Lutheran Pilgrims Travel to Germany on Reformation Anniversary
As the American pilgrims approached Wartburg Castle, they let their imagination rewind five centuries to the night when Martin Luther was ‚Äúkidnapped‚ÄĚ by masked horsemen and hustled deep into the forest.
The German monk-turned-reformer‚Äôs life was in danger after his writings were deemed heretical by Roman Catholic leaders and he gave his defiant ‚ÄúHere I stand‚ÄĚ speech at the Diet of Worms, so a prince who was concerned about his safety ordered the abduction.
The pilgrims walked up the steep hill to the castle, where Luther spent 10 months from 1521 to 1522 in hiding, and one of them huffed, ‚ÄúNo wonder they never found him!‚ÄĚ...
Connor7 wrote: 1.) The natural man cannot do that which is pleasing to God (Romans 8:8) faith is pleasing to God, therefore man cannot have faith in God
2.) I already showed you... Hebrews you tried to use the word "all" to say that Jesus atoned for everyone,
3.) Read my answer in its context, I know everyone throughout all time and space has sinned, don't twist my words.
4.) #4, as far as I know, the "Book it" Pizza Hut club is no longer around, so I don't care if you've read more books than me. J4J, I'm done talking to you for thus: 1.) You're mocking me and others.
1) The natural man is without the gospel, so how can he believe? You are assuming that faith is pleasing to God. If a person doesn't have Jesus in them, nothing they do pleases God. Even their good works are as filthy rags.
2) That's what the verse says. Don't proclaim me wrong, show me. Show me where Jesus didn't die for everyone. It's not universalism because Jesus didn't pay the price for individual sins. He just died and was worthy to be raised again because of His sinlessness.
3) You said the Pharisees and probably others perfectly obeyed the law.
4) You're the one that brought up investing in books. You assumed I hadn't read any before.
1.) The natural man cannot do that which is pleasing to God (Romans 8:8) faith is pleasing to God, therefore man cannot have faith in God, for to have faith in God is pleasing to God, therefore the natural man cannot have faith, the Spirit must regenerate him, grant him faith and repentance, and he will come to the acknowledging of the truth.
2.) I already showed you, Galatians you took out of context, Hebrews you tried to use the word "all" to say that Jesus atoned for everyone, even the anti-christ, I showed you how that is universalism, how it affects the nature and attributes of God.
3.) Read my answer in its context, I know everyone throughout all time and space has sinned, don't twist my words.
4.) #1, you're begging the question.
#2, I'm not making the claim that I've read more books than you, you made that claim.
#3, stop putting words in my mouth.
#4, as far as I know, the "Book it" Pizza Hut club is no longer around, so I don't care if you've read more books than me.
Connor7 wrote: 1.) But J4J, faith is pleasing to God, therefore the natural man cannot have faith. 2.) I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that point, because you've twisted a bunch of verses. 3.) I beg to differ, the Pharisees did it pretty well, and various people have probably done it. 4.) Okay, that's arrogant, you don't even know me, yet you're willing to make that claim?
1) The natural man won't believe if they haven't heard, but God in His mercy, has given us the Gospels so that hearing, they may believe. Scripture only teaches that without faith, it is impossible to please God. It doesn't mean God is pleased by faith.
3) Probably? You don't even know? All have sinned.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
4) I said probably, so that means more than likely, not definitely. Is it arrogant of you to think I haven't read more than you?
1.) But J4J, faith is pleasing to God, therefore the natural man cannot have faith. The only way is that the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner, grants the sinner faith and repentance, it is only by the Spirit that a sinner can have faith, repentance, and salvation. Therefore it is God who raises the spiritually dead, not man.
2.) I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that point, because you've twisted a bunch of verses.
3.) I beg to differ, the Pharisees did it pretty well, and various people have probably done it.
4.) Okay, that's arrogant, you don't even know me, yet you're willing to make that claim? And it doesn't show that you've read a lot of books, you may have read 1,000+ books, but your logic is shoddy, your exegesis is lacking, your argumentation is...childish. You've come up with heresy, your not consistent in theology, etc. Your not reading books from IFB are you? Because 97% of books from IFB are by and large:
2.) Logically changed.
3.) Theologically void.
4.) And not really intellectually or theologically stimulating.
Connor7 wrote: 1.) Your theology has a problem with Hebrews 11:6, the natural man cannot do that which is pleasing to God, faith is pleasing to God therefore man cannot, by himself, have faith in God.
2.) I showed you how you were taking scripture out of context to fit your theology.
3.) What does it say in Hebrews 11? All these died in faith. Faith has always been a necessity for salvation. And I understand the difference between faith and the works of the law
4.) Have you ever thought to invest in reading books?
1) Scripture doesn't teach any contradictions between Hebrews 11:6 and being saved by faith. Nobody can do anything pleasing to God, even Christians, if it weren't for Jesus indwelling them through the Holy Spirit. We are saved by faith. Meaning, you will be saved because of your faith. Faith proceeds salvation! People believe through preaching.
2) No, you accused me of twisting scripture instead of facing the fact that you were wrong.
3) I never once said faith wasn't necessary for salvation. It is different than obeying the mosaic law. Sinful people won't obey the law, but they can be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
4) I've probably read more books than you. The most important being the Bible.
John for Jesus wrote: Okay John UK, I'll let that soak in!
Well obviously John you read the posts of others through the lens you've been given by anti-Reformed preachers who have bombarded you with strawmen concerning the Christian faith.
How does that work?
The false preacher starts with a false premise concerning, for example, Calvinism. These false statements are then held up as a "proof" that Calvinism is incorrect, along with mocking laughter, which laughter is designed to make all the hearers realise that if they don't also laugh with the preacher, they too will be laughed at, and because of pride they don't like the idea of that, so they go along with it. None of them check things up, to see if what he said was true, because, after all, he's SUCH a charismatic preacher, how could he ever be wrong. And so the false accusations stick in the mind and formulate the character of the hearers.
Now if ever you want to translate doctrine into action, to check out the doctrine in the real world, instead of the imaginary, I suggest you get out into the real world and talk to real sinners, and see how they respond to the Good News. And then read your Bible to see how it explains their (lack of)positive response.
1.) Your theology has a problem with Hebrews 11:6, the natural man cannot do that which is pleasing to God, faith is pleasing to God therefore man cannot, by himself, have faith in God. Furthermore, since man had a heart of stone, dead in trespasses and sins, and an enemy of God, he cannot, by his nature, love God.
2.) I showed you how you were taking scripture out of context to fit your theology. Theology is to be logical, rational and consistent. And just saying, "Calvinism is wrong" is not argumentation, you didn't even address the issue.
3.) What does it say in Hebrews 11? All these died in faith. Faith has always been a necessity for salvation. And I understand the difference between faith and the works of the law, today we divide the law, the ceremonial law, and the moral law, since Jesus is a sacrifice for the elect, His chosen people (and we can see this before Moses, Noah was chosen by God, Abraham was chosen by God, Jacob was chosen by God, Joseph was chosen by God)
4.) Have you ever thought to invest in reading books? Like a systematic theology book, an introduction to the old/new testament, Hermeneutics, Exegesis, etc.? Because it's clear you need help to rightly divide the wordof truth. J4J, I have been exceedingly patient with you, but you want to mock, r
Connor7 wrote: 1) The Old Testament saints were saved by faith, Romans 4:2-3 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." No one has ever gotten to Heaven by works, read Hebrews 11, "But without faith it is impossible to please God"
2) and J4J, you seem to be taking scripture out of context once again, Galatians has to do with the Galatians who had distorted the gospel.
3) J4J, I don't see the contrast, I see you twisting scripture, misinterpreting scriptures, not taking the whole verse in context, etc.
4) And I have to ask, where do you learn theology from?
1) Okay, no problem with that.
2) Connor7 seems to equate Calvinism with scripture and where scripture doesn't line up with it, Connor7 says the verbatim quotes from the Bible are taken out of context because he can't grasp the fact that Calvinism is wrong.
3) Connor7 then can't tell a difference between faith and works of the law.
4) Then he questions where I learned theology from. The Holy Bible, duh.
David Cloud has a nice resource in this book -addresses the situation in which many believers find themselves in that that there is no strong church in their area. .,deal with the subject under headings: 1. Be sure that you understand the importance of the church. 2. Be careful that you are not looking for a perfect church. 3. Commute to a strong church. 4. Relocate to a place that has a strong church. 5. Attend the best church. 7. Seek to make the church stronger. 8 Be wise in dealing with pastors. 9.Give full attention to your own spiritual life. 10. In some cases, a new church can be established. The tips are very practical and deal with most situations that have come to our attention through the years. 58 pages -- https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/a-mixed-multitude-church.php -- Mixed Multitude Church October 10, 2017 David Cloud, Way of Life
Just reading this today - Cell phone use Social media time $$$ invested All a gauge of true passion. To go w/your "ventriloquist, magic tricks, "etc summary
Hi Connor, and thanks for all the info. IFB's are quite out of my experience, we just don't have them here in the UK, apart from one or two isolated ones trying to make a go of it.
The two main Baptist churches we do have are either "Baptist Union" churches, which are joined together in some way (and ecumenical), yet still retain independent thinking, and these are normally arminist in theology. And the 1689 Baptist churches which are all independent, and hold to the Doctrines of Grace, such as Spurgeon's church and the current Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, pastored by Peter Masters (and all these churches oppose the ecumenical movement).
So when I say independent Baptist, it is these latter ones that I am thinking of.
Apart from a few shining lights, the situation in the UK is dire. Pioneering work really is starting from scratch.
@ John UK, I myself am an Independant Fundamental Baptist (IFB), and doctrinally sound IFB churches are hard to find. There are politics within the churches, "I scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of thing...not in all the churches, but I would say a great majority.
Martin Llyod Jones said, "What is preaching? Logic on fire!" And...there's not a lot of logical preaching, it's hard to find, expository preaching is becoming "popular" but poorly executed.
Chris is right, "Charismatic in flavour" what some people might call "hard preaching" is banging the pulpit quite mercilessly, murdering logic in their argumentation, going on irrelevant rants and committing violence against exegesis, hermanutics, and basic bible interpretation.
I wish more IFB preachers would be more merciful to their pulpits, follow the laws of logic and argumentation, and follow the rules of basic Bible interpretation.
Puppet teams, ventriloquist, magic tricks, youth camps, etc. are quite common. I am sure that a great portion of IFB "evangelist" have never been called by God for such an office.
Christopher, we have the same issue in our family as they are unconverted and swear like drunken sailors. We usually walk away or give a look, some times my husband will make a comment to one of our sons concerning their profanity. But their need is to be raised from their spiritual deadness ( as with your wife) and for that we must always continue in prayer and hope the Lord does not pass them by. Remembering Michelle in prayer, and you also.
There should be plenty of response to your request bro.
Try Ephesians 4:29, but remember this is exhortation to saints not the unconverted. _____________ Hi John, My experience with non-denominational is probably polluted because every one I've been to was disguised, but Charismatic in flavor.
True non-denominational, I would definitely agree, and wouldnt even mind something universal, like, Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, without any denominational attachments. ____________ The great problem there is the word "church", which causes no end of problems. I was speaking to my landlady about that, on this very day.
John, and/or anyone...so, I just addressed my wife's vulgar mouth again, simply saying, "How far you've fallen, Michelle" which began an argument because she sees nothing wrong with herself, spiritually, or any way, really. Narcissism at its very finest. Her responses were, "I like the words I use, I don't see anything wrong with swearing, I like specific words", etc. Keep in mind I'm not talking about "darn", I'm talking heavy duty, strong profanity. I'm mobile right now because I had to walk out, but does anyone know scriptures right off that address profanity/vulgarity? She hasn't done it since, because I about put her in a hospital if I had been just a little more angry, but not that long ago, she actually used God's name along with the eff word in a sentence. I almost lost control because I take God very seriously, but that's an example of the sort of things I mean. I just cant Google right now.
Christopher000 wrote: Did Jesus the Christ found and head the Baptist, non-denominational, Charismatic, Methodist, or whatever faith? You would think so, according to each.
I think the answer, Christopher, would be non-denominational. These have no hierarchy and no interference from outside of the assembly. Examples would be all the independent Baptist churches, and Brethren assemblies. A secondary answer would be evangelical, which descriptive word comes from the greek, which we translate "preach the gospel".
So, the church which Jesus is building has to be an independent, gospel-preaching church, of which HE is the Head.
Is that good enough logic? Or biblically correct?
[note, those who do believe in interference from outside the assembly, also have to believe in clergy/laity and apostolic succession.]
Herein is a big error with Calvinism. Equating faith as some sort of work. The idea that if people could just believe they would somehow earn their salvation by works and God would owe them. So to get around that misunderstanding of scripture, they invent this idea that God must subconsciously make them believe against their will by overwhelming force. However, salvation is by faith, which is separate from the works of the law. Therefore, people may believe and God will show them mercy.