Welcome to Marscast, the official podcast of Mid-America Reform Seminary, where faculty and friends explore the depths of faith, unpack biblical truth, and engage with the critical issues of our time. I'm Jared Luchaboard, Director of Marketing. Thank you for tuning in. You're listening to part three of our series with Dr. Marcus Minninger on his new book, Impossible to be Restored? Temptation and Warning in the Epistle of Hebrews. In our first episode, we got to know Dr. Minninger a little bit more as a professor and scholar and author. In our second, we examined the epistle of Hebrews itself, its mysterious character, its warning passages, and especially that difficult claim in Hebrews 6 that it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have fallen away. Today we're going to land the plane. If the temptation facing the original audience of Hebrews was historically unique, then how can the warnings still matter for us today? What do these passages say to believers who struggle with assurance or who fear they may have sinned beyond forgiveness? And how can pastors preach Hebrews faithfully in a way that encourages rather than paralyzes their congregations? Dr. Menninger, you seem to argue in your book that the precise temptation the audience of Hebrews faced, trying to return to the old covenant once they had already entered the new, is not something that Christians today can literally replicate. And yet, the Holy Spirit has preserved Hebrews for the church, and its warnings are still living. So, if people today cannot face the exact same temptation as the original audience, how can the warnings in Hebrews still be applicable? Yeah, of course, it's a very important question. One thing is just to point out that these are the sorts of questions we face with many biblical books, most of them. For example, when we look at Old Testament books, it would be quite clear if they're describing the cultic requirements of the Levitical law or something. We don't follow those directly today. We're not still offering sacrifices and so forth. So then the question of how does it apply and we have to understand the application somewhat more indirectly based on changes of circumstances in the flow of redemptive history. Something similar is true here as well regarding the nature of this temptation. I spent some time in the last chapter of the book in particular exploring relevance of the warnings to the original audience and then relevance to our own audiences today. While it's not the most common thing in our own circles, there are people today who have sort of a Hebrew roots, you know, emphasis or black Hebrew Israelites or various versions of theology that really seek to revitalize certain aspects of the Old Covenant or see its rootage there in a particular way. So there could be, you know, somewhat more direct applicability there. But beyond that, what I've tried to explain in the book, and do so at a little bit more length than we can do here, but is that there's a huge, from the greater to the lesser argument, or application by way of analogy, the argument in Hebrews, as I've sought to explain it, is that Even the old covenant, which was gracious and good and given by God, a part of his own revelation to his people, is not something that can operate for a person apart from or as a replacement to Christ. They can't go back to it as an alternative to their Christian profession. It's not meant to operate that way. And so in that sense, it's literally impossible to be restored to it and still be in good standing. If that's true, then what else could we possibly construct instead? as an appropriate or successful alternative to Christ or add on to Christ as something that we need additionally. In other words, we might be tempted by other worldviews, the worldview of materialism or of hedonism or naturalism or whatever. or other things in general in God's creation, other good things that can still become an alternative source of confidence or happiness or blessing in our minds other than Christ. We can be drawn away by many things. The temptations may not be the same, but they function in an essentially similar way as saying maybe this is sufficient or better instead. And sometimes it's specifically the goodness of those other things, the God-created goodness of those other things that's what draws us. It's improper to be tempted by them, but that's not because there's nothing good that God made in it. So we talk about food or money or sex or ethnicity or political position or think in a different mode about human reason or the dictates of science or humanitarian efforts, philosophy, philanthropy, psychology, self-care, self-actualization. We can go in a lot of different directions, but in as much as any of those things, comes to present itself as a source of confidence or happiness or blessing as an alternative to Christ, then we too are being tempted to apostatize. And then the warning applies all the more. Because again, if the Old Covenant, as good and gracious as it was, isn't a proper, viable replacement for Christ, what else possibly could be? Yeah, thank you for that. Now, many Christians read Hebrews 6 or 10 and are terrified. They worry and ask themselves the question, have I committed the unforgivable sin? Have I fallen away beyond repentance? And so some believers are paralyzed by a kind of fear when they encounter texts like this. And yet your interpretation suggests the opposite, that Hebrews is actually meant to encourage perseverance, not produce despair. So in what ways are the warning passages meant to be pastorally encouraging rather than spiritually paralyzing? Yeah, I mean, I think we need to take the warnings with full seriousness in the sense that they're not mere hypothetical statements. People, as Jesus shows us in Mark chapter 4, the parable of the sower, there are people who make a beginning of the Christian faith or a beginning of spiritual response to the Word of God and don't continue and don't persevere. And so thorns and thistles choke it out and so forth. We don't need to be dismissive of temptation or of the strength of temptation. That would not be a good way to respond. So we need to hear the warnings. with a sobriety and seriousness, but we need to understand that the warnings are not intended to create a paralyzed introspection in us. They are intended instead to do what the book of Hebrews also constantly is telling us, to look unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high, consider him, is what the author continues to say. And the book goes to great lengths to describe Jesus not only as prophet and king, but especially as priest, that he took on himself our humanity, that he endured and experienced our weakness, that he sympathetically mediates for us before the Father, that he has provided a once and for all and completely sufficient sacrifice for sins. And so the real message is, You have what you need in Jesus Christ. Look to him and be strengthened to continue and to not give up, to not go faint, to not be weak-hearted, etc., to not be defiled by a bitterness or a sexual immorality of Esau in Hebrews 12 or other things. So yes, there's a real warning, but the warning is essentially paired with the continued exhortation to cling to Christ now and always. And in that sense, it is intended to produce a very positive outcome. Sure. And now, when we step back from the individual passages and look at Hebrews as a whole, as you've indicated, Christ is the superior priest. He's the better sacrifice, the mediator of a new covenant, the one who brings us to the heavenly city. Given all your study, it might be good for our listeners to hear you sum up the forest as well as the trees, so to speak. So what view of the overall context of Hebrews do you think makes the most sense, especially in light of your argument about temptation and warning? Yeah, I think there's a lot here that we can't be dogmatic about. And so it's important to hold conclusions loosely when that's what the evidence points towards being appropriate. But I also don't think we need to have complete certainty about some of these things. From the evidence we have, it seems to me like the most plausible scenario is, well, let me say this. From the evidence that we have in Hebrews, shows clearly that the audience had experienced persecution before in 10, 32 and following. It strongly implies that they are fearful of experiencing it again in a new and revitalized way. And chapter 12, 4 also probably suggests, I mean, I think it's fair to interpret it as saying that nobody in their community had yet been martyred or killed for the faith. And so if you look at scenarios in Italy, because the audience seems to be in Italy, that's what chapter 13 suggests, where might this be where Christians had experienced some initial persecution, but now things are potentially being strengthened and worsened? And especially in a way, strengthened and worsened in a way that has now become specific to their Christianity, such that retreating to the Old Covenant and assimilating into the broader non-Christian Jewish context might provide greater safety. What makes the most sense to me is to put them sometime after 49 AD when Claudius had given an edict that expelled all Jews, including Jewish Christians, from Rome in sort of this one big lump. showing that at that time in 49, Claudius didn't really know the difference between Jews and Christians. Sometime between that and 64 AD when Nero famously persecuted the Christians and killed many of them in Rome. So maybe the mid to late 50s and as there came to be a growing recognition that the Christian movement was different than, distinct from the non-Christian Jewish movement, which again Rome didn't really understand early on. Then the stakes become raised for the Christians themselves, what's specific to their new covenant profession of faith in Jesus. is the particular liability they face in the eyes of Rome, the more that that continues, greater visibility means greater threat. So I feel like that's the most likely scenario for why this particular temptation, right? If we go back to the Old Covenant alone, won't that provide us less visibility and more safety? Let's move into some more of the practical and pastoral guidance for believers and even pastors today. How should pastors approach Hebrews in light of your interpretation? What does their faithful preaching and reading of Hebrews look like? Well, that's a broad question. I mean, there's lots and lots of things that could be said about that. And of course, how to faithfully preach and teach partly involves questions about your own audience that you preach to, what they do understand, what they don't, what kinds of things they face. And so it's really something that you have to sort of particularize to individual situations and congregations and so forth. But a few broader things, you know, I think one is to say that I hope that the book will enable people to approach the book of Hebrews. The arguments in the book are about two main topics, but those topics are at the center of the book. And so to understand them better, hopefully will give pastors more confidence in preaching the book as a whole, more clarity in the way they define the issues involved, and so more effectiveness, both of exposition and application. The warnings passages might really keep some passers away from wanting to preach the book or the detailed covenant theology is really thick. But I think my book hopefully clarifies the temptation and then central warnings but also shows how all that connects into the covenant theology to make one sort of unified package that has as well a sort of simplicity to it. There's both a lot of details and yet there is sort of a clearer forest within which the trees exist too. So, you know, I hope that My book would help them interpret and preach from Hebrews in a way that steers away from introspection, speculation, this sort of shadow of, is there some sin, some special sin that you can never turn back from and be forgiven by Christ? The answer to that is no, there's not, as the New Testament describes it. The unforgivable sin, and of course you can go into other passages in the Gospels and in 1 John and so forth, but Hebrews has really been at the forefront of the claim that there is an impossibility of returning, sort of that docetist, not docetist, Donatist controversy and its equivalents. But most of all, in addition to sort of settling some of the nerves about those kinds of things, the message of the book and the message of what I say in my book about Hebrews is really to exalt the complete, fulsome, adequacy, sufficiency of Jesus Christ, and therefore help us continue with a robust pilgrim faith going forward, even in the midst of difficulty and adversity. Now, I wouldn't mind if you closed this conversation with some additional pastoral guidance here. Some of our listeners may be pastors, but others are ordinary believers who wrestle with fear and with doubt. Maybe they've read Hebrews 6 and have had some very complex questions. What would you say directly to a believer who fears that they may have fallen away beyond hope? Yeah, well, this is not at all just theoretical. I mean, I've had conversations like that and since the content of the book has been out in prior podcasts, we did one on Marscast earlier, it kind of went into more depth on some of the Hebrew 6 questions and other online avenues and so forth, people sometimes reach out and ask. And I think that a lot of times what's needed is more clarity with regard to is there a special distinct kind of apostasy or a special sin, so to speak, or a special hardening that comes about from certain types of sins that means that even if you want to return to Christ, you can't because you committed that sin, right? Hebrews is really central to those debates about the New Testament. And I go through the special apostasy interpretation in the book and the special hardening interpretations, as I call them, and show that they aren't correct and they don't adequately explain what the text says. Really, what this book says and other books is that the unforgivable sin is giving a final rejection to Jesus Christ as Savior. If you, like Peter, the Apostle Peter, deny Jesus Christ, even publicly and shamefully, of course, it's certainly shameful, and yet then return in repentance and cast yourself upon the mercy and forgiveness of Christ, the Christ who restored Peter can and will restore you as you come in faith and repentance. And so I think it's very important for people to understand that. Receiving and resting upon Christ is also something that we should all be doing every day. Continuing to profess His name as our sole reason for confidence before the Lord and hope of eternal life. And so sometimes people get in a spin cycle where it's like, well, I don't know if I did, you know, committed the exact wrong kind of apostasy. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, whatever that means. And I've argued again, that's not really a category. Or, I don't know if I believed before. What if I don't believe right now? Or what if I don't believe sincerely enough? The posture and regular experience of every Christian ought to be repentance, faith, and resting in Christ, and then seeking new obedience in him. In other words, Stop focusing on your doubts and instead focus on Jesus, who he is, what he's done, his perfections, the amazing nature of what he purposed to do and did do, and the overwhelming testimony that is to a perfect love and an abundant grace. Read Scripture again and again. The Apostle Paul, who describes himself as the chief of sinners, also says that where sin has abounded, and of course he catalogs innumerable ways in which it's abounded, he says grace has super abounded. And so grace is greater than all of our sin as we receive and rest upon Christ. So if you have questions about your past, bring those to Christ and rest in him now. and tomorrow and so forth. I think I would encourage people also not to do this alone because we can become very sort of tied up in knots ourselves when we become introspective and begin to define, like question all sorts of things about ourselves and even in ways that don't really make great sense to question. We need other brothers and sisters in Christ. We need the church as an entity and its public ministry and its elders. and talk to those people in particular, but don't just sit and struggle alone. Don't let comparisons to other people and the way you may or may not in your own mind come out unfavorably in those comparisons keep you from reaching out. Sometimes people get very despairing and I look at their lives and if I know them well and say, brother, sister, I see all kinds of fruit in your life. You should—you should—you need to hear this. You should be encouraged by this and that and the other thing, right? And you're a professing member in the church and you need to, you know, remember that that—take that with full seriousness that you've been— The elders and pastors of this church have heard your profession and we see your walk. Are you sinful? Yes, but salvation has only four sinners, right? And so don't just walk alone. Reach out to mature Christians and be a part of the life and the service of a local Christian church. That's a fitting place to end our series. I want to thank Dr. Minninger for joining us, and I want to commend his book, Impossible to be Restored, Temptation and Warning in the Epistle of Hebrews. You can find the book at MidAmerica's online bookstore, the link you'll find in the show notes. It's a work of rigorous scholarship, yes, but it's also a resource for the church in helping us hear Hebrews on its own terms and reminding us of the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ in the new covenant. In our next set of conversations, I'll be joined by Dr. J. Mark Beach to take a closer look at some of the doctrines of grace. We'll begin by tackling the extent of the atonement, then move on to irresistible grace and effectual calling, and finally consider the doctrines of perseverance and assurance. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend or colleague who might find it helpful or interesting. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, consider leaving a rating or review. I'm Jared Luchabore. This has been another episode of Marscast. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time.