I, um, was challenged by a man named Larry Wessels, who is the director of Christian Answers Ministries in Austin, Texas. And Larry was the one that produced my first debate over 15 years ago. But he wanted to debate me on Calvinism's limited atonement doctrine, so I took him up on it. The video you just saw was from Steve McCaleb's YouTube program. Steve's initial contact to Larry Wessels, April 3rd, 2009, states, Larry, I called you and left a message last night and today. Maybe you read these first. I debated on your program with Mark McNeil about 15 years ago in Austin and was interested in doing another debate against a Calvinist. In particular, I was wondering if you knew of a Calvinist who would debate limited atonement. Bob Ross and Mike Ross gave me your email and number. I've known them for over 20 years. Steve McCaleb initially challenged for a debate, not Larry Wessels challenging first. Steve's YouTube show also made these claims. I think I brought out some issues that my opponent, Larry Wessels, really could not answer. And it was pretty obvious, I think, that he wasn't able to refute many of the things I brought out. I got Larry in a lot of, what I believe, some catch-22s, rocking a hard place that he couldn't get out of. And he basically just kind of shuffed off the answers. I'm using the wrong word here. We leave the viewers to decide if these further claims by Steve McCaleb are true. Please watch the debate and decide for yourself. Please contact Christian Answers for free information on numerous subjects. Important subjects such as the biblical doctrine of the Godhead, the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Free newsletters are available on the heretical position held by many unbiblical cults such as Jehovah's Witnesses and the Oneness Pentecostals who deny the Trinity. Free newsletters are available on strange groups such as the King James Onlyites. To receive your free information, please call 512-218-8022 or email us at cdebateraol.com. To see full-length videos on these and other subjects, go to Yahoo Video, type Larry Wessels into the search box, and click on the icon for iShoot Video or iShoot Video 2. Larry Wessels is director of Christian Answers of Austin, Texas, which also has the copyrighted name Christian Debater. Larry has been married to his only wife, Diane, since 1980, and they have four children, two of them handicapped. Larry earned his Bachelor of Science degree in advertising at the University of Texas at Austin. Larry was supernaturally born again by the Holy Spirit of God on May 16, 1981, and since then has used his university degree to advertise the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible. Larry has produced over 500 hours of television shows on cable access television, publication of newsletters with an international outreach, broadcasting radio shows, participating in street and campus evangelism, writing articles for Christian magazines, doing public speaking engagements and debates, and authoring the book, Unpopular Bible Doctrines, are some of Larry's other activities. Mr. McCaleb is a native Houstonian and father of five sons ranging from six to 20 years old. His wife, Lisa, and he have been married for 21 years. Steve earned his bachelor's degree from Baylor University and obtained two master's degrees in education from the University of Houston. He is a published author with AMG Publishers International and wrote the book, Where'd That Come From? Everyday Expressions Found in the Bible. Steve has also authored several other books, including the most controversial book in the world, The Bible. and has written over 100 articles and produced over 65 10-minute videos on his website at KingJames.com. Steve has taught for over 21 years and is currently teaching with the Houston Community College System. For the last seven years, Steve has been counseling in the Texas prison system as a vocation and education counselor, helping inmates obtain their education and learn vocational trades. My name is Bob Ross. I'm from Pasadena, Texas, and generally representative of Pilgrim Publications, publishers of the works of C.A. Spurgeon. And we have a debate today between Larry Wessels of Christian Answers of Austin, Texas, and Steve McCaleb of Houston, Texas. And the debate is on the nature and extent of the atonement as it's defined in the respective propositions. Steve's proposition with regard to his view, and Larry's proposition on the atonement with regard to his view. And of course, we're going to have five-minute speeches, and we'll have each person rebutting the position of the opposite party. And we would like to say that the rules of debate they have agreed to follow are Hedges' rules of debate, And while we will not be trying to police either of these speakers, we do hope that they will maintain good order and respect and following the specifications that are laid down in Hedge's Rules of Debate. And the first speaker for this particular show will be Steve McCaleb. Okay, going to be discussing again how the blood of Jesus Christ paid for the sins of all men. And by all men, I mean every man that is living today, and for that matter, all men throughout history. I want to start with Romans chapter 5. And to me, I think this is one of the strongest defenses of the fact that God died and shed his blood for all men. I feel like it's probably the strongest and the one that Larry's going to have the most trouble with. And so let me go ahead and start with that. And before I do that, actually, though, I'd like to just show my listeners, if they're interested in any of these articles that I've written on Calvinism or on related issues, that they can go to kingjamesman.com. That's my website. And you'll find hundreds of articles and books all free, no charge. as well as many videos I've done on limited atonement and Calvinism and related topics. So go to KingJamesMan.com and you can find plenty of stuff there to study. All right, Romans chapter 5 tells us, and let's read it together, it says, Wherefore is by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin. And so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. And then the next one says, therefore by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. All men. And it says, even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Now, what I'm going to prove in this scripture is, and even Larry will attest to this, that by Adam, all men were made sinners. and that judgment came upon all men because of Adam. And when you look at this passage, by one man, it's talking about Adam. It says, by one man, death passed upon all men. Now he can argue this definition of all, but this scripture is going to prove that all, not only that all means every single human being on the face of this earth for even he will agree that all men in this passage referring to Adam even Larry will agree that this all man is talking about every man that came from Adam every man that's ever been born that came from Adam judgment death passed upon all of those men now look at the parallel that God is making here in Romans 5 in the very next in the next few verses it says Judgment came upon all men. That's through Adam. And even, like I said, Larry will attest, that means every man that's ever been born. Judgment came upon all men. That all means every single man, and he will agree with that. He can't disagree with that. And so in the same verse, it says, the free gift came upon all men. And the free gift, of course, is Jesus Christ. And it says, the free gift came upon all men. Look how God himself is defining for us the phrase all men. If all men means every man through Adam, which it does, then that same all men means all the same men can receive the free gift through Jesus Christ. And that, my friends, is definitive proof that all men means every single human being. Because for him to deny that, he would have to deny that judgment came only on some men through Adam. But he himself will agree that judgment came through every man that came through Adam. the judgment of death that sin produced came through every descendant of Adam. And in that same paragraph it tells us that that free gift came upon those same all men. You can't change all men midstream in the same exact verse and say that all men means all of Adam's descendants, but when it comes to Jesus Christ it doesn't mean all men, it only means some men. Well, you would be you would be totally contradicting yourself and the scriptures. Now Romans 5 also says, we're continuing in Romans 5, it says, for as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. And he'll jump on this word many and say, see it only means many, it doesn't mean all. Ah, but he hasn't read far enough. And it says, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Well, If you notice, you compare the last, you will see that many means all. For it says, many were made sinners. Look, many were made sinners. But we know that all were made sinners through Adam. So again, it's showing you that God can use the word many to also mean all. But what he has to answer is how all men through Adam received death. And in the very same verse, God says all men can receive the free gift of eternal life. He's going to have to answer how all men suddenly changed meaning in the same exact verse. from Adam to Jesus. All right, time's up. Larry Wessels will now make reply to the first speech of Steve. Thank you, Bob. Well, Steve has brought up Romans chapter 5. Remember his initial proposition is that God died for the sins of the whole world, every human being, and is the Savior of all men, especially of them that believe. He's basically saying that Romans chapter 5 and the verses he brought up on his screen there is God died for everyone throughout all time. Whether they lived 2,000 years before Christ ever came on the scene or not, it doesn't matter. This is making salvation available to everyone throughout all time is his argument. see said the free gift did not come to everybody but whoever lived all can't be equal by simply looking at context in relation to Jesus Christ. He's trying to say all in that Romans passage there he was quoting means all for everybody all the time no matter what but I'm arguing that all you have to do is look at what Paul is talking about in context of this passage and in the context of the book of Romans. And when you relate what he's talking about in Romans with what Steve's talking about in his affirmative proposition is that Jesus died for everybody who ever lived. And if you remember from the previous show, one of the questions I asked him, was that Jesus died for Pharaoh, that Jesus died for Cain, that Jesus died for Ahab and Jezebel, for Sennacherib who was trying to destroy Jerusalem, and all the other Old Testament bad guys who lived centuries and sometimes thousands of years before Jesus ever came on the scene. And anyone with a brain can realize that how is it that, let's say, Sennacherib, when he's surrounding Jerusalem in a besieging, and the Lord sends an angel and wipes out 180,000 of his men, he goes back to his home in disgrace and goes to worship his false god after all his army's wiped out, and then his own sons kill him while he's in there praying to a false god. How is it this guy got the same opportunity to accept Christ in his blood as the people that Paul is talking about in the book of Romans in chapter 5. See, now how does this relate to what Steve's talking about? I mean, it doesn't relate. It's a total non-secular. He's trying to make this big deal about all and how Romans chapter 5 says that Sennacherib, or after Cain killed his brother Abel, He got the same opportunity through Christ's blood as these believers as we read about some of these conversions in the book of Acts, for instance. You got Cornelius there in Acts chapter 10. What does God do? He sends an angel to go to Cornelius and say, hey, send for this guy named Peter and have him come over and listen to what he has to say. Did God do that for everybody? No. Here's Lydia in Acts chapter 16, and it says, God opened the heart of Lydia to attend to the things spoken of by Paul. Acts chapter 8, you got Philip being sent out to the Ethiopian eunuch. Why did God do this for these guys? I mean, did he do that for Sennacherib when he went back to pray to his false god? Did God do that for Ahab, let's say, before he went out to fight that battle at Ramoth Gilead, and God had determined to kill him there and even sent his own prophet to tell him you're going to die at that battle. And sure enough, God killed him at that battle with an arrow that was sent pre-adventure. What we have is God actively involved in the salvation of sinners. He's active in what happens. You got the Philippian jailer. And all these miracles happen, and the apostles are freed, and then the Philippian jailer says, what must I do to be saved? I mean, but did God do this for other guys? No, I think when Jesus was chastised in about 35 seconds. OK. I could go on and on and this kind of stuff but the free gift did not come to everybody like he's talking about and when you look at passages of scripture which I've already gone into in other shows about the word many and all and we'll get into this some more you'll see that God does not do the same things all the time in every case. All right Steve McCaleb will have his second affirmative. I'm going to be affirming, of course, again, that God died for the sins of the whole world, and showing you some more examples of that. But let me just address what Larry said real quick. He keeps asking, did God die for all these people in the Old Testament, Sennacherib, Cain, and so forth, and all these other people? Well, it's very simple, Larry. All of the people in the Old Testament knew that God was coming, and that they put their faith and the fact that God was going to lay down his life in the future. And Isaiah prophesied of it, the child is going to be born, a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders. Most of the men knew the prophets of the Old Testament. They knew that God was coming in the flesh. And the fact that God was coming in the flesh was proclaimed many times in the Old Testament. And everybody that read the Old Testament knew that God was going to come himself and visit and lay down his life so they put their faith in that Larry and that's how God could that's how they could put their faith in God's blood being shed at Calvary all right let me let me just tell you a few people who died who died who Jesus died for Larry real quickly You say, did he die for these people? Did he die for these people? Well, let's look what scripture says who he died for. It says one died for all. It says he reconciled the world to himself. It says he's the savior of all men. It says that the free gift came upon all men. It says he will have all men to be saved. It says he's a ransom for all. Now just in those scriptures right there, Larry, did you see the word elect? Did you see the word some? Did you see a few that he died for? No, it said all. And if you say all means a few, then you're basically changing not only the meaning, but you're changing the scripture. I'm not through with that list either. God died, tasted death for every man. He's not willing that any should perish. He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world. Whosoever believeth in him, if any man thirst, let him come unto me. Not if any of the elect thirst, let them come unto me. And even Judas himself, which I'm going to get into in just a second, Not sure, I'll just put this list up. Alright. It says Christ died for the ungodly. Yes, that includes Cain. Cain was ungodly. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Did that say some sinners? No. It said sinners. So when you add the word some, you're adding to the Word of God, Larry. All the people of Israel, Hebrews 9, people in hell that died without mercy were sanctified by the blood of Jesus. People that trod and underfoot the Son of God, the blood of the covenant sanctified them. Even the lay Odyssey in church, it said, that were blind and naked, it said washed us in our sins. And so, again, going back to Romans 5, Larry, I want you to see and I want the viewing audience to make sure that you don't forget Romans 5 because this is one of the greatest defenses of the fact that God died for your sins. Every man sins. You cannot, Larry, and Larry did not answer this, he did not respond to the fact that all men through Adam, that all men through Adam have sinned and death passed upon all men. He didn't address the fact that the phrase all men was used. And let's go to the next verse. He didn't address this fact that judgment came upon all men and that this same all men was said to receive the free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ. He did not address that. And that, my friends, is, like I said, definitive proof that the word all men, the phrase all men, applied not only to Adam and every man through Adam, But every man that believes in Jesus Christ can be saved. And every man has that opportunity, not just the elect. All right. Thank you, Bob. All right. Steve has brought up some more of the same type of argument that he gave in the first speech. But I did say something that I found was really fascinating there at the beginning. He says, all the people in the Old Testament, a lot of these dead, wicked guys, put their faith in the knowledge that God was coming. And maybe you had a messiah or something like that, they put their faith And all these people knew that God would be coming, is the exact words I was writing down as he was saying it. And this is patently, biblically ridiculous. I've written a book called Unpopular Bible Doctrines, and I give all the verses for all these different doctrines that men just hate to deal with. But things like this, I've got a section here on the heathen or lost. And I give you all the Bible verses from everywhere, from Old Testament, New Testament, on why the heathen are lost. And the heathen are lost because they could care less about the true and living God of the Bible. They think it's all false and philony. They'd rather worship Baal, like those guys in 1 Kings chapter 18, when they went up against Elijah on Mount Carmel. And of course, Elijah took on 400 false prophets of Baal and another 450 from Ashtar or whatever it was. There's 850 of them, and he put them all to death at the end. But the thing is, when you read the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, you find that these heathen out there aren't interested in a true and living God or anything he has to say. They want to believe in their false images and graven images. build astral poles and everything else, which God is always telling his people to destroy, cast down, stone people of death that are following these false religions and things of that nature. So we don't find what he's talking about at all there, about they knew. So it makes it impossible for Jesus to die for people like that since they were reprobate. to begin with. And all this is in my book, Unpopular Bible Doctrines. I've also done a multi-series on that with Bob L. Ross. If you'd like more information on that, I'd be glad to provide that information. We also have newsletters on different topics that are free for anyone that wants to get on. You know, this was on the testimony of the eternal Godhead, the Trinity. We got an analysis of the Oneness Pentecostals here. People that are into King James-only-ism, we can deal with that. And all kinds of video catalogs. So these are all free for anyone to contact our ministry. But anyway, getting back to this. So all I can say is this is clearly refuted in Romans chapter 1. Just read Romans chapter 1 and it'll show you that thinking themselves wise, they became fools. They worshiped creeping things. They didn't want to acknowledge the true and living God. They went after every false way. And what did it say near the end of Romans chapter 1? God gave them over to a reprobate mind. So we're not even dealing with people that are interested in things, let alone people that were dead millenniums before Jesus even came along. And Paul's writing to the Romans here anyway. So anyway, all those points there are totally in balance, as well as the word all. Once again, I answered all this in show number one. I gave you the scriptural references in show number one of this debate. So go back and check that when it comes to the word all. The writer is talking about all types of people, classes. I think in Galatians, where it says that there's neither male nor female. Bond or free, we're all one in Christ. He's talking about different types of people, not every last one. All you have to do is read the Bible to know that he can't be talking about a lot of these reprobates. But on 2 Peter 3, 9, concerning the word world, maybe I'll get into this in some detail when I have more time later in this discussion. But Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1 through 6, easily refutes the stuff about the ungodly and sinners, because it says in Ephesians 2 that we were dead in our sins and trespasses. Even when we were dead and our transgressions made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, not by works. But anyway, when it talks about the ungodly and sinners, we were all that way before we got born again and saved. So all that argumentation is fallacious as well. I'm going to now give my third affirmative, my third proof. that God died for the sins of the whole world, meaning every man. And briefly, to respond to Larry's somewhat roundabout argument, no, I wasn't teaching that everybody knew that God was coming in the flesh. I was teaching that the Bible taught that God was coming in the flesh in the Old Testament, and that if people knew their Old Testament, they would know that fact. That's all I was saying, Larry. I wasn't teaching that every heathen knew that. I'm teaching that the Bible taught that in the Old Testament. All right. Now, if y'all remember from a previous hour here, I brought up the fact that because Scripture says, you know, for instance, in 1 John 3, 16, that God laid down his life for us, and the Calvinists will jump on that word us and say, see, see, that only means the elect, us. Christ only died for us, the elect, not everyone, but us, as Larry would say. But see, that argument falls to the ground when you see some other scriptures that say the same thing, and you'll see what I'm talking about here. For instance, Galatians 2.20. Let's take a look at that for a second. Galatians 2.20. I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live. Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me." Now, my friends, listen to this. Paul said that Christ gave himself for me. Paul was saying that Christ gave himself for me. Now, does that mean because he said Christ laid down his life for me that Christ only laid down his life for Paul? Well, you see, if you believe like Calvinists do, you would have to believe that Christ only laid down His life for Paul, because it obviously said that Christ laid down His life for me. And Larry would say, see, it said me, not everyone, just me. Not everyone, just me. That's what he kept saying over and over. But it would be asinine to look at this verse and say Christ died for no one but Paul. But didn't it just say that? Didn't it just say that He gave Himself for me? See, here's my point. Yes, it did say he gave himself for me, but it didn't say me only. It didn't say I'm the only one Christ died for. But see, Larry and the rest like him are going to have to say, well, it said he laid it down for me, so I guess that's all who Christ died for. Because see, my friends, he uses the same argument that Christ died for us, not everyone. us only not everyone it didn't say us only larry it said christ laid down his life for us it didn't say us only let me give you another example did jesus die for just one person well maybe he did if you're a calvinist because it says in first corinthians 8 11 it says The weak brother perished for whom Christ died. He said, and through thy knowledge shall thy, should be thy weak brother, or thee, I think. The weak brother perished for whom Christ died. Now that verse said Christ died for Paul's weak brother. Is that the only person Christ died for? Well, again, if you're Calvinist and you're using the same logic, well, he died for us and not everyone. You see, he died for his people, but not everyone. Well, this verse says he died for his weak brother. So, Larry, did he die just for his weak brother? Did he die just for Paul? Of course not. Larry's not going to say that he died just for Paul, but Larry has to say that to keep, to be consistent with his own doctrine, because his own doctrine teaches that when you see the word us, when you see the word his people, that means only us. only his people and what I'm showing you my friends is that it doesn't just mean only because if it did mean just only us or only his people then it would mean only his brother that Christ died for and it would mean only only Christ dying for Paul only Christ dying for Paul who gave himself for me who gave himself for me Christ didn't just die for Paul Christ didn't just die for his weak brother. Christ died for every man, not just for us only, because this didn't say me only. And in order to keep his doctrine, he would have to agree that Christ died for one person. All right. Larry Wessel will make his third reply. Thank you, Bob. All right. He's bringing up Galatians chapter 2, verse 20. You know, basically, anyone that looked at The reference there has a Bible at home. You can see Paul is giving his testimony there, talking about himself. And when we think about Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus in Acts chapter 9, we find that, once again, here's Christ himself appearing to Paul on the road. And God does something special for Paul that he doesn't do for just anybody in a general sense, like Steve's trying to affirm in this debate. does as he wills in all the armies of the heavens and the earth, as Nebuchadnezzar mentioned in Daniel chapter 4, verse 35, and I've already mentioned that passage before. But God does whatsoever he wants to do. He's got the power. He's almighty. And so God wanted to save Paul right there. So he appeared to him on the road to Damascus as he's going to Damascus to try to kill the Christians and enslave them, bring them back to Jerusalem or whatever he was trying to do there. So God doesn't treat everybody the same. It's not an equal opportunity. God's not a union master, where he's getting management to treat everybody the same. God doesn't do it that way. He does it the way he wants to do it. If he wants to save Paul and leave Caiaphas over here in his sin, then so be it. The high priest Caiaphas, he's going to stay in his unbelief. But over here, Paul, who killed Stephen in Acts chapter 7, he's going to save him. And that's God's choice. And that's why when we're looking at Galatians 2.20, as Steve mentioned here, it's ridiculous because context, context, context makes all the difference in the world. In fact, I'd like to ask Steve this question. Did Jesus give his life a ransom for all according to Matthew 20, verse 28, Mark 10, verse 45, or for many? See, just taking context of other scriptures in with this Galatians 2.20 he's bringing up shows that Paul is not saying that Jesus only died for him and him alone. He's got to understand, Paul's talking about himself in this case, that Jesus actually died for him in a meaningful, personal way. And we find from this question, did Jesus give his life a ransom for all or for many? And there's a difference between those two words. We get a clear answer to what's going on here. Also, I'd like to ask Steve another question. Did Jesus die for both the sheep and the goats? If so, are not all their sins paid for, including the sin of unbelief? Is not Jesus the good shepherd in John chapter 10 and Matthew 25? So did Jesus die for all their sins? And if He did, why aren't the goats saved? If He's died for every sin, including unbelief, how come the goats aren't saved like the sheep are, according to Jesus? Also, why does Jesus say, few will be saved? In Luke chapter 13, verses 22 through 28. And even when people cry out to Him, He will still not open the door He has shut in their face. In fact, Jesus relates a similar situation of a shut door in Matthew 25 verses 1 through 13 where you have the parable of the ten virgins. Why doesn't God open the door to these people even though they are calling on him to let them in? Matthew chapter 7 verses 21 through 23 also ties into this about the people who yelled to Jesus, Lord, Lord. And yet Jesus is going to say, depart from me, I never knew you. So we have a different attitude by God and by Jesus to different people. I'd like to mention, too, on this thing, world. If you look at Genesis 41-57, and all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn because that the famine was so sore in all the lands. John 15-18, if the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. Now, he's trying to make John 3-16, and God so loved the world, Like it always means every last person in the world. But as you look at these verses and many more, Luke 2, 1-3, Acts 2-5, and many others, there's no way the word world can mean every last man, woman, and child. You have to take everything in context. And in fact, in John 3-16, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus at night, and the Jews all thought that they were the only ones saved. And Jesus explained, no, it's going to be not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well. Anyway, go with the scripture, not opinions. All right, we have Steve McCaleb now with his fourth affirmative. All right, not to spend too much more time, but Larry, I already told you the scripture. He said, show me the scripture where it says he was a ransom for all. That was his words. Show me the scripture where it says he was a ransom for all. Well, my goodness, it said that exactly in 1 Timothy 2, 6. It says, who gave himself, I hope you're listening, Larry, who gave himself a ransom for all. Yes, he also said he was a ransom for many, but he also said he's a ransom for all. And that shows you that many means all, Larry, okay? Now, Larry, I also asked you to show me You talked about this word world and how it doesn't mean everyone. I said show me one instance in the book of John or any books of John because we were dealing with scriptures about John 3.16 and 1 John 2.2 where it talks about world. How did John, you know, you talk about context. I'm asking for that context right now. Have you looked through the book of John and the epistles of John and looked at every time the word world occurred where John wrote his epistles and the gospel of John? I told you he wrote the word world 80 times in the Gospel of John, and he used it about 15 times in his epistles. Not one time did John use the word world to mean elect. Not one time did John use the word world to mean anybody but the entire world. All right? Now, on to my fourth and final. Well, this might be my final. Maybe I have one more here. Fourth affirmative. And this is going to be a doozy here, because I don't know how he's going to get out of this one. I know Larry most likely, I'm pretty sure, that he doesn't believe Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Jesus. I don't believe that Larry thinks that Judas was a saved man. So Larry, I'm asking you, was Judas Iscariot, was he one of the elect, a saved saint of God? Was he one of the elect, a saved saint of God? I want you to answer that question. And when you answer that question, know, as you probably will, hopefully, because the scriptures do say that Judas killed himself and went to his own place, and that was speaking of hell. But look what it says about Judas. Now keep in mind, my listening audience, that Judas was one of the twelve apostles, one of the twelve. And when Jesus sat down at that Last Supper, as it's called, look what he said. Let me ask this question here. It says, wasn't Jesus speaking to all 12 disciples, including Judas? I'm asking you this, Larry. Was he speaking to Judas when he said, and he took bread and gave thanks and break it and gave unto them? And then he said, this cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Now, I'm asking you, Larry, was he talking to Judas in that passage or not? Because he told the apostles, this cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you. the twelve apostles and remember Judas was one of those twelve and he said this blood shed for you now my friends that is the heart of this whole teaching here that Christ's blood was shed not just for some people but for even people like Judas Iscariot who we know was a false apostle and I can show you proof of this proof Well, first off, let me just tell you this here. In Luke chapter 22, it says, in verse 14 through 20, I want you to go back and look at this passage. Luke 22, 14 through 20. It says, when the hour was come, Jesus, it says, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him, and He said unto them, He said unto them, and if you skip a few verses, it says, This is my body which is given for you. this do in remembrance of me likewise also the cup after supper saying this cup is the new testament in my blood which is shed for you judas the 12 apostles he didn't just say it to the 11 apostles larry he said it to all 12 because it says that he sat down and the 12 apostles with him and that includes judas i know you believe that And he said unto them, this cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Jesus Christ's blood was shed for Judas Iscariot. And the scripture says that Judas Iscariot went to his own place, and it even said that he was possessed by the devil, and he died an unbeliever. I'd like you to explain how Jesus shed his blood for Judas Iscariot. Now, Larry Wessels will have the fourth rebuttal. All right. Once again, he brings up this ransom for all and ransom for many. Obviously, we have to take everything in context. I've already brought it up in the first two hours of the debate, giving you the scripture references. We find that Jesus died for the elect. He died for his church. He died for his sheep. And when you get this over and over again throughout the scripture and you get the same context in the Old Testament where God chose the Israelites, they were the chosen people. What Moses tells us is in Deuteronomy chapter 7, for instance, why the Jews were the chosen people and not everybody else. God explains it to them. Well, you were chosen not because you were more in number than anybody. In fact, you were the fewest. You were chosen because I loved you. God gives Moses the answer there in Deuteronomy and that he would keep his covenant with Abraham in his seed. So basically you're given why that God chose the Israelites there and you get the same flow through history where God's still choosing just a few some and he's coming for his elect, and just because he finds one word there that says all, he tries to then make all those other passages. Old Testament, New Testament, doesn't matter. He wants to make them all into the word all. It means every last man, woman, and child who ever lived, including Cain and every wicked guy that ever lived out there that God cursed. and it makes no sense at all when you read it in context with the other passages of scripture. He brings up the Gospel of John talking about the word world and says you won't find a word world and it always means what he's saying it means in John 3 16 but he's wrong again. John chapter 15 verse 18 it says if the world hate you ye know that it hated me before it hated you. So he does use the word world in the Gospel of John Unlike what you know, despite what Steve said a minute ago Jesus does use the word and he's the one speaking and The word world doesn't mean every last man woman and child like he's trying to argue it means because I've been in this world And I can tell you there's a lot of people out there. They don't even know who I am They don't know me enough to even hate me So he can't be talking about everybody, not even here in John 15, 18. You also notice that he didn't answer hardly any of the questions I asked him a while ago. He just kind of sloughed them off. Now you ask about, was Judas elect or a saved man? Obviously not. Jesus himself said in John 6, 70, haven't I chosen you 12? And one of you is a devil. He chose Judas on purpose. Now Steve did allude to the fact that he was demon possessed because at that very table where he's talking about at the Last Supper there, Jesus is in total command of the situation. He even tells Judas, what you must do, do quickly. And then the devil comes into him and he went out into the darkness. So Judas is fulfilling the plan of God. He was never a saved man. And when Jesus is talking about the covenant, he already knew who it was that was going to betray him. So when he's talking there at the table, he's not applying that to Judas. He already said he was a devil. So, just because he's sitting at the table doesn't mean it applies to him. He already knew he's going to have the devil come and demon possess him and go right out to betray him. So, all that's ridiculous. I was mentioning before about the word world, 2 Peter 2, verse 5, And spare not the old world, but save Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly. We have a situation where you have a world there and God is judging that particular world. You have a qualification. World does not always mean every last man, woman, and child as Noah's flood in this case clearly shows. Let's look at Revelation chapter 13 verse 3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed and all the world wondered after the beast. Now All the world wondered after the beast. Does that mean every last man, woman, and child? Not if you read all of Revelation and take everything into context. That's the problem with people like this that are saying, oh, John 3.16 means this, and you've got to believe it my way no matter what, or all these other passages. What it comes down to is context, taking everything as a total, and coming up with a conclusion on the hermeneutic. Okay, now we're down to the five-minute interaction between the two debaters, so have at it, fellas. Well, I like this. I like this point that was, we're talking about the word world and where Jesus himself said in the high priestly prayer in John chapter 17, I pray not for the world. And he's talking, in fact, you get the whole nature of the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity in there is he's talking to the Father in the nature of the Godhead showing a distinction between him and the Father. But anyway, John 17 and following. So Jesus himself is saying he's not praying for the Father, but to them that thou has given me. which goes back to what he was saying already and I've already quoted in this debate in John chapter 6 that Jesus says you cannot come to me unless my father draws you. You can't believe unless you're born again like in John chapter 3 verses 3-8 when he's talking to Nicodemus by night which is where that famous passage is in John 3-16. So you can't believe until you're born again? That's ridiculous, Larry. You believe with the Word of God as it's preached, the Holy Spirit, just like in my case. I already gave you how I... You do everything backwards, Larry. The Scriptures say, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. You say that you can't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ until you're saved. You say the exact opposite of Scripture. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. You're misrepresenting him. I'm not saying what you're saying. Because we teach that the new birth involves the Word and the Spirit bringing a man to faith and there's no time or distinction as far as chronology is concerned. Yeah, and I would totally agree with that, because we've been into a lot of theological debates with other people. This is a debate among Calvinists themselves, and we don't stand for the distinction that you're born again before you ever believe. We believe it's all chronological at one time. There's many Calvinists that believe that, and there's many different kinds of Calvinists. I understand that issue, too. And so when Larry makes statements like, you know, believers, you can't come unto Christ until He makes you come, then basically he's teaching that you don't believe in Christ until Christ makes you believe. Until in his word means unless. You cannot come to Christ unless God draws you. That's what I've been saying all along. In fact, that brings up a point. I already gave you my own personal testimony from May 16th, 1981, when in accompanying with the word of what I was reading, 2 Timothy chapter 3, verses 1 through 4 and following, a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit came upon me. And I had much the same kind of experience as Paul did in Acts chapter 9, when the scales came off his eyes. What I'd like to ask you is when you got born again in the spirit, what were you doing? What day was it? What year was it? What was your experience on the day you were actually saved and came to Christ by the power, supernatural power of the Holy Spirit? No problem. I was sitting in my car listening to a song on the radio, Larry, and it was, uh, uh, uh, what can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus, that famous hymn. And I was listening to that hymn. And previously, you know, I had believed that water baptism played a part of my salvation, that some other false elements played a part of my salvation. And when I came to believe that nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ paid for my sins, I sat there in that car on that summer day in July of 1986 and came to the realization that it was not my works, but it was Christ, what He did for me that saved my soul. that it wasn't my baptism, my doing this, my doing that, anything but my believing in what He did. You're saying that God did something in your life, as much as what I'm saying. You're saying the Holy Spirit came upon you, and at that point, in association with the music you're listening to or the Word of God, You became a believer. Yeah, Larry, let me say this. In other words, you're admitting what I say. I'm saying God did something special for you that he didn't do to somebody else. He didn't tell me. He didn't impress upon my heart that, Steve, nothing can wash away your sins but the blood of Jesus. And Steve, He didn't tell me that, well, Steve, you're only one of the few that that blood stands for. No one's talking about that. We're talking about the power of God. We're not talking about some of this doctrine here. No, this is related to our debate. Nothing but the blood of Jesus, that paid for my sins. And He didn't have to tell me that it was just me and a few other people. It paid for my sins. What we're talking about here is the sovereign act of God on your behalf from your own experience you just related, which would prove my point in this debate that God did something for you that he hasn't done for most people in the world. No, he paid the debt for every man. He washed every man's hands. Then why didn't he do this for them? Because they didn't receive it. They didn't receive it. That's right. But they didn't get the power to receive it. I had to receive it, Larry. I had to receive what he did. I had to receive. That's the difference. He gets five minutes now. Well, in my closing, I want to use this time to ask Larry some more because I like this interaction. So Larry feel free in my closing to answer my questions. OK. This is not just my time. I'm going to share this with you because I would like you to answer these questions. First Timothy 4 10 says Christ is the savior of all men. OK. Quote Christ. It says quote the savior of all men. Now you say the exact opposite Larry. You say that Jesus is not the savior of all men. Is that correct. I thought I already answered this before. Answer it again then, please. Okay, then you'll have to let me read it because I've read it before, I believe, and I'll just read it again. The chart's up on the screen. Did you understand my question? Of course. You're asking about 1 Timothy 4.10. I've got prepared material on this. Is He the Savior of all men or not? The text in 1 Timothy 4.10 does not say that God wants to save, but that He actually saves. He is actually the Savior, in some sense, of all men. Also, resisting the divine will, in the absolute sense, is impossible. Likewise, it is impossible for God's foreknowledge to be limited, even voluntarily or by man's faith. Otherwise, God would not be God. Acts 13, 48. Okay, Larry, I don't want you to read a commentary. Okay, but people can see the chart up there. You ask, let me have your time. Well, I guess, and I'd like you to use that time to answer very briefly. But I've got a chart on this question, so I'm going to use my material. I'm not interested in men's commentaries. I'm interested in what you personally believe. That's what I believe. I want your yay or nay. I don't want you reading some men's words. I want your yay or nay. Now, the second point of order, and I'm stopping Steve's time just to hear a bit. Steve, you're in the affirmative now. It's up to you to affirm what you believe. I'm in the closing, and I can say whatever I want in closing. You're the savior of all men. I disagree, Bob. I'm in my closing. You don't agree he's the savior of all men, do you? I'm in the closing, and I can make any points I want during closing. Oh, OK. Well, go ahead. Right? Forget it. Is that correct? Go ahead. Isn't that correct? I can make any points I want during closing. Go ahead. I'm not affirming anything. Go ahead, you're wasting your time. Scripture says Christ is a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2, 2. And not, he says he's a propitiation for the sins of the whole world. You say, Larry, the exact opposite, that he is not the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Is that true, yes or no? The whole world means Jews and Gentiles. Whoever's actually born again and a believer is part of that word considered world. He said the whole world meant Jews and Gentiles, and that was from 1 John 2. And Larry, I asked you this previously, show me and John where John used the word world to mean Jews and Gentiles. You can't. You can't. In 1 John, in 1 John... Now you're changing it to 1 John. Before you said John, I refuted that one. Well, let's go to the context. You always talk about context. The context of that he's the propitiation for the sins of the whole world is 1 John 2. Now I'm asking you, show me anywhere in 1 John, 2 John, or 3 John where he used the word world to mean just Gentiles. or Jews and Gentiles? That's a cop-out question because you know John, 1st John, 2nd John and 3rd John are very short books. There's not that much text there. I mean, I could come up with any argument like that on some other word where I knew in that same little passage or area, book, there was hardly any other word that was mentioned because there's a little text there. What's the scripture in the middle? So that doesn't prove anything. Well, you can go to the Gospel of John and you can't find the word world meaning Gentiles only. Okay? You can't. Well, I already went to John 5.17 a while ago. I'm going to ask you the same question from a different scripture, Larry. Scripture says that Christ, in Hebrews chapter 2, tasted death for every man. But you say, the exact opposite again. You're always on the opposite side of scripture, Larry. The scripture says that he tasted death for every man. You say, no, he didn't taste death for every man because then you're going to start changing the meaning of every man again. I just take everything in context. I just take it. There's other verses that say something completely alien to what you're trying to argue. So you have to take those verses in context with these verses. You can't just force a meaning into a verse and say that's how you end up with Jehovah's Witness Doctrine or Mormon Doctrine or Oneness Pentecostal Doctrine. No, that's how you end up with your doctrine. That's how you end up with your doctrine because the way you end up with your doctrine is you take very commonly used words in Scripture like all, every, any man, whosoever, and you change every single one of them to mean the opposite of what they say in Scripture. You change every man to mean some men. You change all men to mean a few men. You change whosoever to mean whosoever of the elect. You change the whole world to mean some of the world. You make the scripture say the exact opposite of what it says. I know because God doesn't do the same thing for everybody. And that's the context. I got my five minutes here, and I'll do my closing denial of his proposition. Once again, the error he's making is he's trying to make this salvation as an offering. When it's not an offering, it's something that's actually accomplished by God himself for the salvation of his people. God, and what we have to remember about all this, in fact I wasn't going to even mention this until just now if I can find my paperwork, but what we have in operation here is the members of the Trinity. You've got to remember the nature of God is, there's within the nature of the one God, there are three eternally distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And these three persons of the Trinity operate in the salvation of sinners. As we've already looked at in many places, particularly John chapter 6, the Father, the first person of the Trinity, is essential in choosing who it is that's going to come to Christ. No man comes to the Father except by me, Jesus said, but then the only ones that come to Jesus are the ones drawn by the Father. Now, as we look at this activity of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, what is eternal life? It's knowing God, John 17, 3, 1 John 5, 13-21, Romans 8, 12-17. It is having a personal relationship with the creator of the universe through the entwelling Holy Spirit. It's not a religious ritual or activity because God hates religion like that. What it comes down to is the active work of the members of the Trinity, as I just mentioned. Each of the three persons in the Blessed Trinity is concerned with the salvation of the elect. With the Father, it is predestination. With the Son, it's propitiation, shedding His blood for the sins of those He died for. With the Spirit, it is regeneration through His power so that they will actually rise from being dead from their sins and trespasses and have a living faith in Christ. The Father chose us. The Son died for us. The Spirit quickens us. The Father was concerned about us. The Son shed His blood for us. The Spirit performs His work within us. What the One does is eternal. What the Other did was external. What the Spirit does is internal. The Father purposed our new birth. The Son has made it possible by His travail, the new birth, but it is the Spirit who affects the new birth. Born of the Spirit, John 3, 6. Therefore God sends His Holy Spirit to hell-deserving sinners who are then led to actually believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their risen Savior. Philippians chapter 2, 13, Acts 13, Acts chapter 10, 44 through 46 and so forth. The verses are right there for you to see. God does not have to save anybody. But what is truly amazing is that He does save a few. For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22, 14. Thus, demonstrating His mercy and grace, when the Holy Spirit does come upon a lost sinner, the sinner finally has the power to repent of his sins and begin leading a life that is acceptable and pleasing to God. The sinner goes from hating God to loving Him. He is not the same person he used to be, 2 Corinthians 5, 17. This new born-again Christian will now practice righteousness and good works, not because he is trying to earn brownie points with God or get saved, but because he loves Jesus and simply wants to please Him. This is the everlasting mark of the true Christian. The work of the three eternally distinct persons of the one true God is essential for anyone's salvation. Without the work of the Trinity, no one can be saved and thus reconciled to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. What is salvation? The Father chose us, Ephesians 1, 3-6. The Son purchased us by His blood, Ephesians 1, 7. The Holy Spirit sealed us, Ephesians 1, 13-14. Blessed God, three in one. And, of course, more on that in Luke 1, 35, in the Incarnation, Matthew 3, 16-17, in the Baptism of Jesus, and Matthew 28, 19, in the Great Commission. If you would like a free newsletter on this or other subjects, just give us a call at Christian Answers The phone number is area code 512-218-8022. That's 512-218-8022. Or you could email us at cdebater at aol.com. That's cdebater at aol.com. Thank you.