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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  7/18/2018
TUESDAY, JUL 10, 2018  |  186 comments
Duterte vows to resign if anybody can prove God exists

The Philippine president, who recently sparked outrage for calling God stupid, has courted new controversy in his largely Roman Catholic country by saying he will resign if anybody can prove that God exists.

President Rodrigo Duterte, who has had a thorny relationship with the church, questioned anew in a speech late Friday some of the basic tenets of the Catholic faith, including the concept of original sin, which he said taints even innocent infants and can only be removed through baptism in a church for a fee.

"Where is the logic of God there?" Duterte asked in a speech at the opening of a science and technology event in southern Davao city. ...


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News Item7/18/18 4:57 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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John, you are not taking into account the nature of a man that is IN ADAM, namely, guilty and dead already. We need look into this nature of the sinner. Hence,

Ephesians 2:3 KJV
(3)  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Note the word "all". It means all. Note the words "were by nature the children of wrath"? That means that all coming into the world had a nature which was opposed to God and therefore were under his wrath. "Even as others" means each and every Christian was just as much a child of wrath as Dr Westcott and the rest of the human race.

Ephesians 2:1 KJV
(1)  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

These verses show clearly how God saves sinners. The very first thing that God has to do, is bring the sinner to life, because he is dead and unresponsive. It is the **sinner's fault** he is dead, so it is an act of mercy on God's part to bring him to life. And God has mercy on whom he will have mercy; that is, not on all men.

This is very simple theology, clear and plain.

It is all about quickening.

186

News Item7/18/18 4:29 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK wrote:
John, maybe you could show me where in that statement I have said that God gives to sinners eternal life before they believe?
BTW you seriously make a mistake when you imagine that God is forever hoping that sinners will believe from an unregenerated heart. That is why faith itself must needs be a gift from God which he gives to the sinner. There is no effort involved, it is as simple as saying, "Thank you, Lord."
Wherever you find effort involved in gospel missions (altar calls etc.) it is because men are determined to do something towards their salvation.
Oh, okay, so we are good then. You believe the unregenerate sinner can believe? They are not quickened to life prior to believing or anything silly like that?

Oh wait..you just said God must make someone believe? So God gives them faith, meaning they have eternal life and then they believe according to the faith God has given them? None of that is scriptural, but okay! What I mean is, there are no verses that actually say God overwhelmed sinners so that they must believe. The description of faith in scripture is always the preaching of the gospel and people repenting and believing. There is no insertion of preaching, then God made them believe it, so they had faith.

185

News Item7/18/18 2:49 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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John for JESUS wrote:
John UK...
You are the one saying that men can't believe unless God first gives them eternal life.

Eg.

"Now I see that you are still wanting to reverse the order in Acts 13:48, so that your belief of election being based upon man's response holds. But what you are getting wrong is your understanding of what "ordained to eternal life" means. You think it is another way of saying "saved". Wrong. It is to do with God's ordaining of future events; he decided to save certain ones, even before he made the world. "Faith" comes before salvation, and "ordaining to eternal life" comes before faith. (John UK)

John, maybe you could show me where in that statement I have said that God gives to sinners eternal life before they believe?

BTW you seriously make a mistake when you imagine that God is forever hoping that sinners will believe from an unregenerated heart. That is why faith itself must needs be a gift from God which he gives to the sinner. There is no effort involved, it is as simple as saying, "Thank you, Lord."

Wherever you find effort involved in gospel missions (altar calls etc.) it is because men are determined to do something towards their salvation.

184

News Item7/17/18 7:59 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

""You are the one saying that men can't believe unless God first gives them eternal life."

OH REALLY??!! Care to prove that?!"

Well...you did ask!

"Now I see that you are still wanting to reverse the order in Acts 13:48, so that your belief of election being based upon man's response holds. But what you are getting wrong is your understanding of what "ordained to eternal life" means. You think it is another way of saying "saved". Wrong. It is to do with God's ordaining of future events; he decided to save certain ones, even before he made the world. "Faith" comes before salvation, and "ordaining to eternal life" comes before faith.

I never denied that Calvinists call on people to repent and believe. What I have said is, they don't believe people can believe so they wait for God to give the people a burning in the bossom so as to then do the right thing and believe. There are variations and contradictions within Calvinist thought, but that is it in a nutshell. Does this person with knowledge of Christ atomatically do the right thing and have faith while in their dead state or are they made alive proir to faith?

183

News Item7/17/18 5:51 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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John, I'm sorry to have to say this, but you keep coming out with more huffin' and puffin' nonsense and lies, which amounts to subterfuge and strawman deceptions.

Here is what you said earlier:

"You are the one saying that men can't believe unless God first gives them eternal life."

OH REALLY??!! Care to prove that?!

And then you come out with:

"What do you suppose Peter said? Nothing you can do? To bad, so sad? No!"

What are you doing here, John? Are you trying to pretend that Calvinists do not call upon men to repent and believe the gospel? Now that I have shown you that Mr Calvin not only exhorted men to repent and believe the gospel but encouraged the saints to go on repenting and believing, you forget the lies you just told about him, and now censure him for getting men to repent too much.

Why is this? Well simply, it is your futile attempt to continually attack the preacher of the truth, lest you slip and have to say, "Whoops, I will now have to discard all that I've thought true for so long, and finally submit myself to the truth of God in his word."

John, you are a classic example of someone with an Adamic nature, dead in sins and unable to raise yourself to life in Christ, dependent wholly on God saving you, if HE chooses.

182

News Item7/17/18 5:26 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

He gets the order of baptism and forgiveness completely wrong and has nothing to say about preaching the gospel. Rather we need our sins forgiven just as much during the course of our life, than at our first entrance into the Church. Calvin just did not get it.

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

Peter said to repent and then be baptized for the forgiveness of sins! Calvin just flippantly disregards that!

But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Hebrews 10:12

We already have our sins forgiven one time so there isn't a need to keep asking for forgiveness like at the first time we were saved.

181

News Item7/17/18 4:16 PM
Just a Guy | Mississippi  Find all comments by Just a Guy
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Adriel writes:
It's amazing how Duterte commands such extensive theological debate.

Crazy...

They definitely win the "most comments on a thread" award.

180

News Item7/17/18 3:21 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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"Be baptized every one of you." Although in the text and order of the words, baptism doth here go before remission of sins, yet doth it follow it in order, because it is nothing else but a sealing of those good things which we have by Christ that they may be established in our consciences; therefore, after that Peter had intreated of repentance, he calleth the Jews unto the hope of grace and salvation; and, therefore, Luke well afterwards, in Paul’s sermon, joineth faith and repentance together in the same sense, wherein he putteth forgiveness of sins in this place, and that for good considerations; for the hope of salvation consisteth in the free imputation of righteousness; and we are counted just, freely before God, when he forgiveth us our sins. And as I said before, that the doctrine of repentance hath a daily use in the Church so must we think of the forgiveness of sins, that the same is continually offered unto us; and surely it is no less necessary for us during the whole course of our life, than at our first entrance into the Church." John Calvin on Acts 2:38

John, this is but a part of the comment by Calvin, but it shows his belief in the necessary commands of the gospel, not only initially but also continually, lifelong.

179

News Item7/17/18 3:21 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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Lurker...

It's hardly a strawman as I will point out to John UK. What were they cut to the heart by?

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

Even Isaiah 55:11 shows that!

John UK...

Please don't blame anyone else! You are the one saying that men can't believe unless God first gives them eternal life. That the preaching of the gospel isn't good enough alone. Right?

178

News Item7/17/18 2:35 PM
Adriel  Find all comments by Adriel
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It's amazing how Duterte commands such extensive theological debate.
177

News Item7/17/18 2:30 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
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John for JESUS wrote:
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Acts 2:37
What do you suppose Peter said? Nothing you can do? To bad, so sad?
Not wanting to interrupt or get involved but you're using a strawman based on hyper-Calvinism.

What you overlooked is this: "they were cut to the heart..." This is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing them of their sin and need of redemption. But that same work of the HS didn't always produce the same results:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

But it always produces God's will:

Is 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

J4J, you need to determine what produced the pricks in the hearts of the Jews at Pentecost that led to their repentance. And why didn't Stephen's preaching produce the same results. Was Peter a better preacher than Stephen or did it have anything to do with the audience? Or maybe Peter's audience was smarter. Or maybe one was sheep and the other goats.

176

News Item7/17/18 2:15 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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John for JESUS wrote:
John UK...
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Acts 2:37
What do you suppose Peter said? Nothing you can do? To bad, so sad? No!
John, now once again you have given an example of a huffin' and puffin' statement designed to falsely portray the gospel preached by those who believe the doctrines of grace. You won't find one sermon here on SA where the preacher says such a thing. So why do you do it?

I tell you why.

You have been brainwashed by huffin' puffin' preachers who falsely portray Calvinism, in order to keep a hold of their adherents, lest they see the truth and depart.

If you like, I will dig out some Calvin commentary and prove it to you. Then you can realise the preachers have been spinning you a yarn, and thusly you can take your leave of them and find preachers who preach the truth.

Even hyper-Calvinists (who are not genuinely Calvinistic), if they are confronted by sinners who ask them what they must do to be saved, will give them the same answer Peter gave, because they are witnessing the grace of God in these sinners.

Thank you.

175

News Item7/17/18 1:50 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

Excuse me for my multiple post. I was in a dead zone and lost my signal, then I drove off and I guess it registered three enters?

I agree with you and scripture on this. Nobody can save themselves in the sense of earning it or working for it. However, we can believe. So we can get ourselves saved through believing on Jesus who is the One who saves us. There is nothing more needed than the preaching of the gospel so that people may believe. Look at the day of Pentecost! The Apostles preached and then:

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Acts 2:37

What do you suppose Peter said? Nothing you can do? To bad, so sad? No!

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
Acts 2:38‭-‬40

You're right that nobody can save themselves in one sense, but there is something we are able t

174

News Item7/17/18 1:19 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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John,

Please re-read, and reconsider your answer. Thank you.

Mark 10:26-27 KJV
(26) And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
(27) And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Who can be saved? With men, it is not possible. Something more is needed than being enlightened by the light from birth.

Let's see now, every man has some light given them from birth, yet when Jesu's disciples asked him who could possibly be saved, he said that with men it is impossible.

If God requires repentance and faith in order to be saved, and this is yet impossible with men, how then are sinners ever saved?

Jesus again gives the answer: "With God, all things are possible."

"And you hath he quickened, which were dead in trespasses and sins."

So the answer to your question is that in a sinner's natural state - DEAD - he cannot believe nor prepare himself to receive God's grace. So God must do that work of enlightenment and quickening, whereby the sinner is wrought upon by the Spirit, with such power as to change the sinner's rebellious will, and grant him faith in Christ, upon which he will be sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

173

News Item7/17/18 12:59 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

There are none who seek after Jesus. How can they if they haven't heard about Him? That's why the gospel is so important and why it is said beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!

My point wasn't that who saves, but who can believe? You say we are saved by faith while denying people the ability to do so!

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:30‭-‬31

Can you imagine if they told the jailer there is nothing you can do, sorry!?

172

News Item7/17/18 12:58 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

There are none who seek after Jesus. How can they if they haven't heard about Him? That's why the gospel is so important and why it is said beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!

My point wasn't that who saves, but who can believe? You say we are saved by faith while denying people the ability to do so!

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:30‭-‬31

Can you imagine if they told the jailer there is nothing you can do, sorry!?

171

News Item7/17/18 12:58 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

There are none who seek after Jesus. How can they if they haven't heard about Him? That's why the gospel is so important and why it is said beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!

My point wasn't that who saves, but who can believe? You say we are saved by faith while denying people the ability to do so!

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:30‭-‬31

Can you imagine if they told the jailer there is nothing you can do, sorry!?

170

News Item7/17/18 12:20 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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John for JESUS wrote:
John UK...
According to what you have said, you can't believe so you might as well say flying to Pluto saves or some other impossiblity!
The vast majority of people in the world are not saved, and they are not saved because they are dead in sins and do not therefore seek after God.

But here is some good news for you.

Mark 10:26-27 KJV
(26)  And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
(27)  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Who can be saved? With men, it is not possible. Something more is needed than being enlightened by the light from birth.

Oh, the love that drew salvation's plan!

God loved certain sinners with an everlasting love and covenanted with his Son to save them, even when they were dead in sin and ungodly. He would save them and make them new creatures in Christ. He would require them to repent of their sins and trust in Christ in order to be saved, but even those things he would work in their hearts without compulsion, but make them willing in the day of his power, so that all would be saved.

169

News Item7/17/18 11:58 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
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John UK...

According to what you have said, you can't believe so you might as well say flying to Pluto saves or some other impossiblity!

168

News Item7/17/18 11:40 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
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Unprofitable Servant to Penny wrote:
You need to stop defining dispensationalism and premillennialism by what is said about them in websites that despise their beliefs. Whether you like it or not a vast majority of those who hold such views are your brethren in Christ
Exactly the same thing happens with Calvinism and a-millenialism. Folks get a little bit of huffin' and puffin' preaching against the doctrines of grace, and imagine it is sufficient to build an argument against it; but when they come out with their argument, those who believe the doctrines of grace say, "Eh, what?"

So I empathise with dispensational brethren who are misrepresented, even though I wholeheartedly disagree with the doctrines they hold to. I would go so far as to say I find the doctrines distasteful, and in some cases downright dangerous. However, there will be born again believers found in all sorts of churches and beliefs, so long as the foundation doctrines are adhered to.

Faith in Christ saves, and it is all a matter of what we must believe about Christ in order to be saved. The deity of Christ and his penal substitution at Calvary and resurrection are three musts, obviously.

John, please take note.

167
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