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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  7/23/2019
SUNDAY, MAY 20, 2018  |  457 comments
Jesus Is No Longer the Only Way for Many American Christians?

Just over two months ago, as winter landed its final blows of snow in New York City, Michael A. Walrond Jr. of Harlem's 10,000-member First Corinthian Baptist Church landed an ideological blow of his own in traditional Christendom.

Walrond, who was named "One of the Lord's Foot Soldiers" by Newsweek magazine, told his congregants that the belief that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell is "insanity."

"There was a time when you would see people in the pulpit say, 'well, if you don't believe in Jesus you going to Hell. That's insanity in many ways because that is not what Jesus even believes," he said in a viral clip posted to Facebook.

People take many paths to God, he argued, noting that he personally celebrates the paths others take in finding Him — even if that path does not involve faith in Jesus. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 457 user comment(s)
News Item6/1/18 5:28 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
It is well worthwhile meditating on this text, which is after all, the very words of Jesus the Son of God.

John 12:47 KJV
(47)  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

457

News Item6/1/18 3:39 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Perhaps it's because we see God's litmus test of a real Christian is simpler and shorter than others. As I recall, there is but one thing God will not pardon and that is rejection of His Spirit.
If I have the time I may send a follow-up email tonight.
Blessings
Yes indeed!
456

News Item5/31/18 11:33 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Well yes, I'm sure that reasoning from the scriptures has led by far the majority to the same conclusion.
Brother, we always seem to get to this point on this subject, and it is a marvellous thing that we never come to blows or have a lack of respect for each other. The Lord bless thee also.
Perhaps it's because we see God's litmus test of a real Christian is simpler and shorter than others. As I recall, there is but one thing God will not pardon and that is rejection of His Spirit.

If I have the time I may send a follow-up email tonight.

Blessings

455

News Item5/31/18 10:51 AM
James Thomas | FLA  Find all comments by James Thomas
Still Been Watching wrote:
Y'know, something came to me earlier today concerning this contentious issue. For those who believe that babies are innocent and not under the curse of Adam, then why aren't you pro-choice and lobbying to have all babies killed? If they get a free pass, then aren't we being cruel raising them to the age of accountability? Something to think about, hmm?
Using your perspective which to me is like looking through my cracked phone screen...

My question to you is...what work of the law is any baby guilty of?
The answer is none!

Gal 3:10
10¶For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

454

News Item5/31/18 6:53 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Still Been Watching wrote:
Y'know, something came to me earlier today concerning this contentious issue. For those who believe that babies are innocent and not under the curse of Adam, then why aren't you pro-choice and lobbying to have all babies killed? If they get a free pass, then aren't we being cruel raising them to the age of accountability? Something to think about, hmm?
Because murder is a sin too.
453

News Item5/31/18 2:33 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
I understand, John.
Using logic and human reasoning would lead most to the same conclusion.
I believe we've gone about as far as we can in this discussion so I thank you once again for a civil discussion.
May God bless you as you serve Him.
Well yes, I'm sure that reasoning from the scriptures has led by far the majority to the same conclusion.

Brother, we always seem to get to this point on this subject, and it is a marvellous thing that we never come to blows or have a lack of respect for each other. The Lord bless thee also.

452

News Item5/30/18 11:33 PM
Still Been Watching  Find all comments by Still Been Watching
Y'know, something came to me earlier today concerning this contentious issue. For those who believe that babies are innocent and not under the curse of Adam, then why aren't you pro-choice and lobbying to have all babies killed? If they get a free pass, then aren't we being cruel raising them to the age of accountability? Something to think about, hmm?
451

News Item5/30/18 9:46 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
I honestly think to say that part of me is in Christ and part is in Adam, well it seems nonsensical, bro.
I understand, John.

Using logic and human reasoning would lead most to the same conclusion.

I believe we've gone about as far as we can in this discussion so I thank you once again for a civil discussion.

May God bless you as you serve Him.

450

News Item5/30/18 5:47 PM
James Thomas | FLA  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
Would depend on what we regard as "the flesh".
...biblical "flesh"
Psalms 78:39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit.

Psalms 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isa 31:7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which *your own hands* have made unto you for a sin.

Psalms 73:26
My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

Psalm 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence:

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be *written in the earth*, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger *wrote on the ground*

449

News Item5/30/18 4:26 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
penned wrote:
John UK, great links! maybe the word "remnant theology" might make more sense to many who don't know what you mention, even though it is historical and preceeds this dark chapter of scofield protestantism. going back to the Kingdom Ethic would strenghten us for our calling to the lost and the calling to build up one another in the faith! I'll continue to look forward to reading your comments and discussion between you and Lurker!
Amen Penny, remnant theology sounds just fine to me. God always has had a remnant, in all of history, one people of God, all of them redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb. Little wonder he is the centre-piece of heaven, the focal point of all history and all of eternity, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Every time I watch the [URL=http://www.1689federalism.com/]]]Introduction to 1689 Federalism[/URL] I learn some new thing about how the Almighty has designed to make a people for himself, always by way of covenant. I've seen it about 7 times now, and I realise how big a subject it is, and also how wonderful; it's a real heart-warmer. After decades of struggle with the subject, I am beginning to grasp it, and it is most thrilling and God-exalting.

448

News Item5/30/18 2:18 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
It's no secret that Paul spoke out negatively about the flesh and the body. It's consistent throughout his writings. He calls the body vile, corruptible, mortal and many other negative references. Can anything spoken of that way possible be in Christ?
Hello bro, it would depend on what we regard as "the flesh".

Now if you bought some chicken drumsticks, in the packet you would find some chicken skin covering chicken flesh which is covering chicken bone. And it might be that our biblical "flesh" is just the same.

But I do not think so, and here is my opinion. There is nothing wrong with the human body, Jesus himself had a 100% human body, and he was fine. No, I believe the sinful nature inherited from Adam (Jesus excepted) is located in the heart. And where is the heart located? Between the ears.

Now when it comes to being "in Christ", I believe this is a judicial thing, and unaffected by a corruptible body. God sees us as "in Christ". God sees us as "perfectly righteous". God sees "the mark" on us. God can separate his elect sheep from the goats, no problem.

I honestly think to say that part of me is in Christ and part is in Adam, well it seems nonsensical, bro.

447

News Item5/30/18 1:31 PM
penned  Find all comments by penned
John UK, great links! maybe the word "remnant theology" might make more sense to many who don't know what you mention, even though it is historical and preceeds this dark chapter of scofield protestantism. going back to the Kingdom Ethic would strenghten us for our calling to the lost and the calling to build up one another in the faith! I'll continue to look forward to reading your comments and discussion between you and Lurker!
446

News Item5/30/18 12:28 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Good morning John,

I trust you received my email.

Regarding Federalism; I agree with the concept in its broadest form but likely not with the many tentacles and probably not the way you understand it. I'll explain.

It's no secret that Paul spoke out negatively about the flesh and the body. It's consistent throughout his writings. He calls the body vile, corruptible, mortal and many other negative references. Can anything spoken of that way possible be in Christ?

As born again Christians, our souls are members of Jesus Christ's glorified, immortal, incorruptible body. We are espoused to Him as His future bride. At the same we are to reckon our own mortal, corruptible body dead because it is the seat of our old Adamic nature. Paul said he died daily meaning he died to his own vile body while his soul lived by means of the indwelling Holy Spirit in hope of the resurrection of his body to incorruption, immortality, eternal life.

I don't know how that explanation affects Federalism but it sets the proper framework for the text you quoted above.

445

News Item5/30/18 5:31 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

For any who desire to die for their own sins, not for the sins of another (such as Adam) what you are doing is introducing something of yourself into the equation; and you will therefore have to do that with the work of Christ, adding to it, or replacing it completely, so that you yourself are resurrected because of what you have done, not what someone else (Jesus Christ) has done on your behalf, as your federal head.

Effectively, it means a salvation by works, and Jesus has done nothing for you in a positive way, just as Adam has done nothing against you in a negative way.

Because the two are put together in this text in this way, what is true of the one is true of the other, and you cannot have the resurrection of the body without recognising Christ as federal head; and if Christ is federal head, Adam too is federal head with regard to death and sin.

To go deeper into this, 1689federalism.com

444

News Item5/29/18 6:51 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Now bro, if you introduce an age of understanding into the mix, then think about this. If you are right, the murder mills are sending more people into heaven than if they had been born alive and lived at least 15 years. If there are, say, 100 people age 25, how many do you think are elect? Twenty, maybe less? So 80 end in hell. But if they had all been aborted, they would all have gone to heaven, all 100? Not good theology.
I only mentioned age from conception to an age of comprehending sin in the context of the rest of the paragraph. Those older would be guilty of their own sin and could be justly judged guilty when the "books are opened" (Rev 20:12).

I've said about all I'm comfortable saying on an open forum so check your email in the morning.

443

News Item5/29/18 5:24 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Perhaps this evening I'll have time to offer a different explanation of Adam's transgression that meets all the smell tests except tradition.
I'll look in first thing tomorrow bro, looking forward to it.

In the meantime, back to scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV
(21)  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22)  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The way we view what Christ has done on behalf of many, must surely be the same view of what Adam has done on behalf of all?

Christ obeyed God and can make over his benefits to whoever believes in him.

Adam disobeyed God and God makes over the curse, still ongoing (childbirth, thistles, snakes, hard working etc.) including death, the whole world over, with no exceptions.

Now bro, if you introduce an age of understanding into the mix, then think about this. If you are right, the murder mills are sending more people into heaven than if they had been born alive and lived at least 15 years. If there are, say, 100 people age 25, how many do you think are elect? Twenty, maybe less? So 80 end in hell. But if they had all been aborted, they would all have gone to heaven, all 100? Not good theology.

442

News Item5/29/18 4:47 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
That surprises me bro. Are you sure you went to the right place?
WCF Chapter VII
2. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.
I thought this was the covenant you disagreed with as not biblical.
Even though the wording is different the concept is the same. You quoted Gen 2:16-17 as the terms of the covenant and I'm pretty sure the Presbys would agree. Maybe not.

For reasons I mentioned earlier, those covenant terms would still need to be extant till the end of days for the transgression to be imputed by God and anyone justly judged guilty of Adam's transgression. And of course, I'm talking about anyone from conception to an age of understanding God's laws and a knowledge of sin.

But for you, my dear Baptist brother, I'll stop using the term "covenant of works".

Perhaps this evening I'll have time to offer a different explanation of Adam's transgression that meets all the smell tests except tradition.

441

News Item5/29/18 3:59 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
I didn't know you guys were such Dave Hunt fans. That's ironic!
440

News Item5/29/18 3:43 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
I was familiar with the two statements but read them again to refresh myself. Doesn't really change my thinking at all.
That surprises me bro. Are you sure you went to the right place?

WCF Chapter VII

2. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

I thought this was the covenant you disagreed with as not biblical.

"I'm going to stick to poking at the so called covenant of works as that is the man made framework which makes original sin stand. I'll say it again. This so called covenant of works is an unbiblical fabrication."

The 1689 Baptist confession omits this, and does not refer to a covenant of works for Adam.

So, as far as I can tell, you can poke away all you want at the "covenant of works" in the garden; it is not a Baptist belief, and not mine either.

439

News Item5/29/18 3:01 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Hello bro, before we proceed any further, I think it would be helpful if you would have a look at the differences between the WCF and the 1689 Baptist concerning this "covenant of works" you keep mentioning. I assure you that you will find it most interesting and enlightening. Scroll down to [URL=http://www.proginosko.com/docs/wcf_lbcf.html]]]Chapter 7 Paragraph 2[/URL]
I would be interested to see if that makes any difference in your thinking.
Just popped in for a few to cool off. Mowing the lawn today and it's 91 degrees.

I was familiar with the two statements but read them again to refresh myself. Doesn't really change my thinking at all.

I have come to think of the Garden of Eden not as a literal place but rather a covenant state of existence. The terms garden of God and Eden are mentioned a few times in the prophets and reference the Promised Land or more specifically, Jerusalem.

Adam was at peace with God and vice versa before he ate and for that my position is that Adam was in the covenant of peace aka the Zion covenant which is fulfilled by keeping Deut 6:5. After he ate he was kicked out into a cursed land and the curse points to the Sinai covenant. There is no life under the curse, the wrath of the law... only death.

438
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