This is the Faith Debate, a theological roundtable gab fest, a free-for-all forum with faith community leaders wrestling over the truth. In less than one half hour, learn more about what really matters than what most others learn in a week. The Faith Debate is on the World Wide Web at WFMD.com, keyword faith. Are you ready for the clash of ideas? Are you ready for the sound of freedom? Let's get ready to rumble in this corner, weighing in with a master of divinity from Reform Theological Seminary, the Faith Debate Master of Ceremonies, Troy Skinner. That's me. Thanks for tuning in. You can find us online, as I think the announcer man just said, at WFMD.com. Keyword faith gets you there. Also, you can find the drop-down menu of the programs listed on the homepage for WFMD.com, and just click on the Faith Debate. And there you will find Links to podcasts from previous shows you'll see a rundown of what's me coming up on upcoming episodes of the faith debate show and if you've missed the show and you want to go back and find you can kind of scroll through and find the the show description the show title that makes sense and you'll be able to find the right podcast and I mentioned that off the start because you might want to do that after you hear today's show because i should years ago i used to do a show when i was in orlando the sports show and and back then there was no email or anything like that electronic stuff it was all it was all uh... uh... actual mary kate mail carrier stuff so we get letters and i had this little jingles as letters we get letters i should play that If you were listening the last two weeks, you know, the faith debate, we apparently get letters and I read a correspondence. It was an email correspondence with a listener who had some very serious questions, very serious kinds of questions. We went back and forth and I shared that dialogue with you last week and the week before. You don't have to have heard those to follow along this week and next, but it might be helpful. So if you haven't listened to the podcast or heard those shows, go back and listen to the podcast. So on the show this week, to help me further digest that exchange with the listener, the troubled listener, are Imran, Imran, I keep saying Imran. I've said that to my wife a million times when I told you guys we're gonna be back on the show. Imran, he goes by Raz, and I guess that's why, because people keep saying his name wrong. Tammy and Daniel Razvi. They've all been on the show before, but never together. This is cool. So it's great to have you guys on. Daniel's on maybe a year-ish ago, year and a half, something like that. I can't remember exactly what the topic was, but some legal questions. There were some freedom of speech, freedom of religion questions in the news that we went through several articles with me and a local pastor. So those were dynamic shows. You impressed everybody who was listening with how articulate you are and thoughtful and measured. So that's going to be in play on today's show, I think. And the last time Tammy was on the show was with Raz. You came on together to talk about, I think, child rearing and parenting issues, family issues, that sort of a thing. We talked about parenting and adoption. It was during the adoption month about a year ago, I think. Okay. And then we've also had Raz on the show solo, while him and another panelist, but not with the other parts of his family, to talk about your conversion story because you grew up Muslim, correct? Yes, Muslim background believer. And you're now a Christian. And you were, Daniel, talking about the legal stuff because you were very close to taking the bar, and I'm assuming you've passed by now. Is that a fair assumption? No? No, I still have to... Still have more work to do. Okay. So I can't call you a lawyer yet? I kept referring to him as a legal expert last time and he got mad at me. Well, you can call me a legal expert if you like, but my career is in the family business, higher ground, financial group. But I do have a legal background, so. Okay. Yeah, I needed him in my agency too much, so he didn't have time to really take the bar exam, so he put it off for a little bit. Yeah, because Raz's agency, he does financial planning and things like that, right? That's how you get the bills paid. But their hearts work, their life work is ministry related. That's why we had you on talking about the family issues. You've led a number of seminars, you've written a number of booklets on the subject, that sort of thing. Right. We have a ministry, Conquered by Love, which is focused on handling the relationships and families and bonding everyone together. those uh... care between parents and children and and you've hosted and and i guess lead a uh... house church uh... for years and so uh... that's why your wonderful panel for this topic we get into it now uh... a a woman listener. I'm not sure how often she listens, how long of a time she spent listening, how familiar she is with the show, but she wrote, and I'm not going to read everything because I've already read all of this the last couple of weeks, but I'm going to get a start in case you missed that so we can get started. This is the very first email she sent. just the first couple paragraphs. She says, Hi Troy, I listened to some of your radio program podcasts and really enjoyed them. Was particularly interested in the one from January 8th of 2018, so that's about a year ago, about how one moves from unbelief in Christ to belief. You and your panel touched on the subject of moving from mental ascent to genuine saving faith, but just barely. I'm interested in knowing how one takes hold of Christ in the heart in a way that transforms I've been stuck in this place for a long time, wanting the penny to drop, but that hasn't happened. I don't have intellectual problems with the Bible. It's that my heart hasn't been melted in a way that results in joy, peace, and a change of nature. I'm not looking for an experience, but a genuine heart change, and I don't think it's happened. I think I'd know if it had. I've grown up immersed in Christianity, know the Bible inside and out, and attend a Bible-believing church. I know all about God, but can't seem to connect with him personally. I'm not sure if it's a spiritual or psychological problem or a mixture. I long to have a personal relationship with Jesus, but never have, and at age 66, it's way past time. He seems abstract and distant to me, and I know that's not right because he is, in reality, neither of those. So, I shared all of this with you guys beforehand so you could kind of process and digest it. If this listener were addressing you, so somebody maybe in your church group or somebody who's at one of your ministry functions and comes with this kind of a question, what might be something that you might say to her, ask of her, What's the first thing? Because this is a training ground for the listener, by the way. Pay attention to the answers that we give. They might not be good, but at least pay attention so you can decide if, yeah, that's an approach I would want to take or that's an approach I would avoid at all costs. But what was your first take when you read the email exchange? Who wants to go first? How about Daniel? He's looking like he's leaning in. Well, I think the biggest question is, are you saved? I think that's what she's wondering. Are you saved? And so you have to look to scripture to determine whether you're saved. It's not a subjective feeling or thinking in your mind. It's whether you are fulfilling the scriptural requirements for salvation. And we know that's not anything that we can do or should do ourselves. It's all through God's grace. But Romans tells us, Romans 10, 9, that if we confess Jesus with our mouth, that he is Lord, and we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, then we will be saved. There's no if or and or but, so it's pretty simple. If you do believe, and just believing that he's God doesn't necessarily cover it. You have James, where James said, you know, even the demons believe. There is one God, but obviously they're not saved But at the same time if you're believing in Jesus you accept him that he's Lord Not just that he exists as the demons Understand, but that he is Lord over your life Then and you obviously that God raised him from the dead he died for our sins And that's the only way to get to heaven then you will be saved there's It seems like that kind of is the crux of the question that the listener's asking. We're basically kind of saying to her, well, let's find out. Are you saved? And she's saying, yeah, let's find out. Am I saved? I don't know if I'm saved. Right. It seems like she's listed some experiences that she would expect to have had if she were saved and believes that she hasn't had those experiences and then she's equating that with not having been saved. And I think those are two separate things. Just from a parenting perspective, you know, God is our Father, so I'm going to do a little analogy here with parenting. You know, a child can feel that mommy and daddy aren't loving me, I'm not happy, I'm like fighting this situation. If they really cared about me, if I really had a good relationship with them, then I would be at peace. I would be happy right now, or I would have these kinds of feelings that she's with, I'd have a close relationship with them. But in reality, sometimes it's being just resting in that relationship and honoring, maybe honoring the parents. You see a lot of maybe discomfort in a relationship, but it's about looking at yourself and saying, I need to be made happier. I need to be made this way. Whereas if you look to the other person in the relationship, so a child looking to a parent and just maybe caring about the rules in the family, caring about honoring the parents, you know, Scripture tells us to honor our parents. And if we do that, we see the relationship blossom. And then those things come back where you see a child more at peace. And I think that's almost what she's asking, is the sense that I get. She's expecting those feelings to come, but maybe it's just that she doesn't have that close relationship with him, but that's outside of the initial salvation. Otherwise, the thief on the cross next to him wouldn't have been in heaven with him. It might be good actually for me to use this financial phrase with the financial guy in the room. Imran is a financial planner and she's talking about wanting the penny to drop. So I'm turning you kind of cutesy with that phrase, but in reality, she's feeling like she's been immersed. She's grown up, it sounds like, in a Christian environment. She knows the Bible inside and out, she says. She believes, but she's not sure she believes because she's not feeling like her heart is transformed. So she's seeking some sort of a confirmation of her conversion because she feels like she hasn't had one maybe. And you have a conversion story. So was there something in your conversion where you felt the penny drop? that you can say, you know what, this is something I could say to you, like, did you ever feel this, experience that, think this, have somebody say that to you that helped you to, how did you know when you became a believer, a follower of Jesus Christ, how did you know? Well, I don't believe I had that moment. As some people say, on July 21st at 8 a.m., I converted. And I've heard many Christians say that, and they've said, you know, this was an amazing time, my whole, everything changed. I've never had that. With me, it was intellectually studying the Bible and the Quran and other historical books and trying to figure out what is it that God, who is God and what is He trying to tell us and what does He want from us? And I finally started to understand that the God of the Bible is the true God. Jesus is His Son and He died for my sins and that is the only way for me to have that relationship with God. Up until then, it was more of a slave relationship as a Muslim, and it was very much a tightrope of how many good things versus how many bad things. But once I realized there was nothing I could do, nothing that I had done to earn the salvation, it was an eye-opening thing. It was intellectual, but it wasn't something that I had a great meltdown or a fever feeling. What touched me is, once I did that, made that acceptance that Jesus died for my sins, then, okay, now what? Well, if I love God, like God loved me enough to die for me, if I love Him, what am I supposed to do? And it clearly says in the Bible that I will follow His commands. So, now I have to read the Bible and find out what his commands are and follow them. Does that help me get saved? Does that give me assurance of salvation? No. But what it does is the outward appearance and the fruit. And I think in the email exchange you talked about, she was talking about her fruit, that she doesn't feel that there is any fruit in her life. And the fruit in your life comes from loving god and if you love him and accept his uh... is dial across for you then you would want to love him by doing his commands and we do is commands that is the fruit that it doesn't get you in heaven but that is the fruit that comes from it and uh... eyes most of my read many many stories of the dreams and visions coming to Muslims all across the world, and I look to myself and say, I didn't get my dream, I didn't get my vision, that's not fair, and what's wrong with me? The devil's always gonna be talking to us and trying to whisper in our ear to give us doubts and concern about, are you really saved, do you really know? And the fact is, I'm assured because God says so. And once God says so and I accept that, that is my assurance. It's the only insurance I need is that God said so. He said so in his Bible and I believe him. Now the rest is up to me to love him. And when I love him, that's where the fruit comes in. That's where my relationship gets stronger with God. And as I've grown, closer to God after I read my Bible and prayed. And I think a lot of time it's the prayer and singing that has helped me to get closer to the relationship with God. They're annoying him better. How do you get close to anybody? You should spend time with them. And your listener said she spends lots of time. She knows the Bible inside and out. So where's the disconnect? Well, I'm not sure that she's going to find the life-changing, powerful whatever that people talk about in their testimonies and things like that. I didn't find that, but I do feel very close to him. Over time, I felt closer. And walking in faith is a tough thing. And we've had plenty of times that our families walked in faith and we were just waiting, you know, what is God going to do? We know who he is. We know that he loves us. Now it's up to us to follow that faith. That's the voice of Imran Razvi, who was joined this week by his wife, Tammy, and their son, Daniel. The Razvi clan are a part of them, anyway. Their clan is like the size of a small city. How many are in your family now? We have 13 children. 13. Yeah, the way God intended it. Be fruitful, multiply, right? And they have a ministry, Conquered by Love, right? It's on conqueredbylove.org. Is that the website, remember? Yes. All right, so, Daniel, your parents tell you that they love you. Your father just said that God tells him that God loves him, and he believes it. Your parents, I'm assuming, have told you at least once that they love you. Once or twice. Yeah, a few times, anyway. I can't remember that. So, how do you know? Why do you believe your parents? I'm trying to find an analogy that would help this listener or others who are listening in to understand how we can trust when God says, yes, you. Well, in one sense, you believe and you trust until you have reason to doubt someone. So if you're believing and trusting a human, you're normally going to believe them until you have reason otherwise. When God says something, when God is the creator of the universe, he is all-knowing and all-powerful, and he is all-truthful. The Bible teaches us that God is truth. So everything he says must be true. So if it's in his Bible, then it's true. If and or but, as I said earlier. The parental relationship mirrors that, but humans are fallible. So humans can make mistakes, they can tell lies, but God does not. God does not lie. In fact, I think it says in Romans, God cannot lie. People often say, well, there's nothing God can't do. Well, there's some things that God can't do, as in it's against his nature. It's not in his nature to lie. It's not in his nature to not show love towards us when we are believing in him. Yeah, I think the question that this particular listener is having, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that she's saying, I doubt God and his word. She's doubting herself somehow, right? So when we say things like we've said so far on the panel, we've said things like, you know, well, God's word says, and so therefore it's true. I think what she's saying is, yeah, but how do I know that therefore it's true for me? Well, I think in the email exchange, she hasn't asked things that are red flags to me. I hear people sometimes ask, well, I'm not doing enough, or maybe I'm not good enough. She seems to understand that you don't need to be good. You can't be good enough. You can't do enough works. It's not works-based. It is faith-based. So she understands that she does need to have faith. You don't need to do any works. Your works will be the fruit, but they don't save you. And all you need is to believe in Jesus. So the question kind of has its own answer that, well, the Bible says that I need to believe that Jesus died for my sins, and then I'll be saved. But how do I know if I believe that? If we put specific parameters on, in order for me to be saved, I must experience this and this and this, then we're taking over the role of God, in the sense that He has a different relationship. I've got 13 children. I love every one of them. But my relationship with each of them is slightly different. And what we do together might be slightly different. And so that relationship might be slightly different with each of his children. And it depends on her growth in her relationship with him and where she is in her walk, his ages, not necessarily. a marker for spiritual maturity. It may be more likely, if she's been in church all her life, that she's had quite a bit of time to mature, but it's not always. And so each of us have this relationship that's different, and what your relationship with your father looks like might be different than someone else's, and it doesn't make it any less valid. And so seeing that someone else is able to just experience resting completely in peace where maybe she's not at that point in her relationship with him, that's okay. That doesn't mean it's not as valid of a relationship or not as much of a father-child relationship. Now, I maybe should have even started with this question, I guess, because I talked about how you guys are involved in ministry and a house church and discipling children in a big family. I mean, there's lots of opportunities to deal with crises of conscience, crisis of faith, you know, people, even the best of us having moments where there's not any evidence that we're believers because we've just made the worst decision possible. like choosing purposely to do something that's wrong, knowing it's wrong and doing it anyway. Right? Everybody has been there. It's like, holy cow, like, am I a complete fraud? So when you've, have you had to deal with these questions with your children, with people in your, in your church group, with people that you meet at these seminars or readers of your books who ask these kinds of questions, or is it not something that gets asked of you that often? I think it is a pretty common thing. You do have to keep searching, as you're a believer. There's a friend of ours, Bernie Beal. Sure, he's been on the show a number of times, friend of the program. Who is very fond of saying, I'm probably committing some sin right now. I just don't know about it. And as soon as I find out, as soon as God tells me and shows me, then I'll stop doing it. But I don't know yet. But if you're constantly searching, then you'll see areas where God's gonna teach you to grow more like Jesus. But it's a constant search process. It's not something that you get saved and now you're perfect and now you're always walking with God. 24-7. Also, this is a difficult subject, and in our Christian circles, you never really want other people to know your struggles, because then they'll judge you, and they'll think, are you saved? And so it's not a topic that's often covered. Going to church feels an awful lot like being on Facebook, right? People always put their best face forward. They don't talk about their struggles and their challenges so easily. Absolutely. When Tammy and I minister and coach parents, uh... many times they have not disclosed some of these things in the church or they have disclosed some of it and they've had a lot of uh... a lot of judgment and it makes it very difficult for them to be open so this i think is a common theme among many many people Because we are doubters. We're going to doubt. Every time something goes wrong, well, does God love me? We're going to doubt. And even Job, you know, he was reprimanded. He did everything right, and then he was reprimanded because he was putting himself in God's position, saying, well, I did all this. And so God doesn't have any right or reason to punish me. Well, God has every reason to. So when we are looking at outside things that are happening to us and judging that based on our relationship with God, it's always gonna be doubtful. So we have to take it on faith that this is what God said, and this is what he means, and this is what our relationship is. We will fall short all the time. God never falls short. And that's a good word for us to end this program on. We're gonna continue with this panel next week because there's a lot more to be said to this particular listener. And to Raz's comment, I think it's incredibly common, if not universal, in the Christian experience to have at least occasional doubts. Maybe not lifelong struggles like this particular list has had, but to have at least occasional. But I will say, in my experience, it's been somewhat rare in the sense of people voicing it to me. Maybe 10 times in my whole life have I been around somebody saying this kind of thing. I'm not sure if I'm saved. But I will say, in every single one of those instances, the person that was asking that question I'm like, what do you mean? Like, if you're not saved, I don't know anybody who is just based on what I see in your life. I see way more fruit in your life than you seem to see in your own life. So whenever somebody asks a question like this, that gives me reason to hope that they actually have an authentic faith. That's not a proof, it's not an absolute litmus test, but I think it's part of the indicator that should give this listener and others like her some confidence anyway. That's gonna be the end of this show. Thank you to Imran, Raz, Tammy, and Daniel Razvi. Conqueredbylove.org is their website. This is the faith debate. Our website is wfmd.com. Keyword faith gets you there. Did I say my name? I said your name. Did I say my name? I'm Troy Skinner, in case you care. We will be back with this same panel 167 and a half hours from now. Until then, have a blessed week. God bless.