500 years of Reformation: Luther's home town launches anniversary celebrations
Around 4,000 people attended a worship service in the town square, which features statues of Luther and his fellow Reformer Philipp Melanchthon, who also lived and worked in the town.
The service included a contribution from Germany's President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who said the Reformation had influenced Germany's entire history, culture and way of life for centuries and was still doing so today. He said one of its lessons was that that human beings could 'overcome the intolerance and the violence which is committed in the name of religion'.
The President of the Lutheran or Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD), Heinrich Bedford-Strohm, said he wanted people to be inspired by the message of the Reformation and that it was his dream and his hope that sceptics would find faith after the events of the 'Reformation Summer'....
Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV (16)Â The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
God is just, and implements a just justice on the earth, in accordance with his nature. But not all nations accept this, not all governments.
For those worried about Adam's sin imputed:
Jeremiah 16:12 KJV (12)Â And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:
Jeremiah 17:9-10 KJV (9)Â The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (10)Â I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Adam broke one command. We break God's many laws continually from birth, because of our heart. As one said, "The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart".
Unprofitable Servant wrote: 1) 1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. v 45 The first man Adam ... the last Adam. Your argument against Adam's headship, J4J, is with God. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
2) We sin because we were are born with a sinful nature, Psalm 51:5, are by nature children of wrath Ephesians 2:3
3) Did you have to teach your children, J4J, to lie? Was it necessary to have lessons on disobedience?
1) Don't know if you are still around, but none of those verses say that Adam had Federal Headship. That's a problem, it is inexcusable to claim something like that and qoute verses as proof that don't teach that. It's a big difference to say Adam brought sin into the world as opposed to saying we are guilty of his sin.
2) We are born into a sinful world and become children of wrath because of our own sin.
3) No and at some point they became guilty of sin.
It is my desire to have iron sharpen iron. If anyone doesn't like discussing the Bible with someone who may disagree with them, please don't.
James Thomas wrote: I must say I have not studied Ezek 18 in conjunction with Jer. 31. But due to our interaction I can now see the cross reference of the two and each should shed light on the other with this proverb as part of the topic. The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? Seems if we understand the proverb more light will be shed on Ezek. 18. When you define the terms then the story comes to life.
That's great that you are seeing more light, James. Light is a wonderful thing.
Psalms 36:9 KJV (9)Â For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
Comparison of scripture is so important.
With regard to the doctrine of federalism, with its two heads (Adam and Christ), our bro Unprofitable Servant has added the other texts in the NT which shine brightly on Romans 5. With these I am most content, and I see the effects of the fall as being catastrophic for the human race.
But praise be to God that he has chosen to be in Christ (out of Adam's cursed race) a vast multitude of sinners, all redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.
And this, because of the covenant between Father and Son, progressively revealed in the OT, fully in the NT.
Most excellent comments and observations concerning the sin nature as well as John from Atlanta's trying to occupy others with endless comments. I for one am convinced he comes here to lure the elect into endless debates and push his own brand of religion. He has no desire to learn or listen, only to push an agenda. His beliefs are nothing short of heresy. Only God can open the unregenerate mind to receive His truth...may He do so with John from Atlanta.
That being said, another discussion involving J4J, going nowhere, occupying 17 pages and over 300 comments and none of us have convinced J4J to change his thinking. One wonders if he just stirs the pot to see how many people he can get to react to his statements.
My dear brother Lurker may disagree but I agree that unborn Levi Abraham's great great grandson, paid tithes to Melchisedec being in the loins of Abraham
Heb 7:9,10 And if I may say so, Levi, also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham. For he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
If that is how God views things, then certainly see how that when Adam sinned, we sinned in him as our head.
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. v 45 The first man Adam ... the last Adam. Your argument against Adam's headship, J4J, is with God.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
We sin because we were are born with a sinful nature, Psalm 51:5, are by nature children of wrath Ephesians 2:3
"Genesis 8:21 declares "the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth' Jonathan Edwards remarks, "The word translated youth , signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence."
Did you have to teach your children, J4J, to lie? Was it necessary to have lessons on disobedience?
My original intention of commenting was due to your wonderful comment you had made prior as I will paste here.
"You see now why it is so important to use the whole of the Bible for ascertaining doctrine?" is true indeed."
I must say I have not studied Ezek 18 in conjunction with Jer. 31. But due to our interaction I can now see the cross reference of the two and each should shed light on the other with this proverb as part of the topic.
The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Seems if we understand the proverb more light will be shed on Ezek. 18. When you define the terms then the story comes to life.
Sour grapes are found here.
Deut 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
The fathers seem to be mentioned earlier in Deut. 32
The LORD GOD says there will be no use for the proverb anymore. Why? Perhaps its due to what happens in Jer 31:33.
Ezek 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Bless you Bro. and I can see how Jer 31:3 would be one of your favorites. I like it as well...thank you for the reminder of it.
James Thomas wrote: Keeping to my original point, I believe we should not ignore places in Scripture that "appear" to contradict our understanding. Instead we should open our hearts to be taught what God meant. God spoke in other places other than Ezek. 18 on this. Look at the cross references. There is Deut 24:16...2 Kings 14:6...Jer. 31:30. Why not try to understand what is being said? Is it speaking of Jacob and Ephraim in Jer. 31? Just questions I have.
Hey James, Are you trying to get some light on Romans 5 by looking at the OT? It's better to get light on Jer 31 by looking at the NT.
One of my all time favourite verses is in Jer 31, and I relate it to myself - absolutely I do.
Jeremiah 31:3 KJV (3)Â The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
1 John 3:1 KJV (1)Â Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Romans 8:30 KJV (30)Â Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Keeping to my original point, I believe we should not ignore places in Scripture that "appear" to contradict our understanding. Instead we should open our hearts to be taught what God meant. God spoke in other places other than Ezek. 18 on this. Look at the cross references.
There is Deut 24:16...2 Kings 14:6...Jer. 31:30.
Why not try to understand what is being said? Is it speaking of Jacob and Ephraim in Jer. 31?
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. prove too much? What I hear is... We stop there because it goes against our doctrine.
Blessings to you bro, St James.
Shall we get our doctrine of salvation from this passage, Eze 18?
Ezekiel 18:25-27 KJV (25)Â Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? (26)Â When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. (27)Â Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
The next thing is to believe in Catholic priests and the last rights.
James, the apostles talk of no such thing in the NT. Righteousness is by faith only, not of works.
Of course it would "prove too much" to take the verse in question as read. As he says, what about the imputation of our sins to Jesus the Christ? What about the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us? These are the exceptions. So too is the imputation of Adam's sin to us.
Saint John of Wales, I understand the purpose of the author was to give the 3 "positions" he was aware that some hold to. I know that the 30 minutes I gave to reading the article and the related scripture produced some questions which the author could have missed unintentionally or sidestepped due to difficulty. The author, in my opinion, could have gone further into the text, but that would have obviously created more questions to address which are not easy. Ezekiel 18, as I see it, is presented as an isolated text which we should not give weight to but instead follow the advice of "Yet we dare not make it an absolute principle. If we do, then the text of Ezekiel would prove too much."
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
prove too much? What I hear is... We stop there because it goes against our doctrine.
There is no mention of Jer. 31:29. The very same proverb. No where else is the proverb mentioned in Scripture. Why not glean from both Jer. 31 and Ezek. 18 with an open mind to understand what God has said?
James Thomas wrote: A few observations... Instead of dealing with the text we are to not give weight to this verse because our understanding seems to be contrary to it?
St James, I really think you are being unfair to the author, who upholds the text as I read it. Note,
"The principle of Ezekiel allows for two exceptions: the Cross, and the Fall. Somehow we donâ€™t mind the exception of the Cross. It is the Fall that rankles us. We donâ€™t mind having our guilt transferred to Jesus or having his righteousness transferred to us; it is having the guilt of Adam transferred to us that makes us howl. We argue that if the guilt of Adam had never been transmitted to us then the work of Jesus would never have been necessary."
The fallen nature within us often says, "T'aint fair!"
Which, being interpreted, equates to, "God is not good."
Also, those who grumble against having Adam's sin imputed to them are effectively saying, "If I had been there instead of Adam, I would not have sinned like he did."
But Adam, in his first estate, was a perfect man, sinless. God made him like that.
James Thomas wrote: ... So what then do we do with a portion that appears to contradict in another place of Scripture? ... This one in Ezekiel .. Ezek 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:
The instances John UK mentioned demonstrate cases of children suffering, not for personal guilt, but suffering the *consequences* of sin. Any of us is exposed to such risk daily. Say one can be killed /injured as a result of the actions of an irresponsible drunken driver. This should bring a serious warning for parents as leaders in the family. Children can suffer the consequences of the parents bad acquired habits, tendencies, philosophies, choices or customs. For instance, a blunt example of this could be a child born with drug-dependancy addiction due to the mother's drug consumption during her pregnancy, or say Achan's children dying with him as being part of a greedy setting.
Yet the verse in Ezekiel deals not with the consequences of sin, but with personal guilt, say personal accountability for each individual's sin.
However, suffering because of the consequences of sin, does not mean the individual will be individually excused, or justified by the circumstantial setting
Great blog! I had a look around this excellent resource.
"First, is the doctrine of Pelagianism. According to this view the only reason people die is that they themselves personally sin. It is true, of course, that we die because we sin. But this view argues that the only link or connection between Adamâ€™s sin and us is that he set a bad example, which we have unwisely followed. We each individually reenact Adamâ€™s transgression in our own experience. As for Paulâ€™s statement in Romans 5:12, Pelagius insisted that we sinned in Adam only in the sense that we imitated his decision to rebel against God. Consequently, all men come into being in the exact condition as Adamâ€™s before the fall. Pelagius believed each soul is created immediately by God and thus cannot come into the world contaminated or corrupted by the sin of Adam."
This Pelagius, him heap bad heretic.
As the article says, if you follow him in regard to original sin, you end up having to find your own righteousness.
In other words, he had NO GOSPEL at all. There is neither imputation of sin, nor of righteousness.
I don't have time to contribute right now, but I found this article was helpful as it breaks down Romans 5:12 meaning down, in how that all works with pre fall teaching, post fall teachings, Biblically John from ATL, stance doesn't hold its weight under the testing & light of scriptures, & I don't say that to be mean or anything along those type of lines either. I share in love for the importance of Gods truth, through His holy word amen.
I believe we are all sinners, but not all people are guilty of sins due to ignorance. Such as a baby or mentally handicapped. A normal 5 year old would understand that stealing is wrong because of the conscience God has given them, if for nothing else.
Thanks for the link on this. Here are a few quotes from it.
"Ezekiel was not giving a discourse on the fall of Adam. The Fall is not in view here. Rather, Ezekiel is addressing the commonplace excuse that men use for their sins. They try to blame someone else for their own misdeeds. That human activity has gone on since the Fall, but that is about all this passage has to do with the Fall."
"Yet we dare not make it an absolute principle. If we do, then the text of Ezekiel would prove too much."
************** A few observations...
Instead of dealing with the text we are to not give weight to this verse because our understanding seems to be contrary to it?
Then there is the generalized exposition of the text given as "Ezekiel is addressing the commonplace excuse that men use for their sins?"
I have no PHD...but I do see in Ezek 18:2 , the text is addressing a proverb, not the commonplace excuse that men use for their sin. I see that the very same proverb in Ezek 18 is addressed in Jer. 31:29-30 as well.
Jer. 31:29 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
After reading Jeremiah 31, perhaps the Father being spoken of is Jacob and the son being referenced is Ephraim.