Hundreds Accuse Independent Baptist Pastors of Abuse
One hundred and sixty-eight church leaders were accused or convicted of committing sexual crimes against children, the investigation found. At least 45 of the alleged abusers continued in ministry after accusations came to the attention of church authorities or law enforcement.
Compounding the problem is the legal statute of limitations. For many alleged offenders, the statutes on the crimes have expired.
Many of the allegations involve men whose misconduct has long been suspected in the independent fundamental Baptist community. But most of their victims have not publicly come forward, on the record, until now. Even pastors have for the first time â in interviews with the Star-Telegram â acknowledged they moved alleged abusers out of their churches rather than call law enforcement....
Jim, 20 years ago I had to go to court, and an Independent Baptist preacher was the only man who tried to help me. A few years later, Hurricane Katrina hit our area, and another Independent Baptist preacher put a new roof, completely free of charge, on the house I live in. Fast forward a few more years, and my wife needs a new car. Still another Independent Baptist preacher flies to a distant city at his own expense, picks up the car for her, and drives it back. A few years later, some unscrupulous contractors did some work on my roof and left it with a serious leak. A fourth Independent Baptist preacher fixed it free of charge. Last winter my wifeâs car broke down two hours away from home, and I called a fifth Independent Baptist preacher who sent a member of his church to repair her car, including a hundred dollars worth of parts, again free of charge. Also last winter, some of our pipes froze and our Independent Baptist pastor and his Independent Baptist brother came and replaced them for free. Not long after that, the same Independent Baptist pastor came and worked, free of charge, on some damaged wiring and plumbing at our house, neglecting his own house while a tropical storm approached. Donât give me any more anecdotal crappola about a handful of alleged rogue Independent
Bruce Gerencser wrote: Jack Hyles, his son-in-law Jack Schaap, and Davis Hyles all have one thing in common. Each of them was accused of sexual misconduct (along with sundry other scandals). Schaap, as mentioned above, is now in prison. Both Hyleses escaped punishment for their debauchery and perverse behavior. This has led many people to assume that Jack Hyles is as innocent as a child, pure as the driven snow. Few people are willing to defend David Hylesâ life of debauchery and licentiousness, but these defenders of All Things Hyles do suggest that he has turned over a new leaf and has been forgiven of his sins (crimes?) by God.
Most of the Hyles-related scandals are ancient history. Why then, are people still searching for information on these men? Good question. One reason is that there are a number of Fundamentalists who still consider Jack Hyles to be one of the greatest preachers since the Apostle Paul....
excerpt from, "The Scandalous Life of Jack Hyles and Why it Still Matters"
The greatness of Jack Hyles is in dispute for example,
I think that if we looked hard enough, we would find problems with an church. Abusing children is obviously a major crime and hopefully never found in any church, but beyond criminal activity, we find all sorts of troubles and problems. We are not going to find perfection and clearly some churches and pastors are better than others. Digging thru Google to find embarrassing examples of IFB churches to attempt to prove a point only reflects what we all already know - this is post-Fall earth and sins will happen. Those situations, while embarrassing, are not reflective of the whole.
I guess this is payback for not supporting your denominational choice, Jim?
The darker interpretation offers a flock comprised of sheep shaped and groomed to be fleeced. Shorn. Plucked. Left bald and bare... .... The issue there is not religious faith at the church once the nation's 14th largest with 20,000 members. It's moral depravity. Again....
...Is this a church victimized by criminals, a church that mindlessly enabled crimes without protecting members or was it a full partner in crime?...
excerpt from, "Church can't escape Schaap's moral stench"
[ https://tinyurl.com/yakkenll ]
The other article is by former pastor and he only used, once too often admittedly, a rather vulgar term. What I pointed out he's telling the truth about though.
QC, we are not looking for perfection, we are looking for churches that are better than the Romish one though. Unfortunately some IFBs are no better than Catholic or charismatic churches. The argument has been made that First Baptist of Hammond, at least in the past, was certainly a poor excuse for a Protestant church!
https://tinyurl.com/y9qy3b4b (What Will the IFB Church Movement Do About Sexual Abuse Allegations?)
Paradigm: "A pattern, a way of doing something, especially (now) a pattern of thought, a system of beliefs, a conceptual framework."
I will recommend the article for its description of a structure of some Independent fundamentalist Baptist Churches. I really hope it isn't that commonâ I've read about it before. I was surprised to see it in the article above. Unfortunately, I have seen one real life example of it as well. đ
The article also gives quite a bit of information on David Schaap
I would suggest the article for those reasons, to go too far out of the way, won't pay because he says he is aunti-Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, and he should be believed!
Like most atheists he likes to show that he knows some four letter words, and while his comments are probably mostly correct you can always find some that are way off the mark.
A very good comment, QC. If I live three more months I will be 65 years old. In my threescore and almost five years, I have had two people come to my house (not counting Mormons and False Jehovahâs Witnesses) to inquirre about the state of my soul. I didnât know either of these people, but both were Independent Baptists. If not for them, I could join David in saying that âNo man cared for my soul.â Perhaps there are other groups besides Independent Baptists who follow Paulâs example of witnessing door to door (Acts 20:20-21), but I donât know of any. As an Indian chief once said when asked what he thought about a certain preacher, âPlenty thunder. No rain.â
Once upon a time, we found ourselves in need of help. The IFB church stepped in. A few years later, my wife's aunt found herself suddenly alone in a strange state in a distant region of the country. Struggling, she walked into an IFB church. She accepted Christ and they became her family.
Anyone looking for perfection needs to look elsewhere, but my family and I have consistently found people who care so much about the word of God that they stand on it and attempt to live by it. They are "safe," in that they will neevr espouse a heretical notion or an ounce of liberalism. They aren't perfect yet, we do disagree sometimes over what God is doing, and I'm not so right in my own eyes either. I just wish we all had the same zeal.
Bruce Gerencser wrote: In the post that follows, I deliberately paint with a broad brush. If what I write doesnât apply to your church or your pastor, then feel free to ignore my words. Be aware that I am no friend of the IFB church movement.... [Wow ]
...Answerable to no one but God â who never says a word to them â IFB churches are often controlled by authoritarian pastors who rule their churches with a rod of iron. Believing that they are divinely called to be pastors and commanded in Scripture to rule over their churches, these so-called men of God far too often become a law unto themselves. Their churches become their possessions, their ministries given to them by God to lead, direct, and control. It is not uncommon, much like in the business world, for IFB pastors to be the CEOs of their churches for decades, and when they retire, to pass their kingdoms on to their sons. Their churches become the family business....
Dr. Tim wrote: And inasmuch as my own comments in this forum seem to neither edify nor instruct, but merely to chafe and offend, I think the time is ripe for me to try to find a composium of like-minded brethren with whom to converse.
No chaffing here Doc,.....and The only way someone is offended is if they permit themselves to be.
And BTW, You have instructed us on the habitation of Thrice 0...otherwise we would have had no idea he lived in a shopping cart.
Thanks, UPS. The excerpt from the Cloud article in question was not about Jack Hyles, but about âmanyâ (or, as Cloud expressed it, âtoo manyâ) Independent Baptist pastors who supposedly exhibit this fault or that. It contained vague generalizations that are designed to influence without informingâwhich is the same tactic used by the Democratic liberals with whom Jim is so enamored. I have read many edifying articles by David Cloud, but this particular excerpt, taken, no doubt, out of context, did little to edify and much to offend. And inasmuch as my own comments in this forum seem to neither edify nor instruct, but merely to chafe and offend, I think the time is ripe for me to try to find a composium of like-minded brethren with whom to converse.
Dr. Tim wrote: One manâs opinion with not a shred of supporting documentation, statistical evidence, or corroboration, Jim. Just because David Cloud, or Charles Spurgeon or, for that matter, Jack Hyles, has said something doesnât make it true. Why donât you go visit about 6,000 IFB churches, see for yourself what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong, and get back with us? In the meantime, quit trying to set yourself up as some sort of expert on IFB polity and practice. Ninety percent of what you and the authors of the original article that kicked off this thread have said is nothing more than unsubstantiated rumors and allegations. Please read I Timothy 2:19 and Exodus 23:1-2.
What David Cloud has posted on Jack Hyles is far from one man's opinion. It is a summary of an investigation and includes the testimony of dozens of people including his own daughter about the goings on at FBC in Hammond.
Where Jim is wrong, as you have pointed out, is to paint with a broad brush. Take heart, not many people here put a lot of credence into what Jim post here.
One manâs opinion with not a shred of supporting documentation, statistical evidence, or corroboration, Jim. Just because David Cloud, or Charles Spurgeon or, for that matter, Jack Hyles, has said something doesnât make it true. Why donât you go visit about 6,000 IFB churches, see for yourself what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong, and get back with us? In the meantime, quit trying to set yourself up as some sort of expert on IFB polity and practice. Ninety percent of what you and the authors of the original article that kicked off this thread have said is nothing more than unsubstantiated rumors and allegations. Please read I Timothy 2:19 and Exodus 23:1-2.
David Cloud wrote: ...it is not surprising to find a fundamental Baptist pastor borrowing from the Charismatic prosperity message. This fall it will have been 30 years since I became a fundamental Baptist preacher, and I know something about what is going on in our midst. Too many independent Baptist preachers are lazy Bible students. Too many have nursed the saints with topical milk and beat them with hobby horses and pet peeves and tickled their ears with wild stories instead of grounding them in the meat of God's Word and discipling them in the spiritual life of Christ. Too many are willfully uneducated about the heresies and compromises of our day. They don't know what is going on and they don't want to know and they rebuke any man who tries to inform them. Too many have bought into the positive-only philosophy and refuse to plainly identify error and false teachers. Therefore they and their people are susceptible to being deceived by those very errors. Too many are looking for something that "works," some pragmatic methodology that will build a larger church and bring in more offerings and are not exercising keen spiritual and biblical discernment about such things....
I did not bring up the issue of politics or Presidents at all--UPS did. I think I have stuck fairly well too the issue. Considering it was Hyles son that was one of the main topics of the article I think I have stuck very closely to though Hyle family problem.
Here is yet another example:
https://tinyurl.com/yd3tkyfg (Hyles' daughter apologizes for 'nefarious actions' of church)
Jim, you asked, âHow is a president related to a church movement?â How is a president related to everything under the sun? I donât think thereâs ever been a topic that you commented on that you didnât eventually get around to blasting Donald J. Trump. Why are you so obsessed with him? Is it jealousy? Ah, thatâs it. Youâre jealous because he fell in love with that little Korean guy and not with you. I know unrequited love is a hard pill to swallow, but with time and much prayer you can overcome it, Jiminy. Just hang in there and try not to take it so hard.
UPS, how is a president related to a church movement? Whatever the percentage of bad ones of the ifb there are oh, there are too many in fact First Baptist, something of a misnomer, is one of the largest churches in the United States, which is a good reason to read some of the testimonials. Now if Obama was a pastor I would condemn him. But far as personal attributes he is better than the one that's in DC
And I have certainly said there's good IFBs like the one I messed the URL up for!
This pastor was an associate pastor at the church I attended. I know he's well-qualified. So there might be 90% or more good IFBs but there still are too many bad ones. And First Baptist Church of Hammond-may-still be one of the stinkers.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Timothy, so you think Pastor Cloud is a liar? I think there are good IFBs in Hammond. Just one example. I don't want to leave the impression that there isn't some good churches in the Hammond Indiana area, for example: https://cfc-church.net/ (Christian Fellowship Church) Is the First Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana still a situation? I hope not but if they are following the Hyles / Shaap tradition they certainly are!
Obviously the good Doc isn't saying there are no IFB churches with problems with its leadership and their sins. He is saying it is but a small fraction of the overall movement. You constantly get onto others here for their condemnation of President Obama insisting that he only did a few things wrong. Are you carrying a double standard as to what you expect of others and what you expect of yourself?
Pastor David Cloud wrote: I have the responsibility before God to judge preachers and their message by the Word of God (1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thess. 5:21; Acts 17:11), and I intend to continue to do that in spite of the bitterness that is poured out toward me by those who blindly follow men. Your attitude of unquestioning loyalty to a man is not Scriptural, but is cultic. No preacher is above being judged by the Word of God. No preacher has the authority to demand unquestioning loyalty. A godly preacher, in fact, does not desire unquestioning loyalty. Like Paul, any godly preacher is pleased when people judge him and his message and his ministry by God's Word (Acts 17:11). A preacher's only authority is the Bible, and when he strays from that, he has no authority whatsoever.
The Bible describes a man like Jack Hyles, and his name was Diotrephes....
THERE ARE MANY DIOTREPHES IN THE INDEPENDENT BAPTIST MOVEMENT, BUT JACK HYLES IS KING OF THEM ALL. Any preacher that would allow his people to wear "100% Hyles" buttons (as Hyles did some years back) is a Diotrephes. My friends, beware of the spirit of Diotrephes. Don't be caught up in the cultic clutches of such men....