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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  10/18/2019
Choice News TUESDAY, MAR 3, 2015  |  168 comments  |  1 commentary
Franklin Graham: New Obama danger for Christians

Globally known evangelist Franklin Graham says President Obama is so sympathetic to those of the Muslim faith, he’s actually endangering Jews and Christians, opening the doors for them to be persecuted inside the United States.

“We’re going to see persecution in this country because our president is very sympathetic to Islam and the reason I say that … is because his father was a Muslim, gave him a Muslim name, Barack Hussein Obama,” Graham said, during an interview on “The 700 Club” on CBN.

“His mother married another Muslim man, they moved to Indonesia, he went to Indonesian schools. So, growing up, his frame of reference and his influence as a young man, was Islam. It wasn’t Christianity, it was Islam.” ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 168 user comment(s)
News Item3/15/15 10:38 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Brother John UK, I have no desire to be a hindrance in this discussion. Brother Lurker is a wise student of the Word from whom we can all learn. My apologies for being an interruption in your discourse, so that we can all learn and that I don't deter the good brother from commenting I am bowing out of any further comments on this thread. God bless
My dear brother, I considered your post as most helpful, biblical, and perfectly sound. So please, no need to apologise for your addition, rather it was most welcome. I don't know why Bro Lurker was so short with you, but it was uncalled for, in my opinion.

I am standing my ground in saying that the atonement and its extent is not an easy one to evaluate, which is why some plump for limited and others unlimited, as a study of great theologians shows.

Personally, I believe that Christ's work was specifically on behalf of his sheep, that it was his purpose to save some definitely, rather than make all saveable. Which is why I love Isaiah's messianic prophecy, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and be satisfied".

168

News Item3/15/15 9:30 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Brother John UK, I have no desire to be a hindrance in this discussion. Brother Lurker is a wise student of the Word from whom we can all learn. My apologies for being an interruption in your discourse, so that we can all learn and that I don't deter the good brother from commenting I am bowing out of any further comments on this thread. God bless
167

News Item3/15/15 8:51 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Find all comments by Michael Hranek
Good word my brother,
If we so complicate things that it takes a college degree for someone to begn to understand what we are talking about
how can that be any fulfillment or a real obedience to 2 Tim 2:15

John UK wrote:
Bro, with respect, I think it far simpler
166

News Item3/15/15 5:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
So if that be the case, why wouldn't we look to Amos to gain some insight of how to interpret what Paul wrote? In the case of Rom 3:23, we can subjectively say "all" means whatever we want it to mean or we can make our appeal to Amos and let God tell us what He intended it to mean.
Bro, with respect, I think it far simpler.

Romans 3:19-23 KJV
(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..

If we want to accept v22 as our portion, that we might be justified and made right with God through faith in Jesus Christ, having the righteousness of God imputed to us and our sins forgiven, then the following verse is also true of us, "all have sinned".

165

News Item3/15/15 4:55 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Find all comments by Michael Hranek
Since "hermeneutics" has come up
As a suggestion let me recommend

[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=723101624236]]]How to Read The Book: Thoughts & Counsels on[/URL] Better Bible Reading

as helpful

AND let me make a comment while I am at it.

While there are indeed deep Truths to be learned in Scripture, I do not believe these Truths are somekind of speciatl gnostic revelations reserved for a privileged elite priesthood of indoctrinated scholars completely beyond the minds of common people

It is Imho that God has spoken to us, all of us in words we have the right to understand and are capable by His grace and the ministry of the Holy Spirit of understanding; that in an honest humble straight forward literal (literal where literal and figurative where figurative) reading of the Bible in the immediate context and the flow of the entire context of God's word, we will hear what God Himself is speaking to us, His saying what He means and meaning what He says.

In this kind of reading finding God Himself being the author of our faith, the faith He honors and richly rewards,
having a real 2 Tim 2:15 exegesis

Further God honoring exegesis will only deepen such straight forward Truths NOT spiritualize them away

164

News Item3/15/15 2:44 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Brother Lurker, the apostle James quotes from Amos to show that God would call the Gentiles into His fold, something the Jews would have trouble grasping (see Acts 10:45; 11:3,17,18).
Amos was a prophet to Israelites who lived in his day. (see Amos 1:1) God said (Amos 9:8) His eyes were on the sinful kingdom (the house of Jacob) He would sift Israel (v9) that they may possess the remnant of Edom and of the Gentiles which are called by My name. He then states that the plowman shall over take the reaper, the treader of grapes the sower of seed and the children of Israel shall build the waste cities and inhabit them.
Dear brother will you please show how any of that happened in the days of Paul.
Can't do it. Your mind is closed by the hermeneutics of men.

But thanks for reminding me why I quit posting a few months ago.

163

News Item3/15/15 1:01 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Brother Lurker, the apostle James quotes from Amos to show that God would call the Gentiles into His fold, something the Jews would have trouble grasping (see Acts 10:45; 11:3,17,18).

Amos was a prophet to Israelites who lived in his day. (see Amos 1:1) God said (Amos 9:8) His eyes were on the sinful kingdom (the house of Jacob) He would sift Israel (v9) that they may possess the remnant of Edom and of the Gentiles which are called by My name. He then states that the plowman shall over take the reaper, the treader of grapes the sower of seed and the children of Israel shall build the waste cities and inhabit them.

Dear brother will you please show how any of that happened in the days of Paul. The chapter ends with the words they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them. The Israelites were scattered from their land in Paul's day. Also, please be so kind as to define the tabernacle of David that was repaired from ruins

What does Paul seems to be saying in Romans 3? If we look at verse 9 both Jews and Gentiles under sin, (v19) the whole world become guilty before God. (v22) no difference why because all (Jew and Gentile, the whole of mankind-see chapter 1 and quoted Psalms in chapter 3) have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

162

News Item3/14/15 11:28 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
But you know I'm not at all up on relating prophecies from the OT to the NT, and it would take me years to grapple with such. However, if you can lay it out in simple enough terms, maybe you will be able to at least show me what it is you are saying.
The book of Amos (among others) is contextually relevant to the letter to the Romans for at least 2 very good reasons: 1) Acts 15:15-17 quotes Amos 9:11 and points to the time God took His Kingdom away from the Jews and turned to the Gentiles in mercy. 2) Paul died (Rom 7:9) when the commandment came which ties back to Amos 9:10. These 2 facts make it abundantly clear that the prophecies in Amos all find their fulfillment during the time Paul wrote to the Romans.

So if that be the case, why wouldn't we look to Amos to gain some insight of how to interpret what Paul wrote? In the case of Rom 3:23, we can subjectively say "all" means whatever we want it to mean or we can make our appeal to Amos and let God tell us what He intended it to mean.

In the case of bro. Mike's comment: "Rom 5:15 "many" must mean all here, for all have sinned and all be dead." Not so... All Israel sinned but not all of Israel are Israel. The gift abounded to Jacob, not Esau, through God's purpose of election.

161

News Item3/14/15 5:32 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Gotta go for a while but.....
All Israel? What saith the scripture in context?
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Jacob = wheat, Esau = tares.
Re: Rom 3:23. Doesn't matter what you or I think it means....... If its subjectively interpreted in its immediate context, there will never be agreement nor will God's intended meaning be revealed. Its meaning can only be rightly discerned by bringing the light of the relevant prophets onto it..... in this case the book of Amos. Amos's prophecy and the letter to the Romans are linked together by timeline of fulfillment and they must be interpreted together.
Bro, I think if you interpreted the whole chapter 3 of Romans, noting why it was that Paul was writing it, I don't think there'd be any problem or differences between any of us.

But you know I'm not at all up on relating prophecies from the OT to the NT, and it would take me years to grapple with such. However, if you can lay it out in simple enough terms, maybe you will be able to at least show me what it is you are saying. Thanks brother.

160

News Item3/14/15 4:44 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Bro Lurker,
Wow!
Before I think any further, can you elucidate what you mean by "all Israel". Romans 3 Paul seems to be saying that by the law, all men, Jews and Gentiles alike, have sinned and come short, and that there are none righteous, not one. Are you saying this is not right?
Gotta go for a while but.....

All Israel? What saith the scripture in context?

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob = wheat, Esau = tares.

Re: Rom 3:23. Doesn't matter what you or I think it means....... If its subjectively interpreted in its immediate context, there will never be agreement nor will God's intended meaning be revealed. Its meaning can only be rightly discerned by bringing the light of the relevant prophets onto it..... in this case the book of Amos. Amos's prophecy and the letter to the Romans are linked together by timeline of fulfillment and they must be interpreted together.

159

News Item3/14/15 4:11 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
No paradoxes, bro. Just not enough light being shown on the subject. I hate to see brothers floundering for lack of light.
Amo 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
This is who Paul was talking about when he wrote "All have sinned". Who, then, is "all" in Romans 3:23? In God's words "all the sinners of **my people**" aka all Israel.
Bro Lurker,

Wow!

Before I think any further, can you elucidate what you mean by "all Israel". Romans 3 Paul seems to be saying that by the law, all men, Jews and Gentiles alike, have sinned and come short, and that there are none righteous, not one. Are you saying this is not right?

158

News Item3/14/15 3:50 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Bro Mike, I agree with what you say, and there is no gainsaying it. There appears to be seeming paradoxes concerning the issue, and most folks seem to come down on one side or the other.
No paradoxes, bro. Just not enough light being shown on the subject. I hate to see brothers floundering for lack of light.

Amo 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

This is who Paul was talking about when he wrote "All have sinned". Who, then, is "all" in Romans 3:23? In God's words "all the sinners of **my people**" aka all Israel.

Now take this back to Mark 14:24...... Who are the "many"? The remnant of Israel who always belonged to the Father and given to the Son of which He was to lose none? Yes. Not all of Israel is Israel.

Need a means to tie Amos 9:10 to the time of Paul's letter to the Romans?

Amo 9:11 **In that day** will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Compare that to Acts 15:15-17 in context and the timeline is established.

Take this understanding to other texts which seem to teach universal atonement and they will become clear.

157

News Item3/14/15 3:21 PM
Olaf Roune  Find all comments by Olaf Roune
Franklin obviously doesn't know Christian teaching such as the WCF.

WCF 3/1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c
a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b
a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

156

News Item3/14/15 1:28 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
chuckle wrote:
Ha Ha John.
That's a good one coming from you.
Wow, so you CAN smile.

Stupid comment, but at least you're smiling, which is far better than being a miserable hyperCalvinist.

155

News Item3/14/15 1:20 PM
chuckle  Find all comments by chuckle
John UK wrote:
Are you really a closet Arminian?
Ha Ha John.
That's a good one coming from you.
154

News Item3/14/15 1:10 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Well, there you go, sc. Frank grumbles about no-one responding to his post, and then when I immediately respond, he just ignores it and prefers to have a little chat with you.

Frank, why are you talking out of both sides of your mouth? Are you really a closet Arminian? Is my response to your question so difficult that you have to suddenly take off and hope I forget ever asking the question?

153

News Item3/14/15 1:04 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
s c wrote:
Again Frank,no one specifically addresses what is posted. They would rather wax poetic. "Eloquence" in speech and reminding others how "loving" one is often times only goes so far when it dodges the subject at hand.
You would be more popular if you came across as some needy,easily offended,emotionally high strung woman.
But that just means that you must be doing something right just the way you are.
And I know that you do it in meekness...not trying to embarrass you.Brothers like you are very much appreciated.
Okay sister let me say something that might be confusing, but since I am an old man I can get away with this. I love all the brethren as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I actually "like" you as well. I remember one time pondering if there were some God liked more than others and that is why the thought stuck in my head I guess. You are truly a blessing to me and that isn't because we normally agree; it is the way you approach interaction and truth.

Gotta go watch my wife play tennis. If she wins, we have to go out to dinner.

Thanks sister. I really a kick out of the needy, easily offended emotionally high strung woman comment.

152

News Item3/14/15 12:53 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
So, what some are saying is my scriptures and argument are negated by Mark 14:24, even though my scriptures were never discussed. Would that be an example of eisegesis? I tried to use only what the Holy Spirit said with little commentary. But I will say this; Christ could have easily been only referring to His elect in Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is **shed for many**.
I have never said the atonement was efficacious for all.
Pilgrim, I have used many times the selfsame scriptures which you have brought out, and we know that we are quoting the word of God.

However, if you take those scriptures just as they are, without looking at the context of the whole Bible, you will run into the following problem, which Arminians have no problem with:

If the redeeming blood has purchased all men (bought them), then it logically follows that Christ can redeem Mr X but still he will perish in hell because of something lacking in himself. In other words, Mr X has to do certain things (like never denying Christ - as Peter did) or he will perish. This is assuredly a works-based "salvation", which other scriptures deny.

151

News Item3/14/15 12:52 PM
s c | Oh  Find all comments by s c
Again Frank,no one specifically addresses what is posted. They would rather wax poetic. "Eloquence" in speech and reminding others how "loving" one is often times only goes so far when it dodges the subject at hand.
You would be more popular if you came across as some needy,easily offended,emotionally high strung woman.
But that just means that you must be doing something right just the way you are.
And I know that you do it in meekness...not trying to embarrass you.Brothers like you are very much appreciated.
150

News Item3/14/15 12:51 PM
Biggleswaite  Find all comments by Biggleswaite
Mike wrote:
We see "many" must mean all here
Aaahhh Mike the good ole Arminian soft shoe shuffle!!

Quote;
"But observe, that a larger number (plures) are not here contrasted with many (multis,) for he speaks not of the number of men: but as the sin of Adam has destroyed many, he draws this conclusion, -- that the righteousness of Christ will be no less efficacious to save many." John Calvin.

Remember Mike the save yourself philosophy always looks for the human element to undermine the divine.

Also Christ Jesus is more powerful than Adam ever was in both action and result.

As for the numbers game show that is left to misguided people such as Franklin Graham and his Daddy who want to increase what was chosen before the foundation of the world.

149
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