelievable to me, but I just want to address my brother. And I hope that some of my PCA brethren that I know, listen in to some of these. We'll hear my heart here. You cannot hide behind your church and your presbytery just because you guys are orthodox and would never, never do this or promote it. And you think your presbytery, we would never do this or do that. There is a corporate witness of the denomination. You can't tolerate it. There's a corporate witness and it's a false witness against God. Okay. Let me see. Yeah, it must've been good. Cause you were cracking out. It is good. I am so disappointed. You can't hear that. Maybe if I played it on my phone. Um, I think, okay, I'm going to try. Let me see if this will work. And I need you all to listen in here and see if you can hear this. Sorry, this is really off the cuff. I really, really was hoping you would get to hear this. Where is it? Where is it? See all, I need to see all the episodes of this. No, it's the one on Christianity and liberalism and the church. Ha, there it is. Yes, this one. Let me see if I can. I like the piano music they've got here. Okay, let's talk. You all tell me if you can hear this, please. 159 along those lines, you know, Machen explains that at least in his estimation, the contemporary church had become compromised by admitting, and I quote him, great companies of non-Christian persons, not only into her membership, but into her teaching agencies, end quote. And then he kind of expands on that at least for the next Did you hear that? Machen said, in 1923, in 1923, he says, well, the church has made an error in allowing great companies of non-Christian persons into its membership and its teaching agencies. Now, listen what he goes on to say. Seven pages in various ways, talking about how to resolve it, talking about the future, and really, I guess, hoping that the liberals would just leave, kind of form their own church. At least we've talked in previous chapters but they're not going to do that. You have to bring charges against them and get them out. And if you can't charge someone, if you can't charge someone with the most obvious false doctrines, then what good is your presbytery? What good is your denomination then, if you can't do that? About how the Unitarians, who you don't agree with at all, at least they had the Presbyterian Church, but truly this isn't an exaggeration. I mean, we have all sorts of really non-Christian thought. Jesus isn't the only savior or the only, you know, it's a vast inclusivism that is at work in the PCA. And the moderates, maybe they don't personally believe all of those things, but they're more than willing to tolerate them for other reasons. And that's the problem. That's what we learn in scripture we're not supposed to do. We're not supposed to tolerate that stuff. You've got to go after it and get rid of it. Because a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Right. In fact, Nietzsche in this chapter anticipates another option for moderates. Listen. Some, he said, might gravitate towards a functional independence. My church is orthodox. My presbytery is sound. I have heard so many good guys say that. Now listen to what they say. Machen understood. That's not an option. And these guys here understand that's not an option. Listen. Now, um, I can't, I can't, um, but think that he has the likes of Clarence McCartney in view here, but this is not a Presbyterian option. I was kind of the way my church was growing up. I grew up in the mainline As far as PC USA's goes very conservative I imagine a lot of CRC people have this similar experience at least back in the 70s and 80s Where it was a rural church? But this you know this again. I have heard this so many times. It's just I Most of the churches are rural, there are little churches out in the countryside, they're conservative, they're fine, and it's okay that the General Assembly's doing all this wacko stuff. No, it's not, and it's not an option to stay. Other than the fact that they're egalitarian, that they're Calvinists, a five-point Calvinist pastor held to the inerrancy of scripture, but functionally independent, because they just said, well, you know, as long as they're Presbyterian, the denomination doesn't make us against the Bible, then we'll hang around. We'll just, we just won't send our money to them. And so it's- I have heard this so many times. A hundred years ago, people were saying the same thing. And Machen's telling them, it's not an option guys. You can't do this. I said the same thing to my brother. That's not an option. In that sense, you've really ceased to be Presbyterian. That's right. And that's just, you know, as you indicated, not an option for Machen. It's not. And of course, Eventually, the denomination will make them do things against their conscience. The conscience clause always has an expiration date. That church, for anyone that cares, is the church where I grew up. They joined the EPC in the early 2010s or thereabouts. Okay, you got to get this you hear this stuff about corporate witness listen to this this is a church The all the officers of the church are responsible for the teaching from all the pulpits. Um, and, uh, he writes, no, you hear that all the teachers in the church are responsible for all the teaching from all the pulpits. You cannot say I got my church, I got my Presbyterian. We're good. You can't do that. I'm going to back up just a little bit here. Listen to that again. It's the corporate witness of the church. Um, The, um, all the offices of the church are responsible for the teaching from all the pulpits, all of them. He writes, no individual is walking upright according to the truth of the gospel. If he acquiesce in a corporate witness, that is false. And that's why I left. And that's why I told the elders long ago, when we left the PCA, I said, guys, I can't stay here. I will not be part of a false corporate witness like this. I will not do it. Year after year after year, these guys are still there. Oh, we would never promote any of this stuff. Oh, we would never do it. You are part of a false corporate witness. Listen to that again. from all the pulpits. And he writes, no individual is walking upright according to the truth of the gospel. If he acquiesce in a corporate witness, that is false. And so you can't hide behind your congregation or your presbytery. What were other voices saying at the time? As I was driving here, I was like yelling amen and my little girls in the back are like, Dad, what are you doing? That is so right on the money. No one is walking upright in accordance with the truth of the gospel if they acquiesce in a corporate witness that is false. So if you're in a denomination that lets pastors tell the whole world they're sodomites, and you think, I've got my church, I've got my president, you can't hide behind your church and your presbytery. You can't hide behind your congregation and your presbytery. You either go after it and get it out or you get out. Okay, well, I've got other stuff I need to do. I need to check on my dad, make sure he's doing okay. He had kidney dialysis yesterday, but my mother's coming back from Alabama and her 100 year old mother is still alive. They all went down there because they thought for sure she was gonna go on to glory, but she hasn't. So my mother's coming back here when she gets back. I'm leaving to go back to Cincinnati tomorrow, but I Wanted us to be about a half hour. So the hope that was good, but please that that link I think yeah, I did put it in the description. So go listen to that whole program I know it's kind of linked but reform form does really good work the podcasts I have listened to by reform form are really good and But that one, Christianity and liberalism in the church, was like, wow, it was so good. And so much of what they said was stuff that I tried to convey to my brethren, much to no avail. But anyway, okay, let me see who else is here real quick. There's Oscar Fabi, Ecclesiastes is this wonderful book of the Bible. Yes, indeed it is That fire portrait in the back is a huge statement because you because your videos have been as the teens Say now the day is fire. Yeah. Okay, maybe I should get see if my parents will let me I have no recollection of that They just moved into this nice condo here. I and I recognize everything on the walls in the house except that I don't know where they got that or when they got it, but that's a cool picture. I like it It's good. It's good background Actually, I never thought about applying that verse to the speed of the presbytery before. Yeah, Cafe Queen, it needs to be applied to the speed of presbyteries in dealing with false doctrine because you can't take years and years and years to deal with it. Paul says, as soon as we heard the false gospel, we didn't yield subjection to them even for an hour, not one hour, let alone years and years. Thank you pastor for telling the truth. Amen. We are dead to sin live in Christ Jesus I will tell people this I have to repent stop compromising people. There's not such a thing as gay. That's right R.C. Sproul said it so well way back as part of the 70s or 80s He said the first thing we have to get across is a direct quotation the first thing we have to get across to people is that Intrinsically, inherently, biologically, there is no such thing as a homosexual. I'll say it again. Intrinsically, inherently, biologically, there is no such thing as a homosexual. Homosexual describes behavior and desires, not a state of being. No more than adulterer describes a state of being or a thief. If you say someone is an adulterer or a thief or homosexual, you're describing patterns of behavior, not something about their ontology or their being. But that's the way the term's been co-opted for a number of decades. Sadly, the Christian church by and large, including the Reformed church, has allowed the world to define the terms of the debate instead of scripture. And that's why we're losing that debate. In the 1970s, workers of iniquity changed the term homosexual to gay. That's right, they stole the word gay. Did you know that AIDS used to be called GRIDS? Gay Related Immunodeficiency Syndrome. GRIDS. And then it was changed to Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome. That was on purpose as well. Most denominations are going the way of the world. Yep, they are. You can hear you can hear you we can hear yeah, I was glad to see that I'm glad that that came through Hopefully it was it was clear Okay, here's the reason Well, what's the reason? What is the reason is it because is it what I'm saying? Is that what you're saying? Okay, Peter Griffin. Keep up the good work you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your encouragement That's where our church left the Church of England good Yeah, the Church of England is is a is a cesspool of iniquity and there's Wesley putting them He's been on here before that's good to see you again, sir Alrighty. I need to go check on, on my father. Uh, but thank you all for being here. And, uh, I've persevered, um, have been able to get podcasts out every day. I did two yesterday cause I missed Tuesday evening, but I think they're all on schedule. They're all out there. So. Love you all. Thanks for being here. Oh, there's Colin. Colin, I see you, brother. I'm supposed to see you this weekend. Actually, you're coming into town. So I will see you and Sarah Grace and looking forward to that. So I love you all. Have a good rest of your day and thank you all for watching or for listening.