All right, so we're looking at the attributes of God, going through a acronym that is attempting to kind of, it's a mnemonic device to help you remember each of the incommunicable attributes, Sergei Louis. Now, what does incommunicable mean? Big fancy word. Okay, yeah, incommunicable disease, it doesn't transfer, right? So communicable attributes, incommunicable attributes, incommunicable means it doesn't transfer. Although what I wanna start to see as we look through this, and I didn't really do a great job highlighting this with sovereignty and righteousness, but even though they're incommunicable attributes, I will still say that they do communicate on some level, but it's a, Finite level so capital Q is infinite. This is God's attribute of sovereignty righteousness justice love etc Lowercase Q is man sovereign To some degree, yeah, we were given dominion, but it's not on an infinite level, right? God has given us certain realms of sovereignty. Like if you're a man, for example, you are sovereign to an extent over your house. The marriage unit is sovereign over the household. And human government has certain sovereignty aspects attached to it. But again, it's lowercase q, finite, not infinite. And what that communicates, no pun intended, to me, is that we're made in God's image. So wouldn't there be similar demonstrations of these qualities in us because we're made in God's image? Now again, similarity doesn't mean sameness, right? So there is distinction there. We're creature, God is creator. And we have to keep that in mind. So we're working through Sir J. Louie, and we're on J. What does J stand for? Just. Now what does justice mean? Kind of a preliminary pop quiz. What is justice? The execution of righteousness. I like that a lot. We could stop there. But any other thoughts on that? Execution of righteousness. What is just? I was mistaken back in the 60s. We would be protesting over at a venue who was going to Alcatraz. And they were talking about justice and our saying was, just us. In other words, they were persecuting us. But anyway, that's just, I thought I'd say that. But I think that's kind of the backside of what Bernie said. When there's unrighteousness being committed or perceived unrighteousness, that could lead to someone crying out for justice, right? There's been a wrong and I want justice. Now, what does the Bible say about achieving justice? Yes. Well, we're going to look at some passages that deal with the complexity of this, but ultimate justice, vengeance, his mind does say at the Lord, right? So we're not to take matters into our own hands, but while we are here, we should pursue justice, right? And we should honor God's love and desire for justice within his creation. Any other thoughts? Yeah, Jameson. I think the other side of that, too, is reward when it's deserved. Sure, yeah. It's not always just about punishment, but it's also about reward when it's deserved. Yeah, and that's encouraging to us, right? It's on a small level, if you have a job and you work hard at that job, what do you expect at the end of the week? Wages, right, to be paid, that's justice. But if you worked that job and you worked hard and maybe even worked overtime, and then at the end of the week they said, yeah, I don't feel like paying you this week, that would be unjust, right? So there's a judgment aspect but also a reward aspect that we'll highlight. Now go to Genesis chapter three. Genesis chapter three. And I don't have any verses there because I think this passage is familiar, but we could look at some verses. But as you look at or think about Genesis chapter three, how do we see God's justice in this text? Where does God's justice show up in the fall of man? Yeah. I think when he's talking about. Like when he's talking about the head of the snake being crushed by the heel. Sure. He's talking about Christ's death and the justice that'll bring. Yeah. He's already foreshadowing something that's going to happen however many thousands of years in the future. Right. Do you know the fancy word for that passage? Starts with a P. Prophecy? Roll of Gamma. Or no pro no, I was thinking of a conversation proto evangelium So but you're on to that because that it's first gospel or a prototypical gospel good news God Foretold of good news that this wrong that just happened will be made, right? It may not be in their lifetime, but there's there's a perceived wrong there. So good observation. Yeah, John I see that particular chapter, all I see is grace. You know, deservingly, like all of us, they deserve spiritual and physical death for what they did. But I see God's grace stepping in, and boy, they didn't get justice for things deserved, I see grace right there. Sure. And grace. So I'm taking the Bible framework this semester with Charlie Clough. And I've talked about these principles before with you. For example, grace precedes judgment. And he shared something about grace isn't necessarily an attribute of God. It's a product or an outflow of his attribute of love, which means God doesn't have to be gracious. And so I think you're spot on. If we miss the grace of God in Genesis three, I think we're missing something. And that's why I love the order of these because we have holiness, sovereignty, and righteousness. If we're deficient in the understanding of those attributes, then we can miss the point of chapter three. Why does God act that way? Why does he seem to, why does he make pregnancy and child laboring difficult? Why does he make a man's labor difficult? Why that seems harsh? Well, if you understand those things, you understand why. Yeah, Karen. Well, he made them harsh because they are exactly what each gender, each person needs. The woman needs to be thinking about who's in charge and not fighting with him. And the man needs to have responsibility and be aware of his responsibility. And not only that, but even the serpent Sure Yeah, and that so there's little observations like that that are so crucial because and we talked about this But how often do we play this weird gender game of oh, it was Eve's fault or always at Adam's fault It was both of their they're both responsible, but I would say I would point the finger at Adam because he was a the head of his wife, Eve, and they participated together. Adam more so than even that, what happened with Eve, she was deceived by the serpent. I think the word's very important. Was Adam deceived? No. Adam chose to eat that fruit. He knew exactly what God said. He made a conscious choice. She was deceived. He was not. He chose that, so. And that's a great observation because, so why, so we have God speaking and implementing judgment on man, woman, and serpent. But if Eve was just deceived, why not just Adam? Why does Eve also get judgment? Doesn't mean that what she didn't do, what she did wasn't wrong. But she didn't know better. She was just deceived, right? It doesn't make any difference. Why doesn't it make any difference? It doesn't make a difference. Because God's righteous. And so she still ate it. Right. But she was deceived. Yes. But she chose to eat it. And so there's that. But Adam consciously chose to eat it. Exactly. Yep. big difference, right? Sure, absolutely. Amanda? As a parent, I feel like the concept of justice is pretty foreshadowed on my mind on the daily and dealing with my boys. Because it doesn't mean fairness. It definitely doesn't mean treating equally. It's a just consequence a lot of times for what happened. And a lot of times that's natural consequences. you know, what we see in Genesis 3 is, like Karen said, there's a natural consequence of like, okay, we're going to reestablish what this order is, and you're going to feel it a lot more heavily now. And, you know, for me, like, justice means, hey, my kids got in trouble, Titus was the instigator, but everybody else was involved, we're all getting a spanking. It's just an across the board, you're involved, this is the justice, and we're correcting the issue, Sure. I've been told... Like, so Adam was like the head of humanity. He was the first human being. So he holds like a position in humanity as the head of humanity. Would his position, did that make the punishment worse? And that's why it affected Eve as well, more as well? Or is that kind of something? I think that plays into it, but I think that while the judgment on Adam and Eve was personal, it was also corporate in that that was transferred, right? It wasn't just Eve has pain in childbirth and then the next generation it's over. This is now a consequence embedded into creation until the problem of evil and suffering is dealt with. Same thing with Adam. So I think you see that but yeah, it's ultimately because they Adam in particular was head of man John Yeah Essentially they're both guilty but as you look at it If you're getting really technical, Adam was the responsible head. But they both sinned, to Dan's point, right? And so it doesn't cheapen or lessen what Eve did. She was, deceived or not, she still violated the righteousness of God, and that demands justice act, right? If God was not just, okay, yeah, it's okay, Eve, just don't let it happen again, right? But God is just. And righteousness was violated, something must be done. Even if it's uncomfortable, even if we don't understand it, even if we don't Like it, Willa and then Trevor. But it was both of them made an individual choice. Sure. It wasn't forced upon them. Yeah, they made that choice. And yeah, you could read between the lines or speculate a little bit like maybe Eve should have said, Hey, Adam, I just was talking to the serpent the other day. and he was saying this, is this true? That didn't happen, right? Maybe if it did, Adam would say, wait, what? Who was talking to you? Serpents can talk. And that's a whole nother research question. Yeah, Trevor. I think you also get some, perhaps some good insight from an applicational standpoint into the uppercase Q to lowercase Q in our application perhaps of justice. And, you know, you see justice being applied for a knowledgeable, responsible party in Adam, but you also see the ignorance or misunderstanding deception as an excuse to avoid justice. You know, that's something we see a lot these days, insanity plea, this plea, that plea, means whatever they did didn't really matter, all of that. Another factor in it as well, though, is I think you also see with great mercy, tempering justice, because in my mind, when we think about grace as getting what you don't deserve, mercy as not getting what you do deserve, I really see mercy being displayed here through this, because what they deserve, ultimately, we're done, we're starting over, it's all, you know, God shows mercy, God shows, doesn't give them what they deserve, he lets them continue on, He creates a new way for them to interact. You know, spiritual death happens. He even provides a way out of the spiritual death. Physical death happens eventually. You know, so there's a lot of mercy tempering the justice that is being doled out and distributed. Well, I appreciate you saying that because again, you have to keep this in mind. God is all of these things all of the time. So the reason we see that tempering is because He's loving. But the reason we see him dealing with it is because he's just, and because he's righteous, and because he's sovereign. And so we have to keep that in mind. And that's why a lot of Bible teachers, and I would agree with them, see a doctrine, not a doctrine of judgment and a doctrine of salvation, but a doctrine of judgment salvation, because they're both. God does judge, but because he's also loving, he provides salvation. And that's what Trevor's saying. Rather than saying, in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die. And they ate of it and they're dead. He was true to his word, they did die spiritually, they were dying physically, but he provides the deliverance, the salvation from that. Karen. We also have to remember that God knew before he ever created Adam and Eve that this was gonna happen. Sure. That somebody would do it somewhere. But Adam is the... Right, which... And we're going to talk about this upstairs because there's some things that happened long before we ever existed, right? Even as creation, but God, you know, the lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth, which means God knew it's not like God had a backup plan. Okay, I'm going to do this. And just in case it doesn't work out, I'll go ahead and do this. It was a plan. And I think it all demonstrates his glory. And to your point, God, That's a part of his program, his eternal program. And we see it working out in Genesis. And that should be tremendously comforting to you because every step of the way, when you come across a narrative where it seems like all is potentially lost, right? Babylon is surrounded the city and the forces of evil are going to triumph over God, right? No. God has a plan, He has a program, and it cannot be destroyed or defeated. John? I agree with her totally. It was Adam's, you know, just like later in Scripture, I think it's in Romans, as one man sinned and another man sowed. It was man's only. And, you know, we can sugarcoat it and try to blame ye, but it was Adam who said, you know, don't take of that tree, because God didn't tell, it's specifically here, you know, it says here, have you taken, have you eaten from the tree which I commanded you, singular, not to eat? He didn't tell both, both he, both you's. He said, you Adam, I told you not to eat of that. So it was up to Adam to say, no, don't take that tree. But he did not. Which by the way, what strategy did Satan use to lead to their sin? He went after the woman. Went after the woman, but how did he go after her? Appeal to her vanity. Questioning truth? What'd you say? Appeal to her vanity. Yeah, appeal to vanity, but... He got her alone. Got her alone? And what Amanda said, truth, right? The Word of God. Causing doubt in what God said or says, we'll make it a general statement. Causing doubt to what God has said leads to error. Whether it's sin, the error of sin, or error of thinking, error of philosophy. That's why we stand alone on the Word of God, the B-I-B-L-E, right? God says it. Now, I'm not saying that we just turn off our thinking and God says that that settles it. There's a degree of truth in that, by the way. But we should be able to give a defense as to why is God's word verified here, here, and here? And that's why I appreciated Bill's work with the Genesis flood. If we didn't have that evidence, does that mean the flood didn't happen? The great deluge, the great flood. No, but you know what? Because it happened, you think there's going to be some evidence of it? Again, when it comes to stuff like that, we all have the same data. It's not like we're working with different data than the secular scientist is working with. We all have the same data, but it's how we read it. And we read it and we see this perfectly correlates with God's revelation of what happened. And theirs, frankly, does not. I was gonna say, you know, John mentioned something, but if you'll notice in verse two, Satan started off by asking her a question. He says, has God been good to you? So that means, oh, we gotta, but notice her response. God has said, you shall not eat, nor shall you touch it, lest you die. So that tells me that Adam clearly has communicated to her what God has said. Sure. So there's no question. Now, when you go into the next verse, well, then he begins to undercut that a little bit. Right. And she saw more. And then she, this is when she's getting that little pride. Right. She knew what God had said. Yep. Because she quoted exactly what God had said. Yep. And so Adam has communicated to her at this point that this is what God said. Now he's, She's being deceived now because she's going to, it's going to be undercut. It's always a question of what God said. So she's questioning God's goodness. Sure. Because you know, he wants you to do this. And I would agree. She, I think was very aware of what God has said, but she added to what God had said. Right. But she understood. But understood and understand right now. But she did know what he said. But even that, I think we learned something about homardiology, sin, in other words, in that the very same thing the rabbinical theology was doing in the first century, building fences around the law, happened right in the beginning. It's all recycled, right? And humorly, you know, I can envision maybe Adam says, woman, don't even touch it, right? But maybe that was a conclusion she came to. Regardless, that's a conclusion. But what is that? That's in our pride saying, We can contribute something to keep ourselves from sinning. And we have to learn the lesson the hard way if I do that. Karen? By adding that extra little bit to it, if she went over and touched the fruit, then she was like, well, maybe it's not true. Well, that and sinning against conscience, right? Because then we play into that. And so there's a whole lot there. It's not just kind of a fluffy children's story. There is so much detail there. And not sinning against conscience, because at that point, it wasn't there, but it's an illustration of that Romans 14, right? If this is impure for you to eat, and you eat it, well, you've sinned, not because that thing truly is impure, but because you've violated your conscience. If we see that in our children, I mean... Never. If you say no for a good reason, maybe explain it, you know, but that little finger... Well, what's the most, if you had like a lexicon of words that a child uses before they're five, how many usages of the question why would there be? Why? Why? Bill? On John's comment, in chapter two is when the Lord specifically told Adam, don't eat. That's right. Then he made Eve. Then they went ahead and went through the process. And I always like verse 17 in chapter 3. Basically, the first statement to Adam was, you listen to your wife. And we can, I think I've made this, mentioned this before, and we'd make a joke out of it. But I think the really serious thing is, is very practically all of us in this room, Who are we listening to? That is the key. And so, if you want to manipulate what God says, you know, people will read something and they say, I know what it says, I just don't believe it. And you're in trouble. And that just starts right in Chapter 3. We simply don't listen to the right voice. Very good. Well, let's move on to chapter six and eight. What happens there? What major event happens and how does God's justice show up? The flood narrative. How is the flood just? What about those good, hardworking, innocent people that also perished? But what about the children? See, at a glance, and I know you guys are better prepared, but your average Christian can't answer that question. Well, why did God destroy the children? And we get a heightened emotional response to that because we don't understand, but do you think God knows what would have happened had things continued? If all the adults in that, just think logically for a minute, if all the adults were wicked, what's going to happen with the children? So we are not perfectly righteous. So are we capable of executing perfect justice? So we have to be very careful pointing the finger at God and saying, God, I think you were wrong here. I think I had a better idea. I think I would have handled that much better. God is perfectly righteous. He's also perfectly loving. So let us not forget that when we're thinking when judgment is being demonstrated. It's not like he turned off his love. In fact, I would make the argument to you, if God did not love humanity. Hold on, I gotta be careful not to do a double negative. If God didn't love humanity. Because God loves humanity, he flooded the earth. Now that sounds crazy, right? That's lunatic talk. But how does that work out? Well, no one gets saved. If sin wasn't dealt with there, there is no Noah. There is no Shem and his descendants, Abraham, his descendants, Jesus. So God's love is demonstrated. Bernie and then Amanda. And to the extent that there were babies under the age of accountability that were still human. Yes. Yes. Part of that generation. Yes. Yes, and that's a great point. I don't know where all of you individually stand on this, but I believe I don't think there's a hard and fast line of accountability, meaning, you know, like the Mormons, for example, say 12 if you're below 12. Well, I've known a lot of terribly wicked kids under the age of 12, and they knew what they were doing, and they understood the gospel. So there is that aspect that Children who are incapable of understanding and believing, I believe, the basis of the cross. But if I'm wrong, will not the God of all the earth do what is right? Hold on. What's that? Well, I think there's evidence in David's prayer, but it's not an age given. under 20, 20 and under. They were not held accountable for what went before. You turn and tell me that a 19-year-old, well, wait a minute, God said that they're going to go into the land. I'm not saying that that's the age of accountability. I'm saying you have a pretty clear something that God's not going to punish anyone who's 20 and under by allowing them to die in the wilderness, because there's a chance for that. And so they're going on. Does everybody in the flood, does everybody, because they died in a flood, does that mean that they were guilty? Exactly, right. And how many of the other descendants, Noah's cousins, maybe they were carnal Christians. Obviously they weren't Christians. But when we think of those children, Trevor, and then Amanda. I was just going to say real quick, Second Kings, I think it's Second Kings, I always forget the chapter. One of the kings of Israel later on when they've gone wicked, he had all these sons. He had one son that was taken as an infant. And the specific reason given is because God saw that there was goodness in him. Sure. And so when you have that idea of age of accountability, children dying, et cetera, perhaps there is even love and justice in that. Like, I don't know, you know, that same principle applied back then. Well, and also think about, you know, we're stacking doctrines on doctrines, but I believe there is biblical evidence of degrees of judgment for those at the, or not the Bemis, but the great white throne and hell. So a child... well, we won't go down that. Someone perishing before their time, so to speak, wouldn't they have less opportunity to sin and pile on that doctrine? So all that to be said, the reason this is an error is because we get these things twisted and we start reading the judgments that God executes through the filter of our own personal righteousness rather than God's. And we have to reach the point that even if I don't understand it, even if I don't like it, having the heart and understanding of Abraham will not the God of all the earth do what is right? Because even Abraham, right? He's struggling with this very concept. I know enough about your righteousness, God, I know about your judgment, and I know your intent on destroying this city, but what about the righteous? As if it had never occurred to God, wow, Abraham, you're right, there might be some in there. And yet, even Abraham's argument, his degree of righteousness didn't pass God's, right? God's was superior. Amanda, I'm sorry. No, back to Noah, though. It wasn't until God said, hey, I'm gonna destroy the earth with a flood, and then did it the next day. Noah preached for a long time. I mean, these people had lots of chances. And so, you know, there's that aspect, too, is God had grace ready, had the ark ready to go for people to, and no one, no one chose that. They thought he was crazy. And that's how it worked. Commentators say that there was probably room left over on the ark for lots of people to be on their head they chose. But you think, you know, from Noah's perspective, he's already on this massive project. God, why am I wasting my time with this? But God is demonstrating his grace there, even if it never, which maybe perhaps illustrates something with the atonement doctrine, right? Did Christ die for all or just a certain group that would receive it. Is his death sufficient for all or just for those who it's applied? And I obviously would take the position that his death is sufficient for all, even those who reject it. Um, we might have time to get to Proverbs. So let's go ahead and turn to Proverbs 11. Proverbs chapter 11 and verse 1. Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is His delight. What do we learn about the doctrine of righteousness, the doctrine of justice, and how it relates to God and man in this text? What are dishonest scales? Let's start there. Okay, so it's not the scale in our bathroom that shows us a number we don't like. It's being dishonest to us, right? No, but in the ancient world, how would they measure, did they have money counters? Yes, but it was also in weight, right? You're dealing with gold and silver. Yeah, a coin is a coin, but what if that coin's been used a lot and some flakes and chips are off of it? And or yeah, trimming it. So what would they do? They would weigh it out. Well, if you wanted to take a little off the top, what would you do if you were a dishonest business person? Dishonest scales. Is that justice? Did they get very wealthy off those things? Did God know all the while that it was going on? And this is his response. It's an abomination to him. Now, I think this also becomes a metaphor for man's judgment on any given case where there are dishonest scales, so to speak, in the situation where there's less than perfect righteousness, and they're skewing the facts or the evidence, and they are making judgments or determinations that aren't truly just. Did that ever happen in the ancient world? Does it ever happen today? God hates that. Why does God hate it? Because he is just. He knows the right thing in every situation. And it's an affront to his very attribute of justice when we act in that way. Now that, again, this should be comforting, especially if you're in Christ, God sees all, right? Everything you do, the things that, you know, if you're struggling with not getting the attention, maybe you're working so hard and you just wish someone would acknowledge, someone would notice. God sees, and He's just, so He will repay. But on the flip side, if you're walking in darkness and sinning or whatever, God sees, right? And there's justice. Bill? For the first two, you're not listening. On this one here, you are actually lying. And he really hates lying. Yes. Right. Which is interesting, because whose language, native language, is lying? Yeah. Yeah. I look at that, you know, I see not only race, But it's a metaphor for dishonesty in everything in life. If you're not telling the whole truth, you're leaving parts out, that's an abomination to the Lord. For instance, you could tell somebody something to leave something out so you look better or so they would be deceived. Yeah. It's just how weightless it is. It has to do with a lot of things I like. Yep. Well, and another quick thing before we go to prayer and close, an illustration from the pastor's conference, the parable of the talents. Is God's justice equity? Meaning, does God even it out for all, everyone gets the same share? Think of the parable of the talents, right? You've got a guy who gets ten talents, a guy who gets five talents, a guy who gets one talent. The guy with one buries it, the guy with five doubles it, the guy with ten doubles it. So when the guy who buried it is judged, what does God do with the talent? Gives it to the guy with five because he has less and he's trying to create that equity. gives it to the guy with 10. Hold on, doesn't he have enough? So I think there's an illustration there that it's not evening the playing field because we are all individually responsible for the works that we do in this life. And God's perfect justice applies in that situation to either judge or reward in a perfectly just way. way. And that's a good point and this was tremendously encouraging to me at the conference. Andy Woods shared from this passage and I'll close with this.