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Breaking News All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  9/24/2020
SUNDAY, APR 26, 2020  |  57 comments
Americans losing grip on most basic tenets of Christian faith
As part of an ongoing release of research about the worldviews of Americans, new data show that just over half hold a biblically-informed view of God, a 22% drop from 30 years ago.

Longtime researcher George Barna, whose work is now based at the recently-founded Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University, released another installment in his findings that reveal the erosion of the Judeo-Christian worldview in the United States. The new report shows that only 51% of Americans consider God to be "all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect and just creator of the universe who still rules the world today.” In 1991, 73% of Americans believed that to be true.

The latest research from the 12-part American Worldview Inventory also documents that 44% of survey respondents agreed with the idea that when Jesus was on the Earth, in the flesh, He was both fully divine and fully human and therefore ...


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www.christianpost.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 57 user comment(s)
News Item5/2/2020 12:54 PM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
DKH,
From what little I seen in the WEB when I looked, I'd agree with you.

I was wondering if you would mind sharing a Scriptural example of what you were referring to here in your quote.

"I think that a strict majority approach could tend to use readings, that although are majority, are unlikely to be original."

57

News Item5/1/2020 10:10 PM
DKH | the west  Contact via emailFind all comments by DKH
No I don’t. I occasionally reference it but more for informational purposes. There isn’t a lot of majority text translations to choose from but it seems to be a fairly solid one.
56

News Item5/1/2020 9:00 PM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
Concerning the WEB, seems it is derived from The American Standard Version from 1901.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other as I've never personally used it.
While I think having a Byzantine text as a source is great, its how the translators handle it that ends up being an issue.
Is that the version you primarily use?
55

News Item5/1/2020 11:12 AM
DKH | the west  Contact via emailFind all comments by DKH
James, what do you think of the WEB translation? It’s based off of a strict majority text, not TR or minority readings.
54

News Item5/1/2020 11:10 AM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
No problem Mike. On BLB.com, the I see the footnote for defense is simply offering different definitions. It says argument or explanation when I click on it. I guess the online version just has more intricate details.

Virus of liberal governors. Ha! We need about 10,000 miles of social distancing from them to be safe. Isn't China about that far from us?
53

News Item5/1/2020 9:00 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
James Thomas wrote:
I see I forgot to finish that sentence.
When you place the cursor over it, there are other suggested words provided or a note concerning the word its by.
Thanks, James. I should have been able to figure that out. I must have been thinking about liberal governors and other viruses! 1Peter3:15 in my NASB has a "a" at sanctify, meaning a footnote. The footnote is "I.e. set apart". So I guess it's just a definition. It doesn't have a footnote for "defense"
52

News Item5/1/2020 4:09 AM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
James Thomas wrote:
You got it.
Essentially you have Scripture translating/validating Scripture.
The higher critics only have what can be referred to as an echo chamber of preconceived and perpetuated thought and processes which are flawed.
That's why words do matter when one does serious bible study because the message can be distorted if tweaking by paraphrases or preferences are in a translation and thankfully God has provided means within Scripture to test out doctrines, thoughts, and even variants.
I've always thought that's what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 2:14-16 in comparing Scripture with Scripture because the same truth is woven through Scripture.
Blessings to you bro!
And blessings to you St James!
51

News Item4/30/2020 9:04 PM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
I see I forgot to finish that sentence.
When you place the cursor over it, there are other suggested words provided or a note concerning the word its by.
50

News Item4/30/2020 9:02 PM
James Thomas. | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas.
Hey Mike,

I believe it stands for foot note. If you look on this link from blue letter bible, I think you will be able to see it.
When you place the cursor over it, there are other suggested words provided or a note concerning the

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1pe/3/1/t_bibles_1154015

Just so you know...
Feel free to butt in to any my conversations anytime you feel the urge too.

49

News Item4/30/2020 7:43 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
James Thomas wrote:
Here's an example of what I'm referring to.
---
NASB 1 Peter 3:15 *but [fn]sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts*, always being ready to make a [fn]defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and [fn]reverence;
---
Hi James, I didn't want to butt in your discussion with John, but I am too curious not to ask. What is [fn]? My NASB doesn't have it.
48

News Item4/30/2020 5:01 PM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
Thanks James, that is a good example. So if the Hebrew is actually correct, and the various translations are correct (the ones you mentioned all agree with each other), then this consensus can be utilised in the translating of 1 Peter 3:15, even to the extent of deciding between mss if they differ in this verse.
Yes, I see now that your point is a great one. And so I am happy to continue to be a TR-Onlyist, and that the higher critics sure do not know what they so boldly talk about.
You got it.

Essentially you have Scripture translating/validating Scripture.

The higher critics only have what can be referred to as an echo chamber of preconceived and perpetuated thought and processes which are flawed.

That's why words do matter when one does serious bible study because the message can be distorted if tweaking by paraphrases or preferences are in a translation and thankfully God has provided means within Scripture to test out doctrines, thoughts, and even variants.

I've always thought that's what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 2:14-16 in comparing Scripture with Scripture because the same truth is woven through Scripture.

Blessings to you bro!

47

News Item4/30/2020 2:48 PM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
Thanks James, that is a good example. So if the Hebrew is actually correct, and the various translations are correct (the ones you mentioned all agree with each other), then this consensus can be utilised in the translating of 1 Peter 3:15, even to the extent of deciding between mss if they differ in this verse.

Ah, I see in your post that there are differences in the streams:

"TR has Lord God, Alexandrian stream has Christ."

Yes, I see now that your point is a great one. And so I am happy to continue to be a TR-Onlyist, and that the higher critics sure do not know what they so boldly talk about.

46

News Item4/30/2020 2:20 PM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
Here's an example of what I'm referring to.

KJV 1 Peter 3:15 *But sanctify the Lord God* in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

NASB 1 Peter 3:15 *but [fn]sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts*, always being ready to make a [fn]defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and [fn]reverence;

Which one is right?

TR has Lord God, Alexandrian stream has Christ.

If you consult Ezek 36:23, which speaks to the same events Peter is declaring, the KJV and even the ESV and NASB all point to "Lord God", not Christ.

Ezek 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, **saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.**

Variant resolved.

45

News Item4/30/2020 11:21 AM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
St James, as far as I can tell, what you propose will not work, and for the following reason.

You are trying to get to grips with Text B, and wish to use Text A to assist in finding out how Text B ought to be translated. But you are assuming that Text A is already translated correctly, and therefore can be used to make a comparison. But how did you get Text A translated correctly, with nothing to compare it with? You say that you compared it with Text B. But we have not yet translated Text B, and we are depending on Text A for help in translation.

Is that not so? Or have I seriously missed something?

44

News Item4/30/2020 10:44 AM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
"The majority text position is solid and I think mainstream scholarship has sometimes chosen minority readings of passages without substantial merit. But, on the other hand, I think that a strict majority approach could tend to use readings, that although are majority, are unlikely to be original."

John,
Here's one of the problems.

DKH above described the current process of determining what is a correct translation amongst scholars who support MT texts and that being essentially oldest is best. While it sounds viable there are flaws that can be objectively observed within the translation itself. Unfortunately the means of utilizing other Scripture to test out a variant is not within the toolbox of current scholars and therefore a false conclusion usually is the outcome.
Good example of this is Isa. 13:12. See for yourself.

43

News Item4/30/2020 7:58 AM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
The Quiet Christian wrote:
Amen, Brother John! Textual issues are something I am not really up on, but if Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away, those fine details are of importance.
Quiet Brother, you are quite right to remind us all of these words of Jesus, and how importantly he considered the word of God (scripture), even using such to counter all the attacks of the devil after his baptism.

It is noticeable that most modern versions omit the tactics for casting out of certain types of demons, namely by fasting and prayer, which Jesus said was necessary for the casting out of such. So who was it who orchestrated the removal of this weapon of warfare from God's word? And why are so few using such tactics today?

42

News Item4/29/2020 10:55 PM
The Quiet Christian  Find all comments by The Quiet Christian
Amen, Brother John! Textual issues are something I am not really up on, but if Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away, those fine details are of importance.
41

News Item4/29/2020 9:20 AM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
DKH wrote:
As for the TR, I think there are notable textual issues that should be honestly recognized even if they don't warrant switching to a new translation.
Thank you DKH for being refreshingly honest. It is very rare in this misty fogland of the subject of Bible Versions.

You see, most people who want the modern version will say something like, "Well surely the KJV is great, but we really need to read the Bible in the common language of our day."

But if you suggest the revision of the KJV, changing all the archaic words into modern words, they will not be happy with that. Nor will they be happy if you repair the very few blemishes in the KJV.

Why is this? It is because someone has convinced them that the Received Text is not a valid Greek text, and that no Bible should ever be translated from them. Rather, so they are taught, it were better to translate from the Westcott/Hort/Nestle/Aland/United Bible Society Greek texts.

Whereas you, DKH, are notably honest in coming right out with your distrust of the TR, and I commend you for that.

However, it just goes to show how the devil is intricately involved in the subject, as he seeks to demote the value of God's word.

40

News Item4/28/2020 9:10 PM
James Thomas | Fla  Find all comments by James Thomas
DKH,
I see that this is the first time you have taken time post here on SA so welcome to the forum. I also understand the limitations of time so no worries but I will leave you an open invitation if you change your mind.
One thing I've always wondered but never have been able to find a reasonable answer to is, if the Vaticanus and Sinaticus manuscripts were on the shelves of Eusebius or other copies of the MT for that matter (we know he was the benefactor of receiving from Origen his private library which Origin had given to the Christian community in Constantinople) why were the Byzantine texts the only ones faithfully copied for a thousand years up until 1453 when the Turks overran them and exiled those Greek speaking scribes along with their manuscripts as well, to that small town of Geneva?
39

News Item4/28/2020 8:04 PM
DKH | the west  Contact via emailFind all comments by DKH
James, thanks for your thoughtful comments. The majority text position is solid and I think mainstream scholarship has sometimes chosen minority readings of passages without substantial merit. But, on the other hand, I think that a strict majority approach could tend to use readings, that although are majority, are unlikely to be original. If you've studied White I'm sure you're aware of the main arguments in favor of Alexandrian texts. So, although I love the discussion, I don't think I'll take the time to go into it deeply. My life is currently fairly busy.

Like I said, I don't see the issue black and white. I think both styles of textual criticism give a text that carries the message God is trying to give us. I read out of Alexandrian translations more simply because of preference in translation styles.

Currently Muslims are celebrating Ramadan. During this time they recite the Quran in Arabic even though many of them don't even know the language because they believe the words themselves are inspired.
I believe God inspired and preserved the biblical message (not individual words). And, unlike the Muslims, we can read this message through a translation. And although not perfect, it still carries the inspired message.

Thanks again James. I've enjoyed the discussion.

38
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