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FRONT PAGE  |  7/18/2019
FRIDAY, JUN 1, 2012  |  490 comments
Baptist statement on Calvinism draws approval, criticism

A group of current and former Southern Baptist leaders has signed a statement affirming what they call the "traditional Southern Baptist" understanding of the doctrine of salvation, with the goal of drawing a distinction with the beliefs of "New Calvinism."

The document further asserts that the "vast majority of Southern Baptists are not Calvinists and that they do not want Calvinism to become the standard view in Southern Baptist life."

"We believe it is time to move beyond Calvinism as a reference point for Baptist soteriology," the statement reads. Soteriology is the study of the doctrine of salvation. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 490 user comment(s)
News Item6/21/12 10:56 PM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
Heidelberg wrote:
1. Purgatory?? Are you Roman Catholic?
2. Christ bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race. Isa. 53:4,5; I Tim.2:6; 1Pet.2:24; 3:18.
3. Of course God judges the sin of all mankind, thats what original sin, its imputation into Adam's progeny and the Crucifiction is all about. How else would God work out that we require saving? And do something about it.
4. I guess the problem here is that your entire theology comes from a different source doctrine. You seem to believe in a sinless mankind??? The Arminian solution seems to be not "Free Will" - But freedom from sin!!!
1. No, not Catholic. Misread a word, sorry.
2. Those are good verses to prove that Jesus bore our sins in the flesh. However, they don't say anything about Jesus bore in His soul the wrath of God.
3. God judges the sins of all mankind except those who have had their sins forgiven.
4. I use the Holy Bible as my source, what's yours? You seem like the type to only believe Calvinist are saved. I am no Arminian, but I do believe Christians are no longer slaves to sin, the Son has set them free.
490

News Item6/21/12 5:21 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
Okay, I have a better understanding of what you mean by Jesus suffering eternal death now. However, that isn't taught anywhere in scripture and I have to wonder if even Calvin taught that (not sure). If that was the case, would you rather suffer eternal death for a half a day or for eternity? Which suffering is worst?
John, your irreverence towards the suffering of God's Son means that I will no longer cast pearls before swine. I hope that brings you up with a jolt, and that if anyone else seeks to help you discover the truth, and I hope they do, you will bear it in mind that hell for any sinner is devatatingly awful, as it was also even more so for our dear Redeemer and Saviour. I wish you well with your life, but until you start taking spiritual things seriously, and reverence God's Son, you will progress no further.
489

News Item6/21/12 5:10 PM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
John UK wrote:
Ah, I now twig why you are having a dilemma with what I am saying. You imagine that when I say our Lord Jesus suffered an eternal punishment, you think I mean he is still there, still suffering for our sins.
But I don't say that he "suffers" an eternal punishment, but that he "suffered" an eternal punishment. It is a suffering that is past, completed, finished.
Please do not imagine that God cannot stop the sun in its tracks for an hour, or create mature wine from water, or suffer eternal hell in the space of a few hours. He not only can do it, but he HAS done it.
The only alternative option you are confronted with, is that sinners will not have to spend eternity in conscious torment in a lake of fire; merely they will die and be no more. And this is what many of the cults believe.
Punishment fits the crime, and the price is the same whoever pays it.
Okay, I have a better understanding of what you mean by Jesus suffering eternal death now. However, that isn't taught anywhere in scripture and I have to wonder if even Calvin taught that (not sure). If that was the case, would you rather suffer eternal death for a half a day or for eternity? Which suffering is worst?
488

News Item6/21/12 4:50 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
1. Really?! Those are not facts? Jesus didn't suffer eternal death, "It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God" (Rms 8:34). Jesus didn't suffer eternal damnation because God "will not leave my soul in Sheol" (Ps 16:10).
2. Are you still going to assure me that is not true considering my first point?
Ah, I now twig why you are having a dilemma with what I am saying. You imagine that when I say our Lord Jesus suffered an eternal punishment, you think I mean he is still there, still suffering for our sins.

But I don't say that he "suffers" an eternal punishment, but that he "suffered" an eternal punishment. It is a suffering that is past, completed, finished.

Please do not imagine that God cannot stop the sun in its tracks for an hour, or create mature wine from water, or suffer eternal hell in the space of a few hours. He not only can do it, but he HAS done it.

The only alternative option you are confronted with, is that sinners will not have to spend eternity in conscious torment in a lake of fire; merely they will die and be no more. And this is what many of the cults believe.

Punishment fits the crime, and the price is the same whoever pays it.

487

News Item6/21/12 4:01 PM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
John UK wrote:
1. It is not honest to refer to something as a fact, when in truth it is not. If our Lord Jesus Christ did not take your place, suffering the punishment and wrath of God for all of your sins, and propitiated that wrath by bearing it in his own body on the tree, then you still have sins to pay for, and that, for all eternity.
2. Yes I do, except that also is not true. The best thing for you to do, John, is to begin meditating on the sufferings of the Saviour. If the Lord assists you, it will make you weep.
1. Really?! Those are not facts? Jesus didn't suffer eternal death, "It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God" (Rms 8:34). Jesus didn't suffer eternal damnation because God "will not leave my soul in Sheol" (Ps 16:10).
2. Are you still going to assure me that is not true considering my first point?
486

News Item6/21/12 10:21 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
1. However, when I look at the fact that He didn't suffer eternal death and damnation like sinners will, then I want to be honest and say so. 2. Don't you consider eternal damnation to be of greater suffering than a few hours in Hades?
1. It is not honest to refer to something as a fact, when in truth it is not. If our Lord Jesus Christ did not take your place, suffering the punishment and wrath of God for all of your sins, and propitiated that wrath by bearing it in his own body on the tree, then you still have sins to pay for, and that, for all eternity.

2. Yes I do, except that also is not true. The best thing for you to do, John, is to begin meditating on the sufferings of the Saviour. If the Lord assists you, it will make you weep.

485

News Item6/21/12 9:45 AM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
John UK wrote:
So you do believe sinners suffer more for their sins than Jesus did when he paid the redemption price.
Being seperated from the Father may have been a harder burden for Jesus to bare than us. However, when I look at the fact that He didn't suffer eternal death and damnation like sinners will, then I want to be honest and say so. Don't you consider eternal damnation to be of greater suffering than a few hours in Hades?
484

News Item6/21/12 7:49 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
Jesus suffered physical and spiritual death like sinners do, but He didn't suffer eternal death and Hell like sinners do.
So you do believe sinners suffer more for their sins than Jesus did when he paid the redemption price.
483

News Item6/21/12 7:41 AM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
John UK wrote:
So you do believe sinners suffer more for their sins than Jesus did when he paid the redemption price.
As for sinless:
1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
and
Hebrews 7:26-27 KJV
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Jesus suffered physical and spiritual death like sinners do, but He didn't suffer eternal death and Hell like sinners do.
I only believe Christians are sinless because of the righteousness of Christ in them. I know they have and do sin, but those are all forgiven.
482

News Item6/21/12 7:26 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
I believe a Christian has their sins erased, obliterated, deleted, whipped out, forgiven, forgotten, and washed away. There is no need for justice where there is no sins. The sins were forgiven because of Christ work on the cross, but how did He suffer? He died physically and spiritually like we do, buy He didn't suffer eternal death like sinners do. You seem to believe in the spotted Lamb of God, whereas I believe in the spotless Lamb of God.
So you do believe sinners suffer more for their sins than Jesus did when he paid the redemption price.

As for sinless:

1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

and

Hebrews 7:26-27 KJV
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

481

News Item6/21/12 7:08 AM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
John UK
Now do you think the sinner would pay a greater price for his sins than the redeemer substitute? Can the Lord Jesus pay a lesser price and still forgive you?
If Jesus did not pay the full amount, you are yet in your sins, and will have to pay yourself. Now which would you prefer?
I believe a Christian has their sins erased, obliterated, deleted, whipped out, forgiven, forgotten, and washed away. There is no need for justice where there is no sins. The sins were forgiven because of Christ work on the cross, but how did He suffer? He died physically and spiritually like we do, buy He didn't suffer eternal death like sinners do. You seem to believe in the spotted Lamb of God, whereas I believe in the spotless Lamb of God. You know if sin was found in Him, then He would have been in the same boat as all sinners are?
480

News Item6/21/12 6:32 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
God punishes sins.
I have sinned.
No one because Jesus died so my sins are forgiven.
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. If Jesus died FOR your sins, then there is no more punishment for your sins. And for God to forgive you, and remain just, he must have punished your sins in his only Son, because God cannot just waive justice.

John, you think too much in human terms. If you forgive me for something, you can do that without demanding justice for a wrong committed. But God's way of forgiveness still demands that justice is done and seen to be done. This is where the doctrine of penal substitution came from, as understood from scripture. Every last sin, no matter how small or large, even if it be only a thought, WILL have its punishment - either at the cross, or at the sinner's own hand.

Now do you think the sinner would pay a greater price for his sins than the redeemer substitute? Can the Lord Jesus pay a lesser price and still forgive you?

If Jesus did not pay the full amount, you are yet in your sins, and will have to pay yourself. Now which would you prefer?

479

News Item6/21/12 6:04 AM
John for Jesus  Find all comments by John for Jesus
John UK wrote:
John, do you believe God punishes sin?
Have you sinned?
Who will be punished for your sin?
God punishes sins.
I have sinned.
No one because Jesus died so my sins are forgiven.
478

News Item6/21/12 5:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
How do you believe Jesus was punished? He suffered physical death and spiritual death, but He didn't suffer eternal death because He was innocent of guilt. His body didn't see decay because He was the spotless Lamb of God.
John, do you believe God punishes sin?

Have you sinned?

Who will be punished for your sin?

477

News Item6/20/12 9:15 PM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
thomas wrote:
The writers of that catechism tended to delay fully answering each and every point to later questions and answers.
Q12: Since, according to God's righteous judgment we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how can we escape this punishment and be again received into favour?
A: God demands that His justice be satisfied. [1] Therefore full payment must be made either by ourselves or by another. [2]
[1] Ex 20:5, 23:7; Rom 2:1-11
[2] Is 53:11; Rom 8:3,4
So, yes, God does punish all sin. Either directly to the unconverted or vicariously through Christ.
How do you believe Jesus was punished? He suffered physical death and spiritual death, but He didn't suffer eternal death because He was innocent of guilt. His body didn't see decay because He was the spotless Lamb of God.
476

News Item6/20/12 3:36 PM
Heidelberg  Find all comments by Heidelberg
John for Jesus wrote:
I'm not a big fan of this confession because it seems poorly written to say Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all mankind and then here that God will judge the sins of all mankind, which would seem to me to cause all to go to the Lake of Fire. I also have a red flag up about temporally being punished. Could mean purgatory.
Purgatory?? Are you Roman Catholic?

Christ bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race. Isa. 53:4,5; I Tim.2:6; 1Pet.2:24; 3:18.

Of course God judges the sin of all mankind, thats what original sin, its imputation into Adam's progeny and the Crucifiction is all about. How else would God work out that we require saving? And do something about it.

I guess the problem here is that your entire theology comes from a different source doctrine. You seem to believe in a sinless mankind??? The Arminian solution seems to be not "Free Will" - But freedom from sin!!!

475

News Item6/20/12 3:13 PM
thomas | south dakota  Find all comments by thomas
John for Jesus wrote:
I'm not a big fan of this confession because it seems poorly written to say Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all mankind and then here that God will judge the sins of all mankind, which would seem to me to cause all to go to the Lake of Fire. I also have a red flag up about temporally being punished. Could mean purgatory.
The writers of that catechism tended to delay fully answering each and every point to later questions and answers.

Q12: Since, according to God's righteous judgment we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how can we escape this punishment and be again received into favour?

A: God demands that His justice be satisfied. [1] Therefore full payment must be made either by ourselves or by another. [2]

[1] Ex 20:5, 23:7; Rom 2:1-11
[2] Is 53:11; Rom 8:3,4

So, yes, God does punish all sin. Either directly to the unconverted or vicariously through Christ.

474

News Item6/20/12 3:03 PM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
Heidelberg wrote:
That belongs to another question.
Question 10. Will God suffer such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?
Answer: By no means; but is terribly displeased (a) with our original as well as actual sins; and will punish them in his just judgment temporally and eternally, (b) as he has declared, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law, to do them." (c)
Question 11. Is not God then also merciful?
Answer: God is indeed merciful, (a) but also just; (b) therefore his justice requires, that sin which is committed against the most high majesty of God, be also punished with extreme, that is, with everlasting punishment of body and soul.
Heidelberg Confession.
I'm not a big fan of this confession because it seems poorly written to say Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all mankind and then here that God will judge the sins of all mankind, which would seem to me to cause all to go to the Lake of Fire. I also have a red flag up about temporally being punished. Could mean purgatory.
473

News Item6/20/12 2:51 PM
Heidelberg  Find all comments by Heidelberg
John for Jesus wrote:
If you believe Jesus sustained the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind, do you believe all mankind is saved?
That belongs to another question.

Question 10. Will God suffer such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?

Answer: By no means; but is terribly displeased (a) with our original as well as actual sins; and will punish them in his just judgment temporally and eternally, (b) as he has declared, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law, to do them." (c)

Question 11. Is not God then also merciful?

Answer: God is indeed merciful, (a) but also just; (b) therefore his justice requires, that sin which is committed against the most high majesty of God, be also punished with extreme, that is, with everlasting punishment of body and soul.

Heidelberg Confession.

472

News Item6/20/12 1:57 PM
John for Jesus | usa  Find all comments by John for Jesus
Heidelberg wrote:
Question 37. What dost thou understand by the words, "He suffered"?
Answer: That he, all the time that he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, sustained in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind: (a) that so by his passion, as the only propitiatory sacrifice, (b) he might redeem our body and soul from everlasting damnation, (c) and obtain for us the favour of God, righteousness and eternal life. (d)
[a] Is. 53:4; I Tim. 2:6; I Pet. 2:24; 3:18. [b] Is. 53:10,12 Rom. 3:25; I Cor. 5:7; Eph. 5:2; Heb. 10:14; I John 2:2; 4:10. [c] Rom. 8:1-4; Gal. 3:13; Col. 1:13; Heb. 9:12; I Pet 1:18, 19. [d] John 3:16; Rom. 3:24-26; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 9:15.
Heidelberg Confession.
If you believe Jesus sustained the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind, do you believe all mankind is saved?
471
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